No Purgatory

June 20th, 2023
Father Josiah Trenham
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---LINKS---
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Praying for Those in Hell (video Father references)
• Praying for Those in Hell
The Journey of the Soul after Death
• The Journey of the Sou...
The Nicene Creed: An Introduction
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The Nicene Creed is the singular and universal statement of faith of the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church. It possesses complete authority in the Orthodox Church and is recited in every Divine Liturgy, and daily in the prayers of the faithful. In these lectures, the Christian faith is summarized, and the content of the Creed itself is examined so that the “faith once delivered to the saints” can be known, embraced, and lived.
Lecture 1 The History and Use of the Nicene Creed
Lecture 2 The Almighty God
Lecture 3 Jesus Christ, the Son of God
Lecture 4 The Holy Spirit
Lecture 5 The One Church
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[@myeyeshearyou]

Ty Fr Josiah…as an Orthodox catechumen…(transitioning from Evangelical)…I can’t even begin to tell you how good this makes me feel…the first time I learned I could pray for our loved ones who have passed on…whether or not in the Lord…I rushed to my room, fell on my knees and prayed for my beloved sister and earthy father…this was only the beginning…now I have what I call my “prayer hit list”…which keeps building, the more word gets around that I will help pray for anyone who asks…I have profound hearing loss…and I can’t have quality conversations anymore…but I sure can pray…”Lord Jesus Christ, son of God…have mercy on us sinners!”

[@orthodox1717]

Glad you found Orthodoxy. God be with us. ☦️

[@animula6908]

God bless you!

[@George_Eréthion]

Glory to God

[@lindaphillips4646]

Glory to God for the way that you DO hear! Don't ever be dissuaded or disheartened from that new faith and joy by any stumbling-block comments left anywhere by anyone.. That we can pray for the departed and that the SAINTS can truly hear us and pray for us were deeply important things for me to learn. To ask saints, such as St. Paul, to help me hear and to help me better understand what he wrote is amazing.. (i should be more diligent in doing that) ..to cross such times and distances..without a second of delay... Glory to God. Let us know what happens to you.☦☦

[@Lilly0170]

Please pray for the salvation of my dad Zhelyo who passed away 😢😢

[@yankeeluver100]

As a Catholic, I appreciate this video. Thank you for elucidating the Orthodox position on such an important issue, Father Josiah Trenham.

[@illustratoriusrex5949]

I am evangelical and am moving toward Orthodoxy. I am still stumbling and struggling with some parts but hope to learn and overcome.

[@bendietrees]

God bless you on your path my friend ❤️🙏🏻🌈

[@orthodox1717]

God bless you on your journey to Orthodoxy. 🙏☦️

[@lindaphillips4646]

Stay on the Royal Path. The Lord and His Church and His Saints will gently teach you in due time.. It all will begin to make beautiful sense. Glory to God.!☦

[@cozzwozzle]

Take it slowly.

[@myeyeshearyou]

May God bless and protect you on your journey thru Orthodox…get ready to draw closer to the Alpha and Omega…the Almighty…Lord, Jesus Christ our God…have mercy on us…and save us!

[@LoganJP0120]

Thank you, Father. St. Marks quotes are a comfort to the soul of a young man struggling with past sin.

[@-SRM-]

Just a share a bit on progress against my own sin (perhaps it will help?) Again and again I find how I was falling again and again to sin. When I fought against it, it seemed only a matter of time until the will diminished. Again showing my lack of faith. Until. Something occurred to me. There was an aspect of weakness I had neglected. That was the willingness to suffer. That sad state of our fallenness that to deny our sin, to actively choose the righteous way of our King, would cause us suffering, but we are told of such. I often thought of suffering caused from without, but so much less so from within. By God's grace it has helped me immensely. My will is oriented towards accepting suffering instead of forcing myself to not act sinfully. I now choose, willingly, to suffer my concupiscence and have grown from it. Best wishes-

[@owainystlyg8215]

@@-SRM- great words, thank you. I am sure they will be of immense help to many including myself.

[@Di-Pi]

I knew a Catholic nun and priest who said Purgatory is like a heavenly hospital. That made sense to me.

[@ninjason57]

Anyone can say anything to make an idea easier to swallow. Doesn't mean it's true.

[@NickVTA]

Heavenly hospital where you're punished for leftover menial sins? That does not sound like a hospital

[@theodoreperkoski1951]

Here is something that we never realized. Jesus and the Apostle Paul Prayed for the Dead. When, Jesus' Foster Father, St Joseph, died, Jesus remembered him in Prayer. Paul never said do not pray for the dead, but do not give yourselves over to grief.

[@Cardnim]

Biblical reference please

[@marcuschung2]

2 Timothy 1:16-18 (RSV): “May the Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me; he was not ashamed of my chains, [17] but when he arrived in Rome he searched for me eagerly and found me - [18] may the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that Day - and you well know all the service he rendered at Ephesus.” (cf. 4:19) About Jesus’s foster father, it can be safely assumed because Jesus grew up with Jewish traditions and customs. Like being in Soloman’s temple for the feast of the dedication and singing the Halel Psalm (which honors his mum ).

[@lindaphillips4646]

@@marcuschung2 thank you.. I never had realized what St. Paul was saying there. That he was praying for someone departed..

[@marcuschung2]

@@lindaphillips4646 thanks! another cool fun fact is that the household of Onesiphorus is mentioned again in 2 Tim 4:19. HOWEVER, 2 verses down mentions Linus, who is recorded as one of the popes in Against Heresies Book 3, Chapter 3, Verse 3.

[@infowolf1]

@@marcuschung2 so? the papacy of RC wasn't the papacy bacl then, term pope or papa was used by most bishops back then.

[@archieshuford9534]

This man keeps me grounded! Healthy!

[@franciscolaureano7703]

Thank you, father! This helps many people and adds to the catechism of we Orthodox. 💗☦️

[@iii-ei5cv]

As a new Roman Catholic I had to affirm the teaching of purgatory but now I see the problem with that

[@IrishEddie317]

As a former Catholic, I invite you to come all the way home. Orthodoxy awaits you.

[@dr.cherylkayahara-bass2571]

I can’t tell you how thankful I am for this, as a Roman Catholic, former evangelical Protestant , who does not and cannot accept any doctrine of purgatory as contrary to the grace of God as our source of salvation, (lest any man should boast-Ephesians), and as against the creed (the forgiveness of sins). I am an Augustinian scholar, and what you say he would be perfectly happy with. Keep preaching, Father!

[@ArmandoTheCatholic]

You cannot deny purgatory and remain a Catholic as you're denying a dogma. Purgatory doesn't deny the necessity of God's grace for salvation as the soul is already saved, but the soul needs to do penance for past sins committed as to satisfy God's justice.

[@EpistemicAnthony]

You cannot be a Catholic and deny Purgatory. You are contradicting the Pope and the Vatican, which is not acceptable and places you out of communion. If purgatory is troublesome for you, you should be Orthodox.

[@IrishEddie317]

​@@ArmandoTheCatholicYou didn't listen to what Father Josiah said, did you? The whole basis of purgatory, is based in the legal justice system of Roman Catholicism. We Orthodox don't believe in that and the Bible doesn't teach it. In Roman Catholicism, salvation is all about escaping punishment. In Orthodoxy, salvation is all about being healed. BIG difference!

[@christopherpavesi7245]

​@@IrishEddie317you still can't be Catholic and deny Purgatory.

[@IrishEddie317]

@christopherpavesi7245 I am not Catholic. I belong to the Church which Jesus founded upon the Apostles - Holy Orthodoxy.

[@Mr.C-you-later]

You where a huge help in me finding the true Church. My family and myself are forever grateful.

[@sophiamac9100]

"Divine Goodness conquers the idea of justice." This single sentence is really what fosters hope in forgiveness. When even you can't forgive yourself, the Love of God can. We are so small, weak and insignificant in the infinite sea of God's love. Thank you, dear Father, for your videos.

[@Lilly0170]

Please pray for the salvation of my dad Zhelyo who passed away...😢

[@billyoulis9031]

Coming to a year from him falling asleep in the lord. Make sure if you can, to make a koliva, so he may be forgiven and so we can always pray for him until our time of judgement. Eternal be his memory.

[@thomasshunuk3070]

Thank you for this. Not yet Orthodox, but this was very fascinating and enlightening.

[@angelandres08]

Great reflection dear Father, as always. May God grant you many years

[@herman-k7k]

The doctrines of Purgatory and Mortal and Venial sin kept me and my wife from joining the Catholic Church. We were in RCIA and weeks away from coming into the Church. I just couldn’t say “Yes and Amen” to those things. Several days later the word “Orthodox” popped into my mind and I started researching it. Now, thank God, we are Orthodox. Baptized and chrismated on June 3, 2023. God bless you, Father Josiah. You played a role in our conversion to Holy Orthodoxy.

[@HolyTrinitysaveus]

Your testimony brings so much joy!i am also glad you remember when you became a member of Christ's Holy Body and took the chrism of the Holy Spirit!

[@mega3whatt]

Glory to God for his true Church bearing good works. Father please as the Theotokos to intercede when we just can’t take it anymore.

[@bakerelkins469]

These have been very comforting. Thank you Father.

[@barbaravandriel1179]

Always a blessing to hear your holy words on the Faith. Thank you, Father.

[@makingsmokesince76]

Thank you for this very informative and edifying word Fr. Josiah.

[@Chrisc-sn6uh]

Glory to God! 🙏

[@PETERJOHN101]

Your discussion was very helpful, even comforting. God bless and keep you.

[@Ortho_pilgrim]

Excellent video Abouna, thank you and God bless you!

[@rlhicks1]

That was an amazing teaching. Thank you.

[@motzoh]

Yes Father, this is a great summary, thank you.

[@mosesking2923]

The Eastern Orthodox Synod of Jerusalem (1672) declared: "The souls of those that have fallen asleep are either at rest or in torment, according to what each hath wrought" (an enjoyment or condemnation that will be complete only after the resurrection of the dead); but the souls of some "depart into Hades, and there endure the punishment due to the sins they have committed. But they are aware of their future release from there, and are delivered by the Supreme Goodness, through the prayers of the Priests and the good works which the relatives of each do for their Departed, especially the unbloody Sacrifice benefiting the most, which each offers particularly for his relatives that have fallen asleep and which the Catholic and Apostolic Church offers daily for all alike. Of course, it is understood that we do not know the time of their release. We know and believe that there is deliverance for such from their direful condition, and that before the common resurrection and judgment, but when we know not."[ Isn't this viewpoint of the Orthodox Church literally the exact same concept as purgatory?

[@DevinMork]

This has been incredibly helpful, especially the bit on 1 Corinthians. That's been a passage I haven't had a complete rationale around in favor or against.

[@Cross0987]

Thank you Father ☦. Highly recommend the Nicene Creed Course 🙏

[@docrofo2573]

I thank the Lord for showing me your videos and a few other outspoken Fathers that have convinced me through their talks like this and the guidance of the Holy Spirit that EO is the way. I’m looking to become a catechumen here soon

[@drakebeaven3109]

Thank you father I have been looking for and needed to hear this teaching and contrast, Glory to the Triune God

[@Mrkevi123]

Thank you father! Your videos are a godsends.

[@janetweigel]

Thank you Father. So very helpful!

[@catherinetsivitzis847]

Thank you father. In answer to your question, yes, it has been very helpful. I have always wondered about this.

[@dga2135]

Hi Fr Josiah. Greetings of Love, Peace, and Mercy be with, in, and through you in the Precious Name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Amen. This was very important and helpful for All Souls to prepare. I can see clearly why the communion between the East AND the West had to be done in one soul by the Hands of God Most High in preparation for the beginning of the end. The gravity of this Holy Message is taking effect as I continue to witness... Amen

[@Oreilly_1980]

“But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.” Hebrews 9:27

[@LadyMaria]

That's not Hebrews 9:27. This is: "27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,"

[@burntmarshwiggle]

This was helpful. Thank you .

[@Hopeternal316]

So deep gives one much to consider, reflect upon, and examine motive…

[@jamesmonahan9408]

Yep, 2 Maccabees speaks of praying for the souls of the dead.

[@elKarlo]

I agree. As a former Catholic who was Protestant for a while, thinking about even praying for the dead is not something one does. This is a topic that is uncomfortable and as you rightly said, often overlooked.

[@KingaHorsztynska]

We, Catholics, don'' t pray for the dead because only body is dead and soul lives for ever. Soul is immortal and lives after the death of thd body.. if we die in sinns , we go to purgatory to clean our soul and it doesn'' matter if Lord Jesus has died on the Cross. He forgave our sins on the Cross but it doesn't mean that we go to heaven. We had a Free Will given by God and we are responsible for what we have done . Purgatory DOES EXIST AND IT IS NOT EMPTY. There are many people and they wait for prayers . If you don'' t believe in purgatory , you will be totally surprised about it's existance after the death.

[@NickVTA]

​@@KingaHorsztynskahonest question...Jesus talked a little bit about heaven and sure talked a lot more about hell, I don't recall him talking about purgatory. Outside of second Maccabees, what scripture references would you have in the Old testament, and even knew that would really pinpoint purgatory?

[@cabellero1120]

Purgatory is Purifying Love. The souls are immersed in the light and fire of God:s mercy and infinite love and holiness. Purification not from Sin, but from attachment and effect From Sin. A child is outside hitting baseballs with a bat. He breaks a neighbor's window with 1 of them. Although the neighbor forgives him, the child must make restitution for what he did. He must pay for the damage he caused. Sorrow is not always enough, a firm purpose of amendment is also necessary. Purgatory is not a prison, that's a medieval summation. Hebrews 12:29 states For Our God is a consuming fire.. The fire of justice snd mercy

[@etcwhatever]

The saints also say the most purified the soul is becoming the more they love and joy increase until they enter Paradise.

[@chrisobrien6254]

The baseball story doesn’t really prove anything…..it’s just a cute analogy to help exemplify a teaching that may or not be true. A Protestant could easily refute that analogy by saying “nope Jesus took care of that already; He paid the price for the broken window so we don’t have to”.

[@IrishEddie317]

​@@chrisobrien6254Thank you for saying that. The minute I heard that analogy. I knew it was wrong. Roman Catholics are fond of talking about "paying the price" and other such stuff until it cuts across their private agenda. And this Treasury of Merit stuff is utter nonsense. If comes from a legal basis and legal payment, then what more do you add to what Jesus Christ has done on the Cross? This is the difference between Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy. For Orthodoxy, it's not about legal payments and punishment. It's about healing us and healing our broken nature.

[@ninjason57]

Where are you getting your definition of purgatory?

[@justfromcatholic]

Dear Fr. Josiah, the following of what Augustine wrote: In his dread of those more serious misfortunes, the speaker disregards this life which causes him to weep and groan with its misery, and makes his entreaty: Rebuke me not, O Lord, in thy indignation [Psalms 38:1]. Let me not be among those to whom thou wilt say: Depart into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels [Matthew 25:41]. Nor chastise me in thy wrath [Psalms 38:1]. Do thou cleanse me in this life and make me such that I shall have no need to pass through the purifying flames prepared for those who will be saved yet so as by fire [1 Corinthians 3:15]. Why? Is it not because in this world they are building upon a foundation of wood, hay, stubble? If they constructed with gold, silver, precious stones, they would be safe from both kinds of fire, not only from the everlasting fire which will torment the wicked forever and ever, but also from that which will purify those who are to be saved by fire. For we are told: He himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire [1 Corinthians 3:15]. And because of the phrase shall be saved, that fire is not taken seriously enough. Clearly, although they will be saved by fire, yet that fire will be more grievous than anything a man is capable of bearing in this life. Augustine: Discourse on Psalms (Enarrationes in Psalmos) 37.3 English translation from Ancient Christian Writers, Vol. 30, page 330-331 While Augustine did not use the word purgatory he distinguished two kinds of fire, the everlasting fire that will torment the wicked forever and the purifying fire.

[@teacup3133]

Thank you for that. It is pretty clear-cut, but some just crossover parts of the Bible that don’t fit their narrative.

[@TheB1nary]

This was answered in the video lesson.

[@justfromcatholic]

@@TheB1nary no, he denied that Augustine taught such thing

[@cherryswirlchale9511]

He did say if it is possibly found in a father or two that it is a small minority position that shouldn’t be dogma.

[@justfromcatholic]

@@cherryswirlchale9511 is there minimum number to make something a dogma?

[@DerKirchenhocker]

“It is appointed unto men once to die, there after the judgement. “

[@rjyahin05]

Why do you pray for the souls then?

[@SimpleAmadeus]

During my 3 years as a Protestant, praying for the dead was a topic that confused me. I did not understand why people were so opposed to it, when nothing in the Bible seems to oppose it. The only thing I heard that resembled an argument was "it won't make a difference", which doesn't sound like a prohibition at all, and for which no scriptural backing was provided either.

[@glennargento4849]

The way I see it, the Latin of doctrine of purgatory is essentially equivalent to the Orthodox idea of temporary hell/hades, especially if we understand the “fire” and “time” in purgatory to be allegorical.

[@DrJoeyBean]

cool video. Many thanks for posting that.

[@pennybradshaw6908]

Hebrews 9v27 It is appointed for men once to die, and then the judgement

[@Oreilly_1980]

“He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, and they will bring offerings in righteousness to the Lord.” Isaiah 48:10

[@LadyMaria]

That's not Isaiah 48:10. This is: "Behold, I sold you, but not for silver; and I delivered you from the furnace of poverty."

[@Oreilly_1980]

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.” Corinthians 5:12

[@cabellero1120]

ALL Even Evangelicals!!

[@LadyMaria]

Not sure if you meant 1st or 2nd Corinthians. It's wrong though. 1 Cor. 5:12: "12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside?" 2 Cor 5:12: "12 For we do not commend ourselves again to you, but give you opportunity to boast on our behalf, that you may have an answer for those who boast in appearance and not in heart."

[@Sebastian-lu4yg]

I was confused about how on the one hand, the Orthodox believe that God being merciful means that punishment is no longer necessary, hence lack of a need of a purging fire, but on the other hand the soul goes to Hades to be punished for a time if the fruits of repentance have not been brought forth, or that a soul upon death faces tribulation by not going to be immediately with God. How is the Orthodox understanding different apart from the place or non place which the suffering for sins occurs for those who are not ready on their journey to be with God yet after death?

[@SaintHermione]

🌸☦️🌸

[@XyzWse001]

Purgatory (βασανιστήριον καθαριστήριον) is a temporary state and a place where the souls of those who are found in grace by special judgment, but are not pure enough in the sight of God, are purified until the final judgment. In ancient Christianity, the idea of purgatory was essentially denied by no one. Aërius in the 4th century only questioned the efficacy of intercession for the dead; likewise later the Waldensians. In the system of other heretics, there was hardly room for purification; as with the Manicheans, Gnostics, and Cathars, who only acknowledged the redeemed and the damned. Since the schism, the Greeks have stubbornly denied the possibility of purification, in opposition to the cardinal teaching of the great fathers of Alexandria, but not the punitive sufferings, and intercession for the dead. Since the 13th century, some of them have denied the existence of purgatory. The position of the Greeks implies the idea that the soul's fate is only ultimately decided at the Last Judgment; their sufferings and the prayers for them prepare a merciful judgment for them. The Christian tradition indeed bears enough witness when it prays steadfastly for the deceased from the beginning. It was a profound conviction that injustice would be done to the martyr who prayed for him. But that someone should pray for the damned was ruled out; therefore, they could only pray for those who were not yet before God, but were preparing to go there; on whom intercession could still have an effect. From this kernel of practical confession grew the formal doctrine of purgatory; meanwhile, it had to contend with more than one foreign element (Bellarmin. 1, 11.). The first explicit witness is the author of Acta Pauli (around 160): Thecla prays for the deceased Falconilla that she may reach the place of the righteous (Acta Pauli 28.). Tertullian speaks especially firmly about the necessity of intercession for the dead and the efficacy of the Mass offered for them (Tertul. Cor. mil. 3; Monog. 10; Anima 58; Resur. 42.). The Passion of Perpetua and Felicitas (probably written by Tertullian) contains a charming vision: Perpetua sees her seven-year-old brother, Dinocrates, who died of cancer without baptism, in a dark place, with a distorted face, in great thirst. "This caused me great grief. I woke up and was aware that he was suffering. But I was filled with hope that I might be able to procure him some relief. I prayed for him night and day, and with tears persistently entreated God to be gracious to hear me. One day when we were suffering in the hard prison, I had another vision: The same place from which I saw Dinocrates step forward was now very bright; my brother was in clean and good clothes; on his face, where the cancer had been, you could only see a scab. The water vessel (which in the previous vision was much higher than the boy's stature) was now so low that he could easily reach it, and on the edge stood a full drinking cup. When Dinocrates quenched his thirst from it, he went off to play like a child. I woke up and recognized that he had been freed from his punishment." Cyprian speaks quite clearly (Cypr. Epist. 55, 20; cf. 59, 18; Mortal. 26.): "It is one thing to ask for forgiveness, another to enter glory. It is one thing to improve for sins through long torments and to purify oneself through prolonged fire; another is to cast off all punishments by suffering (martyrdom)."

[@XyzWse001]

According to Clement of Alexandria (Clemens Al. Strom. VII 12, 78.), true gnosis includes being merciful to those dead who are still atoning for their sins. According to Origen (Origen. Princip. II 10, 4-6; 11, 3; in Num hom. 26; in Mt hom. 30; Cels. IV 13.), every soul passes through the fire after death; the wicked are engulfed by it, the righteous are saved. This sketchy overview sufficiently refutes the view of rationalist dogma historians as if the doctrine of purification had crept into the Church through Origen. However, it cannot be denied that Origen mixes this teaching with apocatastatic elements, just like his great disciple, Gregory of Nyssa (Nyssen. Cat. 8; Anima et resurr.). The great Greek church fathers (Basil. in Is 9, 19; Chrysost. in Phil hom. 3, 4; in 1 Cor hom. 41, 4; Cyril. Hier. Catech. 5, 9; Epiphan. Haer. 75 (against Aërius); Cyril. Al. wrote a separate work "Against those who boldly claim that they do not need to celebrate Mass for the faithful deceased" M 76, 1423.) otherwise agree with the Latins in the belief that prayers are needed for the dead who are purified in suffering. The Latin teaching is rich and clear. Ambrose, whose eschatology is justly praised among the initiated, expressly teaches that the imperfect, who are not damned, go to the place of purification after the particular judgment, where they must be purified with sufferings; the remaining living can help them with prayers, Masses, alms, and funeral feasts (Ambr. De bono mortis 45-8.). Ambrose, Jerome, and Ambrosiaster believe that all believers will eventually be saved after such purifications. Saint Augustine speaks much and definitively (August. Confess. IX 11-13; Enchir. 69 109-10; Civ. Dei XXI 13, 16; 26, 2; XXVI 2; XXVII 5; Gen. Manich. II 20; Sermo 172, 2, 2.); his disciple, Caesarius of Arles (Caesar. Arel. Sermo 104, 1.) precisely states who awaits purgatory; Pope Gregory the Great (Gregor. M. Moral. IX 34; Dial. IV 39.) emphasizes the "fire" of purification. Since then, the doctrine of purgatory has been unanimous among the Latins; the Greeks gradually deviated from the common ancient tradition.

[@maryisaac7013]

Those who reject Father God’s creations are condaming their own soul 😢 Repent and amend one's ways

[@anastunya]

I’ve been a Recovering Catholic for almost fifty years. Still learning how to pray with meaning. It’s a relief that when I complete my Confession with the Orthodox priest I feel truly forgiven, as it is Jesus that is forgiving me, not the RC priest. In the RC, one never feels truly forgiven, as one immediately does the “penance” which is the “sentence” to avoid purgatory. The phoniness of all this makes one not that bothered about going back to so-called “venial” sins. Which is another problem for the average goody-goody Roman Catholic, who is led to believe that they’re not much of a sinner at all, because all their deeds are “venial.” In contrast, Orthodox say, “I’m the First of Sinners” every time we are about to receive Holy Communion. Thanks Holy Spirit for leading me to the straight path to Jesus, the Orthodox Church. #NoPurgatory

[@brewcity2317]

I totally get your rage with the Catholic Church. I was there until I came across Traditionalist Catholics. Before then I only knew of Liberal and Conservative Catholics and I have a great deal of dislike for both. And I'm not insinuating Traditionalist Catholics would put out the flames of your rage against the Catholic Church, what I'm telling you is they unknowingly and unintentionally extinguished most my rage against the Catholic Church. I honestly don't know who is "right" in terms the authority of the Church, the Orthodox or the Traditionalist Catholics, I still remain confused. I see points of strength and weaknesses in both. But I do know the Catholic Church currently is in an internal civil war and there is some crazy and tragic stuff going on inside it. But my 1 recommendation to you, with respect to your comment about "no one ever feels..." in Catholic confession, that you speak for yourself and not for me and roughly 1 billion other Catholics. I'm already fed up with people in the USA telling me how I should feel, what wasn't a problem for me, all because the Democrats or Republicans haven't declared it a problem for x number of individuals.

[@sheilasmyth5874]

Wow! Your bias. Hostility, and-mis-information about the Catholic Church sounds bitter. What happened to you? What core incident(s), words, impression, interpretation caused this. Because the negative thoughts, attitudes do & will keep you from truly, FREELY embracing the Orthodox Faith which you seem to favor. My experienced as a 73 yo woman has been v/different. and I wish it had been yours. I have no objection to the Orthodox Faith. I pray that the RCC. & Orthodox Church can come together again. God bless

[@anastunya]

@@sheilasmyth5874 Do you also gaslight former Roman Catholics who were sexually abused?? You would rather not hear from us because it causes so much cognitive dissonance and you can’t handle the Truth of others’ experiences. Hope you repent before you pass on.

[@Dienekes678]

I'm sorry you never understood the Catholic Church. Pity.

[@thomasscott2553]

Orthodoxy is part of the catholic church. Just a bit lost.

[@michaelbarber5633]

Thank you Father for all your work. Especially being on the list of the online Orthodox “rebels” preaching truth and not ecumenism. God have mercy on us in these times

[@mingus445_gaming]

who else is on the list? and we must remember that it is the ecumenists who are the "rebels". True orthodoxy has remained the same

[@welp5970]

​​@@mingus445_gaming would say fr.Spyridon Bailey, and maybe Orthodox Ethos Excuse me brother but i dont know any other channels in English,im Greek

[@ervinromero8152]

The kneeling prayers for those in Hades, the soul's journey after death, the visions of the tollhouses, etc. all add up to a de facto belief in purgatory. Lump this one on the No Original Sin, No Assumption, No Transubstantiation pile for me.

[@Oreilly_1980]

Also, st john chrysostom wrote in the 5th century, hundreds of years before the RC Church clarified the doctrine of purgatory. st john chrysostom’s statement on divine Justice do not contradict the Catholic teaching of purgatory . Yes - the Catholic Church has been clarifying dogma for 2000 years - the Immaculate Conception, confession, the communion of saints All Christian Churches have done this ( Southern Baptists in the US are making a “profession of faith” right now) but not all have infallibility

[@Castellano87]

What about toll houses?

[@frankcook3612]

Many saints and theologians in the Catholic Church have speculated about the specifics of purgatory…but the speculation in those specifics is not necessarily “the teaching of the Catholic Church.” It’s interesting to note that Eastern Catholic Churches who share theological and spiritual tradition with the Orthodox generally don’t use the word purgatory nor are they required to in order to be in full communion with Rome.All they must accept is..1)there is a state of transition or transformation or “purification” en route to Heaven and 2)Our prayers help those in that condition. I personally think the differences in this area between Orthodox and Catholic is really just semantics.

[@jimmysheehan5496]

orthos love making a HUGE deal over semantics though. without that, they really don't have an identity in the west at least.

[@LadyMaria]

​@@jimmysheehan5496That's very uncharitable. To those who actually know the Faith the differences are major. This is one reason why the RCC as a whole is incoherent contradicting theologies.

[@jimmysheehan5496]

@@LadyMaria wrong

[@LadyMaria]

​@@jimmysheehan5496No, it's correct. It's part of why I left the RCC.

[@jimmysheehan5496]

@@LadyMaria you left for a stupid reason sorry

[@Yaz662]

Remember to watch the ads so this channel gets paid!

[@uwu-ol8pr]

✝️!!!

[@iwonazukowska7624]

If there is purgatory Jesus Christ Died For Nothing

[@INRIVivatChristusRex]

min 11:50 Rejection of Purgatory, but affirmation of the intermediate state?

[@forgingicehole4750]

Ortho - Tardy - D 🥴 This type or KZbin orthodoxy exists only to be Not Roman Catholic or any of the 23 or so Rites that exist making up the entire Catholic Church.

[@donhaddix3770]

Hebrews 9:27 ESV / 162 helpful votes And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,

[@JJ-dc7tt]

Good thing there was a Reformation. You detract from the sufferings, love and glory of Christ as soon as you begin to make your own atonement.

[@IrishEddie317]

Who said anyone was making their own atonement?

[@Oreilly_1980]

As a Roman Catholic, my family and friends all say “May the faithful departed, through the mercy of God rest in peace” after Grace before meals🙏🏻 Purgatory is not a foreign concept for even poorly catechized. I believe few Catholics grasp transubstantion…sadly. Very surprised to hear Orthodox Christians share the Protestant view of Divine Justice

[@Cobruh_Commander]

How is our view Protestant? They came long after us.

[@Oreilly_1980]

@@Cobruh_Commander Protestants don't believe in purgatory. Jews traditionally have "Gehenna", a place of purification before heaven (souls are supposed to spend about a year there paying for their misdeeds). Muslim beliefs vary but they have "Barzakh" in teh Quran which is a sort of limbo between life and death and a more purgatorial "aʿrāf", which is where sinful types have to be purified for heaven.

[@LadyMaria]

​@@Oreilly_1980We have Gehenna. It's permanent. It's hell, the lake of fire. Islamic beliefs don't matter.

[@NoahHolsclaw]

loved the video but as a "protestant" those of us in the confessional Lutheran church do pray for the dead and our confessions say that it is of great benefit>

[@LambsServant]

As an observant Jew, Our Lord would have believed in Purgatory. Now, can we see evidence of this in His teachings? The answer is, yes. He teaches it both implicitly and explicitly. Implicitly In Matt. 12:31-32 we read the following, 31 "Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." Now, Our Lord suggests that some sins can be forgiven since He states, "but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." This suggests that some sins can be forgiven in the next life. Let's eliminate a couple of possibilities. He cannot be referring to Heaven since those in Heaven are already forgiven and He cannot be referring to Hell since those in Hell are beyond forgiveness. The question now becomes, how is a person forgiven in the next life and where does this forgiveness take place? The only answer is Purgatory. Explicitly In Luke 12: 40-48 we read the following, 40 "You also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect." 41 Peter said, "Lord, are you telling this parable for us or for all?" 42 And the Lord said, "Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom his master will set over his household, to give them their portion of food at the proper time? 43 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. 44 Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions. 45 But if that servant says to himself, 'My master is delayed in coming,' and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and get drunk, 46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces and put him with the unfaithful. 47 And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating. 48 But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more." What can we gather form this passage? 1. This passage is referring to the time of death as is evidenced from v. 40 2. In verses 43-44 if the servant has been faithful to the master then he gets a good reward(Heaven). 3. If the servant was not faithful to the master then he will get Hell(verses 45-46. 4. Our Lord also offers two other possibilities. In verses 47 and 48 one servant got a severe beating while the other did not get a severe beating. These beatings are finite in nature. If this is not in reference to either Heaven or Hell then where are these beatings carried out in the afterlife? The only answer is Purgatory.

[@LambsServant]

@@GigiGhiba what is your proof for that?

[@paradoxington]

I’ve always thought the description of Purgatory sounds a whole lot like life on Earth

[@troyspiller]

I wouldn't see why this would be a reason not to share communion with each other. Both believe that there is a need to pray for the dead and that the dead are benefited by these prayers. There may be other reasons to remain in schism from each others Church, but I don't see how this justifies it. I pray for both Churches that they may be 1.

[@nuzzi6620]

I’m sure you mean well, but it would be wilful blindness to believe what you’ve just said. How can Orthodox Christians knowingly accept something we believe is outright false, merely for the sake of communion? Can truth ever be compromised for the sake of unity? A house divided cannot stand, and there’s no deeper division than that between truth and falsity.

[@Oreilly_1980]

“And in anger his master delivered him to the jailers, until he should pay all his debt. So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.” Revelation 21:8

[@LadyMaria]

That's not Revelation 21:8. This is: "But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

[@LadyMaria]

This is what you meant: Matthew 18:34-35 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him. 35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.” This is about forgiveness, repentance.

[@SATMathReview1234]

If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 1 Corinthians 3:15 KJV Father, as a Catholic I am deeply appreciative of almost all of your work. But where Orthodox depart from Catholics, here, the filoque, a few other small but important points, they depart from their own rich patristic and biblical heritage. The doctrine of purgatory is contained in Paul’s epistles, the parables of Our Lord: I tell thee, thou shalt not depart thence, till thou hast paid the very last mite (admittedly this is somewhat weaker) and the Fathers especially Gregory of Nysa and Augustine.

17:57 min and I get confused. Roman Catholics believe that purgatory will NOT save anyone, but cleanse them from sins. Salvation or damnation is determined during the time when one is still alive, and once death comes to a soul, there is nothing else to be done for their salvation. A soul is purgatory s a soul already saved. I never heard of any teachings of the Roman Catholic Church stating that purgatory is for the salvation of the souls. Maybe I understood it wrong in the video, please correct me if I'm wrong. I recently (almost 4 years ago) converted to the Roman Catholic faith and I am still learning. I am not able to do fully participate in the faith (mass and other rituals) as my husband has yet to start the annulment process in order for me to become fully initiated. It is a long path for me. But I truly appreciate the videos of Father Josiah. Thank you! Orthodox faith is beautiful!

[@docmonro322]

That passage is not the only one that implies the existence of a purgatory condition, there are more in the gospels (Matthew 5:26, Matthew 12:31-32), the one of the Macabees quoted at the begining by Father Josiah, etc.. As well St Gregory Nissa talks about it. By the way: Father Josiah complains in his video about an orthodox perspective on roman catholicism, that St Thomas Aquinas called the orthodox church "the greeks", but he does not stop to call to us "the latins". That is not a good example.

[@deogratias273]

And Luke 12:46-48. There is a difference between the one who is cut off and those who get a beating. Thanks for your post.

[@Lreystudios]

What’s frustrating for me is that a lot of Protestants don’t accept maccb. As inspired scripture so they just ignore it and disregards it’s content for leading them to conclusions about how they should conduct themselves as Christian’s or to get any tradition from it so then they disregard that scripture as a means to backing up that practice.

[@ferklibs]

Luther wanted to toss the book of James lol

[@akaMakdaddy]

I appreciate your teaching. How is one to understand the teaching of toll booths in orthodoxy? As a catholic it occurs as a purgatorial substitute. Luke's gospel in chapter 16 mentions 4 outcomes, 2 of which mention beatings that I understand as purgatorial. Please comment and God bless.

[@NickVTA]

Question? So what about the folks who were disobedient in the desert wilderness coming out of Egypt and they were not allowed to see the promised land? Seemed like God was really upset at them for their disobedience and unfaithfulness, or those others who are swallowed up Like korah or Achan and his family who were killed for disobedience? So after their death, would it be possible to have prayed for them so that their souls are saved? And is there any other verses outside of second Maccabees that supports prayers for the dead? Thank you In advance.

[@TedBruckner]

PEOPLE HAVE TO GO THRU THE PROVING / ASSAYING FIRE (timestamp 15 minute mark) : (the Septuagint) DANIEL 12:10 Many must be tested, and thoroughly whitened, and tried with fire, and sanctified; but the transgressors shall transgress: and none of the transgressors shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

[@Timotheous87]

When Fr. Josiah talks about the Protestant belief after death about the immediacy of going to heaven or hell why did he say “where they can fall out of paradise or get out of Hades” ? Wouldn’t that be the same thing as going to heaven or hell? Is he just reiterating or is there some distinction that he’s drawing here?

[@m.filmtrip]

I didn’t understand this either.

[@LadyMaria]

No. In Orthodox belief, after we die, and after the particular judgment, we all go to the same place (Hades/She'ol) to await the Resurrection and final judgment. All go to be in the Presence of God. It can be blissful for those in communion with God (Bosom of Abraham), or torture for those not in communion with Him. After the Resurrection and final judgment is when one goes to either the new earth/heaven or hell (Gehenna). So the Protestant idea that we go right on to heaven or hell for eternity isn't shared in Orthodoxy.

[@pamphilus3652]

If christ died for your sins then why do you have to go to hades for a while to be completely forgiven

[@jacfalcon]

Father (or anyone), where can I read the writings of StM ark of Ephasus?

[@FrJohnBrownSJ]

Father, I think you are sincere in your desire to shepherd your people. But you get Catholicism wrong. Your description of the doctrine of purgatory is a good example. To read in contemporary terms what Catholics believe, read John Paul II's General Audience from August 4, 1999. It would be an act of charity towards your Catholic brothers and sisters to put in the time. Christ's peace.

[@christianspraying1688]

Lets be honest. There are people we all know whose lives were messy, but not deserving of hell. They are saved but still need to be cleaned up a bit before they can fully participate with the saints. Purgatory is the hospital for the soul damaged by sin. Whether this takes a second or a hundred thousand years is meaningless in an eternal realm.

[@christianspraying1688]

It is clear purgatory has never been explained as a merciful, healing and loving process. Catholic do not believe it is a place, but a process. Read St John of the Cross or St Theresa of Avila of the stages of the conversion experience known as the purgative way that begins in this life but continues on in the afterlife like as part of the unitive experience or marriage of the soul to Christ. Your explanation is so Calvinistic, punitive and not loving! Not loving like the Roman Catholic explanation given to us by the saints. I don't believe you articulate the Roman Catholic position at all. Best just to explain what the Orthodox believe and let the Roman Catholics explain their own religion.

[@AstralKing]

There will be an intermediate state after death. It is non physical, right here beside us living beings. You can still pray to loved ones and some of us can receive messages direct through telepathic methods. I have had several after life communications. Unclear to me how long the intermediate state lasts before they are called to the next chapter.

[@johnfisher247]

Purification after death of the soul (outside of temporal space) those not condemned to hell after personal judgement is normal. St Paul talks about purification as by fire which is process like a refiners fire. Prayers for the dead presumes this. The prayers and offerings to the temple in the case of the Maccabees witnesses the dead can be assisted by our prayers since they cannot do for themselves as time has finished. That they may be delivered from their sins indicates a process after death. The misunderstanding of Protestant deformers is based on straw men arguments. Time does not exist after death.

[@stuartmann5567]

Please forgive me if I misunderstood…so is they’re a chance of our unsaved family members who have passed to receive Gods grace and mercy and be saved through our prayers and deeds?

[@jamesbancroft2467]

what do you mean by “unsaved”?

[@stuartmann5567]

@@jamesbancroft2467 non-Christian who haven’t repented and received Gods grace and mercy before they depart from this early life.

[@stuartmann5567]

@@schelloma thank you for clarifying. I’d say the only two things that are stopping me from accepting orthodoxy, is the veneration of Mary and icons.

[@mjphyil]

I don't understand, why would the Scriptures say we die once then the judgment, or that what we do while living is the basis of each person's' judgment? (Heb 9.27, Matt 16.27, even Luke 16.19-31 makes it clear there's no second chances) Why would this not be clearer in Scripture?

[@johnnyd2383]

Let us examine this matter from a different angle... If the state of the departed remained the same before and after Cavalry, then Lord's passion, death and resurrection was for nothing (God forbid). In the OT we can see souls after departure being in the state of so called "soul sleep". In the NT we do not see such state of the departed souls (St. Paul's dilemma to depart and be with the Lord or stay for the benefit of the living, etc.). What has hanged.? Lord after His death went down and destroyed the Hades, broke down the doors of Hades, unbound the imprisoned souls and led the just to Heavens. Ever since, Hades can not withhold the just souls. Orthodox art (icons) depict Christ standing over the broken gates of Hades, angels binding Satan and Satan crushed under the gates of Hades. Orthodox Paschal troparion also reflects this new reality: "Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death, and upon those in the tombs bestowing life.!" For Biblical references, visit the following: (1 Peter 4, 6), (Acts 2, 27-31), (Revelation 1, 17).

[@viravirakti]

3:57, 17:41, 20:41 But how do the prayers for the dying actually work? It is hard to believe, and indeed I do not believe, that they would have the power or purpose to save or purify the souls of the dead, that is, to persuade God to do so, as if God needed to be convinced. That would mean that our mercy and love for other people, dead or alive, would be greater than the mercy and love of God, which would be blasphemy. Then, the dependence of the dead on our prayers would also mean that God leaves the salvation and the eternity of the dead in our hands and will, and not in the will, power and mercy of God, which again would be inconceivable on the part of a Good, perfect and loving God, and it would be a diminution and depreciation of the Godhead. On the other hand, this would make us all guilty of not saving many souls, known or unknown, loved or unloved by us, because we did not pray at all or enough, or did not give any or enough alms or diptychs for those souls. In this way, who would be saved? Precisely, that salvation does not lie in our power, but in God's mercy, love and power, which we can only recognize and confirm in our prayers. Yes, to pray for the dead as well as for the living, in order to show our communion, goodwill, mercy and desire for salvation towards all people, this makes sense, since by this we confirm true love and faith in Christ as well, and cooperation with God. So praying for others is actually for our salvation, not for others. Those who pray for others and want the good of all and are in God's will and love are saved. But to pray so that we make God save others, that does not make sense.

[@BryanKirch]

From my perception. Its ONE fire and differing levels of perceptual consciousness. The same fire of Hell is the same fire of Purgatory and Heaven. It’s our relative level of resistance to Truth. Creating “levels” purgatory / purification is a baptism for those who are between these extremes of sainthood and conscious evil. And then there’s gradients between. Greek orthodoxy already views the fire of heaven and hell as ONE. But that’s black and white like a child. Having gradients of consciousness is apparent if anyone looks around the world or inside themselves. Consciousness is Fire is Light

[@BryanKirch]

@@GigiGhiba was it not Christ that after his crucifixion pulled Abraham out of his resting place and brought him to heaven? Was it not Paul who experienced the levels of heaven? So there are levels of heaven and levels of hell but no place between? What was this place before heaven was opened for Abraham? And what is the purpose of Christ descending and opening the gates? And how far did he descend and who was allowed out of the place he descended?

[@BryanKirch]

@@GigiGhiba so where was Abraham ?

[@BryanKirch]

@@GigiGhiba what is Sheol?

[@BryanKirch]

Do you see people here on earth in various states of hell, purgation or cleansing and heavenly saintliness? The Lord of mercy desires that all be saved. And many have a difficult time accomplishing that in the span of 60 years. We will reap what we sow here but we are not cast into eternal fire after our short stay here. Believing that our soul is created and there is no reincarnation and yet some souls are cast into immediate he’ll on earth by unspeakable abuse requires you at minimum to soften your heart to see the mercy of the lord or become open to reincarnation who’s mercy spans many many lifetimes until one has completed Theosis.

[@BryanKirch]

@@GigiGhiba so you quoted a passage from the NT where a guy was in fire and Abraham was not. Yet Jesus was still alive and Abraham was in a different place than the wicked person?

[@davezietsma7510]

How do you explain the parable of the rich man and lazarus? It is clear there is no way to cross over.

[@tessietesoro7407]

Sins of the flesh is a sin that takes a person upon death to hell. Those who committed sins that are forgivable by God are staying in purgatory = it's a cleansing station, before going to heaven.

[@orthodoxphronesis]

Forgive me, and I don’t mean to speak on behalf of Fr. Josiah.. but when he said “The Christian Church”, I would assume, he means the Eastern Orthodox Church. For this is the only church which is truly the body of Christ and “Church” not only in name, but in validity of the Mysteries (Sacraments). There are no Mysteries outside of the Eastern Orthodox Church. 🙏🏻☦️ I pray all will visit a Divine Liturgy.

[@orthodox1717]

Your assumption is correct. ☦️ I’ve listened to enough videos by Fr. Josiah that when he says the Christian Church, he’s referring to the Eastern Orthodox Church.

[@vsevolodtokarev]

How else can Fr. Josiah's words be interpreted?

[@chrismole1315]

The fact that it is called the Eastern Orthodox Church implies that it is not the full body of Christ worldwide but limited to the "east". That is one of my objections to orthodoxy. It is nationalistic. Whereas the Catholic church, as its name says, is universal.

[@Csay12]

​@@chrismole1315Thats not being entirely honest. The Western Church is called the Roman Catholic Church. If I use that same argument then it implies that it's limited to "Rome". The Orthodox Church refers to herself as the one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, containing the fullness of the truth. Catholicity shouldn't be based on the number of faithful worldwide or their geographical location. The Orthodox Church is wholesome because even if the Christian world was in rebellion and apostasy, one single Orthodox Church left standing would contain the fullness of the truth.

[@chrismole1315]

@@Csay12 The term 'Roman Catholic' is used by non Catholics. We simply refer to the church as Catholic, which means universal.

[@rjyahin05]

Purgatory is not a place. It is a state. Where did you get your siurce that we believe it’s a llace, Father?

[@plucknpick6414]

Enjoying your presentation. I noticed you reference the Latin as authoritative....what about the Greek? I use the Rena Valeria along side the NKJ for reference, since I don't know Greek.

[@Leonugent2012]

I know someone who murdered a friend of his and spent 20 years in prison because of it. He confessed and repented before he entered prison. What was the spiritual purpose of that 20 year prison sentence?

[@thegoatofyoutube1787]

Why was development ok before the schism and not after? Did Jesus ever claim that the way the church was guided and how doctrine unfolded would magically stop midstream? 🤔

[@micahkirn6756]

As an Orthodox Christian I've been trying to understand St. Gregory "on the soul and the ressurection" which seems to express purgatory as well as a hopeful universalism. I'd love to see you or someone explain this work, maybe I'm misunderstanding it. Being one of the three holy Heirarchs and the older sister being a teacher of both him and St. Basil. That seems troubling for our position.

[@ashdon0813]

Genuinely asking….at around 1:30 to 1:40 did he say that the vast majority of Protestants have created the belief where one can fall from paradise or get out of hell? As a Protestant I have never in any denomination heard preached falling from paradise or being able to get out of hell. I’m not asking to debate that belief just the statement that the vast majority of Protestants actually believe that. That is simply not true. Or did I not hear it correctly. I went back and watched that section a few times and he se Ms to be saying Protestants believe that. Help me here.

[@tjkhan4541]

As an American Protestant, may I ask a curiosity question: Father Josiah and many other EO priests pronounce the word schism “sizm” when I always thought it was “skizm.” Is there a particular reason for that? The Greek word has a chi in it, so I figured the pronunciation would include the ch- sound. Just a curiosity. Thanks

[@chunkspiggle3916]

I think he's got a speech impediment. He also randomly pronounces 's' as 'f'

[@Hunter-zp5hd]

I’m a Catholic who has been very disturbed by the current operations and decisions of the Church. So much so, that I have considered other options that better align with what my soul leads me to understand. There are a couple of things that bother me about Orthodoxy, one being the Immaculate Conception, and two being Purgatory. It’s very possible that I don’t completely understand either one of those concepts. So I’m glad to have a nice priest here explain things out. Thx!

[@chrishowell5491]

As a Latin Rite Catholic I think you have it wrong about the teaching of the church . Those who die in mortal sin are separated from God eternally and those who die in friendship and relationship with God but have venal sin are never in danger of hell so it has absolutely no determination on someone going to hell if we don't pray for them. The Bible says there is a sin that is unto death which is what we call mortal. Venal sins do not break our relationship with God eternally. I don't think you were disingenuous just probably not well versed in Latin Rite Catholicism