Pathfinder: WotR - Ranking 199 Classes Part 1: Alchemist & Archetypes

[@TheRooster-tv3vo]

This is going to be a great series. Almost 300 hours in this game and only on act 4 cause I'm always starting over with a new class. Got the burn out from it, now that it's been several months I'm thinking of jumping back in. Great timing.

[@WildFungus]

I am the same way when I play games and I have restarted a few times usually by act 4 it's like if I'm not feeling it that's where the game ends, Alushynyyra really is a break in the pacing and always makes me consider it, but it's worth just getting to the end and forcing yourself to do it , just because it's so replayable like lots of decisions will change things that happen as early as act 4 so there's lots to experience, and you can cheeze through act 5 and 6 without doing most of the story quests and get a bad ending, just to 'have finished it' get some achievements and make it easier to get to the end doing all the 'optional story quests like saving the Hand' next time, hope that helps.

[@WildFungus]

I think it is the best feature of the game Crinukh will even meta explain this to you, You can go straight to the final boss and finish the game, but maybe you shouldn't go right to the end so you can get a better ending, cough cough, there's a ton of content in act 5 if you're not rushing, you might as well rush it once though, as it's worth replaying 2 or 3 times if not more.

[@Russlem]

An "A" rank for Vivisectionist is selling the archetype short. It's a "S" rank and completely shatters the game. Alchemist as a base class provides Barkskin, a mandatory and very difficult to get buff that typically only comes on sub-optimal classes like Shaman or Druid. In addition, infusions of Shield allow you to provide your main tank or off-tank with the insane Strength or Two-Weapon Fighting scaling to improve damage without sacrificing defense. You can even cast it on Pets to make their absurd AC even more impossible to overcome. Additionally, Mutagen AC bonuses are alchemical bonuses and when coupled with Feral Wings and a one level dip in Monk, the Vivisectionist becomes tied for the best "pajama" tank in the game with Sword Saint. On top of that, if you needed literally anything else, it has full sneak attack scaling. Couple this with the Feral Bite discovery and you're now adding free bonus attacks with full sneak attack damage. Vivisectionist is so astronomically broken, it's banned in Pathfinder Society, along with Primalist. To sum up: Barkskin, party Shield, multiple uncommon and stackable AC sources, full sneak attack scaling, and additional attacks.

[@SlanderedGaming]

It's on the cusp so there's definitely a case to make it S rank.

[@Fr.O.G.]

The problem with ineffect's rankings is that he's one of those "I only play on unfair" types, and his rankings reflect building a class around cheese.

[@SlanderedGaming]

Yup that's part of the reason why my rankings vary significantly from his.

[@klodpraisor]

I think vivisector can also make great sense for a neutral character, maybe someone who is obsessed with the study of anatomy of demons, serving the crusade for their research on the subject matter. Yes, they can also be BFF with Nenio and have some crazy weird torture experiment going on.

[@SlanderedGaming]

LOL that's a great idea!

[@WildFungus]

I kinda like vivisectionist into lich though it just werx I might dip into it for 1 level later for sure on my shadow shaman to arcane trickster to lich , I don't think it's worth taking 4 in exchange for only getting one hex but we shall see definitely making a save so I can see how both build options pan out

[@michaelkenner3289]

@@WildFungus That sounds like a fun build to go into swarm mythic path for the late game. Has a little bit of everything and the power of the prepared lich merged spellbook would get you through the earlier acts fairly easily even with the dip away from pure caster.

[@invinciblemic]

I always give Camellia 1 level of vivi... for obvious reasons. And also the dex mutagen.

[@Flagonborn]

Incense synthesizer are incredible support. Beyond the usual amazing support alchemists bring via infusions, they can provide a +4 hit/dmg to all Ally’s, 20% miss chance (and it’s not an illusion, so mobs with true seeing can’t ignore it like most miss chance buffs) and they can auto sicken and potentially nauseate (with a save) any enemy in 30feet. Yes their bombs hit for less, but they still have bombs so they can use all the utility bombs such as dispel bombs and etc.

[@Designsy-wl9nr]

Don't infusions count as their own Stat so there is little chance your other allies have an infusion buff so it basically stacks on buffs?

[@akillianat-1073]

@@Designsy-wl9nr yes

[@AncroKT]

Synthesizer does provide some nice buffs, but I still don't think I'm going to take it either as an MC or a merc when Bards and Skalds already exist. Yes you still get the whole suite of alchemy buffs and some very powerful incense options, but the number of uses per day on incense is soooooo low, and they provide so little outside of those rounds that either you're resting all the time to getting them back or just sitting back with a crossbow. Synth more than any other Alchemist subclass would have benefitted from a representative in the companions so that they could have developed some items or mythic powers for them, but for right now I can't suggest it to anyone other than trying them out in Treasure of the Midnight Isles.

[@Flagonborn]

@@AncroKT Its hard to beat skald, but i think i'd take a synthesizer over a bard anydayz

[@SlanderedGaming]

I don't disagree with anything you said but the question becomes are you actually going to choose this class? Yes it can provide great support but so can a few other classes and they arguably do it better. So I rank it a C because it's still a good class but nobody would pick it so I cannot go higher.

[@narninian2796]

Thanks for all of these videos - it was clearly an enormous of work and I appreciate your vibe.

[@SlanderedGaming]

THANK YOU! So glad you enjoyed the content!

[@V3x0r]

Incense Synthesizer is more than a little OP. You can absolutely shutdown giant groups of enemies (sickened) while buffing your own party. Super fun if you never tried.

[@anlak1318]

if you want an Ash Ketchum character, don't make a trickster but Azata, You're chaotic good, you have one "Pokémon" who's always out, and is more powerful than any other "Pokémon", and you use power of friendship, It's a perfect fit.

[@SlanderedGaming]

Nice that's a good call.

[@jamesbrice3267]

Aivu! I choose you!

[@pennding3415]

Double up by being a pet class My personal choice is sylvan sorcerer. Your end level free spells are summon spells.

[@anlak1318]

@@pennding3415 The point is that you have ONE Pokémon out, at any given time, like Ash has only Pikachu out.

[@michaelkenner3289]

Incense synthesizer is mechanically quite good. However the flaw people rarely comment on is that incense has no visual marker or animation. It makes it hard to enjoy using this ability when it doesn't feel like it's in the game, even if mechanically it can be quite useful.

[@havokmusicinc]

That's too bad, you'd think they would use a fog cloud or aura effect for these

[@Flagonborn]

@@havokmusicinc yeah like a recolored mindfog or some such

[@SlanderedGaming]

Nice that's a great point that I didn't really notice.

[@michaelkenner3289]

@@havokmusicinc Yeah, that would be good. I wouldn't even complain if they just used the bard song visual effect so there was something. Instead I have to look at the character portraits for an icon to appear and disappear as they enter the area. I even enjoyed it a lot more with just a plain blue circle showing the area of effect that I think came from the toy box mod.

[@Muckrackerz]

Assuming you start a new run and your intention is to play a support character, there's hardly anything better to pick than incense synthesizer. Early levels, it's a decent to great dps character due to bombs, and as you gain more augments to your incense, you become better and better at supporting. From a metagaming perspective, this jives really nicely with WOTR since early on you can provide dps assistance as your companions are still developing, while later on, when their builds take shape, you naturally transition to helping them be better at their jobs. Incense is also particularly great since it can help out with virtually any party comp. Lowering AC, saving throws, giving out really powerful statuses like nauseated - it's super easy to combine that kind of support with any sort of party composition. Add to that the fact that you can cast stuff like shield on allies, mass dispel with dispelling bombs, and have pretty irresistible damage with force bombs. Oh, and you're a great skill monkey due to high intelligence. It's absolutely not flashy on its own, but having 1 support like this is like greasing the engine of the 5 other companions since they'll succeed at everything they wanna do *so* much easier. Numbers don't really do it justice, but I highly recommend taking this archetype for a spin.

[@SlanderedGaming]

Yeah seems like it has a lot of fans thanks for providing this breakdown.

[@Muckrackerz]

@@SlanderedGaming Right back at you - thanks for the insightful video series! :)

[@Kammereer]

Re: Incense Synthesizer I agree that none of the existing companions make for good Synthesizer, so you need to make a merc. However, Synthesizers are far better than you think. The bonuses they provide are _alchemical_ bonuses, which is a very rare type that will stack with almost everything else you naturally have. Getting +3 to attack and damage rolls, or giving -6 to saves against Mind spells is pretty huge. But, again, needs to be a merc, so there'll never be a Synthesizer in my party.

[@SlanderedGaming]

Yup I agree it is solid but since nobody would pick it I rank it a C.

[@blazeultimo]

Can also use respec mod, recommend just doing that for more variety in your runs.

[@gamerstuff3458]

You said the magic words that I look for from build guides. “Pick what is fun for you”. Exactly. That’s what these games are all about 👍

[@SlanderedGaming]

100%. Wringing your hands over what is most powerful is a waste of time unless that is exactly what is fun for you.

[@theshatteredsaga3965]

I always viewed the incense synth like one of the Greek Orthodox preists swinging their censor around like maniac.

[@SlanderedGaming]

I hadn't even thought about that but it's a GREAT analogy.

[@mattjharrisyahoo]

Alchemist bombs don't suffer from Spell Resistance. So combine bombs with the appropriate ascendant element gives really good ability to blast high level mobs. I use Toybox for gestalt classing and alchemist is a nice class to combine with.

[@LameMule]

Just now getting into the game and being hit with the wall of choices, this is an amazing series. I've already gone through a few others but thought I should drop a big thanks for putting in all this work and excellent explanations. Many thanks and much appreciation.

[@SlanderedGaming]

It 's my pleasure!

[@Mattyice402]

Really liking what I see in this community.

[@SlanderedGaming]

Glad to hear it!

[@jezebel8551]

Yaaaaaaay! You're back! You were missed!

[@SlanderedGaming]

Good to be back!

[@endisbegun27]

really appreciate this video series. i love this game, and like to think that i'm at least a little smarter then your average animal at the zoo, but holy hell is it complex

[@SlanderedGaming]

Yeah there's a ton of layers and oftentimes they are not clearly laid out.

[@seanpatrick9852]

Looking forward to the rest of this video series!!!

[@Alorand]

So excited for this series.

[@t2av159]

Incense synth. Can shut down powerful demons/undead with the sacred Incense. Give it the death con bardiche. Now you have a reach, bomb throwing, spells and CC in one class

[@JohnnyCarvin]

Really appreciate this series of videos! Just starting to get into Pathfinder WotR, what an amazing game!

[@SlanderedGaming]

Awesome! Glad you have found the series useful and that you are enjoying the game!

[@jerekheadrick3379]

9:25 "I had a blast" was right there.

[@SlanderedGaming]

😂😂😂

[@Idlemage]

Alchemist was an interesting class in kingmaker

[@Akaritomi]

My kingmaker MC was an air elemental specializing in Abjuration. I prebuffed a small army of summons and literally TORE through otherwise tough battles.

[@AncroKT]

This is great and I'm looking forward to the discussions. One thought: you might want to make that upfront information about how you're planning on ranking everything as the first video in the playlist that way you don't have to repeat it every time and can refer back to it, just feels cleaner than telling people to "go watch the Alchemist video", that might be confusing. Okay, that said, Alchemist! Grenadier and Preservationist are two of my favorite classes in the game. As you mentioned being able to throw amazingly powerful bombs as a Grenadier is a ton of fun, and it gets really crazy when you start adding in other effects like Dispelling the entire room, or causing them to be Nauseated. You mentioned Aeon for Preservationist but I would also add Azata in there - Life Bonding Friendship is very powerful with summons as well. I am surprised to see Vivisectionist as an A instead of an S, although with the current Age of Riding Animals maybe I'm not surprised, but Vivi Alch is simultaneously insane tankiness and DPS combined and I can't think of a Mythic path besides Devil where it doesn't just destroy. The part that I hate is that Vivi just straight up replaces Rogue, there's just... nothing better about Rogue to justify it's existence when Vivi exists, to the point where you grab Woljif whose whole STORY revolves around being an innate spellcasting Rogue and slam him straight into Vivi. We'll have a similar discussion when we get to Bloodrager Primalist, so if that's the reason Vivi gets slightly reduced I can live with that. All that said Alchemist and it's classes are some of the most flavorful and fun in Pathfinder 1e and it's my go-to recommended class for any beginner because it can give you a taste of anything you might want to try.

[@SlanderedGaming]

I created a playlist for the ranking series and put Alchemist up top. I think Vivi is great but I don't think it makes the game faceroll easy which is why I did not give it an S.

[@awesome27677]

yes, my fave class being reviewed :) good stuff. hope the vacation was good!

[@SlanderedGaming]

I had a great time thank you!

[@fuzhead22]

Love your content. Thanks for this series!

[@SlanderedGaming]

My pleasure!

[@chrispaul7595]

Trickster grenadier with force bomb is a riot

[@Greymanelorander]

Good series, boss. Been really enjoying it.

[@SlanderedGaming]

Thank you! Glad to hear it!

[@alex-uw4mm]

welcome back. also now i feel like making a pokemon run through the game... prolly not on a high difficulty ^^;

[@VestigialLung]

Currently playing through Kingmaker with a vivisectionist, dual wielding, and it’s a hell of a lot of fun. There’s a couple of things I’d do differently, and I’ll probably eventually hit the respec button to clean those things up (misread a feat leaving me with a completely wasted feat in my build being the primary one), but even with a less than ideal build, I’m cranking out damage by popping haste, and flanking.

[@DaveHelios99]

Rowdy rogue + trickster into legend + vivisectionist. GG.

[@SlanderedGaming]

Oh yeah that sounds like a good time!

[@valdrin3529]

I like that minus to reload accessory on Argenta, at end game her full auto attack was up to 12 rounds after a few buffs with out wildfire. There's a few good upgrades for Ulfer in the shops in chapter 4 2 helmets just not sure best way to get vendor rep

[@SlanderedGaming]

I'll let you now after I finish Act 4. :)

[@valdrin3529]

@@SlanderedGaming stupid phone did switch videos this was supposed to be on your Ulfer one.

[@papervoxels]

I was watching KZbin from my roku device on my TV, and the video title got cut off at "Ranking 199 Classes", so I went into this wondering how you managed to rank 199 classes in 15 minutes 😆 I wasn't aware of the Alchemist changes in Wrath of the Righteous, which is too bad, since I was also a big fan of Grenadier in Kingmaker 😔 I think I've left this comment before in one of your other videos, but in case i didn't: any time I multiclass a character in one of these games, i like to create my own fiction for my character's journey through those classes. So in Kingmaker I created a character that I called a Thunderlord (I didn't name the character that, but it was the title I would give each of my saves when playing as that character), which mechanically is just a Blue Dragon Bloodline Sorcerer and Scaled Fist Monk with the Dragon Disciple prestige class, but for me is the story of a person awakening to their Ancient Draconic blood and learning to master it through discipline, ultimately becoming the manifestation of the storm itself 🙂 For games like this, flavoring is my jam 😁 Looking forward to the next one!

[@SlanderedGaming]

Nice if I feel like multiclassing works on another one of my builds I'll definitely do that.

[@ryanzz1357]

Appreciate you man

[@notalefty999]

Incense synthesiser may not be an appealing main character, because honestly, who wants to play support. But that's true of a pure alchemist regardless of the archetype. To be honest, bombs are not a great option even for alchemists. Built correctly, an incense synthesiser using cognotogen and death's consonant can deal significantly more damage than other alchemists using bombs, and without limitation. The damage scaling of bombs is not competitive with weapon damage in this game. Party wide significant bonuses, and nausea which works against undead and demons, are really powerful effects. A vivesectionist will deal more damage, but incense synthesiser is probably the best archetype of an admittedly mediocre class.

[@Kammereer]

>But that's true of a pure alchemist regardless of the archetype Vivisectionist is a better rogue than Rogue. Vivisectionist 20 is perfectly viable, and I played one for my Swarm run.

[@notalefty999]

@@Kammereer Well rogue honestly isnt particularly good. I never claimed the class isnt viable, but alchemist, including vivisectionist, is a support class. If you arent interested in making buffs like shield and transformation touch rather than personal, there isnt a good mechanical reason to take the class. There are way better options for melee damage dealers, and as an offensive spell caster, its options are essentially nil.

[@Kammereer]

@@notalefty999 It's a 3/4 BAB sneak attacker with mutagens and support spells. Is pure vivisectionist hyper-optimal? No. But none of the classes are, except for some full casters. Vivisectionist will still outdamage a Mutation Warrior or really any Fighter, and is the perfect base for any sneak attack build, like an Arcane Trickster. Not everything is a crit-fisher Sword Saint. Not everything needs to be.

[@notalefty999]

@@Kammereer No, it wont. This game is massively skewed towards crits, which sneak attacks are not multiplied by, and AB is a serious challenge for much of the game. A mutation warrior, assuming the gloves which increase weapon training by a further +2 equipped, will have an effective +11 AB and +15 damage (or +25 damage where DR wouldnt otherwise be bypassed) more attacks per round, and an increased multiplier at level 20, when compared to the vivisectionist. Alternatively, its +10 AB and +20 or 30 damage with power attack factored in. If taking mythic sneak attack, the sneak attacks will be worth 38.5 on average per hit, and this is not multiplied on crit. Even without trickster, a high threat range weapon will crit 30% of the time for a x3 multiplier for vivisectionist, and x4 for mutation warrior. And the mutation warrior is getting 1 more attack per round, a massive 50% increase in chance to hit (this is in absolute terms, not proportional, so a 20% chance becomes 70% not 30% for example), and 20-30 more damage per swing (and this bonus is multiplied on crit). Vivi only does more damage if you assume every hit lands and you never crit. This is obviously not realistic. The mutation warrior will hit and confirm crits far more often and do vastly more damage on a crit. In any realistic fight, it wont be a close call. Mutation warrior does more damage hands down. Also, its a terrible choice for an arcane trickster. The arcane trickster's main feature is not sneak attack, its full arcane caster spell progression, that effectively heavily buffs ray spells in exchange for 1 level of caster progression lost to rogue. There is no way you want to take arcane trickster and gimp your AB progression, mutagen bonus and medical discoveries for virtually nothing in return. You get a few rounds of impromptu sneak attack a day, and that's it. The only good arcane trickster is one which is using a full arcane caster spell book, with a focus on either battering blast or scorching/hellfire ray, with the latter being better in this setting due to gear and ascendent element fire.

[@WildFungus]

@@Kammereer I mean, vivisectionist kinda trails off after 4 levels in it, grand cognatogen is okay I guess but what are you doing playing a spellcaster lich or being a rogue?

[@mtaur4113]

I find the overall system a little limiting. Because a lot of class perks only scale by class level, it hobbles some classes' ability to multiclass. So instead they end up having to create tons of subclasses that encapsulate what a multiclass would look like, if the core abilities were allowed to scale. I would love to see a different system balanced around true multiclassing, with fewer outright traps and one-point-wonder dead-ends. Especially on harder modes, you can't just follow your nose, and you have to look up min-max builds and tons of particular interactions. You can get away with being a little sloppy on lower or custom difficulty, but then the game sometimes is really easy and then random fights will blindside you with unanticipated difficulty spikes. Most of what's done with subclasses could in principle be done by multi-classing, but the particular class combo would suck due to everything scaling off of class level so much. I would just love to see a smaller number of classes that can genuinely be taken together but still scale somehow, by whatever balancing mechanism fits. Overall it's a great series with a lot of ambition, and I can't discount that at all. But the usual woes about D&D meticulousness is still there, and the Mythic levels crank it up over 9000.

[@SlanderedGaming]

Yeah I am really interested to see what the Warhammer system is like in comparison.

[@mtaur4113]

@@SlanderedGaming I haven't looked into it because it failed the first vibes test for me, but I might give it a look if you do some content in the future. You really seem to have your hands full for now with this new series, though. Wow.

[@flipperflapper6682]

Personally I find it harder to find a campaign that lets me just play a planned party with planned char in this game. Other than the Midnight Isle, it takes too long to even get to play multiple OC..

[@SlanderedGaming]

You feel like the game forces you to switch around your party too much?

[@jamesnewman7509]

IMO, you ranked Alchemist a bit high. To my eye, it should be 'C' - because that's the grade yous said is for classes where there's nothing really wrong with it, but there's no reason to take it, as another choice does it better. Well, as you said, Grenadier is a better alchemist. Not by a huge amount, but it is a straight upgrade, so there's no reason to be a base Alchemist. Like Bloodragers and Primalists, the archetype is the better option every time. The other thought I had was regarding vivisectionist. Now, I only played around with it a bit at high levels through a respec to try it out, but I think it might be worth in some cases grading archetypes differently, depending on the difficulty. On Normal, a 3/4 BAB frontliner with mediocre health like the Vivi will utterly shred enemies, with their lower AC. On Core, against the higher ACs, and facing harder attacks, they will struggle more. Insurmountable? No, but I do feel like difficulty affects the inter-class balance - on Normal, I believe full-BAB classes 'overshoot', and don't need all their bonuses to hit, and classes which sacrifice some bab for spells/utility are better off. On harder difficulties, the bab is needed more and more and the balance shifts more towards full-bab classes who can hit reliably. That's more idle musing, really, but stuff like the Kineticist's 'auto-hit' abilities (deadly earth and cloud) becomes exponentionally more useful the harder enemies are to hit, and vice versa.

[@SlanderedGaming]

You are correct regarding Alchemist ranking and while I didn't comment on this video beforehand, I did take that feedback into account with Arcanist and Barbarian. Thank you.

[@NorroTaku]

I love bombs But after like 2 fights I run out Lol

[@phantomvulpe791]

Well you don't have to be evil to be viv. You can be like me a CN who likes to mutate himself to be the perfect being

[@SlanderedGaming]

😂 Good point.

[@hggpi]

Wait an rpg game with 199 classes? Oh man this is gonna cost some money...

[@SlanderedGaming]

Yeah there's a lot going on in this game. LOL

[@wladcaotchlani]

You outperformed yourself Mr. Gustavo Fring. I love you