Patton in Sicily

[@colinellis5243]

Another great presentation! Especially since Kevin had to step in at short notice! Also Kevin well done matching Woody drink for drink in Bayeux! They should award yanks a medal for doing that!

[@robcrane3512]

Thanks for putting on the show at short notice. I'm now going through Andrew Cunningham's autobiography to see if he gives any clues about lack of naval intervention in the Straits of Messina but have been distracted by a quote he attributes to Patton re: how far forward he was during the German counterattack at Gela: "Admiral, I was no longer in command of an army, but merely a reconnaissance unit." 😅

[@bruceday6799]

If you want to raise some hackles just mention Patton. I can't beleive this was a last second fill-in. Well done all around to you both!

[@WW2TV]

You're welcome, it was a fun show

[@davidk7324]

Thank you Kevin for rushing to the breach. I very much enjoy your approach to sharing your knowledge.

[@thegreatdominion949]

If people are interested in attempts at naval interdiction of the Strait of Messina, I recommend they have a look at the book entitled "Flag 4: The Battle of Coastal Forces in the Mediterranean" by Dudley Pope.

[@WW2TV]

Thanks for the suggestion

[@thegreatdominion949]

@@WW2TV You're welcome.

[@philbosworth3789]

Kevin talking about Patton, what a great combination.

[@WW2TV]

Yep, it doesn't take much to get Kevin talking on this subject lol

[@jburd2436]

Agreed!

[@jeffbraaton4096]

Kevin always gives a great presentation. I enjoy hearing from these younger generation WW2 Historians, seeing their subject with fresh eyes. Keeps us on our toes. Thank Kevin and Paul.

[@WW2TV]

I'm glad you think of us as younger. I'll be 55 next year

[@jeffbraaton4096]

I'll be 65 in a couple of months Paul, so yeah you're a little younger🤣

[@davidlavigne207]

@@WW2TV Just a "whipper snapper" Paul! I've got almost ten years on you mate!

[@orlandofurioso7958]

Great episode.

[@Neaptide184]

Absolutely, completely, hilariously, illuminating….. fun. Great contribution to my evening! Cheers….

[@WW2TV]

Thank you kindly!

[@PeterOConnell-pq6io]

I enjoyed Kevin's effortless (if off the cuff) presentation, especially discussions about Patton's mental state during the 'slappenings': Potential PTSD-like stress outburst vs a temporary bout of 'obsessive personality' disorder, which Kevin effortlessly elaborated on.

[@1089maul]

Woody/Kevin. Fantastic presentation. If I am honest, I was more interested in learning about Patton. Kevin’s presentation was very balanced. I have not doubt he could present a show just Patton’s life. Bob

[@executivedirector7467]

At 9:30 regarding the 'road stealing' incident......this was an excellent example of Alexander's failure to take command of the campaign. 7th Army was, as the video says, making good progress and could have contributed to outflanking the Mt Etna position. By giving that road to British units. not only was the 45th Division delayed, but the entire Army Group effort was subverted. I like to think that if Montgomery had been in command at the Army Group level this kind of chaos would not have occurred.

[@WW2TV]

Good point

[@bobleicht5295]

Dad served in the 11th Arm’d Div, and seldom talked about his experiences. He did say once “We shoveled s*** in Louisiana,” remarkable ‘cuz he never swore. Didn’t know what it meant, but imagine my surprise when we saw ‘Patton’ together, and G. Scott delivered that line in the movie!

[@walterecklund1502]

We’ll done Kevin. Thanks to both of you for an excellent show.

[@jimwatts914]

Howdy folks. 4-star review of Patton in Sicily, slaps and all, by a world-class expert. Learned a lot of facts I knew were distorted by movies and popular media. Thanks Kevin and Woody.

[@patrickgrove2645]

Always enjoyable to hear Kevin talking about Patton

[@morganhale3434]

Thoroughly enjoyable show and why I can never get enough on Patton: if you don't include all the ugly warts, you miss the point that people can do great things while still being a fatally flawed human being like the rest of us. Hollywood heroes who are instagram stars don't exist in reality and we shouldn't worship great military and political figures but study them and learn the correct lessons from both their good and bad behaviors.

[@scottgrimwood8868]

What a fantastic presentation by Kevin! WW2TV always gets the best people to share their expertise.

[@executivedirector7467]

Regarding the Airborne lessons learned for Normandy at 5:13: not only were the planes painted and the jumps scheduled for hours before the landings.... the flight paths of the airborne serials were routed so as to avoid friendly shipping!

[@PurpleCat9794]

I want his hat!

[@davidlavigne207]

Shades of "Willy and Joe" in a foxhole from SGT Bill Mauldin's cartoons?

[@QuayleTBird]

Thank you both for such nuanced and accurate portrayal of GSP. Too often what I see on KZbin is both extremes. And for a a character as wonderfully complex as GSP, I love when the discussion explores all the aspects of his personality. You both succeeded in presenting the whole person.

[@WW2TV]

Thank you, that's always the intention - nuance

[@TheVigilant109]

Brilliant presentation by Kevin as usual. Many thanks

[@gwilymmorgan5115]

Thanks for a typically great presentation, which I missed live. Kevin Hymel has his fair share of malapropisms (I'm pretty sure Patton was considered more of a "martinet" by his troops than a "marionette"), but he's very informative.

[@SamAlley-l9j]

Great show thank you.

[@abrahamoyevaar2226]

Really liking this Sicily theme. Thanks Woody.

[@Anderle52134]

Nice discussion. I liked Kevin's words on the Straight's situation.

[@Thumpalumpacus]

Rabbit hole or no, I was having a cold one anyway, Paul. Another great episode.

[@Bullet-Tooth-Tony-]

Patton's best comparison would be an armoured commander like Richard O Connor or Philip Roberts. Monty's style was a lot different to Patton.

[@executivedirector7467]

Roberts was a great division commander; probably the best British armored division commander of WW2. But Patton operated two levels above that and did it very well. Roberts never had the opportunity to work on that level.

[@OldHickoryAndyJackson]

I had a neighbor in the 1990's that was in Patton's 3rd Army, he had some interesting stories.

[@executivedirector7467]

"Alexander is not a micromanager" That's an understatement! ;)

[@executivedirector7467]

At 6:37, isn't that soldier SGT George Meeks, Patton's orderly?

[@WW2TV]

Not according to Kevin

[@executivedirector7467]

@@WW2TV Elsewhere it is so labeled.

[@WW2TV]

Except he looks nothing like Meeks, who was heavier set and in his 40s

[@fredmauren5301]

Just finished Kevin’s second volume on Patton covering the breakout in France and Battle of the Bulge. Great book. Patton was a master motivator and probably the best Army level strategist in WWII.

[@Titus-as-the-Roman]

Stephen Ambrose : "UN-Daunted Courage"

[@lllordllloyd]

Regarding the point Paul makes at 35:30, he is right. Unfortunately, the same revision has been applied to the First World War on the basis of rather more dubious arguments.

[@executivedirector7467]

Sicily's effect on the Kursk campaign has been grossly exaggerated elsewhere and there's just a bit of that here IMO. Only one panzer division was taken from the Kursk region and sent to Italy - 1st W-SS LSSAH division. They went without any of their equipment, which was left in place in assembly areas in the USSR so other units could take it over. They were issued new equipment for Italy, sat around for a bit and were very shortly brought back to the USSR. Kursk was already a soviet defensive success before this division left, and soon became a soviet operational-level victory during late July-early August.

[@WW2TV]

Look at the figures of German aircraft lost in Sicily and the comparative losses on the Easter Front. Personally I don't think the impact of Husky on the Eastern Front is exaggerated at all. Nothing happens in a vacuum

[@executivedirector7467]

@@WW2TV I think the analysis became a victim of cold war rivalry. The west wanted to take credit for some of the great victory at Kursk. A bit like the argument that the Greek campaign fatally delayed Barbarrossa.

[@lyndoncmp5751]

Excellent discussion, on top of the others in the Sicily series. One thing that hasn't been mentioned though (unless I missed it but I don't think I have) is Bradley's distaste for Patton's parade plans into Messina. Bradley wrote that he : ".. had to hold our troops in the hills instead of pursuing the fleeing Germans in an attempt to get as many as we could. The British nearly beat him into Messina because of that...his parade plans into Messina sickened me and soured me on Patton. We learned how not to behave from Patton's Seventh Army" This was allegedly because although a patrol entered the city, Patton gave the order that no formed units were to go into Messina until he could make triumphal entry according to Monty and Patton, Two Paths To Victory by Michael Reynolds.

[@markgarrett3647]

It's no wonder Brad's been making too many mistakes in northern and southeastern France.

[@executivedirector7467]

To his credit, Bradley was not a showboater.

[@markgarrett3647]

@@executivedirector7467 That's because he knows he's out of his depth.

[@executivedirector7467]

@@markgarrett3647 LOL. Malarky.

[@markgarrett3647]

@@executivedirector7467 So what's up with Brad trying to use highly inaccurate high altitude bombers for close air support with tragic results but not letting Patton close the Falaise pocket in the end?

[@EnigmaCodeCrusher]

Patton!

[@brucealbert4686]

What's a slap between friends?

[@davidlavigne207]

After all, what father wouldn't discipline his children? Didn't he say that he was trying to restore the man's sense of honor as a man?

[@brucealbert4686]

​@@davidlavigne207Plus in the scheme of things it pales against episodes like the siege of Leningrad.

[@markgarrett3647]

And for that Ike hamstrunged his best General and appointed the guy was supposed to be his subordinate that was out of his depth and lengthened the war and of course the casualties.

[@Bullet-Tooth-Tony-]

@@markgarrett3647 If there's one thing that both Patton and Monty agreed on is that Ikes Broadfront was a totally useless strategy.

[@youngprojects]

The Patton expert seems to have confused the name of the second soldier slapped by Patton, Paul G. Bennett, who served in the field artillery of the Ist I.D. and not the 45th. He seems to be confusing Paul G. with a Paul A., a sgt in the 180th infantry regiment who would be KIA. Paul G. would go on to serve in the Korean War and rise to the rank of Sgt first class. So much for Patton.

[@WW2TV]

Mistakes happen in live shows

[@mjinnh2112]

Rats, I wish I had seen this live to ask about Patton and the Bonus Army.

[@Lance2023]

Patton perhaps not orchestrating but rather conducting a form of jazz blitzkrieg definitely. Maybe somebody did read Rommel's book to him. I, being an antitank kinda guy, can't imagine tanks breaking through nevermind what tanks intend thence.

[@executivedirector7467]

"A win is a win' . It's fair to wonder whether Sicily was a victory. The points made about the US Army's redemption are very important. But the Germans never imagined they could hold Sicily. Their mission was to impose delay, not to hold it. Holding it was hopeless. Given they were able to evacuate so many men and so much heavy equipment, it's arguable that this was a draw of sorts. In strategic terms it just sucked the allies deeper into the Med and away from the main goal. Truscott was always a snappy and indeed superstitious dresser. He had his "lucky" clothes he wore all the time.

[@billballbuster7186]

Patton's troops were responsible for several massacres of POWs in Sicily, the most infamous being at Biscari by the 45th Infantry Div. The perpetrators successfully gave as their excuse Pattons orders given in the "take no prisoners" speech on the 23 October 1943. Though an all-American enquiry absolved Patton, I wonder if that would have been the case if Nuremberg rules were applied?

[@Lance2023]

Patton is like Mountbatten or Churchill maybe even a title or two. A billionaire who donates his pay to charity. Maybe some more qualified generals who could actually use the pay and prestige. Thousands of soldiers have been summarily for thousands of years but somehow this time it backfired.

[@executivedirector7467]

One difference is that Patton was a skilled professional, unlike Mountbatten.

[@Lance2023]

@@executivedirector7467 just trying to add a facet.

[@markgarrett3647]

People make a lot of hay about Patton's ego but never Ike's vanity for almost firing the guy that he knows personally to be one of the best General he ever had.

[@WW2TV]

Personally, I don't think Ike's vanity had anything to that with decision

[@markgarrett3647]

@@WW2TV To fire a guy so talented as a commander and so experienced at a time when their type are absolutely needed over something trivial takes a lot of ego. It also foreshadowed later how Ike as a politician would attempt to throw Nixon under the bus when he was falsely accused of having a corrupt secret slush fund.

[@WW2TV]

But Patton wasn't needed in April 45 when he was fired. Tje war was pretty much done.

[@markgarrett3647]

@@WW2TV He was after Sicily.

[@WW2TV]

@@markgarrett3647 he wasn't fired after Sicily was he?