Paula Vennells at the Post Office inquiry: Lawyers ‘more aggressive’ with questioning

“They were going to really go for the jugular today.”
The sub-postmasters’ lawyers were expressing the emotions of the victims as they questioned Paula Vennells on the third day of her testimony, says Bryan Glick.
📻 Listen to Times Radio - www.thetimes.co.uk/radio
📍 Subscribe to our channel - / @listentotimesradio
🗞 Subscribe to The Times www.thetimes.co.uk/subscribe/...
📲 Get the free Times Radio app www.thetimes.co.uk/radio/how-...

[@GeoffreyMH]

Top marks to Paula for employing all 7 of the "7-Ds" of the banality of evil: Deflect, Diffuse, Discredit, Delay, Deny, Discourage, Dissemble

[@briancohenthepfjmassive.4769]

Deacon blue with no dignity.

[@roberttaylor7373]

SHE SHOULD LOSE HER HOME/MONEY AND FREEDOM

[@CrazyMedic]

she should be jailed and also repay the bonuses and end of contract golden handshakes…. with interest and a penalty payment along with having her pension revoked. Then maybe others in a similar high position would show more credibility.

[@sadjaxx]

Its only reasonable.

[@MarkWhitter-qm6ef]

Let her do jail time like those whose lives she ruined. Still in denial, even now. No sympathy whatsoever.

[@spongebob8678]

this woman destroyed lives for greed...

[@ololiver92]

Now it's her turn

[@MartinRiggs123]

Well done Computer Weekly. They’ve been pushing this since the start

[@Lynnefromlyn]

Well no, they did have to be dragged kicking and screaming at first. But fair do’s they came on board.

[@archwombat9250]

A good Christian would have overruled the suggestion to accept injustice to protect a corporate reputation.

[@Dav1Gv]

If Paula Vennels is an example of how a Christian should behave thank God I'm an atheist!

[@andydudley1775]

thats was just a failed grift to get a seat in house of lords.the person who chose her aparently never new her.

[@ChangesOneTim]

​​​@@andydudley1775 Vennells' diocesan bishop, who does know her well, promptly removed her from official Church duties after POL lost the group litigation case...he happens to be a postmaster's son😊

[@minui8758]

@@ChangesOneTimthat’s quite gratifying to know

[@gherkamum]

Paula Vennells.....I loved the post-office and the large salary i was on........Ive just covered my own back

[@user-dp4li7og1p]

If the postmasters had tried this nonsense: “I can’t remember… I imagine I would have… I wasn’t told…. I did my best….” What would Post Office would have done? We should give them the same mercy as they demonstrated to their victims.

[@SundaeExpress]

"...the sterling work that Computer Weekly has done to report out this story when others haven't..." And once again, the sterling work carried out by Private Eye over the last 20 years or so to expose this scandal has been overlooked.

[@youubik]

What about the judiciary ... their remit is to discern between the guilty and innocent ... why havn't the judges been called to give evidence to explain what went wrong in the courtroom

[@roberttaylor7373]

PLEASE DO US A FAVOR AND SENTENCE HER TO LIFE IN PRISON MAKE HER PAY REPARATIONS

[@paramotorhead]

It’s an enquiry, not a trial. Unless a prosecution is brought, nothing will happen. The elites tend to look out for one another.

[@terrycain5840]

P.O. and P&O. Vennels and Hebblethwaite should both be jailed.

[@davebarlow6457]

Even if it's for a short period of time , they need to pay.

[@SUFCDave51]

Add Sturgeon and Murrell to your list to make a lot more people happy.

[@therealrobertbirchall]

And all those CEOs and politicians responsible for the contaminated blood cover up.

[@nikolaslarson6891]

I would add William Crozier, predecessor of Paula Vennells and responsible for adopting Horizon in the first place, and who went on to be a CEO at ITV of all places...

[@garybown2682]

She’s had to choose between admitting she knew and therefore risk criminal charges against her and portraying herself as an incompetent CEO. She’s chosen the latter.

[@Lynnefromlyn]

That’s exactly what all the other bods INCLUDING their lawyers said isn’t it ! According to them they freely admit they are incompetent and totally lacking any knowledge.

[@jimmybeegood]

Imagine her trying to preach the Lords word to anyone now . Judas has more integrity

[@CoraJean19]

Judas at least had remorse.

[@jamesmason8944]

He lost his life. She is of this world. Serving Mammon.

[@kiriakoz]

Whenever I learn that someone is religious, my respect for them diminishes just based on past experience.

[@brianlopez8855]

never stopped Justin Welby

[@andydudley1775]

she worships marmon

[@esme68]

And to think that people like Vennells also work in the NHS.

[@Dav1Gv]

And, according to last week's Sunday Times, it was very difficult to get her out of her position even after the GLO and CCA cases. She refused to resign until a member of the Board said he would go if she didn't. I suppose the £2.0m she got from the PO wasn't enough to pay for her year writing the witness statement (actually when I think about it that may have been tricky as she had to make so much up).

[@beammeup8458]

WHO APPOINTED THAT GROSSLY INCOMPETENT WOMAN ? OTHER INCOMPETENTS ? must also be identIified !

[@ChangesOneTim]

The tone of the barristers' questioning is spot on; they are keeping in mind that this is inquisitorial not their usual criminal trial adversarial!

[@lohphat]

Of cource sociopaths don't feel remorse.

[@CoraJean19]

Their convictions will be quashed, but you cannot bring someone back to life.

[@juztnlast953]

Did Fujitsu UK not notice sub postmasters were being prosecuted in the media? Did Fujitsu not know Computer Weekly was writing articles about its software? Even the Union of Sub Postmaster's knew and kept the Post Office's secret. What about Vennells' predecessors who share in her blame? There are so many people, in addition to Paula Vennells, who share in the blame and should not be overlooked simply because the damn broke when Vennells was CEO. Even the BBC did not report enough about the Post Office scandal until everyone was covering it.

[@johnathanh2660]

Yes. This is one of the most disappointing aspects. There were IT professionals (helpdeskers, coders, project managers) working at Fujitsu on this Horizon system, reading the news, reading the articles in 'Computer Weekly', who were looking at the open tickets in their call logging system. Why weren't they stepping forward and whistleblowing? They knew what the defects were with the system, and operational practices (i.e. workarounds), and yet they're seeing prosecutions based on unreliable data from a 'buggy' system. Was it 'didn't know' and 'didn't care'? Or were they fully complicit and senior management were shutting their staff down?

[@MrDarkweaver]

Has anyone noticed how all of them who have actually offered apologies, never claim responsibility, they are only sorry that the SPMs suffered. No one takes the blame, no one takes responsibility. They are all so busy covering their arses and throwing each other under the bus that none of them seem to realise just how much trouble each them are in, at the very least for criminal negligence, and at worse for corporate manslaughter. From the investigative teams to the highest level, each of them need to be held accountable for their roles in this completely avoidable tragedy. Take her bonuses and pension, and jail her for at the longest sentence that any of the wrongly convicted SPMs were sentenced to.

[@ChangesOneTim]

If they were to 'claim responsibility', perhaps it risks being taken as admitting (personal) legal liability.

[@MrDarkweaver]

@@ChangesOneTim I appreciate the point you are making, however I do believe there are ways of saying, "I am to blame for this, this and this, and the reasons I chose to do them are the following. I appreciate now that with hindsight and additional information, I made a series of bad decisions, and I accept that I was wrong to do so." None of them have done anything remotely like that. All of the, have apologised for the suffering for the SPMs, none of them have apologised for their part in their suffering as far as I can tell. People like Paula Vennels, Angela van den Bogart, and many others have all tried to say they were misled, or didn't have the right information. It is the disingenuous way that it is never their fault, and they are victims of bad information, being misled, acting under company orders, or some other reason which deflects any blame on their part.

[@utopianna]

I watched the PBS show "Mr. Bates vs The Post Office". It was so hard to believe that Paula Vennells maintained that she did nothing wrong for all those years. So very sad. And disgusting.

[@stevenhoward3358]

I guess Paula will be off to take afternoon tea with the Archbishop of Canterbury to seek solace and understanding for her keyboard typing all those wrong words.

[@greenpedal370]

I think you can bet on that.

[@chrishaps6846]

Great journalism , thank you for reporting on this

[@MrGavinBoyd]

Theatre for the masses. Will any of those responsible go to prison?

[@lohphat]

Prison is for poor people, you silly goose.

[@greenpedal370]

Probably not but I suspect none of those who appeared will be employable any more.

[@primafacie6442]

@@greenpedal370gold plated index linked public pensioners don’t need work.

[@greenpedal370]

@primafacie6442 They probably have very expensive tastes. They still need to work or adjust downwards, which they probably cannot do well.

[@bauer9101]

Unless she faces meaningful consequences then it’s all fluff. She will grit her teeth, get through it and then release a book or some other such ridiculousness.

[@davesandall4530]

At least 6 of these Post Office senior management should be jailed

[@MichaelEnright-gk6yc]

Now she is crying imagine if Bradshaw was investigating her in her own house.

[@johannesnicolaas]

Or ten lawyers invading her office who made offensive remarks...

[@jacquelinetaylor8683]

She is in denial. She knows what she did. It was despicable and now shes telling lies to deflect the enormity of what she did to the sub postmasters and their children. Legal prosecutions should follow.

[@CBerry939]

All her answers are all head & no heart.

[@billsmith-hl8rk]

It's good that she managed to keep the scandal out of the news.

[@lesleysmith8300]

It's absolutely scandalous what those poor Post Masters went through and they'll be those who died won't get to see what happens and to know they were innocent. Words cannot express how l feel about what's happened. God knows what the ultimate outcome will be. I would not want to be in their shoes.

[@X94Caz]

I lost my office in 2000. Horizon was installed in Nov 1999, by Jan 2000 I was asking for Horizon to be removed from my office, I lost thousands covering the losses that Capture said I didn't owe. But if I didn't I couldn't open on Thursday, a day that had major allowance pick ups, I had pensioners and others relying on my office for the money for food, rent, heating. What would you have done??????

[@lesleysmith8300]

@@X94Caz l surely hope you get it all back and compensation for the stress you went through. Terrible injustice definitely happened. I hope you recover from it. ❤️🙏

[@roberttaylor7373]

SHE HURT ALOT OF PEOPLE NO EXCUSE

[@kenmmseven]

LiAr LiAr Land

[@kylemc0254]

Will she get arrested?

[@Jeanne90275]

The negative Second Sight forensic audit was in 2013! It was her choice ..

[@alastairmckenzie7076]

She and others in senior management team should experience what the Sub Post Masters experienced. Not being believed, being accused of being criminals, being shamed publicly, being made bankrupt, losing their homes and businesses and being sentenced to a jail term. And even this doesn't account for those who committed suicide and suffered relationship breakups. Paula has apologized, but doesn't appear to she that she is accountable.

[@MikePhillips-ru6hw]

Whose HR department is worse, the Post Office or the CofE?

[@petercumiskey2746]

Send her to jail liar.

[@harveystork5862]

She knows a lot more than shes letting on, I do hope she is arrested very soon.

[@davebarlow6457]

They have gone in harder today , it needed to be done. Still too many "l have no recollection" or "I do not recall" answers from her though. So many people have had selective amnesia when questioned in this enquiry that it makes you wonder how on earth they managed to get through the interview process for their powerful positions within the company !

[@roberttaylor7373]

THIS CANNOT HAPPEN AGAIN

[@paramotorhead]

I guarantee something similar will be happening right now where the little people are paying for the greed of the ‘elites’.

[@Royboy50]

It will ,even though lessons will be or have been learned,we’ve all heard it before

[@JetsG2020]

It already is with certain gain of function coronavirus research...

[@johnathanh2660]

Plus ca change

[@joisagirlsname]

I think its quite clear she knew full well there was a problem with the system but she didn't care what havoc she was causing in peoples lives as long as her bottom line looked good enough to extract massive bonuses from it.

[@ivanconnolly7332]

Whatever about La la land she will bat least be sent to Coventry.

[@stevenhoward3358]

as Bishop?

[@kinorspielmann4649]

CofE ➡️ CEO ➡️ CBE

[@paramotorhead]

CNT.

[@paulyoung4422]

La La. Ha, Ha, Ha. The biter, bit.

[@jamesfairmind2247]

A very long jail sentence is the only appropriate resolution along with the seizure of all "bonuses" covering the period in question. BTW don't forget "Sir" Kier Starmer was in charge of the DPP which instigated entire prosecution process of every single one of those innocent people. Of course he says he "wasn't aware of it"LOL! the largest prosecution in British history and the man in charge "wasn't" aware of it. Well there you go, he won't be "aware' of anything else in his his new role as our next "Prime Clown" either will he?

[@katebuckfield7736]

Well done Computer weekly.✨✨✨🏆🏆🏆🏆✨✨✨

[@paramotorhead]

The thing is over the last 20 years at least, the corporate’s whole ethos has been about covering their backs, just take health and safety as an example. The whole risk assessment thing puts the responsibility on the person doing it. Releasing the directors and senior management from any personal repercussions. If they are ever caught out, they get a big payout, keep their bonus and slip quietly out the back door. I doubt Vennells will suffer any real consequence, but, I live in hope.

[@alantheinquirer7658]

Sub-postmaster tears demand pity and mercy. Vennell's crocodile tears deserve contempt.

[@christopherquinn5899]

Too quiet.

[@kevinmcguire1049]

Vennelles on a number of occasions said she did not see reports and thus was unaware and these were written by third parties. The PO had an Enterprise Risk register and risks would be identified by internal departments, internal audit and reports written by independent third parties. So when a third party wrote that a system was not fit for purpose and other such observations how did they not appear on the register and then seen by leadership and the board? There is just too much convenient amnesia by leadership over a very extended period of time……

[@MrAgbxl]

Mark Davies is employed by the Refugee Council which is really quite an extraordinary thing

[@barbs574]

Punishment for her and others involved, should be very severe

[@victorgrainger895]

Get this compensation money PAID out - As of NOW

[@Dav1Gv]

I've lost count of the number of times Miss Vennels said that what she had written - which was usually rather rude about anyone who criticised the Post Office - wan't what she meant. How on earth did she get a degree if she can't say what she means and/or write clearly? Does anyone believe her attempts to explain what she actually meant - usually that she was doing well? Incidentally I thought falsifying a prospectues was an offence for which you were jailed.

[@chrisfell5073]

It could have stopped in 1999 before the contract was signed. John Mills gave the go ahead with 'Horizon is robust' when it was known to be defective and not fit for purpose.

[@katebuckfield7736]

Mark Davis is now front page news along with Paula and Angela.

[@brianrogers8382]

Uk stand together and get her jailed

[@next2normal]

More than one should go too jail, a precedent needs too be made, that's what good about English law

[@robertscotton5882]

I get the impression that this sort of behaviour is endemic within corporations. The monopolies and mergers commission need to their job and split these corporations up. It may go some way to putting a stop to "globalism"?

[@sarahtaylor8483]

Teach our future leaders critical thought and the ability to speak up against ‘ popular opinion’. Ask more questions and delve deeper.

[@guitarman704]

She needs to be held accountable.

[@jamesjennings-yd2bc]

She's on track to be given a top job somewhere. If I aced like this at work, I would be fired.

[@TankEnMate]

Failure, when your best just isn't good enough. She abdicated responsibility and now hopes to get away with it.

[@spongebob8678]

if ther are no prosecutions all this bks.as been to no avail..

[@Scott-up3bq]

Logically, perverting the course of justice could be a charge for vennells,her offsider Angela,and a few others.

[@aprilfox1057]

She really did not have clue. Her business acumen was so lacking she almost destroyed POL.

[@woodenseagull1899]

What a mess. She is blatantly not up to the job. One can only think she was distracted by her involvement with the Church of England?

[@losthope9909]

Or one could believe that she blatantly lied?

[@delinquentinparadise]

Or that she was put there to be used by the movers and shakers in Government who were getting a kickback on an extremely large Computer Programming Contract ?

[@johannesnicolaas]

Ah soon we will have a new TV serial: the Vicar of Mammon....

[@johnwilson571]

What about all the money she got from the Royal Mail in bonuses it’s time she gave it back or to charity.

[@PG-ts9xz]

Computer Weekly guy is right on.

[@andrewlusty5584]

I hope they are all jailed.

[@roberttaylor7373]

😡👎

[@rubberplantsandwich]

Imagine, at your place of work, some money goes missing. You get blamed. If you deny it you are threatened with court resulting in prison. Or if you admit it you just get a suspended sentence or community punishment. So to avoid prison you admit guilt. Over and done with you think. Then your company sues you for court costs because you were found guilty, you owe £350,000 in court costs. Your life ruined. This company is called the Post Office. Their logo is " whatever you need us for, we're here for you". They spent £100 million in expensive lawers to try to avoid paying £58 million in compensation. The class action saw the incorrectly convicted see £20,000 in compensation after court costs. The executive salaries were between £250,000 and £500,000.

[@katebuckfield7736]

Private Eye ✨✨✨🏆🏆🏆✨✨✨

[@FrankFrankston-kj4sx]

Where is Mark Davis? Anyone know?

[@Scott-up3bq]

She will not unfortunately have wages,or monies taken from her.the police in time will probably present a case before the crown prosecution service.who will decide to prosecute or not.period

[@MsxHolmes]

where is sara miller

[@laphelps1]

She’s a damned narcissist blaming others for her shortfalls…..”I wasn’t told…..I wasn’t made aware…..I trusted people too much”…..SHE was the CEO, SHE should have known the procedures within the organisation more than anyone……the liar was only concerned about herself, covering her back with every pause taken before answering questions…..this should go before a judge and she should pay for all of the suffering by those poor people. I’ll never ever again trust a woman/man of the cloth!! Just appalling 😡

[@Dunkcanio]

It’s Carbon Copy, not Courtesy Copy

[@nickoforesta5788]

Numerous times during her testimony she says she did one thing and the paper trail shows she either did nothing or the exact opposite of what she said she did

[@drandrewallan]

If she had called the dogs off 10years ago and then showed Fujitsu had lied the scandal would be much less ! That waste Cristian thing to do!

[@peterwiles1299]

A pillar of the church but no understanding of the difference between right and wrong.

[@Simon-im2zn]

She does know the difference between right and wrong, unfortunately it isn't on the same level as the 'honest' majority.

[@katebuckfield7736]

Craven and self serving sums Paula up perfectly.

[@iVenge]

Who is this man Paul Vennells again?

[@kiriakoz]

I'm very surprised that the Times is anti - Paula Vennells, they love Tories and all of the forces that have contributed to her being in the job in the first place with such a rotten attitude. David Cameron gave her a CBE, the Tories have initiated further contracts with Fujitsu, all after this was known in the public domain.

[@Dav1Gv]

Not sure it's fair to say The Times is pro-Tory (unlike the Daily Mail) but they do tend to be pro-establishment/

[@sailingwhitsundays5672]

It’s staggering how she actually operated vs how she thinks she operated. Nothing to see here mentality. Wildly delusional.

[@user-js3rg9sj1k]

😂😂😂😂😂

[@MsxHolmes]

Charles is no King.

[@alfieakaronaldog]

Yep. A decent King would make sure justice was done. It was all Royal Mail originally!

[@andrewmitchell8859]

Paula Vennels now a vicar , God will judge us an only God !

[@Dav1Gv]

Actually she's isn't a vicar any more - whether she was sacked, jumped before she was sacked or left because of her conscience (unlikely) is not clear. At least she wasn't 'unfrocked' that would really have been a cruel and unusual punishment (for all of us)

[@IggyGoesPop666]

In preparation for this three day event, Vennell's would have undertaken dozens of practice training cross examinations with her lawyers to iron out how to present herself and deflect the accusations during the inquiry. She knows that it's not working as she is constantly breaking down in tears, whilst we can see that she was either asleep at the wheel or she is lying about her time in charge of the Post Office! Either one, its obvious to see that her priority was always to look after herself, her reputation, her performance bonuses & pension top ups as she happily sat back and watched people lose their livelihoods whilst some of them lost their lives. She now needs to be investigated by the Police on criminal charges and if/ when she is found guilty ... she needs to be thrown into prison. Every penny that she has taken in bonuses must be paid back in full and with interest as she has fraudulently stolen them from the Post Office/ British Tax Payers!

[@Dav1Gv]

If her lawyers did take her through a practice run, and I agree they probably did, maybe she should sue them for negligence in view of her very poor performance. Clearly they failed to give her any diecent lines to get over all those appalling emails - 'I din't mean that, I meant this' is hardly convincing the first time let alone when she said it over and over again.

[@user-xk5nl4sb2z]

Honourable people took their own lives over Vennells, if she had one ounce of remorse left she would follow suit.

[@lawrencevincent1]

She's going to prison.

[@user-rr6gr7og9q]

It’s exasperating when a self proclaimed holier than though person like the ordained priest Vennells take an oath on the bible to tell the whole truth and then blatantly fails to do so.

[@user-oy3fl5jr7q]

And she's supposedly been ordained? how does one serve the Lord & the Devil simulteaneously?

[@opkank6551]

She gets off scot free please get your head out of the clouds

[@MichaelEnright-gk6yc]

Venals

[@user-hv1yf2rm7m]

She’s in £multi-million lala land style …whilst the Honest hardworking loyal staff were SHAFTED over the cliff to pay for it

[@nikolaslarson6891]

Almost a bit schizophrenic, isn't it. On the one side being a ruthless and cold blooded manager of a corporation and on the other side a vicar who is supposed to show empathy and compassion to his/her fellow humans. She failed there too...

[@Dav1Gv]

It's called being a sociopath - someone who can't understand how others feel (see Dontald Trump's trials).