Paul, Women's Roles, and Artemis of the Ephesians (w/ Dr. Sandra Glahn)

[@cherylschalk9106]

I think it’s a better idea to understand the role of St Augustine in the light of his Tradition, the Catholic Church. He was a Bishop in Hippo of Africa. You are not reading it in context. The Church has raised women to Doctors of the a church and has a long tradition of women being lifted up.

[@tabletalkwithyvettegallinar]

What a great segment. Glad I found your channel.

[@GospelSimplicity]

Glad you enjoy it!

[@zekdom]

While the cult of Artemis is interesting, I don’t know if it could explain 1 Timothy 2. When Paul is discussing law, we have Paul tell us the context - circumcision. (We also see “whole law” in Galatians 3.) Point being: if Paul’s concern was the cult of Artemis, where is the mention of Artemis? We don’t even see a mention of false gods in the context of 1 Timothy 2. Instead, Paul’s reason is Adam and Eve. Combined with the totality of church history, I think we all know what Paul’s answer is: men are the head of women.

[@Particularly_John_Gill]

It doesn't at all. Watch the section on the cult of Artemis from Mike Winger's latest video on women in ministry. Long video over 12 hours, but the section on Artemis is probably an hour. The scholarship on this topic is really really bad unfortunately.

[@portraits_of_bliss]

@@Particularly_John_GillIt's actually a three hour section, but absolutely worth it. His whole series is probably the best resource on the topic to this day.

[@Particularly_John_Gill]

@@portraits_of_bliss Yeah I was listening on 1.5x speed and didn’t even realize it was that long 😂

[@zachsmith8916]

⁠@@Particularly_John_GillYeah the Artemis stuff really doesn’t work from a historical perspective.

[@davidvartanian]

Headship was an argument used to make sure male heads remained uncovered and female heads remained covered in the Corinthians church. Mutual submission, not headship, was the argument used in the same letter to talk about prayer and sex in marriage. Also, more importantly, headship is not found in the Creation account. The purpose of male/female relationships is oneness, not subordination, just like in the Trinity. The Father and the Son have different roles but are one. They also have the same functions/power, because they are one. Same with men and women. Men are physically stronger, and women can bear children. That practically and generally works out to creating different roles in society. But men and women are also the same emotionally, intellectually, and spiritually, which means they are both capable of being used by the Spirit to preach, teach, share wisdom. Even the Orthodox, who are holding on to medieval ecclesial structures, have women teachers, and they are given platforms to teach to mix audiences in “authoritative” ways. This isn’t the 1950s; no one is demeaned and offended by hearing a qualified woman speak on God’s word.

[@zachsmith8916]

Mike Winger was just talking about this the other day. He brought out some points that the Artemisinin cult theory doesn’t really work historically. You should have Douglas Moo on to talk about this.

[@GospelSimplicity]

I'd love to chat with Douglas Moo. His Romans commentary was required reading during my undergrad Romans course

[@cirdan4170]

Not really a surprise, that there's considerable overlap between Mike Winger's and Gospel Simplicities' communities. Lovely ;)

[@Bible33AD]

​@@GospelSimplicityDoug Moo once wrote women are more decieved- his interpretation of Genesis 3. So God made then that way. Thats the logical outworking of his belief. He was NIV translation committee chair 😮. He retracted it later on. Good for him. But what else might he be wrong about- God's daughters in ministry?

[@dandeliontea7]

No offence to Winger but I would rather listen to an actual scholar on the subject instead of a pastor who is usually driven by confirmation bias.

[@tracyallen2738]

Thank you Dr. for your discourse. Woman struggling to find a meaningful purpose within the Orthodox Church (very patriarchal though beautiful limiting for a woman).

[@meadeadams]

“The historical claims for the inferiority of women” Different roles does not mean inferiority

[@FaithLifeChristianMinistries]

Came across your channel. Great episode!

[@JW_______]

I can't help but feel like she avoided the crux of the question all throughout this interview. Should women be able to be in official positions of leadership over men in the church? If so, how do you reconcile that position with 1 Timothy 2? Also - "Women shall be saved through childbearing" means womanhood, nott individual women. We're all saved by grace through faith in Christ.

[@r.a.panimefan2109]

The thing is she honestly didn't have to The women learning in quietness Think of this if you went into a area where women weren't expected to learn you would correct them Also in other places pual told both women and men to be quiet. 😅 See the whole I do not permit women to have authority part This also comes down to ephesus. The artemis cult taught that men were born second 1st were women and that men were inferior. So if these women were trying to take power. The greeknword for authority. Is authentian. Outside of the bible it doesn't mean general authority or teaching. But to take what isn't yours to usurp.. Think a coup de ta. It doesn't work besides that cuase phoebe was a deacon. Junia would carry letters from pual. There's Anna. And many more.

[@F2222m]

This is all you need to know, straight from the Bible: “I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.” -1 Timothy 2:12

[@JesusRodriguez-gu1wv]

That's why when you go to the doctor and it's a woman, and she tells you to do something you day woman I am a man! You are a teacher in a school and your boss the principal is a woman, you say women who are you to tell me what to do?

[@cirdan4170]

@@JesusRodriguez-gu1wv The answer is context: Paul us discussing church service here, not any form of interaction. The bible speaks to these other aspects (e.g. Deborah as proof of the lawfulness of female political leaders). If you want some more context and a real in depth examination of the passage, especially under the claim of the Artemis cult, here's a 11h video for you :P kzbin.info/www/bejne/faevooWmfKiUr6M

[@JesusRodriguez-gu1wv]

@@cirdan4170 thank you for your kind and helpful response

[@moodydolly]

Well, I'm glad you said that, because Paul said "I" do not allow a woman to teach..." and not "God doesn't allow..." and that, in my book, is a big difference, first of all. (and in at least another passage Paul differenciate his instruction from Jesus's teaching in 1 Cor 7:12) Second, what happened to "interpret a passage of scripture using the whole of the Bible" instead of grabbing verses here or there?? Third, does that mean that a woman doesn't have authority over her son(s) when they're minors, she can't teach them anything??

[@cirdan4170]

@@moodydolly Hey, personally I think that's a really problematic take. I don't know about you, but I believe the whole of scripture is inspired by the Holy Spirit, so it really doesn't make a difference whether Jesus (aka. The Lord) or Paul in the inspired letters commands/permits something. It's in the end the Holy Spirit (aka God/The Lord) who is doing that. And if you take the whole of scripture, you end up exactly in this place, that Paul sees a different role for women in the church. Take 1. Corinthians, take the lists of requirements for elders, take the prohibition for women to serve as priests in the old Covenant. It all points to a different role for women. Not a less valuable, but a different one.

[@annalynn9325]

For anyone who’s going to freak out off the top... no, she’s not suggesting here that women should be pastors

[@jeanene72]

Paul is not saying that a woman is somehow saved because she has had children. There is more going on here that Paul is addressing. One important aspect of the Artemis cult that will bring some sense to this, relates to the fear of death in childbirth. The cult believed the husband/father of the unborn child, had to get with the temple prostitute in order to get the favor of the goddess, so that his wife (and child) would be "safe" in childbirth. Paul is reassuring them, that, no, you don't have to do that, your faith in Christ is enough for you to be safe (and not fear death) during childbirth.

[@Fabbo18]

Hi, i have a curious question about your own faith since i myself am catholic. What type of protestant are you? I have understood there are different types of protestants and i would like to know if you are baptist? Reformert? Nondenominational? Thank you for your great videos

[@ponypublications]

Can't wait!!!

[@GospelSimplicity]

Hope you enjoy it!

[@db198081]

Love what I’ve learned from Sandra. Listened to a podcast that spoke of her and immediately punched her audiobook. She revealed details that supported what I’ve learned about looking at the Bible through its original context from Dr. Michael Heiser. So good.

[@davidvartanian]

The verses about women prophesying, teaching, serving alongside male church leaders far outweigh the two verses about women being silent. People who just want to stick to an ahistorical reading of the Bible without understanding context need to learn that they are also interpreting the Bible. They are just doing it blindly.

[@JW_______]

Which verses?

[@davidvartanian]

@@JW_______ too many to list. Read the new testament with this idea in mind and you’ll noticed that I’m talking about easily: women are disciples and anointed with the Holy Spirit as well.

[@JW_______]

@@davidvartanian But I have read it many times and don't know what you're talking about? There are perhaps two verses speaking of woman benefactors, deacons, or church members. I don't see that as a clear tipping of the scales against the verses that specifically prohibit woman being in leadership over men in the church. It would be much more convenient and comfortable if what you say is correct, don't get me wrong.

[@davidvartanian]

@@JW_______ Miriam, Deborah, Hudah, Anna, and Philips daughters were prophets. Junia was an apostle. Euodia and Syntyche were Paul’s co-workers. Tabitha was called a disciple, and the rest of the women who followed Jesus were assumed to be as well. The Holy Spirit fell on the women as well at Pentecost to confirm that. You become a disciple to do what Jesus did. You receive the Spirit to be empowered in serving the church. What is the only limitation to the practice of discipleship and using your spiritual gifts? It’s the cultural context you’re living in. Paul adjusted his practices to accommodate the culture he was living in to not hinder the gospel. (Men were told not to wear head coverings in Corinth, but that was standard practice for Jewish men in Israel.) So were women appointed as elders and bishops? No. You can assume that is a permanent restriction, but it would just be an assumption. Given the facts about the things women did in the Bible, I’m going to safely assume that the gender restrictions were temporary and cultural. Restricting women now has the opposite effect. It hinders the gospel because it comes off to outsiders as sexist and archaic, which is currently is. Fundamentally, you can’t reason out a complementarian theology without getting stuck at the reason for the restrictions. I’ve found that scholars like Schreiner and Mounce will just say they don’t know the reason; they just want to obey scripture, or they’ll make sexist conjectures about female ontology.

[@godsgospelgirl]

Next interview Mike Winger!

[@michellearmenta1116]

One of the reasons I really enjoy your channel is that you offer many perspectives of a topic that may even differ from your own as a source of a better understanding of said topic. This is a subject near and dear to my heart that is often cast aside due to its sensitive and often controversial nature. In keeping with the tone of the channel, may I suggest interviewing someone with a completely different perspective on the Pauline epistles? Stephanie Gordon who wrote Ask Your Husband. Marriages are being transformed because of this book. That is not to say that it doesn't have it's share of attacks for obvious reasons. If you do decide to interview her, I suggest you ask her husband first, Timothy Gordon. I think that would be the proper and respectful thing to do. 😊

[@GospelSimplicity]

Glad you enjoy the range of views represented on the channel. I was sent a review copy of that book, and I decided to pass on an interview. However, I am open to having more perspectives on this topic.

[@judygaleinchapelhill]

❤

[@Particularly_John_Gill]

The answer to the thumbnail is no.

[@dandeliontea7]

Sure buddy

[@r.a.panimefan2109]

Bring on the egalitarianism. Sola scriptura is best when we bring the cultural and historical context. And take all the bible... Deborah miriam Magdalen Anna Phoebe a deacon Junia And so many more out whiegh the two verses from pual. Mike hieser( never build doctrine from one verse) and(if some thing is wierd its important)

[@wbl5649]

This is just another intellectual attempt to negate/usurp the order which God has established.

[@WhatYourPastorDidntTellYou]

Your comment is just another intellectual attempt to negate/usurp the order which God has established

[@theguyver4934]

Just like biblical and historical evidence proves that jesus and his apostles were vegatarians biblical and historical evidence also proves that the trinity, atonement, original sin and hell are very late misinterpretations and are not supported by the early creed hence its not a part of Christianity I pray that Allah swt revives Christianity both inside and out preserves and protects it and makes its massage be witnessed by all people but at the right moment, place and time The secred text of the Bible says ye shall know them by their fruits So too that I say to my christian brothers and sisters be fruitful and multiply Best regards from a Muslim ( line of ismail )

[@migspeculates]

focus in your Quran for inconsistencies. Periodt.