Are Retro Video Games Disappearing?!

Are classic video games disappearing? We discuss a recent study that revealed that 87% of games before 2010 are no longer available for sale.
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#gaminghistory #videogamehistory #gamepreservation

[@PatTheNESpunk]

What do you think about the discussion? What can be done to help stem the tide and help the access and preservation of retro games? VGHF article: gamehistory.org/87percent/ Study link: zenodo.org/record/8161056

[@dankhill6851]

Your click bait title made me celebrate retro games crashing prematurely, if you wondered how people react to manipulation, I don't have the ability to look at that as my fault, since it's your influence and not mine.

[@dankhill6851]

Oh we have sociopaths in our family, thats basically the way everyone reacts to manipulation, it's only the manipulators fault, regardless of the damage caused

[@TheHangarHobbit]

I can't speak from the console side but from the Windows side? We need better Win 3.x/Win9X/WinXP emulation which is not going to be easy. a TON of games used hacks back in the 3.1/9x days like using the PC clock for event timers and the early DirectX was a buggy mess so trying to get games even from the 00s to work correctly on a modern 64 bit OS can be tricky as hell.

[@r.g.6799]

Damn as always Ian is right and Pam has no idea what he's talking about

[@dankhill6851]

sociopaths and narcissists are the people they're trying to catch on first 48, my sisters dads a sociopath and he destroyed our family for fun

[@robertbussie9979]

As a Master Librarian I agree that video game history and preservation is very important. These are not just games; they are a part of history.

[@cherokeefit4248]

VHS cassettes were at one point in the early 90’s considered obsolete due to the arrival of the cd but those cassettes are also very important too.

[@robertbussie9979]

@@cherokeefit4248 There are some direct to video horror B-movies that never made it to DVD or Blu-Ray so, I agree that preserving these movies in there original format and backing it up on a digital format will preserve them. There are way too many movies from the silent era that have boon lost to time, because they were not backed up and preserved.

[@cherokeefit4248]

@@robertbussie9979 I see that those B series horror movies that never made it to theatre or dvd have gone up in value. Due to the rarity of it that people now inspect the fast forward/ rewind cogs to verify its authenticity lol

[@havabighed]

Under the DMCA, it is legal to pirate games for archive purposes if they are no longer commercially available... so if you want to use government resources to do some mass piracy with me... I will help you on your journey. I will teach you how to use emulators.... I am a computer scientist. I have been doing this for a minute BECAUSE OF this.

[@GeorgeSerinos]

@@robertbussie9979May I learn from you??? I have searched the earth for a Master, I sit here in front of u… teach me Master teach me

[@blademaster7879]

Unless a game company makes a game currently available it shouldn't be illegal to distribute or download a ROM, PERIOD! The copyright legislation needs to be changed with an abandonware clause.

[@subtledemisefox]

Yes I agree with you! I also think that copyright on *specific works* should expire within a reasonable time frame that varies based on the type of media. Like the original NES release Super Mario Bros. would become legal to share as a ROM, but Nintendo would retain the rights to be the only entity to sell the work, as well as any characters and trademarks, etc. Also any ports or official emulation projects like Virtual Console or NSO would be their own specific works with their own copyright period. So sharing the NES ROM would be ok in this hypothetical world, but sharing the Wii VC .wad file wouldn't, if that makes sense.

[@BoboBreez]

If it werent for rom sites you may have a situation where video games would be truly lost and unplayable. Im sure its probably happened already theres probably some lost video game out there somewhere (likely for pc)

[@Rountree1985]

There are tons of lost computer games, not just “PC”.

[@TRJ2241987]

When I was a kid, probably 1991 or 1992, my Dad had a clunky black and white laptop (IBM maybe?) for his job at Prudential and besides some of the obvious ones like Duke Nukem and Commander Keen, I used to play a few that I think might be totally lost. I used to have a game called Zetris where the pieces moved from the bottom to the top. There was also a 1st person shooter (kind of like Operation Wolf style) where you were a tank shooting at giant spiders

[@OzymandiasWasRight]

Castle of the Winds baby. Great damn game I swear I thought was a dream. There were incredible obscure computer games.

[@THENAMEISQUICKMAN]

I'm very happy to emulate and pirate myself but I'll always support people who say there should be a way to buy all these games legally for those not "in the know" like people like me.

[@danbauer3669]

"I'll always support people" but not financially so I'm really just filling the air with noise and pretending that it's support. "Games should be available but I'm happy and comfortable with never paying for them."

[@backlogbuddies]

Dan, I'd buy ROMs if publishers sold them but they don't.

[@ccricers]

People are also recompiling leaks of source code from 5th gen games to make them compatible on modern systems. There's already a few N64 leaks and I just found out that the classic WipEout for PS1 has been open sourced and ported to Windows, Linux and web browser.

[@backlogbuddies]

@@ccricers I believe WipeOut had a PC release way back in the day and people used that to make the open source windows port.

[@THENAMEISQUICKMAN]

@@danbauer3669 Yeah, dude, let me really financially support the creators of video games by buying scalped copies on eBay. I'm sure that money will trickle down to the people who created fucking Wave Race Blue Storm, right? Asshole.

[@emefcue]

Ian is right. Pat just wants his point heard. Never wants to be "wrong" . Argued totally different idea. Bravo again Ian 🎉 You always keep things grounded. Love that you embraced the "Big big" news too

[@jonwest776]

Completely agree. Yeah we got it Pat the first, time. I agree with him on the controller side, but that's what retro museums do to scratch that itch. Also, these things have a nostalgia window, you mentioned the Spectrum; that's not in your window; but it is in mine; and not in my nephews.

[@marccaselle8108]

Big Big Gang

[@leeartlee915]

Yeah… Ian’s point was pretty straight forward but Pat couldn’t get past the point of view of “himself”.

[@backlogbuddies]

@@leeartlee915 Pat has an issue anytime this topic comes up. Last time he said, "Well should companies keep these around forever? That's not a good business decision" When selling roms on a site like Direct2Drive wouldn't cost the companies anything. He seems to refuse to understand the idea that preservation is having issues and that companies are doing an awful job of keeping games available.

[@johnmickey5017]

For research, even the controller might be totally irrelevant. If the researcher is studying level design, enemy behavior, art styles, character depictions, etc, the control method is not always as important. I’d say that for the majority it will be less important. Just like a film scholar doesn’t need to watch a silent movie in a gas-lit theater with a piano accompaniment.

[@talesfromoldjapan]

The public library I work at has a lending NES, SNES, Sega Genesis, etc collection. We circulate Retron 5 systems with the cartridges. The cost of the games is a problem. We are waiting for the retro game market to crash before we consider expanding our collection. You are right though, Pat. We don't discuss game preservation in the MLIS degree.

[@FenrirFire18]

Idk if it will ever crash again

[@keard558]

As a child who grew up in poverty and homelessness the library is how I kept myself sane. I would watch DVD VHS and surf the Internet and everything felt ok. If video games were there I wouldn't of wasted time playing shockwave games or roms with a keyboard. That is literally something that can change a childs life

[@jupreindeer]

I still remember the day that I stopped by my local library, and they were checking out some disc-based games. Then I went to Blockbusters, and they were desperate enough to be selling books.

[@josephnewberry9290]

Preservation of the stories and ideas, the games as art, is most important. The Epic of Gilgamesh, The Illiad, and Hamlet are hard to come by in their original forms, but I can read them as an ebook and still enjoy them as art. The story is still told, even in a different language and in a new form, and the seeds of ideas will still be planted in the reader. New works of art can grow even if the inspiration wasn't in the original Sumerian on cuneiform tablets. Just like the classics of literature, old games need to be available to study, to inspire, and to enjoy, in a form that is convenient and accessible to the public.

[@shaneg9081]

I went to the University of Arizona, and one of my professors (Ken McAllister) was in charge of building a video game library along with another professor. Currently the collection sits at over 15,000 games and 200 systems.

[@philltendo1480]

No way can you go see it?

[@shaneg9081]

@philltendo1480 Everyone can see it. You might need to do more than that to check things out, but it is a library. I had a standing offer to check items out if they pertained to any subject I was studying at the time, and I'm not anyone special. If you have even the most remote academic interest in gaming history, the University of Arizona video game repository will very likely give you access to their collection.

[@Digdugduggie101]

This segment was exhausting. It felt like listening to couples’ therapy, not a video game podcast.

[@calinator51]

It's pretty obvious here the enthusiasm Ian has on the podcast. I think Ian wasn't happy before because it being a weekly thing it felt like a job he had to attend every week and not just have a fun time. Great to see the both of you doing well!

[@D-Fens_1632]

It is a job.

[@drunkensailor112]

​@@D-Fens_1632not all jobs have to suck though

[@leeartlee915]

One of my favorite channels that’s been tackling this topic is Stop Skeltons from Fighting. They started a show called “Delisted” that shows how games released SINCE 2000 have been disappearing at an alarming rate. The main culprit? Mobile devices.

[@PatrickThomasBrady]

The culprit is mobile devices? Console/PC games are not disappearing because of mobile devices, I think that’s a separate issue, but mobile games are even worse for availability with the vast number of phones, new phones released every year, and OS updates

[@leeartlee915]

@@TheRealCaptainFreedom No, no. I mean that games made FOR mobile platforms are disappearing. Like games for old flip phones or games that worked on iOS 32-bit. Granted, a lot of those games are kinda trash but game preservation isn’t just about good games. It’s about all games.

[@leeartlee915]

@@PatrickThomasBrady Yeah, you got it. Example: there were multiple versions of Resident Evil 4 (For Mobile) that are just gone unless you have it still downloaded on an old phone that works. And emulation for mobile phones is kinda tricky because they’re just so many of them. And that version of RE4 is VERY different than the one originally released on console (i.e. it’s bad… really bad). But that’s the thing, a lot of people don’t seem to notice/care because so many of those games are kinda trash. But I’m of the mindset that ALL games need to be preserved. Even the bad ones. Maybe especially the bad ones. It really incapsulates where society was at a point in time.

[@PatrickThomasBrady]

@@leeartlee915 I’m with ya, it sucks because so many mobile games are probably gone forever and we’ll be able to preserve only so many as long as people having working cell phones that haven’t deleted them, that’s why I think emulation is so important, preservation just naturally happens My reasoning for separating mobile game from console/pc is in a legal sense, the point on this study is provide evidence for why it’s necessary if a video game company attempts to challenge it in court, and the IP/copyright laws could be interpreted differently between the two, the focus should be on traditional games first and then mobile games

[@leeartlee915]

@@PatrickThomasBrady Sure, I wasn’t really speaking directly about this study or anything. Just bringing to light that games in the mobile arena are even more vulnerable. There’s no accumulating a bunch of dead media in your basement to secure its future. And the reality is, “traditional” games are quickly approaching the same issue. That is, no more physical releases. PC games haven’t been tripping as hard on that issue because they tend to work across platforms. But imagine the day when the PS8 is out and it’s all digital (which it will be, almost guaranteed). Will it bring forward all the games from the PS6, which will also likely be all digital as well? Bottom line, it’s all about ripping those ISOs and files to the internet to have them dispersed by the general population. And it’s already true of a lot of failed consoles. Sure, you COULD track down a copy of some game released on 3DO but a) would you want to b) would you want to pay what it costs? We have big problems in this hobby and I’m grateful for studies like this to show what a s***show it already is.

[@HiroesX81]

A video game history course would be a fantastic thing to see. Especially for future game developers and people interested in media.

[@Polyvinci]

Do not worry, my friends. I could see Tommy Talarico and Billy Mitchell joining forces to set up the national video game archive of Amico to preserve our video games. Wouldn't that be something?

[@theomacer3094]

I could see someone else doing that and then Tommy claiming that he did the whole thing

[@ianthefifth7790]

Don't forget Todd Rogers having documented world records on all of them the moment they're listed.

[@dutchbeef8920]

Right!? Its on the launch pad just need some extra money you know

[@majorramsey3k]

Silly Bitchell?

[@MrERLoner]

Lol. With world record high scores built in

[@ZafVirex]

As an educator, I've worked with students on their studies for about 20 yrs. Limitations of a study are important. Covering such a large timeframe from the 60s to the 2000s, you can't expect the study to be exhaustive about one particular period. Not the point or intent of the study. That would and could be a separate study unto itself. Most studies are not meant to be comprehensive. That's why sample sizes that can reasonably be worked with are chosen. A good study raises new questions that in the future other researchers can follow up on like Pat's inquiry about 70s games availability. However, the study considered popularity as well, and there is more popularity for 80s-2000s retro games than the 60s and 70s, so it makes sense for the study to focus more on those periods. These limitations and the reasoning for them are usually outlined in the introduction of any study. Time and resources too limits how much of any one period can be covered within reason. It's not for lack of diligence on the part of the researcher.

[@RetroSho]

Interesting topic. I agree with Ian more so, but I understand where Pat is coming from. I personally don't think future generations will care nearly as much about the physical media as we do. They'll be just fine with some form of accurate emulation and some text/research materials they can read and study. It's very possible only 5% or less of people who will actually go after this stuff after doing research in the future. What Gaming Historian, Video Game History Foundation and others are doing is so much more important than the media itself anyways. These are videos and efforts that set the context for when these games were enjoyed -- something that is slowly being eroded and lost over time. Ian is right about what he's saying. These game companies need to be on board with preserving their stuff. That's the first step on the bridge, and until then it's just various people around the globe doing their own separate efforts.

[@monopoman]

IT's basically like claiming that every author from 100 years ago has to have relevance in the year 2023 to kids born 6 years ago. That is not how things work, sure big name authors from that era still get recognition but hundreds were lost to time.

[@RetroSho]

@@monopoman Yes, this is exactly it. Kids WILL NOT care about random authors from 100 years ago. Kids WILL remember a J.R.R Tolkien or a William Shakespeare due to how prominent their works were. This is the narrow lens by which we remember history... only "the greats". It's just how we work as humans. However, we live in a time NOW where we can go a step further and record our current history in high quality video, audio & digital format, something people didn't have 50 or 100 years ago. Games can also live on via various emulation efforts.

[@namelessjedi2242]

You’re right, the context should be preserved, too. It’s so important to a proper understanding.

[@squidracerX]

Id say - I agree they wont care about the physical media - but Pat is correct that that completely changes the experience as well. Ill go a step farther -- kids wont care about these games at all! Zero. ....05% maybe. Give them emulation access or not. Not only is my 7 and and 15 year old niece and nephew completely not interested in "retro games". I got them Switch Online to get access to the old libraries and she reported they played about 15 minutes and dont need it again. But I picked up the Atari 50th - boy it was a great documentary, id buy another about another company -- but i played about 30 seconds of each game. Some I have nostalgia for, some i never saw. but i didn't want to go back and I'm a 42 year old with a large bookshelf of old games (which I dont touch). Kids will not want NES games in 20 years. Period. No debate. You do say you see it as" 5% doing research and study" and I think thats correct, but thats not what these two are saying. They are equating 100% availability to some sort of gaming renascence or revival. So historical preservation like the Atari 50th -- 100% awesome. Preservation is one thing. Just making the games be around so that kids will love them again in 20 years, meh, I dont see it.

[@Color-Theory]

When discussing the future of video games as historical archives, I expect emulators and rom dumps to be the main source of information and interaction. Although I agree with Pat that the experience of playing games on their original consoles and displays is extremely valuable from an education perspective, I imagine that level of interaction will be designated to museums. For example, I can go to wikipedia and listen to the recording of a song from 1888 on a phonographic cylinder, but the opportunity to hear that music on the actual media is almost non-existent. I'm sure something is lost in translation between the physical medium and my laptop speakers, but it's certainly close enough. Thanks for your thoughts!

[@atariboy9084]

The video game industry wanted to turn video games into fast food and never care about physical gaming and wanted to sell the next game in there menu. To this day the video game industry never call video games as "ART" as they rather wanted you to see them as disposable gaming.

[@jwt4810]

Best way to accomplish availability of classic games is to create a fee structure to a centrally accessed library of games (similar to how the music industry does with it's copy righted material) Owners of said copyright software/games would get royalties based on downloads or hours played or some type of metric that could be setup. Done everyone's happy.

[@opaljk4835]

Didn’t you just describe steam?

[@TBustah]

I don’t know how realistic getting libraries and universities involved is (especially when the former barely still exists), but yes, getting future generations interested is important. I’m into slot cars, and I’m actively trying to get my cousins’ kids interested. I bring a small 1/64 track with me to any get-together we have with them, and I want to eventually get them their own sets and take them to a commercial track in the area when they’re a little older.

[@krisfrederick5001]

That's literally impossible. I still have all of mine. And every video game becomes older and more retro to every kid of every generation by the day. Vinyl came back with a vengeance.

[@LittleBigKid707b]

Yes, but most kids are buying digital which as you said will eventually become retro. Meaning, years from now those same people that were kids are not going to look for "the physicals" of what they grew up with in 2023. They will be finding a computer to stream or download them of whatever else.

[@BeyondDaX]

Just because one person has all their retro games does not mean everyone else will in the future or now in some cases.

[@MikeRox83]

​@LittleBigKid707b but this is about the games being available in any form. So it actually includes digital already.

[@opaljk4835]

I feel like retro is a word that needs to be adjusted in our lexicon, because it’s imprecise and misused.

[@dcshoes841]

Vinyl might have. But many other media formats are still basically dead. 8-track? Laserdisc? Minidisc? Betamax? VHS? The list goes on and on.

[@superbn0va]

Basically it’s all the lesser known games that will become rare to obtain in the future. Games that don’t get a re-release and are slept on..

[@willielogan4811]

Also licensed games. Not all of those are loved either.

[@DiceRobo]

I also see inferior ports being more rare for a re-release. Why play the gameboy version of Pac-man when you can play the arcade version on virtually any modern system.

[@willielogan4811]

@@DiceRobo Totally. Even good games like Link's Awakening. Why play the original GB release when you can just as easy play the color or Switch remake.

[@DW3010]

I don’t think this will ever happen. There’s going to be multiple museums I think one day about this stuff. But even now, I know very few kids who are interested in playing the original super Mario brothers, or Zelda on Nintendo. I talked with somebody last week about this, and they’re in their 40s just like me, and they said they even think the original Zelda sucks now. Which blew my mind.

[@Aeonterbor]

Not just that but there's tons of middle of the road games that most folks won't care about even collecting just to stick on a shelf, like the countless yearly sports games or videogames based on board game and other pre-existing properties. What kid nowadays is going to seek out the NES version of Othello?

[@LuigiTheMetal64]

What is keeping old video games alive is people not dealing with digital video games being censored and/or removed at any time.

[@opa-age]

Even in Japan, you can hardly find any good retro used games anymore.

[@kennethd4958]

You have to hand it to all the emulation enthusiasts… if it wasn’t for our obsession to have and rip and categorize every game possible.. a lot of these games really WOULD be lost to time. So no matter what your stance is on ROMs/ISOs etc… they really are the reason some games haven’t been completely forgotten and why we might actually be able to have some sort of “official” game library going forward…

[@theomacer3094]

Let me check my Retroarch folder. ...Yup, it's all still there.

[@SpeccyHorace]

Haha yep

[@SchizoMelody]

99.9% of books and comics ever published are not in print today. Same thing with music, that's just the way it goes

[@paprikastaude]

I never liked illegal ROMs as a preservation measure. There's a reason piracy dropped once Netflix became a thing. People actually don't wanna do the work of downloading pirated copies. Few people would choose to look up how to boot up a Dolphin emulator properly vs. buying/streaming retro games from a good official service.

[@Claredeth]

Like vinyls, there will always be a market for physical, retro video games. To some, playing on original hardware is the only/best way to go about doing it. To everyone else, these games definitely need to be preserved in an online system where games can be played legally on emulator or maybe downlaoded to some future FPGA console that runs all retro games. Sure, libraries could rent out old consoles and physical games but would require quite a bit of upkeep and knowledge of how to fix those systems if they break. Heck, I don't even know if I'll bother to learn how to fix my old systems and CRT when they eventually die. Old Movies, music, and books are all readily available for anyone to download/stream and consume on most devices...it's time for old games to join them in a legal capacity.

[@jarvindriftwood]

I'd like to see them take into account the licensing of games. Are we going to see an official release available still of ET (Atari), Fester's Quest (NES) or Pagemaster (SNES)? No. The game has to be good and the franchise popular enough to cover the costs of relicensing like with XMen and Simpson on XBox/PS3, which were removed within like 3 years. Gameboy through GBA encompasses A LOT of those games from Nickelodeon to Disney to Hot Wheels, etc.

[@garygorrent9917]

If a company does not make its game available in any format 10 years after release, it should be legal to download and play a ROM of it (obviously illegal to sell).

[@NightDragon2383]

Thankfully I can always don my Captain Jack Sparrow costume from Party City and sail the Shady Seas any time I want to play some of these "retro" games 😁

[@midimusicforever]

If it's not available, then piracy is legimate.

[@shambleslongplay3566]

If i was a lawyer and you walked in with that argument. i would say.. I can prove that atari has more % available than this document shows, so the whole document is irrelivant and un trustworthy. I dont need to prove the rest of it is false, i have shown enough of it is false to throw it out. so i agree with pat. either get better more accurate data or dont put it in the results. If you just chose 1 random atari game and say "0%" available. even i could destroy the validity of your whole document just because of that. Saying "well sure its not 0% but it wont change the pont the document is making" is just bias, I understand the stance, but saying 0% of these games are available when its just a lie makes the whole document a lie.

[@chaosdimension6433]

I heard the report of 87% of games could be an attempt to create market panic and INCREASE the price of retro videogames , and I tend to agree, this report has been shown in pretty much EVERY retro videogame website or fan community, why?? if you are retro you knew this already, this is not news at all but it's being blown out of proportion as an attempt to increase FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt) and make prices go up, when I saw this report my eyebrow raised the same way as when we saw the news of Super Mario 64 auctioned for like 1.5 million dollars.

[@CrowsSalvation]

I could totally see that. Rush now to get your stuff graded guys! Pfft suckas.

[@skins4thewin]

Could also be lack of demand... they aren't selling as well as they were due to those high asking prices & waning interest in old physical media. More & more ppl are emulating or using FPGA solutions these days. Collecting retro games is slowly becoming more niche again. Prices are going to slowly drop due to this imo.

[@CrowsSalvation]

@@skins4thewin Wish they would. I been to a few video game cons and they were both packed. So the demand is there. Definitely a generational thing though. I was going for turbografx and sega cd stuff. Everyone else seemed locked on to gamecube and around that time period.

[@rcLdrcH]

I totally agree and only have held on to my full collections of my Dreamcast and Ps1 games and if I could sell a valuable game that Iccan play elsewhere or emulate I definitely would sell it for the right price nowadays

[@Clay3613]

What are you babbling about? You're making a flawed report into a conspiracy as if the VGHF is in cahoots with Heritage.

[@toaker]

Games don’t get enough respect to break into acedemia. Most people still see them as a waste of time and lower form of entertainment than say music or film. A damn shame for sure.

[@c64konami96]

I collect mainly for Commodore 64. You need the instructions for the games to have the best experience. Looking for a sealed copy of Barbie for Commodore 644.

[@creekandseminole]

This is why I love collecting for the Switch. There are many classic game collections available in multiple genres. They're could be way more of course, but what's out right now is really good

[@BadfingerFan]

Learn more about media preservation by studying the huge cultural loss that occurred in 2008 Universal Viventi fire. About 500,000 master tapes burned. Complete artist master tape music catalogs completely obliterated. At the time, news reports lied by stating the the tapes were backup copies of television shows. Nothing could be further from the truth. Finally the New York Times released the story. Burned were most Chess labels master tapes like Howlin' Wolf, Chuck Berry, Muddy Waters, etc. Neil Diamond, Carpenters, etc. lost their entire master tape catalog. Thank you, Universal Music and Vivendi--You bastards. I personally suspect that the fire was set to collect insurance durng a time when the entire economy of the United States was crashing. In fact, insurance money was collected. That must have come in pretty handy.

[@danbauer3669]

Marvel comics doesn't even own a copy of every book that they've published. They used to, then there was an office fire, and now they don't.

[@SuperIcarusman]

The first thing would be to determine if said generations consider "retro games" to even be relevant or worth keeping around..It's of niche interest as it is, and will probably be niche years to come, I don't think they'll ever grow in interest.

[@johnmickey5017]

This is why the industry whining about research libraries is so fake. There will be future generations of researchers that this access matters to - the general population will have other diversions.

[@NostalgiaForever100]

Video games are part of the story! They will live as long as our generation is alive!

[@mumfnah]

Spunds somewhat relevant to what was being discussed at the end here about libraries.... Though not a Library, but The Scoence Museum here in London, which has in past years ran/hosted Power Up exhibition for a few days. Now, they're keeping that as a permanent thing. And only around £15 or something for a yearly pass so can go and play/educate as often as like. That may serve as a nice space to be like a museum of retro gaming. They have the old micro computers and consoles through the generations, all which have games to play on too. Being such a central venue too is good. Don't know the numbers but sure many schools take their clases on visits there, amd many many tourists and locals visit as an attraction

[@Christophersanchez1326]

Basically there both ranting over what blockbuster, Hastings and mom- pop Movie -Game rental stores were, but as a connection to a library 😃 free rental.

[@leeartlee915]

What I would love to have seen is this data compared to something, like, television shows or fictional novels.

[@sirhcman]

Are Retro Video Games Disappearing? The answer is no.

[@The64Whore]

Love hearing from my favorite pod hosts! Pat and Ian can make basically all topics interesting and I feel I learn something

[@joeschmoe4698]

Nintendo should've never closed the virtual console store, I wish they reopened it back up for the wii, wii u, 3ds, and switch and if they were clever pc as well. They're deluded if they think everyone will jump on their subscription bandwagon, I rather pirate than subscribe.

[@virtualturboprincessrescuermk3]

The bad games need to be preserved too. If we forget the bad games, we end up forgetting what we learned and making more of them.

[@bryanjensen2614]

No, they reason they don't want congress involved is to overcharge for video games that aren't worth the price to play again, hence why people download the ROMs and play then on emulators. Nintendo Eshop we're talking to you.

[@Jeissecastillo]

I think there will be kids that are curious about older games. Take my son for example… he has shown interest in experiencing games like sonic adventure 1 and 2, the old Mario games, punch out, donkey Kong (the nes version of the arcade game), and many more. And has went on to beat a lot of those games too. But, that’s not going to be every child or generation that comes after us. Most, aren’t going to care. My son is going to be a small exception. So while, I love the idea of trying to preserve our games, we may be doing all of this work for nothing because the next gen may think we wasted our time doing so. But to be clear, my son has been experiencing these games thru other means, not directly thru the original console. NES games on switch as an example. Or sonic adventure games on Xbox series x. So I agree with Ian on this one. I’ve tried to get him to play these games on older hardware and the controllers just don’t click for him like the modern ones do

[@callak_9974]

Eventually all these consoles won't work anymore, and there will be no spare parts either. But preserving the entire library in digital form that is easily accessible will be important. Emulators can be created and refined to run how the original hardware does. Can always create a new control input that feels exactly how it would have otherwise. But there's still games lost to history, same as books. Who knows how many games for DOS or other older computer systems aren't available, the small games created by 1 person and perhaps distributed locally. But there will always be those 1 out of a 1000, or 10,000, or even 1,000,000 whose interest are peaked with something historical and wish to experience it as best they can, and for those they need to be able to access the archive that hopefully will be created.

[@MylstarElectronics]

I thought I was like somewhere are gone vanished from the ancient past of memories, which is mostly became nostalgia and the vintage stuff or so, but I'm guessing it's not happening there for unknown interest themselves as a kid, because it's always wayback in the past ago until starting says “Blast from the past in retro!”; Unless, though, I'm unsure if it's playing poorly as a teenager that ended up became all growth over and all that as well, so this was been whatsoever…

[@JamesLewis2]

I should point out that even a 5% sample percentage is huge, at least compared to public-opinion polling: At that level, it makes sense to use a "finite-population correction" for statistical results, indicating that they're more precise than the usual methods (based solely on sample size) would indicate. Still, it would be better if the half-decadal subgroups had larger samples, or at least if we knew how their sizes compared to the population sizes for those subgroups.

[@SinistarsHunger]

I understand Pat's frustration. Growing up in the Bay Area, I have been obsessed with music my whole life, and this area was an absolute Mecca for Metal, Punk, and Hip-Hop in the 80's and 90's. It's hard for me to fully except how many younger people growing up here, today couldn't care less about that.

[@trailersic]

But that's not what this is about, it's not about making people interested it's making sure they are available for people who ARE interested.

[@rottenapple9855]

@@trailersic Hardcore is pretty big in the Bay area right now. A lot of bands embracing the old sounds and creating a lot of buzz again

[@AthiestDing]

Emulating Mario cart 64 on a phone is very different to playing 4player with friends on origional hardware. You at least need that 4player co-op experience to truly appreciate that game. Realising this got me into colecting origional hardware and experiencing the games in the way they were origionally played with the quirks of early gaming.

[@shenanitims4006]

True. But that’s the nature of “experiences” to begin with. I’m sure there might be a theater somewhere playing silent movies silently with an organ player playing along with the projected film (in fact, I believe the Tampa Theater might do that on occasion). And that’s cool, just I’d argue a greater proportion of the Earth’s resources should be put toward preserving the Earth itself and inhabitants (i.e. animals) before things like video games even enter the picture. That’s literally the piece about being “human” that many don’t grasp. We all die. We decay, we fade away. It’s literally a law of the universe - what we consider reality itself is expanding outside itself right now, and will someday contract taking literally everything with it. Which is essentially the theory held about reality and how it’s composed. If we’re going to argue that every original piece of hardware should be preserved, along with every component to such said hardware, you’re arguing for things outside reality. You have “Athiest” in your handle. Even the Gods die.

[@IrrationalNick]

Pat as a librarian, I wholeheartedly agree. Although we are in the infancy of this idea. School budgets and people who make those decisions are not there yet.

[@silverywingsagain]

I think a what lot of "game collectors" and speculators are missing is that no medium is forever. Magnetic media gets hit by cosmic rays and degrades. Optical discs oxidize and delaminate over time. Cartridge EEPROMS are subject to metal dispersion and electromigration and will cease to function over time. The only way to preserve gaming history is to continuously back up and emulate. Centralizing this function is literally putting all the eggs in one basket. The MAME team was right all those years ago. Collecting and archiving does nothing to help.

[@badbusiness2113]

Exactly. If preservation is the true intention, the method is multiple servers across multiple continents (to protect from nature and politics).

[@Burrill25]

Miss you guys. Always great to see.

[@jonny5alive123]

Really wish Ian hadn't have kept cutting off Pat. Pat is right that there is no point in our generation preserving these games if the next generation doesn't ever experience or care about them and just throws them all out in 20-30 years after we're dead. Preserving them in a handful of museums where researchers can play them for studies isn't enough.

[@Polyvinci]

Education is important. Classic games are still good games. If people know about them and give them a try, they will care.

[@BeyondDaX]

@@Polyvinci The important question, how many will care? Especially with this tik tok generation and so on.

[@koloth5139]

You go about it the same way you go about movie history. Frankly most people don't give a flip about old movies. Nothing wrong with that. But then you have film students, and one of the courses you take is film history. You watch and discuss old movies that most people have never even heard of. I very much doubt many people care about Gone with the Wind, Nosferatu, Sound of Music, or Wizard of Oz these days. And those are some of the more popular old movies. You would have the same thing for programming or game development courses. One of the requirements would be a game history course. Because these are the people who should know about gaming history. But the average person really isn't going to care. The average gamer just wanting to play something fun isn't going to care about a 90-year-old game at some point in the future. But someone who is into media history will be interested and those are the people you teach to.

[@STP.83]

I am age 39 now and here in Germany my younger working colleagues don't even know what a Mega Drive/Genesis is and barely know the Super Nintendo exists. In my last Thailand holiday I tried to talk with some Playstation 4 gamers about SEGA, but they didn't even know SEGA ever made consoles.

[@CallousCoder]

What I think should happen is that when a console is no longer supported/manufactured that all the rights of those titles on those console are relinquished. And then it’s legal to rip and store their contents and hobbiests like ourselves will do that. Companies go bankrupt go out of business etc so they won’t be able to archive their titles.

[@pongopeter3089]

Most Retro Games are not re-released on current generation consoles because a handful of those games are based off of movies, TV shows and other types of media, which need licensing fees from their copyright owners, plus a high number of those Retro Games that are definitely not worth playing today.

[@jupreindeer]

I can definitely see 'classic' games on discs vanishing. But... cartridges? Probably vanishing into attics and private collections around the Earth. Now, time to hit play on the video...

[@rgxwrestlingmedia]

If I understand this right, it's really all about what Norm can legally obtain and experience to make his videos?

[@williams6334]

Pat never misses an opportunity to 1up "Limited". I didn't even pick up on it 🤣

[@CitywideJ]

Nintendo constantly closing Eshops like the 3DS and Wii is the perfect example why emulation and ROM sharing should be legal. I have two 3DS systems that have downloaded content but are nearing eol, but theres no sure fire way to transfer the content (without hacks). Oh and i cannot redownload content i bought because the age old "you buy a license" scam.

[@thekidfromiowa]

Thankfully me and my brother bought lots of NES and SNES games in the early 2000s when they were dirt cheap. Nothing like being in 5th grade and taking a trip to Funcoland.

[@DiceRobo]

I agree with Pat, the random size screws the results for the 70's a pretty large amount in my opinion.

[@CoreDreamStudios]

End of the story is, publishers or developers need to allow their games to be buyable. In the mean time, I rely on ROMS/ISOs for games I can't get or don't want to spend $1,400 on on ebay.

[@nathanrussell2158]

Games should go into public domain after so many years

[@drinksanddice9528]

The literature people are the ones focusing on this stuff. Stematic textual study requires original materials and that's our specialty (Literature folks). Universities are already curating this stuff behind the scenes and a shield of fair use.

[@bororidley4769]

Don't forget about DOS 1.0 - 6.22 & Windows 1.0 - 3.1 Games, Also Apple lle & MAC games.

[@checkeredslime9478]

Pat's thoughts on the study seemed kind of like naval gazing. Like, yeah that's a good point, but I don't know that it needed to be insisted upon throughout the length of the conversation.

[@CinemaStormz]

Awesome pod cast you guys keep up the good work!

[@TheSampleSlayer]

Commodore Amiga has the Amiga Forever project; it's essentially an emulation system built on UAE but it's 100% legal as Cloanto owns the rights to bios files; honestly I think companies like Sony and Nintendo should create their own emulation systems or even digital platforms think of Steam where you purchase the game and its always in your collection regardless of what system you've upgraded to. They could preserve their retro titles and profit well from it! Also I don't think it would necessarily hurt their sales of releases on current generation systems and even use their those emulators as a licence to certain titles on newer systems which would be a selling point when upgradingto a current generation console.

[@brendanroberts1310]

So as we move to a digital only games future, will retro games be more collectible or less?

[@LittleBigKid707b]

It's all relative to age. People in their 30 and 40s that are retro gamers like myself, will continue to enjoy their retro physicals. However, the vast majority of people in their 20s and younger couldn't care less for this stuff. It's just people in our age group. Once we stop and/or eventually pass on, nobody is going to care about this stuff. Gramophones were very collectible in the 50s and 60's. Selling for a lot of money. Now they go for pennies on the dollar.

[@opaljk4835]

Eventually more and then eventually less

[@Clay3613]

Streaming is failing major studios right now, they would've loved to have kept selling retailers and consumers films individually like the old days. Physical media is making a huge comeback in the music market right now.

[@opaljk4835]

@@Clay3613 as it has for the last 10 years. But it’s nowhere near what it once was.

[@injunjoe8967]

A lot of shovelware though how many copies of Sonic Blast do you need? There is an overglut of crap labeled as retro; endless ports; a lot of it ties up the retro marketplace a lot of good games get overlooked; still waiting for Bionic Commando for Xbox360 to be playable on something besides my old 360 which cannot play games as the disc drive don't work & you couldn't switch them out when they red ringed.

[@dabearcub]

Pat going the the classic short guy route by showing off the guns lol

[@shorterrecording]

NES games need to be available to kids otherwise they won’t give a shit about Pat‘s libraries.

[@nanoblack366]

these numbers can only go lower. preserve them

[@dangrise6182]

Pat is such a purest. He seems genuinely distressed that someone in the 22nd century won't be able to play a Nintendo game on actual hardware complete with a CRT. I think most of us will be content if the digital versions of the games make it that far in the future. It was funny to hear him going on a tirade to reform the whole library system. Like a lot of people I enjoy learning about history, but I don’t see the necessity of getting my hands on physical implements from a bygone era like a cotton ginny, telegraph or butter churn.

[@Wexter0083]

He has a point though. There needs to be technology preservation too as well. There are groups that show vintage film on original projectors for a reason and in some cases a cleaner picture shows imperfections that the original "artist/developer" hit though the trickery of the technology at the time. I think both sides are very correct, but arguing pass each other to a degree.

[@dangrise6182]

@@Wexter0083 Some of the technology will be preserved by those passionate enough to do so. It's not reasonable to think that our descendants in the next century can walk into libraries across America and play Ladybug on actual Coleco Vision hardware. It's not realizable so rather than go pie in the sky why not tackle a more realistic objective like preserving the games themselves. That was the point I was trying to make.

[@Wexter0083]

@@dangrise6182 That makes sense. I was thinking more of cases like film classes where they do actually show the original tools as a part of education. Though, I do agree expecting some of this hardware to be functional even 50 years from now is a bit... umm... foolhardy.

[@dangrise6182]

@@Wexter0083 Indeed.

[@itzdm0r3]

How can we get to the point of games being in libraries if the suits at the top still see them as nothing more than "toys".

[@leeartlee915]

All I know is this: if you wanna play a lot of older games, piracy is quickly becoming the ONLY option.

[@Rando1975]

Sad but true.

[@CoreDreamStudios]

Technically it's no longer piracy if the IP/Software is abandonware.

[@leeartlee915]

@@CoreDreamStudios If it’s truly abandonware, yes, that’s true. But a lot of the software still has rights holders. They just don’t make it commercially available.

[@guy4835]

Imagine if 87 percent of shows, movies or songs were unavailable 🤯

[@RetroDoc79]

To me, this argument is so messed up because I know I can not find all the old school games I would like to play for sale. We definitely need a digital archive emulators keep those old games alive. Oh, and how about the Sega Master system? I can buy Alf, Double Dragoon, or Cloud Master one of my favors as a kid, by the way. Great discussion guys keep up the great work, and Pat, I loved your NES book ever. I think of doing one for the Sega Master system or the Sega Genesis?

[@GodfathersGodfathernet]

Ian just looks furious 😂

[@lazydgsf7429]

I think talking about it is good; working on preservation is good; but the way gamers act like these are historical treasures for the ages, or less appreciated or preserved as opposed to any other medium, is embarrassing. A balance is struck and we get reasonable preservation. The sense of entitlement is a bit too much though. Games are not historical treasures that should be free online , or have tax payer dollars archiving a game without real merit. It’s hubris. And there are a number of games I wish I could find and can’t. It’s not some sort of crime of neglect media from 30 years ago isn’t just available.

[@Walt_Xander94]

Disappearing? Must mean there's just no digirak way to get these games. Granted, cartridges get outright destroyed, but the majority that dont, still work. Theyre just tough to find. Hell, GC & PS2 games are becoming rare. I recently looked up that Metabots GC game because I used to own that. But it goes for $100+ now. So, I cant buy that one again, unless I bump into it at a flea market.

[@BeyondDaX]

DIgital way? For most but not for every old game there is. How can you make a emulator if you can't get the original game itself? That's the question right here.

[@havabighed]

Rejoice... if they arent commercially available, that means it is legal to pirate them(seriously, read the DMCA)

[@marccaselle8108]

In a perfect world games from the 70s through mid 2000s would available to buy in physical form at stores that arent just ebay

[@mickael486]

There's not too many video game commentator/podcasts personalities that I like on KZbin apart from Ian & Pat. ..Never miss an episode. (unless they're talking about wrestling) 😁

[@STP.83]

The first choice of kids in 2023 are tablets and smartphones, and they don't care which consoles exists before PS5, Switch and Xbox Series. Only we who grew up with it still care. But it don't make it less important to educate kids about gaming history.

[@majorramsey3k]

They're not going to go for the library model after years and years of hating on the used games market. They won't give an inch unless forced to do so.

[@jarmanolivares]

I will go to bed later, to watch this!!! 😂 Keep on trying to put it out. THX

[@OzymandiasWasRight]

Video game preservation is a big deal to me. It's partly why I'm so pro emulation. It may not be perfect but the reality is one way or another the originals don't last forever. In some cases it's literally the only way to know a game existed.

[@voidsabre_]

Another riveting episode of "Pat and Ian argue vehemently over something they 100% agree on" Keep up the good work boys

[@Skorpio420]

For as much history/joy/whatever the video game history has given us all, they sure don't seem interested in preserving their games. But don't you dare download/share/use their ROMs!

[@wewyllenium]

How come people cant travel back to the moon?

[@markrotondella4689]

It's weird that video games is still viewed as an "other media" by education and not covered rather what it is - the biggest media. It should be taught in the say way literature, music and film are taught. You can teach so much from it as well - programming, hardware, story telling, graphic design.....