Patreon Q&A - September 11th, 2021

[@coscorrodrift]

That input-output comparison of language learning vs other skills and the frame in general is so interesting. Hadn't ever really considered it, I've been following a writer I like who also played in a band and plays music, and he does say that practicing while paying a lot of attention to the sound, and with a "there's no wrong sounds" mindset (Victor Wooten talks about this I think), that is , not focusing on the mistake having been made, but focusing on the disonnance and trying to "solve" it by playing a note that sounds right afterwards, has been game-changing. There's something more to just the output vs input and maybe more to the relationship between the two in that case, but it reminded me of it.

[@tommyhuffman7499]

I also did tons of passive listening in the beginning, and it helped.

[@vanessasmith9646]

I have the same concern. Honestly, I think easier input to build a foundation in the beginning has helped me more than anything. I feel I wasted a l of time passively listening to input that was too hard

[@misteryes2698]

My first 2k words i learned without anki I just looked for at least 150 sentences and then i just read them for a whole week. I did it every day for 6 mths

[@coolbrotherf127]

That's interesting, but I definitely would just rather do Anki.

[@Alec72HD]

​@@coolbrotherf127 I never understood the need for Anki. After switching to MONOLINGUAL dictionaries it seems I never forget a word I look up. When a word appears in a content I LIKE, I look up it's definition and usually never forget it. My memory was terrible when I was using translation.

[@coolbrotherf127]

@@Alec72HD Monolingual definitions are great and I use them all the time, but are entirely useless for beginners who don't know anything yet. When people first start learning a new language, it's overwhelming and hard to remember even common words because those words aren't common words for them yet. Anki is a great tool for beginners to build up common vocabulary quickly to get out of that beginner hole and move onto more interesting things like reading books or watching TV shows. It's just a tool that helps the brain to try to remember stuff efficiently in a more targeted way than regular language usage, as the frequency of review can be optimized. It's no replacement for actually using the language, but there's a reason why a lot of successful language learners use Anki to speed up the process. Our brains learn and remember things based on frequency and emotional connection. Not every word can have a strong emotional connection, so frequency is the preferred way. That's what Anki does best.

[@Alec72HD]

@@coolbrotherf127 Thanks for this insight. In a language learning community the usefulness and advantages of monolingual dictionaries are not understood. In English we have dictionaries like Longman with definitions adapted for learners of English. If a nation wants others to learn their language they should develop monolingual dictionaries for beginners.

[@treali]

@@Alec72HD The absolute fastest way to learn a language is to learn as much vocabulary and grammar point as you can through Anki. Only comprehensible input matters and people talking about passive input is just selling bs. You can amass around 4500 vocabulary in around 225h total (learning word + review in Anki) which will get you to N3. Grammar would probably take 30h. All in all you spent 255h to reach N3 vocab and grammar. I learned over 50 words per day + the kanji I needed to learn at the same time. I can see a word for 30-60seconds and then I will have 90% retention rate. Some tell you that it will take over 2000h to get to N3 level. It is simply not true. Once you got the vocab done and you start immersing, you will very quickly learn reading and listening. You can reach N3 with probably around 500h in total by using Anki hardcore and then immersing yourself. Comprehensible input is 20x more effective than input where you know less than 50% of what is said. The main problem is not that Anki is not effective, the problem is boredom. Immersion from the beginning is for people who does not have the discipline to memorize things by themselves. I reached N3 in little over 3 months by doing this method. I had 3 months to learn before I went to UTokyo for my phd exchange.

[@nendoakuma7451]

It really does seem to be tougher for most older people to learn to use new technology. Many of my older coworkers do not find it intuitive at all, whereas younger ones usually understand immediately. Language learning tends to be the same (unless they’ve centered their life around it for decades)

[@myselfme767]

How old? My mother learned perfect Greek in her 50s. She learned it super fast as well. Do you know who Steve Kaufmann is?

[@nendoakuma7451]

@@myselfme767 i said “some people,” I didn’t say “everyone.” I know who Steve Kaufmann is, but he has dedicated his whole life to learning languages so he’s not really representative. My dad is a retired tech worker in his eighties. He doesn’t have many problems with tech because he’s been doing it since he was in his kate thirties or early forties, but he’s not too representative either. There are certainly people who are in their fifties or older who have no problems, but in my experience it seems a lot more common for them to have issues learning brand new methods and skills that are unrelated to previous things they have learned than it does with younger people.

[@ファイブ宇陀尻]

i'm watching this as English immersion😂

[@kathiaponcefausto7825]

Me too 😅

[@Alec72HD]

Watching this to apply it to English teaching and coaching. Mostly non English speakers want to reach near native English, not the other way around.

[@anbur9197]

Ah, Matt speaks so fast that it’s impossible to shadow him. Dammit!

[@coachwalk7485]

And all the native English speakers would say Matt speaks average to slow. But I feel your pain as every native Spanish speakers sounds so fast to me.

[@nidhishshivashankar4885]

@@coachwalk7485id say he is a bit quick but not fast

[@WhishoMH]

Yeey! :)

[@ericbwertz]

Great stuff... again.

[@notalot22]

@41:38 no, as infants (and toddlers), we learned language not at native adult speeds (which is what is being referenced in the question and the answer), but at very slowed speeds and with exaggerated emphasis (see: parentese). I do agree thought that slowing down recorded audio generally distorts the sound.

[@larrybardwell8461]

Not really, you do realize that maybe 10% or less of direct interaction with infants, toddlers, is slowed down and made easy for them. The majority of the time probably 95% of everyday is adults talking to each other normally. So the infant, toddler, and young kid are constantly immersed and surrounded by adults speaking to one another or other people normally. Listening to tv shows like cartoons are not slowed down. A toddler is always around family and friends of family talking around them at normal speed not dumbed down. I have an 11 year old and rarely talk slowly maybe a few minutes out of the day that's it. Anytime the tv is on and a kid is hearing it it's not slowed down or dumbed down.

[@Tyler-Al]

9m

[@Tyler-Al]

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[@Tyler-Al]

22m