The Filioque Heresy (Global Catechism)

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PatristicNectarFilms

Күн бұрын

Father Josiah Trenham
To Access Global Catechism:
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Our Newest Lecture Series:
Demonology: Understanding & Winning the Spiritual Battle
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The study of the Church’s demonology is a part of basic catechism and Christian instruction. The Scriptures are replete with teaching on the dark powers. Additionally, it is impossible to appreciate the magnitude of the saving deeds of our Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, without understanding how He, and He alone, has conquered Satan and destroyed his works. Lastly, Christians are called to fight and win in the spiritual war, and for this reason, it is essential that believers understand their enemies and their tactics. Toward this end, Father Josiah presents in these lectures in-depth studies of the Scriptures, Divine Services, and pedagogy of great saints and teachers on the subject of Satan and spiritual battle.
Lecture titles include:
Lecture #1 Jesus and Satan
Lecture #2 Demonology in the Baptismal Rite and the Divine Liturgy
Lecture #3 Gaining Mastery of Satan: The Life of St. Anthony the Great
Lecture #4 How to Win the Spiritual Battle according to St. John of the Ladder
Lecture #5 Engaging the Unseen Warfare: Fr. Lorenzo Scupoli and St. Nicodemos of the Holy Mountain
Lecture #6 C. S. Lewis’ Screwtape Letters and Demonic Warfare in the 21st Century Falling West
If you are interested in other available titles, or if you would like more information on Patristic Nectar Publications, please visit our website at www.PatristicNectar.org
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Пікірлер: 753
@jeffdavis-nc1sn
@jeffdavis-nc1sn Жыл бұрын
I'm considering converting to Orthodoxy. I grew up in baptist and non-denominational churches, and never once in them did I ever hear a metaphysical, comprehensive understanding of the Holy Trinity. It was always just explained at face value and we had to accept it because of dogma. It's the difference between saying the sky is blue vs understanding why the sky is blue. After listening to Father Josiah and other Orthodox Fathers, I now have a true understanding of the concept. There seems to be a lot of richness in Orthodoxy.
@MrWesford
@MrWesford Жыл бұрын
I was baptized Orthodox 2 years ago coming from baptist/non-denom. The richness and the depth never stops.
@BecomeAnOrthodoxChristian
@BecomeAnOrthodoxChristian Жыл бұрын
Visit your nearest Orthodox Church and speak with the Priest. God be with you!
@voievod9260
@voievod9260 Жыл бұрын
Hey, Im Orthodox. Feel free to ask me any questions. Im not a theologian but any questions I can't answer, I can ask my spiritual father in my parish. If you feel like it, we could also talk live using discord or other platform.
@flawlessvic
@flawlessvic Жыл бұрын
I was a prot for 3+ decades. Not once did I ever hear a discussion on Christology. Because within the protestant tradition, there really is none. Orthodoxy will unlock those questions you have and you'll find the original Church.
@cigler3299
@cigler3299 Жыл бұрын
Come and see.
@Metascetic
@Metascetic Жыл бұрын
Coming from the protestant world, all of a sudden this clicked for me I had never heard, for 30 years, about the original creed without the filioque All it took was hearing it once, plus the explanation for it, for me to ultimately turn to Orthodoxy
@bolshoefeodor6536
@bolshoefeodor6536 Жыл бұрын
Praise God, Glory to Jesus Christ forever.
@bonnie_gail
@bonnie_gail Жыл бұрын
amen
@thekatarnalchemist
@thekatarnalchemist 10 ай бұрын
​@@bolshoefeodor6536Glory forever!
@KOVACHOT
@KOVACHOT 5 ай бұрын
God bless
@soulfulplaya5508
@soulfulplaya5508 5 ай бұрын
The Father is my hope. the Son is my refuge, the holy spirit my protection. Holy trinty Glory to you.. Bless you Father Peter and world family...
@justanotherlikeyou
@justanotherlikeyou Жыл бұрын
Thank you Father for standing for the Orthodox Truth. Long live Orthodoxy☦️
@KonstanzArrens
@KonstanzArrens Жыл бұрын
There seems to be a renaissance of Orthodoxy going on abroad, especially in America, both in rediscovering its spirituality and in attracting new souls to its way and its life.
@dmacarthur5356
@dmacarthur5356 10 ай бұрын
It's true. I've been curious about The Orthodox Church and have watched a ton of videos and a lot of comments are from recent concerts or by people like myself considering. I am from an Evangelical background and just got to the point where church was a rock concert, a power point seminar, and a Starbucks style coffee shop in the lobby. I felt no connection to God so I stopped going. The more I learn about Orthodoxy the more I am drawn to it. Even Hank Hanegraaff who I used to listen to all the time and have great respect for converted. It's definitely a thing.
@KonstanzArrens
@KonstanzArrens 10 ай бұрын
@@dmacarthur5356 I liked the description of your ''Evangelical background''. Rings true. lol
@dmacarthur5356
@dmacarthur5356 10 ай бұрын
@@KonstanzArrens lol, yeah no lie the church had baristas. Unreal.
@ElonMuskrat-my8jy
@ElonMuskrat-my8jy 9 ай бұрын
​@@dmacarthur5356My mom's megachurch has their own Starbucks.
@giantrotatingcarrot
@giantrotatingcarrot Жыл бұрын
Fascinating! Having been born into and raised in the Roman Catholic Church this was never taught and now I know why. I left the Roman Catholic Church a long time ago and have traveled within the Protestant tradition for many years. Now I have discovered recently the Orthodox tradition and everything that I read and hear just rings true. Blessings to all.
@voievod9260
@voievod9260 Жыл бұрын
Hey, Im Orthodox. Feel free to ask me any questions. Im not a theologian but any questions I can't answer, I can ask my spiritual father in my parish. If you feel like it, we could also talk live using discord or other platform.
@LadyMaria
@LadyMaria Жыл бұрын
May God bless you! ☦
@thedon978
@thedon978 Жыл бұрын
Keep traveling…
@voievod9260
@voievod9260 Жыл бұрын
@@thedon978 why? He finally found his home.
@hamontequila1104
@hamontequila1104 Жыл бұрын
why would he travel on a broken train?
@sfappetrupavelandrei
@sfappetrupavelandrei Жыл бұрын
Just a reminder for my Orthodox brothers: try to be respectful and kind with non-Orthodox people who visit this channel. 😊
@bolshoefeodor6536
@bolshoefeodor6536 Жыл бұрын
Of course that de9ends on how they behave, and whether they are spreading blasphemy and heresy! Sometimes, we need to follow Christ's example, and "whip the money-changers out of the Temple", no?
@DexiPawnz
@DexiPawnz Жыл бұрын
@@bolshoefeodor6536 how about we leave God's judgement & veangence to Him, for He claimed those.
@mrjkstark
@mrjkstark Жыл бұрын
@@bolshoefeodor6536 Definitely we should defend our faith, but let’s not stoop to their level and be nasty about it.
@josephodoherty7864
@josephodoherty7864 Жыл бұрын
@@mrjkstark "let's not stoop to their....." What a nasty arrogant attitude 😒. Why would I trust a single unchristian word you say?
@josephodoherty7864
@josephodoherty7864 Жыл бұрын
@@bolshoefeodor6536 the speaker/clip & many commenters are just shocking & hate mongering. I hope & pray this doesn't represent the Orthodox Church in any way shape or form. Horrific & sectarian.
@panagenesis2695
@panagenesis2695 Жыл бұрын
Happy Feast of The Dormition of The Theotokos!☦⛪🕯
@AkiRitchey
@AkiRitchey Жыл бұрын
Joyous Feastday! May the Holy Theotokos pray for us all for our efforts!
@royalbirb275
@royalbirb275 Жыл бұрын
Joyous feast!
@LadyMaria
@LadyMaria Жыл бұрын
We have 13 more days before the Feast of the Dormition here, but blessed Feast to you. ☦︎ 🤗
@AkiRitchey
@AkiRitchey Жыл бұрын
@LadyMaria May God bless your fast and your efforts! Blessed fast to you!!
@Kostas_Dikefalaios
@Kostas_Dikefalaios Жыл бұрын
​@@LadyMariaOriental?
@alvinf6981
@alvinf6981 Жыл бұрын
Well, what I have a problem with is not "filioque," but "procedit." But, I believe we need to wait until we get to heaven to learn about these details and refrain from calling each other "heretics" unnecessarily.
10 ай бұрын
I find I agree with a lot of the orthodox but I can't see myself ever praying to departed human beings or elevating Mary far beyond a place of respect and admiration. I would think any worship or prayers given to someone other than God would be error. Christ made the way for us to be saved and to have the most precious Holy Spirit lead us through life. I will speak with Him myself and take the lives of those who came before as encouragement for the marathon that is ahead. I absolutely hate watching believers, professing Christ lovers going at one another over the internet. Just makes us look silly and a reason to keep walking as many non believers do. I am of the belief that Christ can reach down and save any person in any condition and lead them to His church. The church He will build NOT built by human hands. We all see and know in part but someday we will see in full when we all will stand before Him. ❤ to those who fight with one another- where is the common ground? Is there only One God? Is Jesus the begotten Son who lived, died and resurrected providing the salvation of all those who He would call? Then argue in private about the other stuff.
@guyparker1749
@guyparker1749 8 ай бұрын
The sky is falling ,and it's raining cats and dogs ,think of it as a door to Christ heaven which there is no end..
@amakrid
@amakrid 8 ай бұрын
@alvinf6981 You've entered into the core of the whole issue my friend... Qudos!
@1337wafflezz
@1337wafflezz 7 ай бұрын
Thank you. We as Christians and brothers need to be able to have hard conversations about theology without name calling. I’m sure every single one of us in some aspects what we personally may believe? has some heretical opinions in the sense that it is not how God operates. But that’s not important as long as we BELIEVE in Christ, have faith, and let Him do His works in us. Jesus and Jesus alone is our salvation. That’s how it was and that’s how it will be eternally. everything else is secondary to following Him and His words
@williamrosario8534
@williamrosario8534 2 ай бұрын
I agree. We shouldn't be calling Christ followers heretics. People think they know every detail of god. They don't. Nobody does. The church split because of a few words and couldn't get over it for a thousand years. This is error of man. Being stubborn and prideful gets us nowhere. Catholic or Orthodox, who cares. People put way too much emphasis on denominations. Which is not biblical at all. Jesus said to follow him. Period.
@ICXCNIKA8
@ICXCNIKA8 Жыл бұрын
Well said Fr.Josiah! We are blessed to have priests like you! May God watch over you and protect you and your family 🙏🏼 ☦️
@illustratoriusrex5949
@illustratoriusrex5949 Жыл бұрын
I love Orthodoxy more by the day
@ReplyToMeIfUrRetarded
@ReplyToMeIfUrRetarded Жыл бұрын
same here
@comsortecomvoce4865
@comsortecomvoce4865 8 ай бұрын
Catholic here: obs: i love you guys, Viva Cristo Rei! Hello, for all those here,there is 2 arguments in saint thomas aquinas writings that made me understand the filioque importance, first one: the Creed nicea-constitopolitan was created strategically thought to fight each hesery of his time, so every single word put there was to combat the relevant heresys at the time, and because the filioque question was not in debate it was not explicit put on the creed, just when the nestorian hesery started to gain power and say that Christ didn't had the same nature as the Father, they also start to say that because of it the Holy Spirit didn't came from the Son, but just the Fatherso because of this the hierarchy saw the necessity to include explicitly this truth that was implicit on the Creed already(because the Creed was write in Greek and had no negation against the filioque attribute of the Holy Trinity. This was included to combat the heresies like in the previous councils. Second argument: The Holy Trinity has the same essence, because they i God in essence, but at the same time in this essence exist 3 persons, so the material (essence) of the Holy Trinity is the same, therefore what makes the persons distinct is the relation (order, i understood like that) between them, therefore if we affirm that the Holy Spirit came just from the Father and not from the Son, it means that they are the same person, otherwise there is 2 persons only in the trinity, but this isn't true, so thats why the Holy Spirit comes from the Father and the Son, and the Son come from the Father, because now they have distinct relations therefore are distinct persons, and i like to relate it wkth atoms, they have the same essence, but in other to them create something totally distinct in frequency vibration and energy dissipation they will ordering themselves in a different way, so they still continue to be atoms, but with different characteristics. The point that you brought in diminish the Holy Spirit in the Holy Trinity doesn't even make sense to me, because we are talking about the same essence (principal) and a perfect relationship, how can something that is perfect and infinity be diminished by his order of origin?
@MsTennisAddict
@MsTennisAddict 4 ай бұрын
Makes sense. Also if you just say from the Father, it leaves the Son on His own. As if the father and holy spirit only are related. The filioque ties them all together. ☺️. In my opinion, the only heresy is not loving Jesus. All these little differences do not matter. We should all unite and leave our differences behind. We have bigger problems in this world lol
@MC-ot7xl
@MC-ot7xl 3 ай бұрын
That is called post factum case building. If Filioque is small difference why dont you renounce it and come back to original creed? Pope is not primus interpares , he is equal to all other patriarchs. We should only worship The Holy Trinity, not high priest. Patriarch of Rome is that, Patriarch. Ecumenism is only truthful if not imposed, but agreed among equals. Jesus told Peter that one who wants to lead needs to be servant of all - the most humble. Hence, brother Roman Catholics, humble your self and renounce Filioque and Papal primacy and return to your one Holy Catholicos Church of Jesus Christ - come back to Orthodoxy - we are waiting for you with open arms ❤
@MsTennisAddict
@MsTennisAddict 3 күн бұрын
I am actually greek catholic (melkite). Not roman. Our creed says only from the father despite the fact that we do follow the pope. 😊 I actually go to a roman catholic church because I feel so close to Jesus in that church. But I love them all. I wish we could unite and try to bring everyone on earth to Jesus instead of being divided. But it’s human nature…
@Demi.d3mi
@Demi.d3mi 8 сағат бұрын
@@MC-ot7xlthe eastern catholics don’t have the filioque as part of their creed, so your comment doesn’t hold up. You can still have communion with rome and not recite the filioque
@AndrewKendall71
@AndrewKendall71 7 ай бұрын
Thank God we come to him as children do. Thank God we don't have to have full knowledge and understanding to be in Christ, trusting him alone for salvation.
@melroycorrea7720
@melroycorrea7720 Жыл бұрын
The Catholics don't speak of the Son as the origin of the Spirit, but as the one who recieves the Spirit from the Father and through whom, the Spirit is given to the world. It is in this understanding, that the Spirit is of the Father and the Son.
@arturmonteiro8541
@arturmonteiro8541 11 ай бұрын
If I’m not wrong, orthodox don’t have an issue with the Filioque itself, but the fact that it was inserted into the creed without any proper discussion
@melroycorrea7720
@melroycorrea7720 11 ай бұрын
@@arturmonteiro8541 this video claims Filioque to be a heresy. Also, the Church in the West had to make this change in the Creed because it was fighting the Arian heresy that was denying the full divine nature to the Son.
@Maxx02897
@Maxx02897 11 ай бұрын
The council of Florence teachs that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son as one principe.
@amakrid
@amakrid 8 ай бұрын
@@melroycorrea7720 The looser structure of the Orthodox Church, gives the priests the opportunity to add a few more words, not always in the wisest way. To the Orthodox, the insertion of the Filioque in the Credo was initiating a diarchy in the Trinity - and that was heretical. Today, the traditional Patriarchs of the Eastern Church don't speak of heresy and heretics, Constantinople and Rome engage into dialogue in good terms and maybe are closer to each other, than say Constantinople in relation to Moscow... Forgive the priest please. He is a convert and converts are always zealots! 😉
@melroycorrea7720
@melroycorrea7720 8 ай бұрын
@@Maxx02897 That's because it's one divine nature and not because the Son is the Origin of the Spirit.
@danktankdragkings7117
@danktankdragkings7117 Жыл бұрын
thank you I'm in x Protestant Western right Orthodox convert I have been trying to explain for years why Orthodoxy and Catholicism are not the same thing. thank you for making it so succinctly I've been trying to explain the schism from the Orthodox perspective
@ericlammerman2777
@ericlammerman2777 Жыл бұрын
The difference between Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism is a LOT more than the Filioque clause, even pre-schism. If I had to boil it down to one thing, though, it's the papacy. Christ is the head of His church, not any bishop. The bishop of Rome was not satisfied, however, being the first among equals. Having said this: It's not that simple.
@danktankdragkings7117
@danktankdragkings7117 Жыл бұрын
@@ericlammerman2777 of course it's way more but that's the part my Orthodox, Catholic, protestant discussion groups bring up. If you just say the papacy is dumb they will give their talking points, we will give our rebuttal then no dialogue happens after that.
@Darth_Vader258
@Darth_Vader258 Ай бұрын
​@@ericlammerman2777 As a cradle Catholic, to be fair to the Orthodox. There have never been an *ABOMINABLE* Orthodox leader like Pope Alexander the VI, Pope Boniface the VIII and the many ANTI Popes throughout the centuries.
@diannalaubenberg7532
@diannalaubenberg7532 Жыл бұрын
Thank you. I had never heard the explanation of why the Orthodox Church considers the filioque a heresy from the Orthodox perspective. I understand it better now.
@Motomack1042
@Motomack1042 Жыл бұрын
They don't, the dispute has been settled. Catholic and Orthodox now have a common understanding. Unfortunately there are still a few who beat the drum of division
@ElonMuskrat-my8jy
@ElonMuskrat-my8jy 9 ай бұрын
​@@Motomack1042Wrong.
@acekoala457
@acekoala457 9 ай бұрын
​@@Motomack1042 "Common Understanding"? The Council of Lyons, the Council of Florence and the Council of Trent all proclaim the Dual Hypostatic Procession of the Holy Spirit, which is not Orthodox and is in fact a distortion of the Apostolic Tradition. Just because some Ecumenist Bishops claim "common Understanding" doesn't change the truth.
@henrysmith5784
@henrysmith5784 Жыл бұрын
My children and I were received into the Church in October of 2022. I was raised in a Roman Catholic family but I was converted to a non denominational (but pentecostal) church. The protestant church that I converted to did teach some proper theology, such as being very much against the doctrine of "once saved, always saved", and taught basic fundamentals such as Christ is fully human and fully God, the Trinity. Although we practiced speaking in "tongues", we were taught that most charismatics/pentecostals were in the equivalence of spiritual Prelest. I say that to say this, the heresy of the filioque has been hard for me to wrap my head around, but this has been the best explanation that I've heard and because of this I feel that I finally understand! Thanks so much! : )
@ZZZELCH
@ZZZELCH Жыл бұрын
My goodness, this helped me get closer to understanding more than YEARS of study. Thank you Father.
@TheDroc1990
@TheDroc1990 Жыл бұрын
Love you, Father. Joyous Feast of the Dormition.
@Slit-dl6gl
@Slit-dl6gl 7 ай бұрын
I pray that Christians be given grace to recognize the Son (Filioque) in their hearts and Creed
@johnnyd2383
@johnnyd2383 7 ай бұрын
You pray that non-biblical invention of the fallen see of Rome becomes accepted by Eastern Orthodox.? On what drugs are you.?
@Slit-dl6gl
@Slit-dl6gl 7 ай бұрын
@@johnnyd2383 on the contrary, the only See not conquerered by Muslim is the Seeof Rome.
@johnnyd2383
@johnnyd2383 7 ай бұрын
@@Slit-dl6gl God's Church was constantly under attack by the forces of Satan throughout the history... just as He said... Not just Islam attacked the lands His Church was developed in, but later Communism plague hit it.. and yet.. none managed to destroy it... just as Lord promised.
@alpha4IV
@alpha4IV Жыл бұрын
I will have to relisten to this multiple times. Interesting explanation of the issue.
@ApostolicEchoes
@ApostolicEchoes Жыл бұрын
Only the Orthodox have the true Trinity. Catholics have a Modalist “Trinity” with their absolute divine simplicity and filioque. Protestants have a Nestorian one with their penal substitution. God Bless the Orthodox Church of Christ. Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on us sinners!
@IsaiahWilson-k4o
@IsaiahWilson-k4o Жыл бұрын
I'd say protestants have a modalist trinity especially since Sola scriptura led to oneness pentecostals.
@NavelOrangeGazer
@NavelOrangeGazer Жыл бұрын
@@IsaiahWilson-k4o they have elements of it as they inherited the heresies of the papists and calvin and his goons piled more heresy on top of it.
@ApostolicEchoes
@ApostolicEchoes Жыл бұрын
@@IsaiahWilson-k4o several sects of Protestants do have a Modalist trinity. I myself am A former oneness Pentecostal. Glory to God for leading me to truth.
@humbledandgrateful7411
@humbledandgrateful7411 Жыл бұрын
"Modalist"?? And with our "absolute divine simplicity" at that 🙂 I suppose you mean by "Modalist" in the context of this video that Catholics believe the Holy Spirit proceeds sometimes from the Father and other times from the Son. So, sometimes He's in Father-mode and other times in Son-mode? As a convert to Catholic from Orthodox, I assure you that is neither our teaching nor our reality 🙂 Catholicism is Trinitarian with the Father the Creator, the Son the Redeemer, and the Spirit the Preserver. They co-exist and are not One Person in different modes.
@ApostolicEchoes
@ApostolicEchoes Жыл бұрын
@@humbledandgrateful7411 Here are two examples why the positions are similar. Modal Manifestations of Simplicity: In this argument, one could propose that the different modes or manifestations in Modalism are not distinct "parts" of God, but rather different ways in which God's simple nature is revealed or expressed. This interpretation would emphasize that God's simplicity remains intact even as these modes are experienced. Unity of Essence: Another way to argue for compatibility is by emphasizing the unity of essence in Modalism. Supporters might assert that the three modes or manifestations of God are ultimately expressions of the same simple divine essence, thereby maintaining the principle of divine simplicity.
@thevonschmittousvonschmitt8839
@thevonschmittousvonschmitt8839 Жыл бұрын
Saint Gregory of Palomas has written in depth on this and other topics concerning the Latins. Fr Chris Moody translated this into English and I believe its available on uncut Orthodox press. Fr. Chris Moody has a youtube channel where he discusses the Filioque that was quite edifying also.
@ezdeezytube
@ezdeezytube Жыл бұрын
This was INCREDIBLY helpful. Thank you for providing these insights - I've never heard it explained this eloquently before.
@hanszickerman8051
@hanszickerman8051 Жыл бұрын
Excellent explanation! And so say I, a Lutheran.
@ericlammerman2777
@ericlammerman2777 Жыл бұрын
"The truth lies with the Greeks” - Martin Luther, 1519
@Stophatingalready
@Stophatingalready Жыл бұрын
​@@ericlammerman2777So was he basically saying Orthodoxy is true?
@childofmary7959
@childofmary7959 Жыл бұрын
That was such an understandable explanation of that heresy. I especially appreciate that you followed through with the results of that heresy. What’s happening in the Roman rite is a travesty, and if this pope has his way, will destroy whatever is left of it. It’s the house that is built on sand. 😢
@Pontifical_Jester
@Pontifical_Jester Жыл бұрын
As a fairly new convert to Catholicism (a few years), I have never heard any priest, bishop, or layperson describe a belief that matches your description of the heresy. This seems like making theological mountains out of linguistic molehills.
@t.d6379
@t.d6379 11 ай бұрын
Typical Lil Bro behaviour from the Orthys
@on_the_journey_101
@on_the_journey_101 10 ай бұрын
And unilaterally changing what the whole church agreed to is somehow ok?
@t.d6379
@t.d6379 10 ай бұрын
@No_One_infinity no it wasn't okay, we admit that, well most of us anyway. But in the end we were right about it and it defeated a growing heresy, something the church has done for almost 2k years. We could unify and orthodox brothers wouldn't have to admit it into their creed.
@on_the_journey_101
@on_the_journey_101 10 ай бұрын
@@t.d6379 it does not seem to me that you are expressing the desire to seek forgiveness for this but you are seeking for submission from us for something you admit was wrong and divided us based on your stated desire to defeat heresy you entered into error(if you admit something is wrong how is it not error) do you understand?
@on_the_journey_101
@on_the_journey_101 10 ай бұрын
@@t.d6379 also please forgive me if i mistook you for someone else who was attacking fr josiah
@dropsofink1336
@dropsofink1336 Жыл бұрын
Brilliant! Perfect timing! Love and Blessings ❤❤❤ ☦️
@emmetzet
@emmetzet Жыл бұрын
the best explanation I've ever heard on the subject. Thanks Father Josiah
@Chris-on5bt
@Chris-on5bt Жыл бұрын
Excellent and very clear. Thank you Father.
@watchaddicts1213
@watchaddicts1213 Жыл бұрын
The Filioque sort of seems to make the Holy Spirit a subordinate errand boy. Christ makes this crystal clear-I will send The Comforter, who proceeds from The Father. Period.
@awake3083
@awake3083 Жыл бұрын
I seldom can't find "alone" in that statement.
@despairknot
@despairknot Жыл бұрын
​@awake3083 gotta try and get that hyper-rationalized jab in when your reason falls flat don't you؟ That's what Romans always do.
@awake3083
@awake3083 Жыл бұрын
@@despairknot It’s a fair reply, you guys act like Protestants on the issue. When a Protestant quote mines scripture in an attempt prove Sola Fide they always use Ephesians 2:8-9 yet we can’t find “alone” in the Scriptures either.
@despairknot
@despairknot Жыл бұрын
​@@awake3083it's not a fair reply at all. God doesn't need you to correctly worship Him. He's not affected by a show of hands as to what humans want to believe. You are the one who needs to worship God correctly because that's what he made us to do, and if God is love; then tampering with what Christ taught his apostles about the nature of the trinity also ruins our understanding of Love. That's why ROMANticism has led us astray from what love truly is.
@despairknot
@despairknot Жыл бұрын
That is why Fr Sophrony insists that it is only in Christianity, where God is revealed in three personae (Mt 28:19), that we find the completion of the revelation about divine persona. Since the personae in their threeness cannot be reduced to their essence it follows that their relationship is determined by their personeity and not by their essence. Their self-determination in eternity is the eternal fact. In divine being, which is utterly personal, self-determination of the divine hypostases derives from the hypostases themselves and is in no way predetermined or imposed by the essence. Hence the first implication: in its self-determination in relations, persona is absolutely free. No factor necessitates its determination: “Where there is no liberty, there is no persona; and vice versa-without persona there is no liberty. This kind of eternal being uniquely concerns the persona, in no way the individual (cf 1Cor 15:47-50).” The Theological Legacy of Archimandrite Sophrony Nicholas V. Sakharov ST VLADIMIR’S SEMINARY PRESS YONKERS, NEW YORK I suggest you read it @awake3083
@MajorMustang1117
@MajorMustang1117 Жыл бұрын
Awesome. Something I've been trying to explain to my Protestant father..... like most things it doesn't go well. Maybe one day 😅
@ΓραικοςΕλληνας
@ΓραικοςΕλληνας Жыл бұрын
Tell him where is the filioque in the NT text Jesus Christ uses the word εκπορεύεται for the Spirit as the text says only from the Father.
@tclearytcleary
@tclearytcleary Жыл бұрын
@@ΓραικοςΕλληνας John 15:26
@jamesbancroft2467
@jamesbancroft2467 Жыл бұрын
don’t focus primarily on intellectual stuff, pray for him and talk about the good stuff about Orthodoxy
@LadyMaria
@LadyMaria Жыл бұрын
​@@tclearytclearyThat's not the Filioque. Next time please write out the verse. It is lazy not to.
@psjasker
@psjasker 11 ай бұрын
I could listen to this caliber of instruction for days on end. The power of truth ….
@marieegypt7091
@marieegypt7091 Жыл бұрын
When I converted from Catholicism to Orthodoxy what struck me the most is the pride and arrogance of the Popes and the Latin Church in their decision to change the Creed, the foundation of our faith that the Holy Fathers established! Who gave them such authority???
@ericlammerman2777
@ericlammerman2777 Жыл бұрын
You know EXACTLY how most Catholics will reply to your question. "Upon this rock..."
@javaman8895
@javaman8895 Жыл бұрын
I find the Orthodox to be very prideful. Why do they have an ax to grind? If you’re right, we’ll know by the fruits. Right now all I see are people who are already Christian, mostly Protestant that become orthodox. The catholic who become orthodox have their reasons. I think we need to stop arguing and love God and our neighbor as Jesus taught us.
@LadyMaria
@LadyMaria Жыл бұрын
​​@@javaman8895I find Roman Catholics to be prideful, to be fair.
@therealteacher8630
@therealteacher8630 10 ай бұрын
Are you sure that Rome changed the creed? It simply made it clearer, to combat further against the Arius heresy, for which it had originally been made! You are just struggling with the Pope's Authority, but not theology! And if there be any theology in that, other than affirming that God is one in three coequal and coeternal Persons, that Theology is wrong! The issue is who did this right thing, and by what authority? But it is not wrong! Now let me ask the Orthodox! if you were allowed to put the word "ALONE" would you say.........from the Father alone"?
@matthewporcelli6288
@matthewporcelli6288 6 ай бұрын
Read about the Ecumenical Councils that approved the addition. (Lyons & Florence)
@XyzWse001
@XyzWse001 Жыл бұрын
In the Western Church, from the end of the 8th century, it is professed that the Holy Spirit "proceeds from the Father and the Son"; the Spanish councils applied this phrase from the 5th century. It spread to the empire of Charlemagne. The debate with the Eastern Orthodox began in 807 when Western pilgrims in Jerusalem began to sing the Creed this way in the Mass. Pope Leo III recognized the correctness of the phrase but objected to its inclusion in the Creed. Out of consideration for the Eastern Orthodox, he continued to demand that only the ancient text be sung in Rome. Pope Benedict VIII adopted the new formula at the request of Emperor Henry II, but for example, in Paris, they stuck to the old text even at the beginning of the 13th century. Patriarch Photius of Constantinople vehemently attacked the Western Church in 867 for falsifying the Creed. In 1054, Patriarch Michael Cerularius justified the schism with this, and in 1274 at the Second Council of Lyon, Michael's three delegates accepted the filioque, but a large part of the Eastern Church resisted the emperor's and pope's will and did not recognize the Lyon Council. In the 14th century, the Eastern Orthodox demanded that anyone coming to them from the Western Church must deny the heresy associated with the filioque. In 1438-39, at the Council of Florence, they again discussed the matter, but the Eastern delegates continually referred to the Council of Ephesus, which had once forbidden any additions to the Creed. However, that council only dealt with the Nicene formula, not the Niceno-Constantinopolitan. In the end, they recognized that the Eastern and Western teachings were substantially identical, and that the addition was legitimate, and the council officially declared this on July 6, 1439. However, the returning delegates encountered resistance again in Constantinople. The question always arose in the union of Eastern rite Christians. Pope Benedict XIV decided in 1742 that those who unite with the Western Church this way are not obliged to include the expression filioque in the Creed. After the Second Vatican Council, to facilitate ecumenical efforts, Latin-rite individuals living in Eastern Orthodox territories can also use the text of the Creed without the filioque. - As for the dogmatic truth, the Scripture expressly states of the Holy Spirit that He "proceeds from the Father" (Jn <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="926">15:26</a>). We read also that the Father sends Him in the name of the Son (Jn <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="866">14:26</a>) or the Son sends Him from the Father (Jn <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="926">15:26</a>). But He can only send Him because He is in the same relationship with Him as the Father, for all that the Father has is also the Son's (Jn <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="975">16:15</a>). The Eastern fathers used this formula: the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son. The Westerners, since Augustine, have expressed the mystery this way: the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. Therefore, it is indeed a matter of faith that the Son also has a part in the origin of the Holy Spirit, although the Son received this ability from the Father.
@nicadag
@nicadag 11 ай бұрын
Excellently stated.
@fr.peterw.32
@fr.peterw.32 7 ай бұрын
Yes, very well done. Time certainly helps both Churches (East and West) to better express their theology. My understanding was that the Latin Church essentially believes what the Eastern Churches do in this matter but it is expressed differently. I think a lot of the challenge comes from what is meant but certain phrases and words, which is no surprise since this is a noted issue from even the early Councils. I sincerely pray that we are healed from our divisions and better reflect the unity of the Holy Trinity by being a united Church on earth.
@Chrisc-sn6uh
@Chrisc-sn6uh Жыл бұрын
Im currently reading, Apodictic treatise on the procession of the holy spirit. It makes it so very clear why the filioque is a huge mistake! I highly recommend it. I am in awe at the brilliance of st Gregory!
@josephodoherty7864
@josephodoherty7864 Жыл бұрын
This is apologetics not theology per se and sadly rationalises a serious point of schism which needs clearer Christian dialogue.
@stevemcgee99
@stevemcgee99 6 ай бұрын
This is the first time I’ve heard an explanation of why the filioque heresy matters. It seems like nitpicking to me to just talk about “this to that” and kind of rationalize a diagram. But to explain the impact of “demoting” the Holy Spirit being the growing governance and bureaucracy of the church makes the heresy of the filioque clear.
@alepine1986
@alepine1986 Жыл бұрын
Wow. Such a powerful explanation.
@redeemedzoomer6053
@redeemedzoomer6053 8 ай бұрын
The Orthodox have some great arguments but this one is really bad. "If the Spirit is from Father and Son then you have 2/3 persons sharing the same quality" The problem is that you have that either way. In the Orthodox view, the Son and the Holy Spirit share the common hypostatic property of depending on the Father for their exitance. That's why St. Anselm's version of the hypostatic properties is correct. Father: "God from whom God exists" Son: "God from God" + "God from whom God exists" Spirit: God from God"
@riche7691
@riche7691 8 ай бұрын
Couldn’t it be said that the Father also depends on the Father for his existence as well?
@luan0020
@luan0020 2 ай бұрын
Nice to see you here :)
@chairmandrpepper
@chairmandrpepper 2 ай бұрын
no you have 1/3 persons sharing a different quality. Just like the sun gives off light and heat, they both are closely related but not dependent on each other, I.e. The holy spirit is not begotten of the son. The father is the head. And is the greatest. Only the head can make processions. Because it is limitless.
@chunkspiggle3916
@chunkspiggle3916 14 күн бұрын
Shut up poindexter
@mrpallycapoops
@mrpallycapoops 8 ай бұрын
Thank you Father for this clear explanation. I today have read of critiques of Orthodoxy for being traditionalist. But I’m concerned that Catholicism in its attempt to appease modernist forces may become something different to what it should be!
@jasonmurray1771
@jasonmurray1771 Жыл бұрын
wow beautiful explanation
@jasonmurray1771
@jasonmurray1771 Жыл бұрын
@BCaTo sorry but that’s simply untrue
@jasonmurray1771
@jasonmurray1771 Жыл бұрын
@BCaTo 1. Everyone called him out for it as an irregular and wrongheaded statement and the bishop himself later clarified saying that it was a mistake :) 2. Everyone recognizes that the simple phrase “Filioque” can be interpreted in an Orthodox way. Depends on what you mean by the words. But you shouldn’t say it in the creed.
@Borzoi86
@Borzoi86 6 ай бұрын
It was my intense study of the Filioque controversy that led my wife and me to leave an otherwise sound and conservative Presbyterian church. We now are active members of a conservative and traditional Anglican church. We have unbounded love for our Orthodox friends and have learned much from reading the early church fathers.
@bigmonkee639
@bigmonkee639 3 ай бұрын
Why Anglican, Sir? It is heretical and not from the true origin of the church. I hope you and your wife are well, God bless you both! ❤
@georgeince4136
@georgeince4136 3 ай бұрын
I am a Catholic who has been attempting to understand what the difference between the Catholic and Orthodox beliefs is in regard to that teaching . You have made the best definition of all of the one that I have heard. My fear is when others border on Arian-Christian or dedivinization of the Holy thank you. Spirit.
@edwardhookway3312
@edwardhookway3312 10 ай бұрын
Besides these theological differences, we can just look at the fruits of the Church and all the saints God has given us despite these insane modern times. For me, this gives me a lot of reassurance that Orthodoxy is the one, true church when it produces such massive saints and more to come. St Paisios, St Porphyrios and St Jacob pray for us!
@XyzWse001
@XyzWse001 Жыл бұрын
That the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, the Scripture repeatedly and formally declares. For example, "But when the Comforter comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me." (John <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="926">15:26</a>; cf. <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="856">14:16</a>-26 Mt <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="620">10:20</a> 1 Cor <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="130">2:10</a>-12 1 Thes <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="248">4:8</a> 1 Jn <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="253">4:13</a>.) But it also clearly teaches that the Spirit proceeds from the Son. a) The Scriptures frequently and consistently refer to the Holy Spirit as the Spirit of the Son (2 Cor <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="187">3:7</a>, Gal <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="246">4:6</a> Rom <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="489">8:9</a>-11 Phil <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="79">1:19</a> 1 Pet <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="71">1:11</a> Act <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="966">16:6</a>), thus establishing a constant and clear reference to the Son. But in the Divinity, there can be no other constant and clear reference between the persons except that of origin; interchangeability exists among the others because of the absolute simplicity of God. Therefore, if it were not trying to express a constant and clear reference between the Son and the Holy Spirit but merely an essential identity, it could just as easily reverse the relationship and speak of the spirit of the Spirit; which, however, it never does. Moreover, this expression, the spirit of the Son, even expresses procession from the Son according to the scriptural analogy (genitive of origin); for according to Saint Paul, the spirit of God means "the Spirit that is from God." (1 Cor <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="132">2:12</a>.) b) According to the Scriptures, Christ sends the Spirit (Jn <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="866">14:26</a>, <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="926">15:26</a>, <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="967">16:7</a>, <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="1222">20:22</a>, Lk <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="1489">24:49</a>, etc.). But sending implies a kind of power over the one sent. And since in the wholly equal Trinity there is no basis or title for a power difference other than origin, the outward continuation and pattern of which is the sending, the Son can only send the Spirit because He proceeds from Him; the Father sends both the Son and the Spirit, but neither of the two sends the Father; the Son sends the Spirit, but the Spirit does not send the Son. c) The Holy Spirit receives instruction from the Son: "When he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you." (Jn <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="973">16:13</a>-15.) Since the Holy Spirit is truly God, He cannot take truth from the Son in any other way than by receiving omniscience from Him eternally. However, omniscience is identical with the divine essence; therefore, the Holy Spirit takes the divine essence eternally from the Son, or in other words, proceeds from Him. d) Scripture always mentions the Holy Spirit in the third place, after the Son, in the Trinitarian formulas. From this consistency of expression, one may justly infer that the Holy Spirit's relation to the Son is not the same as to the Father; for then they could have been interchanged at will. The procession of the Holy Spirit from the Father and the Son is beautifully symbolized in the book of Revelation (<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="1321">22:1</a>): "He showed me a river of the water of life (the Holy Spirit, Cf. Jn <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="458">7:38</a>.), clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb."
@pj_ytmt-123
@pj_ytmt-123 9 ай бұрын
Yeah, but the Immaculate Conception was made possible by the power of the Holy Spirit. "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God." (Lk. 1:35)
@d.o.7784
@d.o.7784 Жыл бұрын
Very interesting, but i assume the other side also have their own theological approach to the topic, it would have been nice if you could have addressed these in your answer, for example the biblical verses they use to support their doctrine and how you would refute them.
@carlosz.5460
@carlosz.5460 Жыл бұрын
I would just ask one question, if God is eternal and subsistent within himself, creating all things in a fashion that would look almost hierarchical then why would his own church not follow such a nature? One Head, flowing thru God in a magisterium, not co depending on other forms of ruling, but subjective to God thru one? All things are created by God and flow from his objective goodness, why should the church not also? I put faith in the Catholic Church because it doesn’t rely on man but only in faith that man flows from God within his magisterium that he in a way has begotten thru the trinity
@amakrid
@amakrid 8 ай бұрын
Because my friend, the term Catholic (from the Greek word "καθολικός", catholicos) means universal, wide-ranging. And the structure you propose could truly be adopted by the Church, only if the Church would catholically, i.e. universaly agree upon it. That was the way the Church was structured and continued traditionally. Had God wished everything to flow through one, he would first baptize Peter with fire and then Peter would baptise the rest of the apostles. That didn't happen, and was never the case. Of course, the early Church in Jerusalem had its own bishop, James, the brother of Christ. But after the destruction of Jerusalem, and while the Church expanded, every new land had its own bishops, all equal, with the bishop of Rome (the largest Christian church) accepted as "Primus inter pares", first among equals. That meant that traditionally, the Pope's opinion was of an enhanced importance. Nothing like the "Vicarius Filii Dei" or the "Pope's infallibility" which were established later by the papacy. In my opinion, if the Church manages to reunite, the Pope could function as a coordinator and a spokesman for the whole Church but not as a person that would dictate how every bishop or Patriarch should manage his own affairs. The Church of Rome has started electing non Italian Popes; this is a move to the right direction in my opinion.
@thedon978
@thedon978 Жыл бұрын
This “heresy” (as the Greeks call it) didn’t seem to bother the Greeks until, in 1054, they demanded independence from papal authority. When Rome excommunicate them, they got it. Now it’s Istanbul, not Constantinople.
@ionictheist349
@ionictheist349 Жыл бұрын
Which is still a greek name. And the filioque was being discussed between the Orthodox and also seen as a heresy but we remained united
@acekoala457
@acekoala457 9 ай бұрын
So you're gonna ignore the 200 prior years of condemnations of the Filioque and Papal Supremacy prior to the Schism?
@user-7lf7w
@user-7lf7w Жыл бұрын
Catholics still believe Father is source of Divinity to Son and Spirit
@diegobarragan4904
@diegobarragan4904 Жыл бұрын
That’s not the issue. The issue is that Rome believes that the Son is also a source.
@mirelaalina4050
@mirelaalina4050 Жыл бұрын
My favourite Father, please could you visit Romania and Uk? ❤ Please bless me, Father! ✝️
@OmarDenison
@OmarDenison 7 ай бұрын
For the first two centuries of the Church, the Holy Spirit was not regarded as a hypostatically-distinct divine being, but only as an operative aspect of the life of God.
@johnnyd2383
@johnnyd2383 6 ай бұрын
The Epistle of St. Ignatius to the Trallians, Chapter VI "They introduce God as a Being unknown; they suppose Christ to be unbegotten; and as to the Spirit, they do not admit that He exists. Some of them say that the Son is a mere man, and that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are but the same person, and that the creation is the work of God, not by Christ, but by some other strange power." So we see St. Ignatius speaking about errors of those who did not hold the Three as separate persons... And he lived at what time.?
@therealteacher8630
@therealteacher8630 10 ай бұрын
Oooooh Wonderful! I like this video. I have always talked about the topic to my fellow Anglicans. I tell them that the Battle between Rome and the East is not the Filioque issue, but authority! The Eastern Orthodox shall be sincere to tell us that it is not wrong that the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father and the Son, because the Bible also affirms it. But the question is who affirmed! They simply don't want to follow the path that Rome has taken, even if it is correct! In Anglicanism however, we are free, as long as we are practicing Scripture! We use both the Original and the New version, because both have no problem. "The Ghost proceeding from the Father" does not mean "The Ghost proceeding from the Father alone". So where necessary, we or for further clarity on the Trinity, we use the Filioque Creed even when we know that in 325 AD the Filioque issue was not raised. After all, it is in Scripture. Otherwise thanks
@mauriciogranados2908
@mauriciogranados2908 8 ай бұрын
The Italians and westernized Church believe they have the Right to reform the councils by their own, the Christianism born in the EAST and that´s were the truly faith remain,
@AlecMajerison
@AlecMajerison Жыл бұрын
<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="390">6:30</a>-<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="645">10:45</a> Fr. Josiah breaks it down.☦️
@JihadScarf
@JihadScarf Жыл бұрын
Proceeds from the Father and the Son
@georgiacap9294
@georgiacap9294 Жыл бұрын
Nope!
@ionictheist349
@ionictheist349 Жыл бұрын
Once a heretic always a heretic
@kp7100
@kp7100 5 ай бұрын
Proceeds from the Father. Who with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified. Not proceeds from the Father and the Son
@JihadScarf
@JihadScarf 5 ай бұрын
@kp7100 The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. They are Co- Equal, Co- Eternal. "... the Father and I are One." Look up and read the Athanasian Creed, from St Athanasius Bishop of Alexandria in the 4th century
@kroyy3629
@kroyy3629 11 күн бұрын
No pope has ever condemned filioque. Some of them forbade to put it in the credo. And they said it was ok to believe in it.
@dave_ecclectic
@dave_ecclectic 2 күн бұрын
I have two questions about the filioque Why wasn't a council called to settle this. as this is why most councils are called for Why did it take so many centuries for this to become such an important item to supposedly be the cause of the schism of the Church?
@1989221
@1989221 Жыл бұрын
Thank you Father, i learn a lot from this video.
@victoriabenjamin6484
@victoriabenjamin6484 Жыл бұрын
My head literally hurts when I try to understand what the problem is. My humble grasp of all this is that God exists outside of time, therefore the Father+Son+Holy Spirit exist in a n infinite loop. All 3 being one and the same, and yet 3 distinct personas. Isn't that why it's called a mystery? Our simple minds cannot grasp it...I just get a deep sadness when I think about what God must think about all our bickering over who is right. Reminds me of when the Apostles were fighting over who got to sit where in Heaven...sigh..we are such a mess!
@LadyMaria
@LadyMaria Жыл бұрын
Persons, not Personas. Personas entails modes. God is not modes. These things matter. This is how we know God. This He has revealed to us. To say it's not important says getting to know Him isn't important. We should know the basics in mind and heart. Heresies lead one away from God, outside of the Church.
@agiasf7330
@agiasf7330 Жыл бұрын
Who's going to sit where relative to the Lord in His Kingdom is vastly different from believing the Truth as opposed to falsehood. The former is self-aggrandizement. The latter is to not be misled by the evil one, who, through heresy, leads people away from God. Heresy is not lightly to be dismissed. It separates us from reality, truth, God. It is a lie from the Father of lies, who lies in order to kill--cause eternal death. Heresy, unless one repents of it (& to repent is to return to truth, to God, Who is the Truth) always leads to more heresy. This, sadly, is what happened to the papalists & those who reacted to their (the papalists') false beliefs, teachings, abuses. By their fruits ye shall know them.
@despairknot
@despairknot Жыл бұрын
​@@LadyMaria That is why Fr Sophrony insists that it is only in Christianity, where God is revealed in three personae (Mt 28:19), that we find the completion of the revelation about divine persona. Since the personae in their threeness cannot be reduced to their essence it follows that their relationship is determined by their personeity and not by their essence. Their self-determination in eternity is the eternal fact. In divine being, which is utterly personal, self-determination of the divine hypostases derives from the hypostases themselves and is in no way predetermined or imposed by the essence. Hence the first implication: in its self-determination in relations, persona is absolutely free. No factor necessitates its determination: “Where there is no liberty, there is no persona; and vice versa-without persona there is no liberty. This kind of eternal being uniquely concerns the persona, in no way the individual (cf 1Cor 15:47-50).” - I Love Therefore I Am; The Theological Legacy of Archimandrite (Saint) Sophrony Nicholas V. Sakharov ST VLADIMIR’S SEMINARY PRESS YONKERS, NEW YORK
@sfappetrupavelandrei
@sfappetrupavelandrei Жыл бұрын
These dogmas are not just bickering over who is right. They have strong consequences in the way the spirituality of the Church developed. As a father once said (father Rafail Noica), the Filioque is the reason why the Catholic and Orthodox spirituality developed in 2 different ways. For those of us who have a somewhat moral life, it may seem that it is not a big deal. But once you start to reach the peak of the Christian spirituality you will see that these differences protect you against being deceived by the devil.
@Val.Kyrie.
@Val.Kyrie. Жыл бұрын
That's the problem. You worship a completely different God. These things matter. Your understanding is that God has modes, you're a modalist, which has been a condemned heresy for around 1500 years.
@codynunez5246
@codynunez5246 Жыл бұрын
I really do love and admire my Orthodox brethren, but even before I returned to my Catholic faith years ago the Orthodox argument against the Filioque never made sense, and still doesn't, to me. John <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="926">15:26</a>: Jesus says, "But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me." The presence of "whom I will send to you" suggests the Son's involvement in the procession of the Holy Spirit. The Father and His Only Begotten Son are eternal and the Holy Spirit is the love they share.
@LadyMaria
@LadyMaria Жыл бұрын
It makes clear sense to me. RCs confuse eternal procession and temporal (economic). Eternally the Spirit proceeds from the Father alone, as the Son is begotten by the Father alone. Temporally/Economically (like at Pentecost), the Spirit is **sent** from the Father through the Son. Two different things. The former is what the Filioque is getting at, and that is heresy as no two Persons of the Holy Trinity share a faculty that the other does not. That would make the Holy Spirit a lesser god, not God, and be a form of Arianism.
@agiasf7330
@agiasf7330 Жыл бұрын
Of course our Lord sends the HS. Of course our Lord was incarnate of the HS & the Virgin Mary. But what have these to do with the Eternal Procession of the HS from the Father (& not also from the Son) or our Lord being begotten by the Father (& not by the HS)? Only the Father is Unoriginate. The other two Persons of the Most Holy Trinity originate from the Father. The Son is begotten eternally by the Father, the HS proceeds eternally from the Father. It is really not confusing. Very clear. What is so difficult to understand? If I send you to do something, does it mean you originate in me?
@agiasf7330
@agiasf7330 Жыл бұрын
Listen again (this time attentively) to what Fr Josiah says. Try also reading St Gregory Palamas' Apodictic Treatises, now, for the first time, available in English. It is published by Uncut Mountain Press (UMP). May the Lord guide you into all truth.
@codynunez5246
@codynunez5246 Жыл бұрын
Yes! @BCaTo To quote Saint Cardinal Robert Bellarmine regarding the Eastern Fathers acceptance of the Filioque: "First the Council celebrated at Alexandria, from which Council Cyril writes a letter to Nestorius in which are these words, ‘The Spirit is called the Spirit of Truth, and Christ is Truth, and so He proceeds from Him likewise as from the Father.’ This letter was read in the Council of Ephesus and was approved both by the Council of Ephesus itself and by the fourth Synod, and by the fifth Synod and by the sixth and seventh Synods. We have therefore five general Councils celebrated among the Greeks which receive the most open and clear opinion that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son as from the Father."
@codynunez5246
@codynunez5246 Жыл бұрын
@BCaToit’s funny how online you would think there are absolutely zero Orthodox who accept the Filioque but when actually meet Orthodox Christians in person and in their parishes you learn that MANY accept and have no issue with it.
@viz8746
@viz8746 6 ай бұрын
John <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="967">16:7</a> ".... I will send him to you" vs John <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="866">14:26</a> "... whom the Father will send.... " and John <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="856">14:16</a> "... and I will ask the Father, and He will give you...." ... 🙏✝👍😄
@vasileseicaru8740
@vasileseicaru8740 7 ай бұрын
I know that you have to pick and choose which concepts get special treatment and which are only glossed over, due to time constraints, but I think you should have paid special attention to one concept: "to proceed from". Many people who have learned the creed may be under the impression that they don't need this concept defined, but I assure you that they do need this concept defined. And understanding this concept is the key to fully understanding the implications of the filiogue.
@minayowitz3268
@minayowitz3268 Ай бұрын
A very good explanation of the issue. No doubt the Orthodox church is closer to the truth than the Catholic one. I will certainly join them if they were to acknowledge than they were wrong when they decided to make Sunday and not the Sabbath as ordained in the Ten Commandments the "day of the Lord".
@Mr.C-you-later
@Mr.C-you-later 3 ай бұрын
No false union with Rome
@disneyfamof8215
@disneyfamof8215 Ай бұрын
Hello father I am Protestant but for the last several months I have been learning about orthodoxy and it’s truth. I have actually been chewing on this very thing for days trying to understand. Can you help me understand this verse “John answered and said to them all, “As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.” ‭‭Luke‬ ‭3‬:‭16‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬ Hear my heart I ask out of genuine desire to learn not contempt. It makes sense the spirit only proceeds from the father but this verse seems to stand in the way for me in believing fully in this.
@davidefantoni874
@davidefantoni874 6 ай бұрын
Echumenical council of Florence proved the opposite. That filioque isnt heretic. Council approved by all 5 patriarchs of pentarchy, with Emperor present, signed by patriarchs. So valid. So... Who are not following Councils canons?
@johnnyd2383
@johnnyd2383 6 ай бұрын
We Orthodox are puzzled as to whether to cry or to laugh at such an utter nonsense... Lucky me there is no bridge near by I can jump from in desperation over RCC ridiculousness.
@fr.Angel21
@fr.Angel21 4 ай бұрын
The Dimond brothers refuted your arguments smoothly with sources and evidence. Check it out.
@janrobert3176
@janrobert3176 6 ай бұрын
John <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="1222">20:22</a> And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost. There it is in the bible, Jesus breathing on the disciples, and they received the Holy Ghost. It does not get much clearer that the Holy Ghost proceeded from the Son as well as the Father.
@AULIGAofBLEED
@AULIGAofBLEED 10 ай бұрын
Thank you for this explanation
@bobskanal
@bobskanal 3 ай бұрын
The North American Orthodox-Catholic Theological Consultation found an agreement in 2003.
@eens9579
@eens9579 2 ай бұрын
As a Catholic I was taught that this issue was almost resolved when the Catholics were willing to remove "and the Son" and replace it with "through the Son". Would that help or is it still a heresy?
@oogaleeboogalee6522
@oogaleeboogalee6522 Ай бұрын
The original problem of the filioque was more so about the fact the creed was changed, by the Pope, without any consent of the other 4 Patriarchs of the pentarchy. The Eastern Orthodox Church keeps the creed in its original Niceno-Constantinopolitan form without addition because many councils after the introduction of that creed explicitly state that the creed cannot be edited or modified. If someone were to add to the creed, that would present a huge spiritual problem, as you would be saying the Holy Spirit forgot something at the 2nd Ecumenical Council.
@Al-gv5uw
@Al-gv5uw Жыл бұрын
I am not convinced
@deiviboi
@deiviboi 6 ай бұрын
Church Father on St John <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="926">15:26</a> Theophilus of Antioch 184 ad - he says he does whom I will send to you this declaring equality of the Father and son. John Chrysostum 407 ad -behold, it is no longer the Father alone, but the Son also who sends. Cyril of Alexander 444 ad - for as the Spirit naturally belongs to the Son, being in Him and proceeding through Him, so also He belongs to the Father. Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus
@Vas___44
@Vas___44 4 ай бұрын
jesus bless you
@pete3397
@pete3397 7 ай бұрын
You know it would be a good start if the Orthodox didn't declare every disagreement with them a heresy. Technically, the Western position is that the Holy Spirit comes from the Father through the Son, and thus the Holy Spirit proceeds from a single principle. Without stating that the Holy Spirit proceeds through the Son there is no relationship established between two of the Persons of the Trinity (Christ and the Holy Spirit) and thereby makes Christ and the Holy Spirit unequal to the Father thereby contradicting the doctrine of the Trinity being monotheistic. Without the "and the Son" the Trinity becomes polytheistic. Moreover, the Western position was confirmed by the Patriach Tarasius I of Constantinople (ca. 784 or so) so there has been agreement on this between East and West in the past even with the differences in language. And that is what this is: a linguistic difference between the Western Church's use of Latin and the Eastern Church's use of Greek and that the language used in the Creeds derived from Latin requires the "and the Son" in order to preserve the equality of the Persons of the Trinity.
@johnnyd2383
@johnnyd2383 6 ай бұрын
We can not but speak the Truth - every diversion from the original Faith as preserved in the EOC is heresy. (period)
@pete3397
@pete3397 6 ай бұрын
@@johnnyd2383 That would be fine if the EOC had a monopoly on the Truth, but it doesn't, and thefact that the EOC has had more than a few of its own diversions from the historic teachings and doctrines of the Church proves that it cannot condemn others as heretical as its own practices, by the same EOC standard, must also condemn heresies in the EOC. Throwing the label "heresy" around as loosely as the EOC does should probably be an indicator of the general theological sloppiness far too many in the EOC adhere to.
@johnnyd2383
@johnnyd2383 6 ай бұрын
@@pete3397 Assertion: "EOC has had more than a few of its own diversions from the historic teachings and doctrines". Examples.?
@SOWWHATAPOLOGETICS
@SOWWHATAPOLOGETICS Жыл бұрын
The New Testament says that The Father and Jesus both send the Holy Spirit. This man did not go into the biblical text (or did he and I just didn't catch it?).
@amakrid
@amakrid 8 ай бұрын
Just meditate about the following verse: "“But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father (sic) will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.” (John 14:26) Why didn't Jesus say "the Holy Spirit whom I will send to you"? On the other hand, we read that “He breathed on them and said to them, 'Receive the Holy Spirit'” (John 20:22) How can we conciliate those verses?
@SOWWHATAPOLOGETICS
@SOWWHATAPOLOGETICS 8 ай бұрын
@@amakrid The Father sent the Spirit to the Son first and then the Son sent the Spirit when he breathed on the disciples? Is that what you're saying?
@amakrid
@amakrid 8 ай бұрын
@@SOWWHATAPOLOGETICS Look; whatever we write on paper concerning the Trinity can be proven to be problematic, since the words we use have been constructed to reflect the reality of this world and noth of the heavenly realm. For instance, to the Western theologians, the traditional Credo could imply that the Word is a lesser Person in comparison to the Father and so, they tried to correct it by inserting the Filioque. Their aims were good for sure and from their point of view, against Arianism, they wished to undeline that the Father and the Son are One. To the Eastern Church though, the Filioque initiated a diarchy in the Trinity: The Spirit seemed to proceed from two different sources, let alone that this depiction is in contrast to the first verse I gave you. If you consider that the insertion of the Filioque came right after the Pope claimed to be "Vicarius Filii Dei" on Earth (Representative of the Son of God) it was obvious to the East that things were getting out of control... The Orthodox accept that the Spirit proceeds from the Father "through" the Son to us. It's a verbal and theological formula that could unite both Churches today in my opinion, while leaving the original Credo intact.
@michelleg7
@michelleg7 10 ай бұрын
The Filioque is literally in the bible, its in the Gospel of John. " John <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="967">16:7</a>, jesus says I will send the holy spirit to you", here we see that Jesus says he will send holy spirit. John <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="973">16:13</a>-15 "However, when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and He will declare to you what is to come. 14 He will glorify Me by taking from what is Mine and disclosing it to you. 15 Everything that belongs to the Father is Mine. That is why I said that the Spirit will take from what is Mine and disclose it to you", John <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="845">14:5</a>-14 " Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?” 6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you will know[b] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.” 8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.” 9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it." The way to god is through the son hence why we say through the father to the son and to the holy spirit. Jesus commanded the holy spirit not the other way around. SO its fine if you want to disagree with the filioque. But just know the quotes are also in the Greek orthodox bible because I checked.
@coopahtroopah1175
@coopahtroopah1175 Жыл бұрын
Not quite sure how to feel about the filioque (for context, I’m a Protestant). On the one hand, the fact that the West inserted it into the creed without calling an ecumenical council is a travesty and inexcusable. Also, I think Father Trenham is right in saying that the Filioque confuses the roles of the Father and the Son by simply saying that the Spirit proceeds from them both. On the other hand, I’m not sure the East adequately accounts for the Son’s unique relationship to the Holy Spirit. Scripture makes it abundantly clear that the Son *sends* the Spirit (John <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="926">15:26</a>, John <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="967">16:7</a>, Acts <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="152">2:32</a>-33, Titus <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="185">3:5</a>-7). This is different from procession, and yet it affirms that the Son does have a role to play in relation to the Spirit. There have been some theologians (some of them Orthodox!) who have proposed a version of the creed that says, “who proceeds from the Father THROUGH the Son,” and I think this is a great solution to the East/West divide on the Creed. Or perhaps pulling from the explicit language of Scripture, it could be something like “who proceeds from the Father and is sent by the Son.” The affirmation of Christ’s full divinity that motivated the West to write the filioque is satisfied, and the East’s desire to affirm the uniqueness of each person in the Trinity is also satisfied. Most important of all, it’s explicitly scriptural. I know it’s a far-off dream on my part, but I would love to see an ecumenical council of Orthodox, Catholics, and Protestants that settle on a single version of the creed once and for all. I know it won’t solve every matter of church division, but having a universally accepted creed would be a great start. I mean hey, this century marks the 2,000th anniversary of Christ’s Resurrection, the 1,000th anniversary of the Great Schism, and the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation. What better century than this one to take a radical step toward a reunited church? May God bless you all. Psalm 1<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="1981">33:1</a>
@Cosmere99
@Cosmere99 Жыл бұрын
Except that's the thing, it was already settled once and for all, and yet the filioque was added by the West. That's the issue lol
@bolshoefeodor6536
@bolshoefeodor6536 Жыл бұрын
@ coopahtroopah You advocate for the Ecumenist heresy. The Creed was already settled. Protestants and Roman Papalists need to begin confessing it as is. Done. It takes about 2-3 minutes to recite.
@bolshoefeodor6536
@bolshoefeodor6536 Жыл бұрын
​@@david_porthouseBecause you left the Church and adhere to heresies and blasphemies. Why would we attend?
@MrWesford
@MrWesford Жыл бұрын
A big point of confusion for the Latins is that The Holy Spirit proceeds from The Son, only in a temporal sense, the way we see in Scripture. In a hypostatic sense, The Holy Spirit proceeds from The Father Alone. So, there’s confusion between The Relationship of the persons of The Trinity from all eternity, and historical events.
@humbledandgrateful7411
@humbledandgrateful7411 Жыл бұрын
​@@MrWesfordAs one of the "Latins", I do not confuse the Holy Spirit with an angel that is merely 'sent' by the Father or the Son. It is the Holy Spirit's function to preserve what the Father created and the Son redeemed. The Spirit would act on His Own as He sees fit in His function of preservation, wouldn't He?
@on_the_journey_101
@on_the_journey_101 10 ай бұрын
Ty for this explanation
@tgrogan6049
@tgrogan6049 5 ай бұрын
Pope Benedict XIV, Allatae Sunt #6, 30, July 26, 1755: “That man too would betray his ignorance of ecclesiastical history who did not know that the union with the Orientals confirmed that they would accept the dogma of the procession of the Holy Spirit from the Father and the Son… the first question is whether the procession of the Holy Spirit from the Father and the Son is a dogma of the Faith. This question has always been firmly answered that there is no room for doubting that this procession is a dogma of the Faith and that every true Catholic accepts and professes this.”
@Yesunimwokozi1
@Yesunimwokozi1 Жыл бұрын
I think this gives room for arians...
@nicadag
@nicadag 11 ай бұрын
How dare you make sense. Shuuuuuuuuuu listen to all the revisionist armchair apologists trying to battle over the Filioque with modern lense in mind and not the state of Church and most dangerous heresies of the time when the Filioque issue arose. Interestingly, this is also how I view it. I think the Filioque helps at once eliminate the Arian error. I also believe as did Bellermine, the notion that Islam was born from the Arian framework of thinking- and subsequently a heresy gone wild. By the stripping the divinity of Christ. Where did the birthplace of Mohammedism aka Islam occur? In the EAST (Saudi Arabia), and not the west.
@acekoala457
@acekoala457 9 ай бұрын
​@@nicadag While Islam was ravaging the East the West was still dealing with Arianism in decent sized pockets in Germania and even Rome itself. Non Sequitor
@nicadag
@nicadag 9 ай бұрын
@@acekoala457 my point exactly. While the West was continuing to battling Arianism, and countering it with these types of things mentioned above, it was the East which was struggling and being dominated by Islamic thought and aggression (unchecked Arianism at its core). The West met the Islam of the day with as much tolerance as Kissinger with Communism 😅 Anywho, my main point still stands, the West tried to address the issue at its root, and the filioque narrative of the EO side fails or pretends to not care about this component. The world today, in terms of development and prosperity (albeit long term prosperity leads to weak mean and hard times but that’s a subject for another day 😅) owes it largely in part to the development of the West and the progress and thought it brought into the world. My thesis is that at its core this all began from the time the church ruptured in 1054, and further divided with disunity on the filioque clause. This allowed the pervasiveness of Islam today. The East couldn’t even defeat Islamic aggression and had no real unity to stand on to combine with all its so called EO “churches” to bring about a cessation of muslim intimidation.
@grand.geometrician
@grand.geometrician Жыл бұрын
This is where I'm not ordained. The things we're talking about here are real, you know!!
@ninaarpolahti3582
@ninaarpolahti3582 Жыл бұрын
Thank you.
@charliesloan6059
@charliesloan6059 Жыл бұрын
End credits music sounds like Halo load screen. I'm now Orthodox.
@grunt9950
@grunt9950 3 ай бұрын
"Heresy", meanwhile the orthodox church : allows contraceptions and divorces.
@oogaleeboogalee6522
@oogaleeboogalee6522 Ай бұрын
Nice strawman with 0 sources or context
@matina_angel
@matina_angel 4 ай бұрын
As soon as they put filioque, the Grace flew away from Catholic church and thus the other dogmas that followed (protestantism, lutherianism, evangelism etc etc)
@andytheindividual3862
@andytheindividual3862 3 ай бұрын
But doesnt Jesus give the holy spirit when he dies as a gift?
@tedartuso2024
@tedartuso2024 11 ай бұрын
From a brother in Christ Catholic, may my Confirmation fire your hearts, the problem with so called "orthodoxy" is that those who proclaim to be orthodox break even further the orthodoxy of the Nicene Creed. The title of Katholikos, "universal" is a term older than orthodox in the use of the Church. "Orthodox" seems to corrupt the notion that the Church in Rome is not according to Orthodox teaching. It is a pseudo protestant way of denigrating the church. As if Catholics were against Orthodoxy against Tradition and tradition. True orthodox should point out the errors in the prelates of the Church. This is what happens: any theological term that we use is being manipulated to ambiguity due to pride on the "orthodox” Christians at one side. The Church is hierarchical and authoritative, our Orthodox brothers are beginning to see that over one simple term "Filioque" you justify not abiding to any authority. Furthermore, the good cardinal prelates try at every chance to CLARIFY Church teaching. Simple Yes or No. The good fruits of orthodoxy are to point out how the exterior matters and how certain customs are relevant, the bad fruits are the lack of communication with hierarchical structure of the Church, Bad fruits: disunion, many baptisms, no clear teaching, one marriage or contraception. In my experience, protestants who reject Scripture become orthodox and bring the same errors back into the good Orthodoxy breaking the structure even further. In other words, protestants should stop calling themselves as Christians and reject Luther once and for all. Many protestants fall into heresy because they lack authority of the Church. When it comes to authority, we must not forget the Apostolic Sucssesion of Saint Peter and Saint Paul of the Church in Rome. Coming from a Laight man who just respects the Bishops so much as successors of the apostles, the discussion of certain "aspects" of the Trinity are irrelevant right now. "The light can only shine through when the smoke of Satan is out of the temple of God". I Proclaim the wanting of Unity between Catholics and Orthodox. May the Church not become a democracy falling short to governments of the world. But just to lighten the mood, we need to remember that "causality" is a term in context of Time which God is not confined to. We can't say that Christ the Second person "Causes" the Spirit, we say proceed. We can say after Christ won against Death He sends the Spirit to the Apostles and to the Theotokos, and Gives the Holy Spirit to the Apostles to Forgive Sins in the Particular form way of the Sacrament Mystery of Penitence. We see clear evidence that the term is not wrong in our Catholic minds. We see many Particular Churches abiding to Rome's teaching when it's clear. But so many temples that once were homes of Saints in Orthodoxy are leaving room for great disunion. Let us Read the Nicene-Constantinople Creed for it's inerrant as to the Nature of the Trinity, putting all protestantisms at bay. We may use orthodoxy but not to protest. Church is not a democracy. My sincere hopes of Union. Let us focus on this Synod as an opportunity to pressure the prelates into Clarification. As a Brazilian I submit my hopes that may Fatima become true, and a great conversion of Sinners happens. But the pandemic has caused too much to the people of God and Pope Francis is not clarifying the anxieties of many members who want to follow Christ. Here in Brazil many churches were closed due to Covid and persists the notion that Science can bring all the answers as if Science didn't come from the Holy Spirit. Where is Holy Water in our Churches, the powerful sacramental. Where are the people of good praying for conversions instead for a War that does not concern Rome's protection, the Holy see, of error. The Pope is there to defend Rome from all Bad teaching. If we deny doctrine over Matrimony, then the devil wins the battle. We say explicitly that there are no blessings for same sex sins, we say no to sinful behavior. May the Pope worry more about sin than wars that will not end until men convert to the One true Faith. Let us fast on Fridays and Worship on Sundays as is the Church teaching on Spirituality most recognized even in the orthodox way. “May they be One as Me and the Father are One”. Sacred Scripture, Tradition, Magisterium. “And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter (rock), and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” De um irmão em Cristo Católico, que a minha Confirmação incendeie os vossos corações, o problema com a chamada “ortodoxia” é que aqueles que se proclamam ortodoxos quebram ainda mais a ortodoxia do Credo Niceno. O título de Katholikos, “universal”, é um termo mais antigo que o ortodoxo no uso da Igreja. “Ortodoxo” parece corromper a noção de que a Igreja em Roma não está de acordo com o ensinamento Ortodoxo. É uma forma pseudo protestante de denegrir a igreja. Como se os católicos fossem contra a Ortodoxia, contra a Tradição e a tradição. Os verdadeiros ortodoxos deveriam apontar os erros dos prelados da Igreja. Isto é o que acontece: qualquer termo teológico que usamos está sendo manipulado até a ambiguidade devido ao orgulho dos cristãos “ortodoxos” de um lado. A Igreja é hierárquica e autoritária, nossos irmãos ortodoxos estão começando a ver que com um simples termo “Filioque "você justifica não obedecer a nenhuma autoridade. Além disso, os bons cardeais prelados tentam em todas as oportunidades ESCLARECER o ensinamento da Igreja. Simples Sim ou Não. Os bons frutos da ortodoxia são apontar como o exterior importa e como certos costumes são relevantes, o Frutos ruins são a falta de comunicação com a estrutura hierárquica da Igreja, Frutos ruins: desunião, muitos batismos, nenhum ensino claro, um casamento ou contracepção. Na minha experiência, os protestantes que rejeitam as Escrituras tornam-se ortodoxos e trazem os mesmos erros de volta aos bons A Ortodoxia quebra ainda mais a estrutura. Por outras palavras, os protestantes deveriam parar de se autodenominar cristãos e rejeitar Lutero de uma vez por todas. Muitos protestantes caem na heresia porque lhes falta a autoridade da Igreja. No que diz respeito à autoridade, não devemos esquecer a sucessão apostólica de São Pedro e de São Paulo da Igreja em Roma. Vindo de um homem leigo que respeita tanto os Bispos como sucessores dos apóstolos, a discussão de certos “aspectos” da Trindade é irrelevante neste momento. “A luz só pode brilhar quando a fumaça de Satanás sai do templo de Deus”. Proclamo o desejo de unidade entre católicos e ortodoxos. Que a Igreja não se torne uma democracia aquém dos governos do mundo. Mas só para aliviar o clima, precisamos lembrar que “causalidade” é um termo no contexto do Tempo ao qual Deus não está confinado. Não podemos dizer que Cristo, a Segunda pessoa, “causa” o Espírito, dizemos prossiga. Podemos dizer que depois que Cristo venceu a Morte, Ele enviou o Espírito aos Apóstolos e à Theotokos, e deu o Espírito Santo aos Apóstolos para perdoar os pecados na forma particular do Mistério Sacramento da Penitência. Vemos evidências claras de que o termo não está errado nas nossas mentes católicas. Vemos muitas Igrejas Particulares aderindo ao ensinamento de Roma quando este é claro. Mas tantos templos que outrora foram lares de santos na Ortodoxia estão abrindo espaço para grande desunião. Leiamos o Credo Niceno-Constantinopla pois é inerrante quanto à Natureza da Trindade, colocando todos os protestantismos sob controle. Podemos usar a ortodoxia, mas não para protestar. A Igreja não é uma democracia. Minhas sinceras esperanças de União. Concentremo-nos neste Sínodo como uma oportunidade para pressionar os prelados ao Esclarecimento. Como brasileiro, apresento minhas esperanças de que Fátima se torne realidade e que aconteça uma grande conversão dos pecadores. Mas a pandemia causou demasiado ao povo de Deus e o Papa Francisco não esclarece as ansiedades de muitos membros que querem seguir a Cristo. Aqui no Brasil muitas igrejas foram fechadas por conta da Covid e persiste a noção de que a Ciência pode trazer todas as respostas como se a Ciência não viesse do Espírito Santo. Onde está a Água Benta em nossas Igrejas, o poderoso sacramental. Onde estão as pessoas de bem orando por conversões em vez de por uma Guerra que não diz respeito à proteção de Roma, da Santa Sé, do erro. O Papa está lá para defender Roma de todos os maus ensinamentos. Se negarmos a doutrina sobre o Matrimônio, então o diabo vence a batalha. Dizemos explicitamente que não há bênçãos para os pecados do mesmo sexo, dizemos não ao comportamento pecaminoso. Que o Papa se preocupe mais com o pecado do que com as guerras que não terminarão até que os homens se convertam à Única e Verdadeira Fé. Jejuemos às sextas-feiras e adoremos aos domingos, como é o ensinamento da Igreja sobre Espiritualidade mais reconhecido até mesmo na forma ortodoxa. “Que eles sejam Um como Eu e o Pai somos Um”. Tradição, Sagrada Escritura, Magistério. “Abençoado és tu Simão, filho de Jonas, pois nem o Corpo nem o Sangue te Revelaram isso mas meu Pai que está no Céu. Pois eu digo que tu és Pedra (Cephas) e sobre essa Cephas edificarei a minha Igreja e os portões do inferno não prevalecerão contra ela.
@6958921
@6958921 9 ай бұрын
The answer is at <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="390">6:30</a>
@damianperez7736
@damianperez7736 Жыл бұрын
Trent horn should do a Video response to this video
@wauliepalnuts6134
@wauliepalnuts6134 Жыл бұрын
How does one respond to truth? With lies.
@damianperez7736
@damianperez7736 Жыл бұрын
@@wauliepalnuts6134 Or better yet, a lie can only be responded by the Truth
@IsaiahWilson-k4o
@IsaiahWilson-k4o Жыл бұрын
​@@damianperez7736how is this a lie?
@IsaiahWilson-k4o
@IsaiahWilson-k4o Жыл бұрын
​@@wauliepalnuts6134how is this truth?
@NavelOrangeGazer
@NavelOrangeGazer Жыл бұрын
Trent should make a video explaining why he denies the truth of the Trinity in the Old Testament.
@jasonpinto1013
@jasonpinto1013 Жыл бұрын
So what is your solution to remedy this problem
@pj_ytmt-123
@pj_ytmt-123 9 ай бұрын
Well, we can always recite the Apostles' Creed in private devotion. And it's shorter, too! 🎉🎉🎉
@benjaminisales5386
@benjaminisales5386 8 ай бұрын
What is the relationship between the Son and the Spirit in eastern orthodox theology?
@amakrid
@amakrid 8 ай бұрын
The Spirit proceeds from the Father and we receive it "through" the Son.
@benjaminisales5386
@benjaminisales5386 8 ай бұрын
@@amakrid so it is appropriate to refer to the Spirit as the spirit of Christ?
@amakrid
@amakrid 8 ай бұрын
@@benjaminisales5386 It is appropriate, if we understand what we mean with that term. This term is found thrice in the New Testament, we also find it later, for example in the epistle of St. Ignatius the God Bearer to the Magnesians (a very early document of the Christian Church from the 2nd century AD) where St. Ignatius speaks of "the Spirit of Jesus Christ". Fact is that we don't meet that phrasing very often in the documents of the Eastern Church. The problem doesn't lie in the phrasing per se, but in our understanding of it. For instance, the Gospel of John starts with the phrase "In the begining was the Word"; it doesn't say "in the begining was the Word of God". Do we believe that the Word existed independently from God? No. We all know that Jesus is the Son of God, born from Him "before all ages". Things aren't so obvious though with the Holy Spirit, because in the end, we are unable to fully comprehend the mystery which the Trinity implies. The problem with Filioque was that it seemed to establish a diarchy in the Trinity. In the original Credo, it was understood that the Spirit derives from the Father, and since "the Father and the Son are One", Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit and could send it to the others, without breaking the Unity of the three Persons. With the insertion of the phrase "and from the Son" though (with good intentions in the begining) one could wonder for the reasons of that verbal separation. In my opinion, the greatest problem was that from the 9th century, the Pope had claimed that he was Vicarius Filii Dei on Earth (Representative of the Son of God). When the Church of Rome inserted the Filioque in the Credo during the 11th century, it was as if the "Represantative" was elevating himself to unprecedented levels...
@EC42904
@EC42904 6 ай бұрын
@@amakridthis is exactly how I have always understood the Holy Spirit as a Roman Catholic, which is why I cannot for the life of me understand all the Orthodox reeeeing on the issue as anything other than plastering over what was, at its base, a political falling out more than a theological one.
@amakrid
@amakrid 6 ай бұрын
@@EC42904 You are right and wrong in the same time my friend. Let me explain it to you as an intellectual and not as ana apologist! The Filioque was a politicall issue of great importance. The Western Church was using the term for quite a few centuries without anyone bothering to blame the Pope for heresy. I'd add that the pretext for the first schism was the demand of the Eastern Roman (Byzantine) Emperor to depose the legitimate Patriarch of Constantinople (who was criticizing his morals) and appoint another one, favorite to him (Photius "The Great"). The Pope as Primus ante Pares acted absolutely legitimally, refusing the dethroning of the Eastern Patriarch - but then, the new Patriarch raised the issue of Filioque. The above prove your understanding to a certain degree. There is more to that though. One could also ask: Why did Pope Leo III, who personaly agreed with the Filioque, denied the change in the Credo, and ordered the original Credo to be written on two silver shields and be exposed at the Vatican? Well, intellectually speaking, I can give you a few reasons: First of all, the fact that you perceive the Filioque as "through the Son", it doesn't mean that everyone who reads the Credo understands the same thing. Consider for instance, that the Father and the Son are "male" figures, bearing a name, while the Spirit is neutral. If it proceeds from the Father and the Son, it can very easily be understood as an IDENTITY of God and not as a Person - exactly the way the Jews understand the term "Spirit of God". Then there is another issue: If the Spirit proceeds from the Son, i.e. Christ, what about the Body of Christ which is the Church? Can we seperate the Son from the Church? This is a very serious question. If you can seperate the Son from the Church, that means that the Church may err, not only practically but also doctrinaly. If you can't, then you have to acknowledge that the Spirit proceeds And From the Church. Considering that during those troubled times, the Latin Church introduced the notion that the Pope is "Vicarius Filii Dei" in this world, one can understand that the politicall issue wasn't far away from the theological and vice versa. This is at least, my understanding. Spend some time meditating on the above if you wish...
@joelvarghese3370
@joelvarghese3370 8 ай бұрын
But if you're saying that if the holy spirit proceeds from the Son makes the holy spirit less, then that means that the holy spirit is already less than the father because the holy spirit already proceeds from the Father.
@jasonobermeyer1865
@jasonobermeyer1865 7 ай бұрын
Where does the idea that any aspect not shared by all has to be the procession of only one come from? It's is derived from the fact that they are co-equal?
@randykinder268
@randykinder268 6 ай бұрын
I don't agree with his argument that the philioque is blasphemous. He seems to suggest the notion that there are only 2 kinds of attributes: A) divine attributes shared by all members of the Godhead, and B) individual attributes unique to the persons. But why not C) attributes shared by 2 members of the Trinity and not by the other member? Furthermore, why would "C" constitute a degrading of the member lacking the attribute, anymore than "B" would constitute elevating the attribute holder above the other 2? As far as evidence that the Holy Spirit proceeded from the son, I look no further than John <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="967">16:7</a> "...but if I go, I will send him to you.". That's Jesus saying he will send the Holy Spirit (thus, the HS proceeding from the Son)
@mtalk828
@mtalk828 6 ай бұрын
🤔Yes, Jesus sends the Holy Spirit, but the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. To send and proceed are two different things. Indeed you look no further in quoting John 16:7 ... because in John 15:26 Jesus defines what He means by SEND and what He means by proceed. He declares, *"But when the Comforter is come, whom I will SEND unto you FROM the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which PROCEEDETH FROM the Father, He shall testify of me..."* ☝🏽Here, Jesus makes it clear that the Holy Spirit comes from the Father, and through Him, He sends the Spirit to us. Jesus is clear in John 15:26. The Holy Spirit does NOT PROCEED from the Son. Roman Catholics are teaching heresy when they say He does. If the Holy Spirit "proceeds" from Jesus, then Jesus being both "man and God" at the same time, would produce a spirit from "man and God." But the Spirit can never be of man! The Holy Spirit is beyond man and thus He must proceed from the Unseen Father, the Source of all things. As well, such imbalance of the Trinity makes the incarnation of Jesus appear weak that the Holy Spirit must originate and proceed from Him to accomplish the work of salvation. Because to do so would imply that the Holy Spirit receive from Jesus a body as well. Before Jesus was born, there was the Holy Spirit. So how could the Holy Spirit proceed from Jesus ???
@sallymiller6139
@sallymiller6139 Жыл бұрын
It all sounds very complicated To me and i wonder what this has to do with ones faith and Relationship.with jesus christ
@sfappetrupavelandrei
@sfappetrupavelandrei Жыл бұрын
Well this is the reason why Western and Eastern Christianity is so different in its spirituality and theology. The West is focused on the Being of God (from which it has its own theology and spirituality) while the East is focused on the Persons of the Holy Trinity (from which we developed our own theology and spirituality).
@sallymiller6139
@sallymiller6139 Жыл бұрын
Thank you for your reaction I understand all the theology behind It but my.question is What does this have to do with my Daily walk with Jesus Christ? Will all this intellectual baggage help Me to become a better Christian? I doubt it But some.people need this i guess I just go from what i read in the Bible Love the Lord our God with our whole being and love our neighbor As ourself
@Darth_Vader258
@Darth_Vader258 Ай бұрын
I'm a cradle Catholic and will stay a Catholic, because of my devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary. And the Orthodox Church *REJECTS* the Immaculate Conception.
@voievod9260
@voievod9260 Ай бұрын
Ofcourse it rejects Immaculate Conception because its a heresy. If Mary was born sinless, then it means that her parents were also immaculate, therefore also sinless and also her grandparents would have been born sinless and so on, going back to Adam and Eve.
@YourStylesGeneric321
@YourStylesGeneric321 Ай бұрын
@@voievod9260It does not mean that at all.
@BobBobo-j3n
@BobBobo-j3n 20 күн бұрын
Okay but wasnt the Son conceived throught the Holy Ghost? So even if the Holy Ghoet proceeds from the Father and the Son, wouldnt the Son also proceed from the Father and the Holy Ghost, so its not like the Holy Ghost is demoted?
@janrobert3176
@janrobert3176 9 күн бұрын
John <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="1222">20:22</a> ...........And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost. Here is Jesus breathing on his disciples, and they receive the Holy Ghost. How is this not the Holy Ghost proceeding from the Son?? Please explain.
@lefransmarie
@lefransmarie Ай бұрын
The "Orthodox" objections against the filioque we're definitively refuted at the council of Florence to which the bishops of east signed on to. Whatever excuse the Orthodox give today, you can't deny that historical fact. Meanwhile the theological arguments of the Latin doctors have not been refuted by the confused "orthodox" who can't even define what an ecumenical council is since they fell into schism. Talk to those who are knowledgeable about the issues.
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