Patch 25.S1.2 (15.2) Rundown | League of Legends

[@NotQuartz]

Welp glad we aren’t the only ones not exactly satisfied with the new patch naming system

[@slizzee]

I was thinking the exact same thing! It makes no sense to start calling it 'seasons' when that term has been a core part of League's terminology since the very beginning. On top of that, why complicate things further by changing the naming system for patches as well? It's just unnecessary and confusing.

[@danielszekeres8003]

@@slizzee naming it 25.1.2 would be fine.

[@slizzee]

@@danielszekeres8003 I agree but I would prefer 15 over 25

[@yGKeKe]

Honestly...whoever decided that the DOMINATION tree, which is obviously a burst damage oriented tree, should have SUPPORT runes on an entire row...probably not the brightest bulb.

[@tulisotilas]

Please please go up to the boss and demand to stick by 15.2. WTF is 25.S1.2, sounds like a puzzle rather than historic information about the game version.

[@rednecktash]

just remember correlation doesn't mean causality. the ruinous vs voracious atakan winrates could just be due to the snowball effect taking place in large kill vs small kill games and being more snowbally outside of the atakan buff itself.

[@Sinzari]

True, but the GA effect felt disgustingly broken subjectively too

[@anotherpolo1143]

Youre entirely correct generally but the eyeball test here is very telling. The GA is giga op. As to a theoretical slower game being more snowbally, youd have to do some kind of analysis on the effects of low kill games on progressing the win condition vs high kill games. Very hard to determine why that would be the case, imo. But yeah could be the case like you said

[@thomasbenishek7927]

That’s why we talked about sim rate gain. If you have 75% win rate (this has to be an estimate although it is generally accurate) then got the atakahn how much did your win rate increase.

[@laikhoabang]

​@@anotherpolo1143 I mean theoretically it's not that great, it allows for more aggressive play but no increase to stats and you revive back at the fountain so it doesn't do much in determining the team that just wins the team fight like baron or elder. It would be the same result as or even less dire than akshan getting a penta kill. If you really dislike the ga, it's probably possible to stall things out, it lasts less than a baron buff, they can't really siege and since it's a less active game, chances are they're not that ahead anyways. ( If they're that ahead, wouldn't it be easier just to dominate completely and perma snow ball ? And they buff is more or less useless to them since they can just wipe the whole team without much casualties )

[@retronymph]

He knows that, which is why they're giving more gold to the team that's probably behind (since they lost atakhan) so that they have more of a chance to come back

[@Junkraj]

but can we changes the names lmaoo, it's such a mouthful

[@OneSlavBoi]

you can just say season 1 patch 2

[@syiniydethepotatoe9486]

Yeah its a mouthful but it makes more sense

[@glenndiddy]

@@OneSlavBoi Im just calling it 15.2 because that's the shortest and most understandable

[@fengariii]

"Your feelings matter more than what is real." The theme of this millennium

[@theparagonal]

@fengarii That's... Just how games work. They aren't real. They're for your entertainment. If every game wanted to bring you a gritty reality, it would be a slog, and frankly boring. I get you're doing a culture war thing, but we're begging you to just stop posting.

[@CoC4Life-rs5qd]

The whole ADC section makes my skin crawl. The reeason ADC feels bad is not just because tanks are out of control in terms of damage absorption. They feel weak because tanks also deal more damage than them. The mixture of sustain, damage and tank feels oppressive. Like when a KSante can hold himself in the midst of 3 enemy champion and kill them is just stupid. That shouldn´t exist in the game. And the only way to self peel has been removed from the game in the form of Stormraizor and Galeforce. Now an ADC can just sit back and beg to god that someone peels for them which hint -> most of the times it doesnt happen.

[@zyad48]

"The combat is the slowest it has ever been in the recorded history of League of Legends" "There is no war in Ba Sing Se"

[@Amine-z5d]

You cant take away the dmg from tanks , they are already barely played in high mmr aside from skarner in jg and ksante top that are litteraly the only 2 tanks played. If you nerf tanks dmg they will never be able to lane into bruisers ( blinding tanks is already insanely hard ). I agree tho that some tanks items need nerfs ( tabis and randuins mostly )

[@zyad48]

@ Tanks shouldn't be allowed to get that durable while not sacrificing damage. On the flip side, damage champions shouldn't be able to get durability from their damage stats. Everyone should have to itemize durability to be durable, everyone should have to buy damage to do damage. The issues with incredibly high damage in this game are a _result_ of tanks being too Goddamn hard to kill for how much damage they can dish out in single combat while being nigh unkillable. If you want to get that durable, fine, but you should HAVE to forgo late game damage entirely to be that beefy. If they want a different way for tanks to scale, idk, maybe give them things that increase your CC duration, tenacity reduction, that sort of thing. Making the entire game about burst damage _just_ exacerbates the issue of class boundaries. Why should I give a shit about playing "fighters" when K'sante is a fucking menace and gets to be WAY more durable without sacrificing his damage? It's JUST nonsense.

[@CoC4Life-rs5qd]

@@Amine-z5dit’s not about tanks in particular. Bruisers build the same items that make them equally oppressive. Think of Galio, Renekton, Darius and such. It’s the items that are overpowered aF.

[@itsnottimmlol]

​@@zyad48 I agree that tank/bruiser damage needs to be adjusted down, but not completely removed. I can't remember who said it but League has had metas where tank items did basically no damage for more tankiness, but it made tanks basically useless because tanks couldn't split or duel or peel effectively without absolutely broken CC abilities, making champs that just killed people being almost always better than playing a tank. That being said champ like Tahm K'Sante Mundo that look like tanks but play like bruisers honestly do way too much damage compared to classic tanks like Malphite Rammus Maokai Shen that makes the whole class look bad.

[@Veienn]

Adc's desperately need a % max health damage item or rune after Bork has been nerfed for ranged and Cut down lost % health damage. Another 5% pen on lord dom only affects armor stacking not health stacking champions and does not solve the problem for adc's who don't have % health in their kit. ADC's with % health damage in their abilities are on-hit and the item options for on-hit are not great, there's no build variety for adc crit and on-hit items. Why isn't there an armor on-hit item like wit's end is for MR?

[@ignacioperez5479]

It should be % bonus HP for it to not be good against everyone

[@dragomaster2422]

If you watch the video, Phreak says not all ADCs should be able to kill tanks. He doesn’t want to buff the ADC class and believes it’s in a good spot which I agree. Most adcs can already beat tanks, you just can’t solo them because then a lot of top laners would be upset with ranged top lane meta if an adc could 1 v 1 a tank. As for the build variance, Phreak already talked about how the team tried to encourage build variance for adcs back when there were mythics until the end of season 14 and he realized items like rageblade and IE are key capstone items that players insist on building EVEN with variance, so they would balance around that majority and saying it’s ok all crit marksmen buy IE.

[@ignacioperez5479]

@@dragomaster2422 then, if the counter to kill tanks is constant DPS, and ADC, the class that is supposed to deal constant DPS, is not supposed to kill tanks unless You are a specific champ, what is the purpose of the class?

[@SectorZeroGP]

No thanks

[@pandabear194]

@@dragomaster2422 a class that builds full damage shouldnt be able to deal damage? Phreak is crazy and wrong. If you only itemize damage you should be able to kill tanks even if you're draven. Because if you take away the ADCs ability to kill the front line then they literally have NOTHING in the game they excel at. ADCs arent assassins they cant hit the backline. ADCs dont do burst damage they aren't mages. ADCs dont farm fast or safely like mages do. ADCs dont tank damage cause they have no stats. ADCs cant win 1v1s. And now ADCs cant even kill the frontline in the teamfight they've been waiting for. There is no way you actually believe this is good game design. The current meta for adcs is to NEVER INTERACT and stay at full HP

[@sonicex8287]

I genuinely think one of the issues adc has rn is the lack of assassins being prevalent, this being. That mid mages are way too safe, and scale too easily compared to the adc. Almost every game I'm in (I play jungle) it's generally the mid lanera who decide the game unless someone else gets some crazy lead.

[@Bibimbap-b3l]

this is prevalent in every elo is the crazy part. it doesn't even matter how dogshit the players are, as long as they're playing a control mage they will have a massive input into the outcome of the game. it's not balanced and I don't understand how more people aren't vocal about this. mages are ridiculous this season.

[@ignacioperez5479]

@@sonicex8287 assasins being strong on mid Will only make more mages go to botlane. I agree assasins need to be stronger, but that change would not help ADC

[@Neovipa]

@@Bibimbap-b3l The design philosophy seems to be that brainless champions should have the same contribution to winning a game as someone who puts in hundreds or thousands of games on a high skill expression champion. You just end up with no reason to actually learn these more intricate champs if you want to win, since you would get better results faster by simply playing someone like garen.

[@glenndiddy]

I haven't seen any assassisn run first strike in ages. The latest nerfs to it have made it completely useless for assassins. I only see marksmen (cait MF) run it and artillery mages like xerath. No one else can use it because it's gonna get procced before you even enter combat being a melee champ

[@coldresin]

Same, it's not a good rune

[@astrogod_]

assassins going conq get more gold from triumph than first strike. the rune is so useless lol

[@LinusAkaPano]

I personally run FS on ap Shaco. But that's just me

[@yggdrassill1]

Why do we suggest that assassins aren't played in pro play due to having 15 less AD instead of just acknowledging the actual issue, which is the inherent tankiness of most characters and supports being giga strong AND their items being strong. Low and behold, big shock you cant kill anyone when locket gives a shield, your kit gives a shield/heal and you have exhaust on top. It has absolutely nothing to do with -15 ad. Its the fact that if supports play well the assassin has no opportunity to have lethal. Regarding killing tanks, we used to have old LDR and the old cutdown in the game. Not to mention mage's damage against tanks is absolutely abysmal. If you build ALL of the "anti-tank" items being liandries and all the pen items you are still tickling them. The problem isnt that your damage gets reduced, it's the fact that your damage gets massively reduced ON TOP of them having insane hp. Cheers for the rundown and the new season feels good so far, but if you want to address tanks you do not buff mage/adc damage, they already do arguably too much damage against each other and anything thats squishy. They need tools to actually dent a tank (they maybe shouldnt have both resistance AND a lot of hp on every items they build).

[@Twitch-oq3ir]

the funny part is, mages at the moment are probably better at killing tanks than the adc class, even tho they are not even that good against tanks. high range mages can spam abilities on tanks with them permanently having liandrys on them doing MAX HP (not much but atleast it is MAX hp and not currenthp), they get damage modifiers from their items AND they have 40% magicpen + 18 flatpen + feats of strengh. Crit adcs CRIT 6000 hp tanks for 90 damage per hit, meaning you would need 67 attacks, not even accounting for hp regen. Dont get me wrong i dont say that mages are strong against tanks, i just want to say that they have it way easier killing tanks than the class that is literally designed for that.

[@rusticfightr]

As a gwen player who only really is a tank killer early due q true damage and 2or 3 is items after scaling passive it's not just about having tools the longer it takes for you to kill them the more time teammates have to to rotate and kill I don't even target tanks unless They have a shut down or are weak. This might hard en practice most champs don't have huge defensive and offensive steroids to ignore them. my point is that I don't just think it's about items usually alot of tanks cc works as disengage meaning if they are in danger or they ms like garen or have both malphite rammus. Obviously there are exceptions like Darius or urgot do not.

[@Hurubon1]

How do you explain Akali having presence in pro play?

[@yggdrassill1]

@Hurubon1 It has been picked 9 games across lpl/lck of which it won 4, hardly amazing. But its a good point regardless. Akali is quite unique amongst assassins in that she actually has a really decent lane phase against almost anything. Cant get ganked easily and has really good base stats and is more of a disruptor than a true assasin. This doesnt apply to the rest of the champs in this class as much, my point was more aimed to explain how they counter abusable lane phases of a talon and qiyana for instance through supports as well as their nature of instant burst that either kills or it doesnt

[@iziryu]

​@@Hurubon1She doesn't feel like an assassin, she's like Sylas where she has insane base stats and regen + very low energy costs, compare that to Talon or Qiyana where they have to actually manage their mana and have very low sustain in lane.

[@utopia19876]

“ADCs are in a good spot rn” - sees most of Bot A tier being mages - Im sure they are Mr phreak, I’m sure they are

[@Sinzari]

That stat is pretty fake

[@thomasbenishek7927]

Xfsn saber. One of the best caitlyn one tricks NA. Started first timing hwei and veigar bot lane. And felt and seems WAY more impactful then is incredibly high skilled cait. And he is first timing these champs in start of season diamond and master.

[@steagle2592]

Check the pick rate, buddy. I can tell you've never passed a statistics class

[@Sinzari]

@steagle2592 Ok, just did, it's under 2.5% for every mage. Sounds like you're the one who hasn't passed a statistics class.

[@OMGITSATORNADO]

@@steagle2592doggy

[@albertooliboni3046]

Can't wait for assassins to never be picked in the first Fearless-Draft season ever so they can be shit both in soloQ and pro

[@LukeA471]

Why wouldn't they be

[@albertooliboni3046]

@LukeA471 There's no place in Pro-play for assassins, the more a team play together (moving together on the map, carefully pinging where the enemies can be, never overextending unless having back up, peeling for the carries, synchronized attacks on one target) which is best displayed in proplay, the more an assassin's job becomes ineffective and borderline unplayable I can't even fathom how they can think nerfing Assassin's dmg for utility will bring them back to pro The only Assassin you will maybe see is Leblanc because she's a ranged mid with escapes and she's AP so she has access to items like Zonya, but even her got dumpstered by the removal of eyeball collector in soloq

[@dylanhelvetios2300]

@@LukeA471 because assassins play around mistakes and are bad in teamfights. There's a reason why Zed havent done anything in pro in the last 10 years. The only assassins who are still picked are Akali and LB who are almost un-gankable and can play around their team in TF but even them are rare. There's Yone too but they play him as a bruiser.

[@Raiko01]

@@albertooliboni3046 LB, Akali, Yone, Nidalee, Khazix see play. Just not the assassins that rely on flipping kills in botlane like zed, talon, rengar, Shaco or kata

[@albertooliboni3046]

@Raiko01 LB, Akali, Nidaler rely on AP items, LB i already said why she's played, Nidalee is played if the team has Heavy reliable cc and she becomes a heal bot late game anyway, Akali plays different from an assassin, her combo takes longer and she has to weave through spells, Yone is a melee ADcarry that is played as a bruiser, literally has nothing to do with an assassin, ZERO, not the items, not the gameplay, Khazix whenever is played is an Evolved W bot or Full bruiser with conqueror and Black cleaver

[@purplepizzapalaceplace]

I don't agree with his take that eyeball collection is what is holding back domination in pro. Yes eyeball collection is straight trash in pro, but anyone who actually reads the runes would realize that zombie ward and ghost poro give the same adaptive force as eyeball alongside their unique effects. In practical situations, if you consciously interact with the vision system and try to stack them (which most soloQ players don't but still), you can easily stack them at roughly 20-25 minutes for ghost poro if you place deep wards which are unlikely to be swept, and likely 25-30 for zombie ward (which is a bit slow, but pros place way more wards so it's likely better there). More people in higher elo also understand this and take zombie ward / ghost poro more frequently, and eyeball is NEVER taken in professional play. I went back and checked every single Ahri game over this past worlds, and over the 18 games where she took electrocute, every single game was played with zombie ward, and she only failed to stack it ONCE (xiaohu lmao). On average, it was generating about 15 zombie wards, and extrapolating the game time vs zombie wards spawned that game, it appears that they were completing it at about ~24 minutes. Yes this is about 4 minutes slower than the 20 minute figure that Phreak presented for the full stacking of eyeball collection in SoloQ, but it's not *that* much slower and is probably warranted considering that zombie ward gives a lot of value through the wards themselves.

[@akramyeon]

Factss

[@albertooliboni3046]

@@purplepizzapalaceplace Assassins are never gonna be viable in a game played with coms, let's be honest

[@TheFoolishnoob]

Assassins go sweeper, and they aren't the ones that go out of their way to actually clear wards, the sweeper is used to make sure they arent spotted when attempting a flank not really to actually clear vision.

[@iziryu]

​@@TheFoolishnoobit's like he doesn't understand the role of an assassin, they are supposed to be squishy flankers with high burst damage and they for some reason want to give utility instead of damage to a class that's already struggling to do their job better than bruisers and tanks can do it.

[@youss14]

@@albertooliboni3046 they can be viable/good if u r beifeng, he played Qiyana in demacia cup vs LPL teams and he beat players like Doinb but that was in 2022 when qiyana and assassins in general were better but ye u can play them if u r completely insane on them, Creme and some others used to play Qiyana sometimes in LPL back in s11/s12 aswell but not anymore because she is in a very weak spot but if Qiyana gets buffed a lot and becomes strong we will definitely see some Qiyana in proplay from players like Creme, knight, Rookie, Care, Doinb, Scout etc are some good qiyana players in LPL and Creme used to play a lot of Qiyana in soloq before so i know forsure he would play Qiyana in proplay if she gets buffed a lot. Theres actually quite a lot of midlaners in LPL that likes to play Qiyana but they arent allowed to because she been so weak lately.

[@Scopiiii]

Thank you Phreak for still keeping up the transparency and the dev videos .... Regardless of me not always agreeing with every single take after roughly 2 years of watching every single one of your videos I want to give you my huge thanks and gratitude for the extra work you put into this

[@AAbattery444]

I appreciate the detailed breakdown and transparency, Phreak, but I think there’s a gap between the statistical balance and the actual player experience, particularly for ADCs. Aiming for a 50% win rate as a balance target makes sense in theory, but it doesn’t capture the whole picture when the role feels so limited in agency. A 50% win rate can mean something very different depending on how that win rate is achieved. If it comes from being heavily reliant on scaling, team composition, or the overall game balance (e.g. 50% of teams always win and 50% of teams always lose, regardless of balance) rather than individual performance, it starts to feel more like a coin flip than a true indicator of balance. One of the main frustrations many ADC mains feel is how long it takes to reach our power spikes-often not until three items-while other roles gain meaningful impact much earlier with cheaper builds or more forgiving kits. Even when we do hit those late-game power spikes, surviving and dealing damage effectively can still feel like an uphill battle due to the tankiness, mobility, and burst of other classes. It’s not about wanting to be overpowered, but about bringing back some of the role’s identity and influence, particularly in the mid-game. On a related note, the state of AD assassins, who are supposed to counter squishier roles like ADC, has also suffered. Champions like Zed and Talon feel overshadowed by bruisers and tanks, who can do just as much damage while being significantly tankier. The result is that ADCs are stuck in a weird place where we don’t have strong counters fulfilling their role anymore, but we still don’t have the durability or tools to carry games effectively either. The broader issue is that balancing purely for numbers doesn’t address the overall feel of the gameplay experience. If the role itself feels like it lacks impact until late-game, and even then has limited agency, it’s no wonder players are frustrated. I'd love to hear more thoughts about balancing around player agency and game feel, alongside the raw stats. Is there room to reexamine how ADC scaling and itemization work so that we feel more relevant earlier without making the role oppressive?

[@akramyeon]

Well said

[@AzraelxRuin]

Trust me, there is no possible stat context concept that you could offer that he hasn't already considered. He knows this. This is extremely trivial context compared to how in depth they actually go into the kind of area you're describing.

[@themegaladon18]

So I see a lot of the bruisers out burst assassins but whose doing that? Some juggernauts who flash and late game Camille? Qiyana and talon are killing a squishy faster than almost any bruiser. On the topic of adcs, I feel like any collector start adc is spiking pretty hard at two items. You can't really have adcs spike first item hard or the game becomes miserable for everyone including marksman, we've seen that happen a couple times in the past couple years. Same with if you give them a bunch more agency, in order to do that your going to have to change the class into something that isn't a marksman anymore.

[@mogullll]

This is all very valid but if you want earlier powerspikes you have to give up the damage and output, it's not fair to have a role that simply is responsible for "carrying the game" in a 5v5 team game without severely time gating the points in which that level of power can occur. The game is meant to have all 5 players performing equally important roles, a game in which 4 people all play around their 1 carry would be an entirely different game. I haven't put much time into ADC in a while so I'm not sure what champs are currently good early, but aren't there always powerful early game ADCs who come online super early and fall off late, such as lucian, draven, samira, kallista? Fair's fair if you don't wanna play kogmaw vayne jinx and have to wait 30 mins to be an active participant in the game, but there are alternatives for these players, no?

[@mimklive]

100% agree. Funny how he said he’s changing system changes based on player ‘feel’ regardless of the statistics such as feats of strength but then backtracks and disrespects player feeling on adc and compares it to statistics such as the durability patch

[@AAbattery444]

Does aiming for a 50% win rate for ADC really make sense if the role has so little impact that it turns games into a coin flip? What if ADCs over 50% win rates are the only ones making a real difference, while those below 50% are just having a negative effect? In that case, is 50% still a good balance target? A 50% win rate for ADC as a balance goal can be misleading. It just means the game is a coin flip because the role has so little impact. Using 50% as a balance goal doesn’t work when ADCs lack agency.

[@themegaladon18]

Eh you don't really understand winrates. Majority of the adcs who occupy the negative win rate area are the same offenders over the span of years. Those few tend to have a lot more agency like ezreal or a lot of hidden power/skill curve like aphelios. Adcs are not the same as 2012, a lot of them are doing really different stuff. You downplay your own class in terms of skill to say what you did.

[@pandabear194]

@@themegaladon18 Yeah dude MISS FORTUNE IS SO BROKEN. You've got to be kidding me . ADCs dont do damage. They dont kill towers better. They dont do burst damage. They dont tank damage. They dont kill tanks. They dont push waves fast. They cant farm the safest. They cant run away. They have low mobility. ADCS excel at NOTHING in the game when comparing them to other classes. They dont have an identity. The current meta is NEVER INTERACT WITH THE OPPONENT. Which is why you see MF. You push the wave and NEVER INTERACT keep your health at full. THIS IS POOR GAME DESIGN AND CLEARLY WRONG.

[@themegaladon18]

@pandabear194 One your wrong. Two, if marksman are so god awful why are they played in almost every game, at every level of play? Could it be that they have a strength making them worth playing over a mage who will inevitably be worse in the comp later? Did they just buff both adc armor pen items by 5% which is a insane buff? They were under tuned but now they are just fine, unless you don't understand how strong that 40% armor pen is. Stop complaining just to complain bud. I didn't say they were broken, I said the guy above didn't know how to read stats whatsoever, which he didn't obvious. Then I gave a small explanation why the winrates work the way they do. So angry and delusional, play another role so you have a little more perspective on the game. Only full adc mains complain like you here and keep in mind adc is my secondary role.

[@pandabear194]

@@themegaladon18 "if marksman are so god awful why are they played.." let me ask you this why does every american office still have a fax machine? We have email and printers there is no reason 100s of millions of dollars should be allocated every year to such a wasteful and superfluous technology. Well the answer is because human choice is involved and that means when choice is invovled there is room for ineffeciency and other considerations in the market. I dont' believe or assume that everyone picking there champion is doing so with the question "will this give me the best chance to win the game?" I think alot of people pick certain things because they were picked before, a sort of habit. I think some of those players pick those things because they find caityln skins the "coolest" or some similar reasoning. In fact there is an infinite amount of "human" reasons why this is the case. And screaming the popularity statistic and getting some kind of conclusion from it without evidence shows you dont understand stats fundamentally. ADCs have no identity at this point in time there is nothing they do that is unique or better then any other class in the game. Mages have better range. Mages have better wave clear. Mages are safer in lane. Mages have better burst damage. Mages kill towers just as fast. Mages kill objectives fast. Bruisars have the most movespeed. Bruisars have better survivability. Bruisars have more AD then adcs. Bruisars can farm the solo lane. Bruisars win 1v1s. Support has more utility then adc. Support can kill adcs. Support can roam the best. Name one thing adcs are supposed to be good at and i can point to other classes that are way better. " adc armor pen items by 5% which is a insane buff" It's funny that you accuse others of not reading but will omit one key detail in these changes to adc in the patch. YOU DIDNT MENTION THE GOLD INCREASE. Seeing only the +5% armor pen and not seeing hey this cost more gold now, is so insanely biased and shows a lack of understanding and intelligence. For example the yuntal buff they gave 5 ad and 10 attacks speed for the price of 100 gold. 5 ad is worth 175 gold and 10attack speed is worth 250g but it is also the worst stat in the game. So in very real terms they buffed Yun Tal arrows by a HUGE 75g but delayed there next items. Yeah dude HUGE BUFF that doesnt address the current issue of health stacking drain tanks like volibear and the like. Part of the problem with adc is there items are so god damn expensive that you dont want to increase the gold cost. This is clearly a placebo buff in order to placate the current sentiment of adc balance. If you dont see that you just lack the ability and shouldnt be giving your opinion on frankly anything. "mage who will inevitably be worse in the comp later? " This is a misnomer and not actually the case and there peak strength generally is mid game which is more valuable then being a late game champion. I would even say a late game draven or caitlyn is so much worse then a late game viktor or hwei. Champions like Cass is still useful 50+ mins in the game. Karthus is actually stronger then every adc late game. As for the comp consideration adc necessitates a support role pick, when you make the champion in the bot lane a mage now the support has flexiblity to pick frankly whatever they want. adc supports become worse like yuumi who isnt very good with mages or someone like lulu who has the best synergy with a kog maw and not hwei. Enchanter supports generally act as a multipler to the adc's damage in an indirect manner, so adcs being infinetly weaker makes the brand and zyra pick so much stronger then a lulu or yuumi pick.

[@themegaladon18]

@pandabear194 Ok, I'm actually done trying to argue with someone so incredibly dumb in regards to league of legends or angrily biased towards their own role. I skimmed over your little angry tangent here. Mages would be played every game in pro if they were that much better than adcs. More than that, they would be highly picked in high elo solo queue, which is meta focused and early to mid game heavy. There's no more argument of picking what they want now. Also, go look up the math on armor pen, 5% is disgusting vs both tanks and squishys. It simply doesn't matter that they slightly upped the price on it. Anyway, I'd probably stop playing your role or the game if I were you. You understand a lot less than you think and it just makes you angry. 😊

[@Larkos_QK]

Oh boy, this is going to be a long post... I would like to address your comments regarding the philosophy behind "the median" AD carry as you referred in your video and the big diversity we see in terms of ADC. To start off, let's tackle a fundamental concept, which seems to be applied only when it favors every other champions classes except ADC. As you mentioned, players' perspective and feelings on what is strong and what is weak matters more than mathematically correct simulations. Hence why you are nerfing upgraded boots even though you think (based on the data you gathered) they are not very strong. I don't really understand why you don't apply the same logic with ADCs. Every persons that play ADC botlane for a long time recognizes that the role has been week for a while now. Yes, in a simulation against a target dummy that doesn't move, ADCs may have the highest DPS output (which I dont even think is true but w/e), but as you pointed out, league games are not simulation and we are not fighting against target dummies, which reduce drastically the potential DPS output of auto attackers champions. Because the traditional auto attack adc botlane role has been quite weak for a a while, we have started to see other builds/archetypes being played botlane. Think about your AP kai'sa, lethality caitlyn, varus etc. (and I don't even start talking about mages botlane). BECAUSE auto attacker adc is weak, a huge diversity in terms of builds and playstyle appeared. However, I have been playing this game since season 1 and generally speaking, most ADC botlane main would rather play auto attacker champions as this is generally what they enjoy playing the most. Now we can start talking about WHY auto attacking adc botlane are weak and why buffing LDR will not solve this issue. First of all, let's agree on what the general perspective of what "weak" means for ADCs. From talking with many players, watching pro players stream, and my own experience in games, ADCs currently have very little impact on teamfights' outcome. Indeed, when the laning phase ends, adcs suddenly have to deal with so many threats and are so squishy that in any fights they have to play very passively and wait that the fight is almost over to start trying to meaningfully impact the fight. At the same time, every other champion classes seem to get automatic HP/armor/move speed in their kit or item build path that they can produce a high damage output while having a high survavibility. This phenomenon is increased as champions get more gold, because they get more items which AT THE SAME TIME help with their survival AND damage output. However for ADCs, even if you get ahead of other players in terms of gold, buying meaningful damaging items will not help with your survival. Hence an important concept emerges: as ADC, your margin of error in a fight always remains the same (very low) even when you get ahead, while every other champion classes can start to play like monkeys and will still shit on you even if they make obvious mistakes. In my opinion, Riot need to let go of the idea that ADC auto attacker need to be the only archetype that doesn't passively get more tanky as the game goes on. By the way, this is why we see this issue is lessend in pro play. Indeed in a coordinated team, players generally understand that they should protect their ADC, thus helping with their squishiness issue and allowing them to deal high DPS output. Well that was a long post, hopefully helpful for us ADC main in the future.

[@blisswinters2527]

I actually really like the "ADCs have a thin margin of error" analysis in particular.

[@cursecrab]

AD carries shouldn't be the only class capable of taking down a tank, tank items are to stong in terms of countering every class. If I'm playing a tank and the enemy has a lot of and/or a fed AP carry I can go kaenic rookern and completely counter their kit with single item, for an autoattacker I can go Steelcaps+Wardens mail and later Randuins or Frozen heart to counter them. Tank items are also cheaper than most other items which makes it easier quickly counter the enemy. Adc and ap items don't need a buff, tank items need a nerf.

[@eamichelena]

no? they specifically have designed other types of champs to deal with tanks too... like lillia or brand

[@cursecrab]

@@eamichelena So we agree then, there are champions that are designed to take down tanks outside of the adc role. But at the moment the tanks overall are too strong because of their items.

[@eamichelena]

@@cursecrab sry, read bad,my apologies, u right

[@pandabear194]

@@cursecrab but adcs should be the primary role to deal with tanks. Even draven should be more effective at killing tanks then other classes. because hes the DPS and when you take away the DPS from the adc class they literally have NOTHING. No identity. Bruisars have more AD. Bruisars have more movespeed. Mages farm waves faster. Mages farm waves safer. Support has more utility. Top wins 1v1s. Top has more defensive tools. Top and mid have better mobility tools. Jungle has better engage tools. Anyone who builds damage kills towers just as fast as adc. Maybe you could say adcs kill baron faster on average by like a 1 second, but theres a bunch of champs that do the same thing or better like heimerdinger fiora bel veth briar yi. ADCs have NO IDENTITY anymore. They dont have anything they excel at.

[@cursecrab]

@@pandabear194 In terms of raw damage per second an adc will be at the top out of all the classes. But like I said originally the items for adc's isn't the core issue. The real issue is that the tank items are to strong, they are much cheaper compared to items for other classes and they bring a lot of value. Tanks are a real problem for every class to deal with right now, not just adc's. Tank items should be nerfed first then after that perhaps adc items could use a buff if needed.

[@thomasbenishek7927]

For the ADC changes the biggest issue is attack speed is a terrible stat atm. What many high elo adc build is how to do the most damage in the least interactive way possible. That’s why a lot of best builds are lethality. Maximize damage in one or two spells or autos. Jinx best build should not be collector opportunity ie. Twitch best build it collector ie ldr/mortal imo. Ashe has the static, ghost blade, bt build which I think is the best. Clear wave in three auto and w and play for w damage in fights. What I’m trying to say is attack speed is a dead stat. Adcs need to have more genral up time instead of being a bursts class. Idk how to fix this but that would be my ideal auto attacking adc. Orb walk and if you f up then loose all your damage or die. Maybe increased range, more self peel, more team peel, more back line tankiness? Idk you guys come up with the how if you like this idea.

[@ignacioperez5479]

@@thomasbenishek7927 they don't want it because they don't want to make AD AS crit chance ítems because they are good on ADC. May sound stupid what i am saying, but those are the words of August. When You have an AD AS crit item, it becomes the only good option for ADC, wich is ironic, since because of that idea, now ADC have no variety in builds

[@thomasbenishek7927]

@@ignacioperez5479I dont know where I said to add items with AD AS and crit. I’ve seen what august said about that and I like the idea. What I said here was buying any zeal or attack speed item sucks. You do zero dps because you never have time to hit enough to make the AS worth it. So instead max AD, armor pen, and crit is the best build everywhere

[@treyhova1183]

Is there any chance we could get giant slayer on not LDR or even as its own item? A big issue is that even if LDR was 50% armor pen, it still doesnt help cut through randuins and tabi passive cutting all crit adcs damage in half.

[@vibechecktsundere4912]

I think it’s less to do with armor items and the fact that it’s HP stacking with Tabi’s that makes ADC deal no damage. I thought armor/armor pen as a whole was in a healthy spot and that HP was too efficient. Tabi’s also probably needs to either lose 5 armor or have its passive reduced to 10%

[@thomasbenishek7927]

Just don’t do the armor pen buff and add 10% back to ldr. Then there is a distinct difference between when to buy the two instead of mortal just alway being better

[@doffy5394]

Why not just nerf plated steelcaps and buff berserker greaves? Do u think we adcs are billionare with these price increases? And also the ldr changes doesnt address the underlying issue that adcs have dealing with tanks

[@Raiko01]

giant slayer my beloved

[@themegaladon18]

If they being back Giant slayer they have to half the effect. Not just because it was broken but because that huge number made more sense in mythic meta where numbers were higher. Aphelios shouldn't be killing a 300 armor ksante in 6 seconds just because I bought ldr. 12% probably a good middle ground

[@_fenick5639]

@@themegaladon18 i think removing both cut down and ldr as being good at tank killing is a mistake, if there is at least ldr with some % dmg its fine, i agree they shouldnt kill them that fast but still having at least half of what it had would fix all the issues with tank meta

[@jordanwilson9316]

Adc players yapping when they don’t insta one shot melt the full armor ornn

[@hayin2041]

Dark Harvest is primarily use by Mage rather than Assassins

[@hamzaaitbendawad3569]

ADCs should be a "GLASS CANON", the problem is the GLASS aspect is present but the CANON part is yet to be found, and that's what adc main are mad about. Also, we don't want to be forced to play vayne or kog every game because the enemy team picked 2 tanks, make the pool bigger or fix tanks; otherwise, you will be forced to see a tank = pick anti-tank adc, and that will cuz more problems.

[@bobmarlie959]

looks like phreak's braincells evaporated along with his hair.

[@pandabear194]

He's a midwit, he fancies himself a genius for repeating basic statistics 101 platitiudes while actually not truely understanding if they are appliciable or the most relevant piece of information for making balance changes. Phreak is simply a benefactor and example of failing upwards.

[@jacobcannon8876]

Phreak what are ADCs supposed to build against health stackers?

[@pandabear194]

Its funny he believes the TANKS are in a good state and the items are perfectly fair. The current meta for botlane is play a mage. And if you're trolling by playing ADC never INTERACT WITH THE OPPONENT STAY FULL HP. Now is that good game design? Is MF running around with BT first item and running away from everyone otherwise she'll be one shot, good gameplay and balanced ? Phreak seems to think so.

[@kogmawmain8872]

Having the gold from "killing" someone with voraciois Atakhan means you get more gold from "killing" the 0/10/2 enemy than you would from *actually* killing them, which sounds a little weird to me. Probably something I'll not really pay much attention to during games tho.

[@Sinzari]

Good point

[@Freakattaker]

On paper this is true, but in practice is there going to be an 0/10 guy on the enemy team if voracious akshan spawns?

[@kogmawmain8872]

Since it's decided at 14 minutes which version spawns it COULD happen but yeah that's actually a good point.

[@guilhemp1383]

That 0/10 guy still gets to respawn instantly and the rest of his team is still worth less gold than normal

[@zoi4039]

well as far as I know a kill can only got as low as 100 so no

[@EminNSU]

This target dummy test when comparing ADCs and Mages is complete crap. As a mage, I could push all my buttons into an enemy tank in 1 second and move back to a safe distance again (or not approach to the target at all, many mages allow this), while as an ADC I have to get within attacking distance and attack target relentlessly. Obviously, in a real game, the former - pressing all the buttons in a second - is a thousand times easier than the latter.

[@caruja5301]

He says this at 19:02 so they're definitely aware of that

[@pandabear194]

@@caruja5301 Yeah but everything he does moves in the opposite direction. he came up with the excuse mages have a high winrate in botlane because adcs are dumb and take armor. Well they changed the masteries to health only and turns out that was never the issue at all he was wrong. They were strong then and they are even stronger now.

[@glenndiddy]

There's not a single champion in the game that's below 100 armor in the late game. I remember maxing out at like 70 as a burst mage because that was supposed to be their weakness to compensate for their long range and safety

[@SpiceCh]

Is this actually true or is it just exaggeration? Because while champions got more hp, I don't think the armor growth stat was buffed *that* much

[@nevermorebouquet3681]

@@SpiceCh it's true.

[@glenndiddy]

@SpiceCh theres like 20-30 below 100 armor. Soraka and nami end up at 117 armor. Enchanters at damn near tank level armor growth

[@SpiceCh]

@@glenndiddy so I was correct - op is lying for the sake of exaggerating their point. 20-30 champions is 20 % of the roster

[@nevermorebouquet3681]

@ lvl 18 kassadin has the lowest base, non gimmicked armor in the game at 87, next is A Sol at 90. The entire "20% of the roster" with "sub 100" armor, excluding two (thresh and kassadin), have anywhere from 90-99 base armor at lvl 18. Yeah, huge exaggeration there.

[@FreakyGW]

3 kills for the feat is a great number, but this should be unique kills, so one bad lane cannot lose the feat by themselves. It would be an easy way to make it feel less of a coin flip. The upgraded boots are not that strong, unless you are Cassiopeia. That Girl is just broken.

[@pandabear194]

HE SAID HES HAPPY WITH TANK BALANCE AND TANK ITEMS. THIS IS ACTUALLY INSANE.

[@zyad48]

18:14 "The combat is the slowest it has ever been in the recorded history of League of Legends" "There is no war in Ba Sing Se"

[@rjw19]

Hey Phreak, please check the highest bot lane champ win rates and notice the discrepancy in Mages bot vs ADC. And before anyone argued pick rates, yes traditional ADCs are still played in a lot of games, but in higher elo the meta is becoming dominated by Mage bot. Look at Hwei and Luxs winrate bot vs mid or support for example.

[@pandabear194]

Phreak wont listen. Last year he kept saying Mages were fine because adcs were taking the armor stat in their masteries. Well as it turns out that wasnt the issue then and it isnt the issue now. He stated in the video hes totally fine with the current power of tanks and their items. This game is beyond saving without this guy leaving.

[@joeblondie9663]

personally as an ADC player i've lost any interest in winning game, and general even in login in, i know that i can't decide anything even super late game, smb just flash into my face stun/slow/snare whatever and it's over, i've stopped playing this game and i don't feel addicted to league anymore, ty Phreak for being terrible at your job, you actually save people's lives.

[@glenndiddy]

I don't expect draven or jhin to kill tanks fast. But I do expect a fed Jinx to be able to kill tanks at all. Right now tanks are pretty much unkillable unless you have 2-3 DPS classes on them, or have a dedicated tank shredder like Kog'Maw/Gwen

[@dragomaster2422]

I don’t think a fed jinx should still be able to 1 v 1 a tank. They are supposed to have a team or an enchanter around them. Most times when a Jinx loses to a tank, it’s because the tank has HP and armor and it’s a 1 v 1. Most top laners agree the melee should win in most cases. If you want to have fed crit adcs or adcs in general 1 v 1 tanks, you will have to talk to the ranged top laner complainers before you can get that to ever happen.

[@rusticfightr]

Dude as gwen player I really only am a tank shredder and after a few items after passive nerf which is %max HP so if they get fed the best I can do is rush void

[@rusticfightr]

Just to be clear I still kill them 1v1 but I would not call it fast or an effective use of damage

[@glenndiddy]

@@dragomaster2422 I don't think a fed ADC should lose to a weak tank that they outplay. If a 0-5 tank just kills an ADC what is the point of an adc to begin with?

[@KD-_-]

Tanks are not supposed to solo bolo kill the ADC with minimal counterplay. That is the job of champions like Fiora and Jax. When ADC sees a tank 2 levels below them with 0/8 score they should not think "oh he's going to kill me" it should be "someone else is here I need to be careful if I fight" ​@@dragomaster2422

[@Itsuki220]

As an eve player for 13 years, I would say the e ms buff does not target her main weakness at the moment. Subredditers think it is her comeback time yet I am pretty pessimistic on it. The reason is due to the importance of early neutral objectives. She has one of the weakness early solo drake power and the dragon at 5 mins is not possible for her unless there are teammates around. Eve is a champ that mainly viable in the solo/duo and the environment there prioritise farming their own creep than helping the jungler, meaning solo drake power matters a lot. In order to keep up with the farming and solo objective speed I'm often forced to build Blackfire unless I get super fed despite the item is not the best on assassins. If the damage against Epic Monsters doesn't change, she will keep struggling and you will need another buff on her, which ended up overbuffing. She does not need more combat ms unless you want her to be a fighter again, like her first rework. Idk I can have enough likes to push this comment to you but I truly hope the devs can understand why is she struggling at the moment.

[@Itsuki220]

@Callaway226 Say you are right, Riot games want her to be weak and is satisfied with her state along with rengar and kayn. When Riot games want a champ to be weak or simply get deleted from the game they don't hesitate to nerf a champ to 30% wr. Those two contradict each other and in reality riot wants champs to be 50% wr, maybe slightly lower for high skill ceiling champ and none of those three champions falls into this category.

[@AnimeFrankReynolds]

Phreak, do you have any thoughts on the boots gaining 5 ms being tied to getting one feat, and then the 750 gold upgrade still being at winning the feats of strength like you do currently? The 5 ms is the less exciting reward, but it is the more powerful buff.

[@worstplayer7299]

Yes the reason assasins suck is the eyeball collector removal, they werent trash like 10 patches before you removed it !!! xDD

[@SmokedBisque]

As an adc main i feel like a super minion

[@rusticfightr]

Have you seen that tam kench sup 1v1 full item jinx

[@coldresin]

as a Talon main i feel like a siege minion

[@DazaiSan9150]

know your place

[@pandabear194]

super minions can at least live for more then 5 seconds.

[@sasukefifa8163]

When can we expect ADCs Botlane to be not the worst shit u can play atm

[@dylanhelvetios2300]

Never because ADC players will cry every years even when their role decide games half of the time.

[@ignacioperez5479]

Phreak found support and mages are easier to play from a mechanic perspective, so between never and never

[@Dentas137]

@@dylanhelvetios2300 Let this be true. Overwhelmingly every other role wants this.

[@justascomplicated8182]

@@dylanhelvetios2300 There has to be a middle ground between adc delusion and adc deciding half of games. Never ending story of solo q being a terrible adc experience and top laners upset that more plays generally happen on the side of the map with more people :o

[@johnj9877]

Most impactful role, gets a new best item, gets role heavily buffed entire szn and this patch, keeps crying. Try top crybaby you might have a mental break

[@VonDutchyy]

thank you mr riot phreak

[@pandabear194]

bend over for him too 😂

[@TheSorrowfulAngel]

Swiftplay is nice for any newer, "casual" or struggling player, imo. You dont lose the match as hard from one person feeding, which is great for a casual game mode. And being behind - even pretty far behind - you still get your items&levels you require to function. This really allows struggling players to have fun and actually learn something. While people like to say you learn a lot from your losses... that only goes so far. If you get stomped hard - which happens often enough, especially to a struggling player~ you learn very little. Cause the game puts you into a situation in which you have extremely little agency. Id argue that, especially for a struggling player, they learn next to nothing from that experience. Its actually really, really hard to play from behind in league. So yeah: its great that there is a game mode for those types of players that isnt completely different than SR(Like Aram, Urf or Arena).

[@CSDragon]

19:16 it definitely is. Cooldown-gated classes like mages will be less affected by CC than sustained damage classes like fighters and adcs. Tanks are known for having the most cc in the game.

[@ignacioperez5479]

Ruined king on ADC is less effective than any ADC item. And the changes to ADC items makes them better against squishy, not even close to good against tanks. The build you said is already the standard and doesnt work

[@Jon-yy8hx]

Maybe don't comment if ur gold peak

[@ignacioperez5479]

@@Jon-yy8hx i don't remember the exact numbers, but against a high HP full HP target, it added about 50 pre mitigation damage, that goes lower the lower HP the target have. Meaning it Will give less benefit at lower HP, and at high HP the benefit is not that much

[@equinox85]

@@Jon-yy8hx because you are plat peak and think you're so much better

[@blisswinters2527]

me when onhit doesn't exist

[@ignacioperez5479]

@@blisswinters2527 on hit Got the kneecap broken with the AS limit cap

[@Monjijii]

Isnt the average time to kill hugely affected by assassin champions being on the weaker side?

[@treyhova1183]

Is there any chance on-hit itemization could be expanded so it’s an option for characters without built in on-hit? Maybe adding back in Bloodrazor in the form of Qins Sais from Smite (a %hp shred item that scales with enemy hp that doesnt have lifesteal on it).

[@ghaathiqarnold8256]

@Pheak I think you just confusing me! What is a ADC to you... If jayce is a adc then Yumi is ADC.... If Yumi is adc then a Range Ziggs/Syndra/ Brand is a adc.... all this shows Roit does not understand what is a ADC. I personally follow these steps step 1: Classify what is ADC? AD + Range (Not melee/change able that would push it into bruser and have different base stats) Step 2: Understand what Roles objective is? (Late game Scaling + AA + Range + Weak laners strong Mid and late + Good at taking tower Some mages are better than adc at this) Step 3: Understand how should the Role interact with other Roles?(Weak to Assassin strong into tanks + Does it need to interact with supports) Step 4: Think about how enjoyable is to play? (Currently the role is plague) Step 5: Analysis High elo ADC players and watchhow they study the game as a adc (eg. DNI (DO NOT INTERACT)Strategy that XFSN Saber using + Are adc ment to be played such as this inorder to win game. ) Step 6: Stop using a state sheet its clearly not working. Go according to high elo and not pro play. Pro play is a differnt ball game. ( Rather have a differnt patch for pro play.like u do with Aram and Swift play) Step:6.1 ASk more analysing question Step 7: Use your Design principle (Empathize, Define, Ideate, Prototype and Test) Step 8: Build on it threw design principle and not state. People have bad games so it effects stats so states will not be ever accurate. When a build become broken its not becuz the states was broken its becuz a player had through of somthing creative Step: 9 Take pride in ADC becuz if people empathzing that the role is so shit then do somthing fast becuz adc has been negative i think for 4/5 years since season 8 i think. Step :10 Do think its nessary to dum down ADC base stats if they also getting dumb down in items? There alot to fix on ADC like a ton its probz the new support of season 2/3 No gold no items not interactive. I mean pple are saying use the DNI on adc reali so that role is moss a farm simulator at that point. I think you have alot your plate

[@Callaway226]

Nerf mages, nerf tanks/bruisers. Then it’s playable

[@jacobbarnes6066]

My dog shot himself this morning. This was in his search history 10 minutes before we found him.

[@J3ssyJames]

Omg rito trying to explain irelia nerfs. We CANT even do a BASIC combo with that massive nerf on W. Rito forgets that we lvl up W to dmg minions and be able to dash and combo. If you want to adjust her just do something about her tower taking capacity which is equal to a trundle with demolish. Omg do they just want her to be golem stack > dash on ennemy > aa to death champ ?

[@cadeueland2536]

Revert essence reaver. Make sheen great again

[@ogaimon3380]

yeah my talon sheen miss it

[@bigsmoke4592]

did sheen damage get affected by critchance? i don't think so and therefore it was highly akward to have sheen and crit effects on the same item.

[@endlessrain6992]

we may need to delete Smolder to do this

[@TT460m]

Yeah Lucian and other crit casters are gonna remain dead till we get good crit caster items again, if you go diamond+ in most regions the least popular adc’s are all the Essence Reaver dependant champions, terrible item

[@downthecrop]

GP and Draven player here and yes this is my number 1 wish

[@George-ic8yt]

Happy to see this videos again! Keep up the great work!

[@ExamplePrime]

For late game Squishies could armor per level be capped at lvl 15? That way you dont gain 15 extra armor as the game progresses into a more assassin unfriendly phase

[@setter9]

late game assassins have % pen, this not the answer to the assassin problem

[@TsuyeoLoL]

please consider buffing assassin items. any high elo assassin player/OTP will tell you that assassin items suck and feel horrible to build, especially the haste/brutalizer options

[@coldresin]

+1 they're absolute garbage

[@iziryu]

probably won't, people from every other class whine and cry about assassins whenever they have the power to deal damage.

[@coldresin]

@@iziryu Apparently it's fine if a mage, adc or bruiser one shots you with no counterplay, but people draw the line at the squishy melee assassins that have to commit all their spells and their life to the play in order to achieve anything? Idk, this community is stupid. I agree that assassins shouldn't be able to one-tap you instantly, but if you're a mage or adc caught alone while 2 levels and an item down and the fed assassin can't even kill you with ignite, that's when there's a problem.

[@ignacioperez5479]

@@coldresin the problem is, when assasins are good at their job, usually how good they are doing doesnt matter, and when it matters, the role is in a Bad spot

[@coldresin]

@ You can say that about other classes too, like bruisers being able to run people down while 0/3. The only downside to assassins is that they have high burst which feels bad to play against, but that's only an issue when people have terrible positioning and teamwork, which applies to the vast majority of the playerbase, especially with solo queue as it is. Honestly, I would be fine with assassins remaining bad if they removed/adjusted half the defensive options for mages and ADCs. You can literally just buy Seraph's and tank a full build triple Q Zed combo and you'll probably be fine, yet Hourglass is also a thing. It's silly and very poorly thought out. HP stacking is also a huge issue right now, and with Giant Slayer being removed from LDR, both ADCs and assassins are suffering greatly which makes the game boring to play.

[@ExalyThor]

Hi, Phreak! Can you consider converting Irelia's W damage from physical to magic if you plan to lower it? I did the math, and basically with the lower damage but converted to magic it would still make her deal less damage to squishy champions like Ahri (which I guess is the desired effect) while dealing the same damage as live to a Darius who has Plated Steelcaps so that it doesn't affect her dueling power with her peers on toplane. If this change would sprout unwated ap builds, her ap ratios can always be gutted. Cheers!

[@Majiger]

8:30 The issue everyone has with T3 boots is that one side gets them and the other does not. So when the free upgrade, ahem Swifties, gives a lot of free power it ends up feeling OP even if the numbers are saying it's insignificant. Assassins - What about the fact that they still have not got any chance since being garbage last season? ADCs - Can we push mages back into mid lane somehow? It's frustrating playing ADC and losing to double mage bot lane because they don't need to engage in auto range. MR/LDR - Does LDR even have a reason to exist at this point? Is 5% ArPen a meaningful enough difference for this item to occupy an item slot? Malzahar - Why has he not been updated to match other minion champs? Why does Zyra have plants that can't die to a single aoe, Heimer turrets that take almost 4 autos to kill, or Yorick has proper scaling minions? Meanwhile, Malz simply gives 9 gold to the enemy mid-lane anytime he presses W. I'd rather see slightly weaker minion damage in favour of them being able to take more than one hit. Tahm Kench - The issue is heartsteel, but hey because only Tahm, Mundo and maybe Sion use it then the item is fine right? Can't wait to see Baus break the game again with his Sion.

[@youss14]

Give Qiyana Q +10 dmg at all ranks (70 / 100 / 130 / 160 / 190) and revert the old passive nerf in 12.15 so it has 45% bonus AD instead of 30% again and she will be in a much better spot, she is struggling A LOT rn with 47% wr in master+ all servers combined (43% on EUW and 45% on NA) and she usually sits at 52-53% in master+ so she is really struggling.

[@Otyrr]

Very excited to see these level based armor values come down. It always shocks me when I click on Jinx, or (as Phreak said) Annie, and see their armor approaching 100 at lvl 18. It's just insane, and it is absolutely noticeable in game. Pretty much gurantees you need to buy either magic pen or armor pen by 3rd item, or 4th at most in an even game.

[@roidemon4076]

Can I have your though on Rek'sai please ? She was my most fun champ before rework. Having AP ratios on multiples relksai spells doesn't make sense 😅.

[@dylanhelvetios2300]

Delete Heartsteel already. Who ever thought tanks should be able to forever stacks extra HP will dealing about 400dmg extra burst should be fired!

[@pqpgodw]

Hey Phreak, did you know that Katarina's ultimate doesn't activate Malignance's passive after casting Q? Like QR to cancel the rest of the Q animation then Ulting

[@youss14]

Any plans on reverting durability patch? It feels really horrible to play when the meta nowadays is just stacking as much hp/armor as possible, reverting durability patch would probably help a lot with this issue, it also feels really bad to have both durability patch and 14.19 item nerfs in the game at the same time. I used to be a very big fan of durability patch but i really do believe its time to revert it now.

[@Ghytiees]

Marketing sure likes to be weird, that naming system is crazy for patches now haha.

[@asadtariq2307]

Assassin is fake role honestly no one plays that in Pro play. U are useless in pro league. Its also against TheBausffs theory which is very practical. So yea if u are like me who enjoys zed or mobile champs (hates tanks). This game feels shit to play

[@coldresin]

Exactly. There has been too many general buffs to durability and nerfs to assassin items (particularly AD). Duskblade and Prowler's Claw were replaced by Cyclosword and Hubris which literally no one buys, and landing a full combo on the 3-level-down squishy enchanter with 3-4 items doesn't even one shot them anymore. People have 100+ base armour by level 18 and far too much HP for the current items to be effective. Please give AD assassins actual lethality scalings so their items aren't abused and nerfed to oblivion by bruisers and ADCs. Thank you. Also, fuck Hourglass. Why's Akali and Katarina allowed to buy it and one shot you when you can't do shit back?? And why are mages allowed to have a good laning phase AND buy full immunity to all damage with an item that grants 105 AP AND armour?!?! That's a lot of damage and resistances for and item with the most absurdly broken active in the game. Give that shit to Zed or Qiyana and people will go mental.

[@pandabear194]

No adcs to farm gold off of now huh 😂 Maybe riot should make mages less safe and just has killable for an assassin player as the adc.

[@Pelmite]

Yeah I’m not exactly sure what is needed but I’ve been playing ad at a decently high level since season ~2 and this is some of the weakest the itemization has ever felt. Genuinely feels like I need a 10 kill lead to be contributing to a game.

[@Gorpax]

We understand Draven is not the same as Vayne for killing tanks, the problem is that a 2 item tank can literally 1 v 1 a 4 items draven... I think its not that hard to understand that the problem are not in the champs or armor the problem is that 1 - Tanks has too much damage in their kits 2 - ADCs needs an item for high HP champs, ffs just give giant slayer to LDR....

[@pandabear194]

I would argue that yes even Draven should be able to kill tanks because then draven literally has nothing of value to offer other then having a slightly stronger lane which can be mitigated by support pick difference. If an ADC doesnt do dmg to the front line they are useless. They cant hit the backline they arent assassins. They dont have the highest range that goes to mages. They dont have burst damage that also goes to mages. They dont have the highest AD that goes to bruisars. They dont have good base movespeed. They dont have good mobility tools. They dont win 1v1s ect ect ect. The one thing this class should excel at is dps and when you take that away they literally have nothing.

[@brandonlandry1789]

You are so out to lunch if you think Tanks and Tank damage are in a healthy state Phreak. Careful your Mooki is showing.

[@alexbriseno9529]

Who made this guy the lead of the balance team?

[@saeno7258]

You're delusional if you think the game (especially tanks and ads) is in a good spot. How you still have a job is beyond me.

[@retronymph]

Because you're clearly still playing and invested enough to watch this video the day it came out

[@magnov983]

@retronymph that has nothing to do with his take

[@pandabear194]

@@retronymph you bending over for phreak right now

[@Andre-od5hf]

Nothing about mages bot dominating bot lane? With all respect phreak, adcs are far from doing ok atm, they cant kill tanks which is the one thing they're suppsoed to and in bot lane they get destroyed by mages.

[@pandabear194]

Dont forget Phreak was the guy to keep making excuses for mages having the highest win rate in the botlane for like 2years now saying adcs are just dumb and take armor vs mages. They then changed the masteries to just health only and as it turns out that never was the issue and shows how phreak is incapable of looking holisticly at issues in the game and instead hyperfixates on a conclusion and tries to find evidence to support his wrong claim.

[@tuukkapuranen9375]

Appreciate the patch rundowns! :)

[@hyquiemistheg.o.a.t1671]

Can anyone point out, how difficult it is to get 10 stacks off that last inspiration rune?

[@clx001]

7:40 i am not quite sure how to the game can not be more snowbally than last year. So Atakan, FOS etc. must have absolutely zero impact, since they are most likely to be picked up by the team being ahead?

[@Maxah333]

There is way too much chaos in the game, good laning feels almost irrelevant

[@nibla02gamer84]

The Irelia explanation does make sense IF you would do this to other characters aswell. A compensasion buff would be to bring passive dmg ratio back to 25 or 30% if thats how you wanna move her forward

[@bos7522]

"Vayne is good at killing tanks" - Yeah I guess she is okay at killing tanks, with the caveat ofcourse being that tanks are pretty good at killing Vayne back. Tell me how it is fair that a 6 item tank Poppy is able to run down a full hp 6 item red white Aphelios at mach fk speed and beat him in a 1v1. It's like we're talking about combat pacing being slower and that being a good thing, but generally it's slower because most fights end with the tanks who are left alive hitting each other with wet noodles. Such an out of touch take honestly. Also speaking of Aphelios, are we just going to keep him unplayable in soloqueue? Like u're fine with him just being an OTP champ that never shows up in the meta nor ever shows up in pro play simply because he was strong 1 season? Hurr durr Yuntal buff... Yo, half the ADCs in the game dont want that item, and the other half will get it because the stats are good but the only champs that will benefit from it are already the top 2 adcs in the game right now hehexd

[@dragomaster2422]

Why tanks can 1 v 1 adcs is because of ranged top meta. If you make it so they can beat tanks in a 1 v 1, then all the ranged top lane complainers come out and keep complaining like you do that adcs are too strong. It’s a seesaw where entitled adcs don’t realize that even when fed, they can’t one v one anyone and are supposed to play with the team. A jinx is supposed to have a frontliner peeling for her or an enchanter buffing her. If she can just one v one a tank, what’s stopping adcs from going top and being lane bullies again?

[@bos7522]

@@dragomaster2422 Because Tanks are balanced around high base damage early game and ADC's are balanced around economy (items). That is what keeps ADCs out of toplane and generally the ranged champions that can go toplane either have really good mobility or really high base damage + tankiness (Varus, Vayne, Akshan). In this scenario, redwhite Aphelios is a champion that is designed to absolutely demolish any champion that doesn't 1shot it in melee range, this is an aspect of his gameplay that he has been balanced around multiple times already. So assumedly, a 6 item Aphelios with BT and Conq should not be losing to a full Tank Poppy. This is just how it is supposed to work. If Tanks can 1shot ADCs and be immune to their damage, then why would anyone ever touch an assassin? I get where u're coming from, but we're discussing 2 very different matters here. It's not early game, Tanks should not have 1shot threat nor even 2shot threat on an ADC in the late game, their toolkits already have so much utility, they don't need the damage as well.

[@KD-_-]

​@@dragomaster2422Vayne is supposed to be able to 1v1 melee duelists and tanks if she is ahead ... It's the entire point of her champion

[@pandabear194]

@@KD-_- too bad she cant play the game when getting hit off screen by hwei and op mages.

[@daniel19dj]

1 player can ruin game 4 player can't carry game - riot matchmaking 2025 😂

[@gosunflower]

Any hopes for a Nasus buff, Mr. Riot?

[@isaibnsaleheen]

Any Irelia nerf is a W in my book :')

[@shxchi]

will first blood go back to granting +100g now that its not a feat in and of itself?

[@robertwalden4852]

'We think ADC is fine so heres a token buff so you shut up'

[@_sumisu]

"i dont think adc is weak" -phreaky ah ninja

[@Dyna1One]

How would you take on the problems that Vayne for instance is having? She currently isn't in a bad spot winrate wise, and isn't oppressive toplane- great. However, she's in such a bad spot right now. I think the main problem is sustain and the noonquiver changes. In my personal opinion, it was absolutely great to play her in S13 not just because of how energize worked, but the added sustain and focus on an actual farming item on (often) both sides, was a great system. In a meta where tanks are in a fantastic spot, it should create an incentive to pick a strong tank buster, but it's incredibly taxing right now to survive the lane, and thus you'll see that most players just think it's not worth playing her (and of course, most if not every high ranked adc ranking her very low on their lists) An odd but interesting statistic I like to use is Lolalytics' average rank of the best players (mostly onetricks) of the champions and Vayne is down to D2 because of how terrible she is to play into players that know what they're doing, ending up mostly being smurfs that give up on the champion soon after they hit D1/M+. (actual ranks might be lower). How does a highly mechanically demanding champion end up in such a spot in one of the slowest, and tankiest metas in League of Legends' history struggle so hard versus champs like Corki, that far exceeds any champion botlane right now after all the nerfs and shift of the meta over the past patches. Besides nerfing the sustain from Fleet, by lowering the dps from items in the early laning phase through giving stats to farm better, she had a much easier time last hitting under pressure, and did not have to face BT or Dirk after the first back, because noonquiver was a really well designed early game item. This slowed down the laning phase and put more of an emphasis on scaling for 1-2 items over straight up just bullying out your opponent. (Though I do have to say, I miss Stormrazor and wish Statikk was never added back to the game, at least without crit ratios as it was intended to be up until 9.23 with it being removed a year later which created the degenerate playstyles of using dashes and the item rather than for their intended purpose)

[@iaml.4290]

Is there somewhere you provide dev interaction?

[@renseu7150]

can u guys fix the shit performance?

[@Lana-rs2oi]

It's becoming worse and worse every year. Think they don't care about game optimization anymore.

[@punch1t]

good patch, but a tank shouldnt be able to kill or even survive an adc if the adc is ahead 4 levels and 3 items, while the tank only has heartsteal. its unreasonable for tanks to be a threat to adc's when they are behind and that is currently the case for months and months.

[@dragomaster2422]

It’s like this because of how top laners complain about ranged top laners. They don’t want adcs to win one v one’s.

[@dylanhelvetios2300]

@@dragomaster2422 well adcs invading top and midlane all season 14 was indeed a pretty big issue.

[@johnj9877]

The situation u described never happens. Daily reminder not everyone is fit to be a dev because there’s idiots like you

[@swipefn1931]

@@dragomaster2422 I'm pretty sure any reasonably none bias top laner would agree that a 4 level lead + 3 item Jinx should be able to 1v1 a Heartsteel only Tahm Kench.

[@kaseyk3282]

It's okay, maybe once phreak makes 20 million more players leave will management do something about it (yes you can check this online, since his promotion the game has gone to mod 125 mil from 150 mil) lmao.

[@kalen7777777]

What are your thoughts on mage supports Winrates in higher elos? I feel like this class of champions is very scewed in general torwards low elo, and a lot of them have abysmal winrates past high emereald/diamond in the new season (not that they need buffs of course, if they got them they would be rediculous in bronze-gold). As a support player who loves that class of champions the most in general and has played through diamond and been in masters for very brief periods of time (hardstuck high emerald this season though cause I barely play as much as I used to), I find myself gravitating more torward playing enchanters that have more carry agency like nami/senna, because those champions just feel like they have way more agency in the game on average. If I can't bully/poke someone out in lane with those champions I can scale up and still be very relevant for the team. To me support mages feel way too reliant on getting a lead early right now, and unless your going against a player worse than you it's really hard to make an impact in the game because it's too hard to get a big enough lead, going even on mage supports right now basically feels like you get outscaled by everyone else in the game. I get they have to be this way because of their lane bullying nature and how snowbally it can be, but I was wondering if their was any thoughts about making mage supports more utility based and less lane reliant to help smooth out their curve of what elo's they can be good in? as someone who really just wants to play this class of champions it feels misrable trying to play them in higher ranks right now at least from my perspective (outside of elise and neeko anyway) and it's really made me enjoy the game less because while I could just climb with other champs and spam nami/senna, it's definitly not the champs I prefer playing. I know they aren't really THAT bad though having said that and i could still climb with them if i could "get good" but to me it feels 100% easier to win just playing enchanters or the meta initiating champs like taric/maokai/rell right now that just provide more without relying on getting leads.

[@alexandercrawford7799]

Hey Phreak - if Mel’s win or pick rates don’t improve a ton, one creative way to buff her without overtuning could be to give her a partial cooldown refund on W if she successfully hits an enemy with a reflected ability. This would not only increase her pick rate - it would further incentivize players to lean into the reflect gameplay and strategy. Good Mel reflects I reckon are gonna be really popular with KZbinrs and pro play fans so the more pros can chain money shot reflect plays the better for riot.

[@edgelord1337]

When will this patch be live

[@astrogod_]

talon diamond+ patch 14.24 went from 55% wr to now 49% wr. please buff talon

[@pandabear194]

wow assassins arent good now that no one is playing adc. 😂 Maybe riot needs to make mages just as one shottable as the adc and nerf the safe range they can poke and farm from.

[@AlexanderAnqvist-dw8ou]

So when is the melee vs ranged stuff coming exactly?

[@blackvolt1112]

fizz is at 48% wr in silver what did you do to him

[@paolosolis391]

Hopefully we get Nasus buffs soon because he's currently at the worst place he's ever been on

[@KjtheGreatPro]

I love hearing phreak break it down. League has always been a highly polarizing game.

[@Thibow_Nova]

revert the ult nerf on Qiyana her R... she's lost half the damage on her main assassination ability in her kit... that or buff her passive with her abysmal scaling.

[@michaelcabrera6210]

I was about go to bed bro.....

[@randomguy9202]

Can I join you?

[@michaelcabrera6210]

@@randomguy9202 ofc I always go to bed with random guys

[@youss14]

Qiyana has 47% wr master+ global which is INSANELY low for her, she is a otp champ and she usually sits around 52-53% winrate in master+, qiyana does need a pretty big buff next patch to help her.

[@pandabear194]

assassins are the 2nd worst class in the game. Now that adcs arent being picked they are losing imagine that.

[@youngtoneski7868]

How tf is buying tier 3 sorc boots not smart to buy? I don't get it. the gold value isnt worth?

[@dumpsterplayer2700]

blighting jewel is 1100 with 13% pen and 25AP, 25AP is 500gold. So the 13% pen is valued at approx 600 gold. 8% +3 pen on t3 boots for 750 gold, when compared to blighting jewel, which is an absolutely terrible item, is even worse. Not only are t3 boots not gold efficient, they delay your rabadons or void staff.

[@rusticfightr]

I saw a challenger coach say that it is only good after a base before an obj as an item spike when you can't afford components or think it would be value

[@dumpsterplayer2700]

@ ^ , if an important teamfight is coming up and you have only 750 gold its a consideration for sure

[@commettey]

as an off meta enjoyer, i would love that in Swift play off meta junglers would have an easier time to clear the jungle, We're required to queue for a priority role anyways and so a lot of new players might queue for jungle, or even just regular players trying jungle a little bit in a faster game, but just on their favorite champs instead of a "real jungler". i think it would be a really cool change that in Swift play jungle would be a bit easier for non jungle champs, maybe you just buff the Jungle Items or something idk

[@GrangerGranger-x8o]

Wow are you Lex Lethor

[@justascomplicated8182]

31:29 Finally. Realizing this didn't make me feel smart. It made me think the system was dumb.