Suffering and Evil: The Logical Problem (William Lane Craig Edition) (feat. Prophet of Zod)

We are all well aware of the suffering and evil in the world -- horrific suffering, unthinkable evil. How then can anyone believe in the existence of an all-loving all-powerful God? And if God does exist why would anyone want to worship Him? Dr William Lane Craig attempts to answer, and Prophet of Zod answers his answer.
Suffering and Evil: The Logical Problem
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Prophet of Zod
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[@SawtoothWaves]

You should call WLC's tactic of hiding assumptions in his premises "Craiging the question"

[@Paulogia]

ha ha ha ha ha

[@mysticmehrunes2358]

good one

[@kimmyswan]

@@mysticmehrunes2358 W saw

[@SawtoothWaves]

"Mr. Ogia was my father. Please, call me Paul."

[@georgialenny6265]

I was legit disappointed when he didn't say this....caused me pain and suffering

[@turboguppy3748]

"How could we possibly know this?" Welcome to athiesm Dr Craig.

[@JamesRichardWiley]

The fossil record? Radiometric dating? DNA coding? Who cares when you have rival Hebrews living in desert tribes answering the big questions.

[@JamesRichardWiley]

Dr. Craig is playing a word game that has nothing to do with reality. Bill rejected reality in high school when he discovered how purposeless it appeared to be. Then he invented his own, sold it in writing and offered courses.

[@ROCCOANDROXY]

Let's first prove the form of the argument is valid. The contents of the argument are p = God cannot prevent evil, q = God will not prevent evil, r = not all powerful, s = not all good. Form: p V q p --> r q --> s --------- therefore, r V s. A* : (p V q) (~p --> q) is a tautology. I.E; The two statements are equivalent. You can easily show A* is a tautology be using a truth table. Proof using simple rules in a first order predicate logic: (1) p V q Given (2) ~p --> q A* (1) (3) p --> r Given (4) ~r --> ~p Contrapositive (3) (5) ~r --> q Chain Rule (4,2) (6) q --> s Given (7) ~r --> s Chain rule (5,6) (8) r V s A* (7) The form of this argument is valid independent of the contents(values of p,q,r, and s). Since I find it just as likely to accept all premises as to reject one or more of the premises, neither the atheist viewpoint nor the theist viewpoint, in my opinion, are convincing or worth discussing.

[@pmtoner9852]

More paulogia zod crossovers please

[@chosenskeptic5319]

ROCCO DALTO 🤔 all you did was add rules to you equation to make your argument work. You can logic anything into existence, but that doesn’t mean it exist. For example, a straw man argument. I hunger for pizza 🍕 therefore pizza exist, which is true. I hunger for god, therefore god exist, cannot be proven as not true. Replace god and see the logic fail. I hunger for unicorns 🦄 therefore unicorns 🦄 exist. So why did it fail. It fail because its a claim assertion unsupported by empirical evidence.

[@pansepot1490]

I always found it strange that a classic Greek was bothered by the “problem of evil”, since Greek polytheism has many gods either indifferent to humans, or easily pissed, or both, therefore evil is the easiest thing to explain. So one day I checked Wikipedia: “ *There is no surviving written text of Epicurus that establishes that he actually formulated the problem of evil in this way, and it is uncertain that he was the author.[187]* An attribution to him can be found in a text dated about 600 years later, in the 3rd century Christian theologian Lactantius's Treatise on the Anger of God[note 3] where Lactantius critiques the argument. Epicurus's argument as presented by Lactantius actually argues that a god that is all-powerful and all-good does not exist and that the gods are distant and uninvolved with man's concerns. The gods are neither our friends nor enemies.”

[@Mostlyharmless1985]

Pat Pezzi yep pretty much. The problem of evil only attacks their very special friend. The answer “He’s just not that into us.” Was always on the table, it’s just unpalatable to a Christian.

[@DL-rl9bd]

Mostlyharmless1985 exactly, the argument from incredulity for the christian.

[@DemiImp]

Thank you thank you thank you I have been wondering this also and never looked it up (mostly because I forget the question before any video that take about it ends)

[@DemonicRemption]

@@Mostlyharmless1985 As a Christian I understand that God allows evil to exist to test the mental and spiritual fortitude of humans. Will they give into temptation like Adam and Eve, or stay steadfast like Job in spite of what he was put through? Will be defeated by life's adversities, or stand to fight again? But I'm not dumb either, I understand that I'm in a minority here. It sucks, but such is life.

[@Mostlyharmless1985]

@@DemonicRemption okay, so he’s a prick then. He’s omniscient. He already knows what we will do. There’s no need to test. So he’s evil, actively inflicting torture on us to satiate his twisted desires.

[@Drudenfusz]

All praise to the divine rock and its prophet of zod!

[@peniscapture068]

PRAISE THE ROCK GOD

[@peachbun]

Are you physically going out to save anyone right now? How are you a judge on morality?

[@stylis666]

@@peachbun Already saved a couple of people from death today. How was your day? Has your god buried any people in mudslides and earthquakes today yet? What was your contribution? I am the judge on morality because I have empathy. Are you not a biological entity? Are you perhaps a sociopath? And we change our morality according to our understanding and with we I mean everyone, including the theist dickheads who claim to have perfect moral guidance when it comes to divine vengeance and the condemning of things you can't even give a logical reason for, like homosexuality. You see, to us, heathens, theists and their arguments are quite pathetic and childish and we just try our best to respect you as a person, even when you're making an ass out of yourselves, which is every time you open your mouths about anything religion related and otherwise stupidly superstitious. Does that answer your questions?

[@peachbun]

You have saved a couple people from death? How? Aren't they still going to die? Couldn't they die tomorrow? A few more days in a broken world vs eternity, and you say you saved them? Yes, God allows people to die in disasters every day… But do you know how many of those people were already saved and will be restored? Do you know which ones have hardened their heart and didn't want to know the truth? So then their death whether today or tomorrow, laying in bed or in a disaster, was going to happen anyway, and it's what they were satisfied with, so why do you complain if they die? If God is not real and these disasters just happen anyway and there is no hope beyond it, then what does it even matter? Many people are dying right now that you do not even know about. What if I say your empathy and morality means nothing, because you're just a random speck, you could die tomorrow, i could die tomorrow, it doesn't matter. Once you die it will be as if you never existed to begin with.. All your pain, all your joy, completely meaningless. And by what standard do you measure morality and empathy? Maybe in reality you have very low standards….How do you know? You imagine meaning in the moment, and of course you can cry about it, but in reality it means nothing. And it's sad that people try to convince themselves to be satisfied with that, imagining contributing to some abstract magical universe, being brainwashed by ideas like the circle of life. As someone who knows God is real, well, we do have meaning, so it's not wrong to have certain values, it's part of God's design and intention. But without God, it really is pointless. Considering the increase in violence, when someone decides to do a mass shooting, that is their philosophy on life, so who are you to say it is wrong? Just because you don't like it? Well, they don't like your philosophy, so they have the same argument. You can cry that society builds it's standard and we should all adhere to it, but that still is impossible to keep if everyone is free to imagine whatever philosophy they want. There will always be issues, and the issues just continue to multiply layer after layer….. You can say there is a standard by your own imagination, but it has no eternal foundation. "And we change our morality according to our understanding and with we I mean everyone, including the theist dickheads who claim to have perfect moral guidance when it comes to divine vengeance and the condemning of things you can't even give a logical reason for, like homosexuality." I agree. But the difference is that when you acknowledge God and learn what is true, you know there is an ultimate authority and where your path should lead in learning more. If you don't even start with the basics, then there will not be any area for understanding, because one person has spiritual understanding, and the other does not. One does give respect to God, and one does not and lives by a worldly standard that borrows from God, but lives hypocritically without much concern. And if we are not able to treat each other as friends, as brother and sister who are concerned for one another, it can just be a pointless debate. It is easy to view someone else as looking down on you, and we have to try to win against the other. And we may say hypocritical things such as " and we just try our best to respect you as a person, even when you're making an ass out of yourselves, which is every time you open your mouths about anything religion related and otherwise stupidly superstitious." Respectful hmm…. You say superstition, meanwhile you could say things like the big bang theory are superstition, since there is not actual proof to this being true, but people imagine it to be true to the point of it being reality to them. All people whether Christian or not are flawed, and we are going to make mistakes. Unfortunately there is an assumption that Christians claim to be perfect, and so this among other reasons that turns some people away, who don't read the bible to know that we aren't going to be perfect during this time. Only Jesus ( God ) is. You say there is no logical reason to be against homosexuality… I'd have to agree that there is no logical reason without God. Well, except that we would't exist if everyone were homosexual. But since we have men and women to continue to give birth, then we're not in danger, eh? And even though it's an abnormality, in a YOLO world then yeah, it doesn't matter and people can do whatever, pursuing their pleasures, as long as the law as progressed to that point. Or even if the law hasn't shifted to allow something. But every law that exists doesn't mean something is actually good, because there is no standard for good. Humans can keep pushing for whatever it is they want to be accepted. There is no end to it. But there is also no end to the problems…. With God, I have heard plenty of testimonies of people that were LGBTQ+ come to know the truth and be saved. They wished they had not be supported and deluded for so long. They regret surgeries and other things they did throughout their life. And God did create man and women to be together… It's what biologically makes sense to give life. When you can realize you are not good and humble yourself, then you can start to learn what is actually true. You must begin again like a little child. God is loving, but he is also just… We do have to face the reality of this broken world right now… But we can learn that God's word is true and he promises to restore us and make all things new. Or we can reject that and keep complaining that we don't like the difficult things and never learn that God's word is true. Yeah, it sounds crazy to you if you just want to live for today. But that sounds crazy to me.

[@peachbun]

You seem to have replied, but then deleted it? It's showing a preview in my inbox, but not here. All I could see was that you said I could be wrong about those people dying… What fantasy world are you living in Setekh? 10/10 people die… And you think I'm wasting my life? How so? What do you think I'm missing out on that you're enjoying more? And if your empathy and morality is so high, how do you enjoy life in this broken world so much more while other people suffer and die? How do you say a "broken world" is only an opinion? Does everything seem good and right to you? Then what do you have to complain about or be against Christians about?

[@ShannonQ]

You're hot, let's go to the water park

[@felicciasc]

Hi ShannonQ You're awesome. Thanks for your work.

[@pwoods100]

Would be kind of hard with that guy's white noise face.

[@peachbun]

Are you physically going out to save anyone right now? How are you a judge on morality?

[@pwoods100]

@@peachbun Who are you talking to? Me? I'm an agnostic who supports these videos.

[@notwhatiwasraised2b]

@@peachbun Every single person is a judge of morality! Don't we all learn morality the same way, from parents, siblings, friends, schooling, community, law and self-reflection? Isn't that why different cultures and different people come to different conclusions about right and wrong and better or worse?

[@fred_derf]

The argument of evil has never been an argument against the existence of a god, it's an argument against the existence of a god with specific qualities.

[@NoXion100]

@Smarticus The idea of an omnipotent and omnibenevolent God is an extra-biblical addition by latter-day Christians.

[@Maxinestabile]

@@NoXion100 we’re not arguing against what the Bible says we’re arguing against what Christians believe. It doesn’t matter if the Bible never says he’s omnipotent omniscient or Omni benevolent, but it does matter that Christians believe that and that those are contradictory

[@TitanUranusOfficial]

You are now and forever "Mr. Ogia" to me! (and thanks for a great video debunking this ridiculous argument).

[@JamesM1994]

I find this apauling.

[@Paulogia]

ha ha ha

[@ZeroGForce]

@@Paulogia You know, O'Gia does have a nice ring to it, especially with that Celtic-sounding ditty prefacing some of your videos. _"Well now, if it ain't Paul O'Gia of the Irish O'Gias. Top o' the mornin' to ye, lad. I see yer doin' another video on that gobshite Craig. If'n you ask me, that boy's not quite the full shilling, if you catch my meaning... but hey, can't say it's not always a gas listenin' to you eat his head off."_

[@TenMinuteTrips]

The police officer analogy works very well, especially when looking back at the Margory Stoneman Douglas High School shootings in Parkland, FL. Four police officers were fired for not engaging the shooter, with one facing charges of criminal negligence. Should a god not be held to the same standard?

[@soriac2357]

Well, not for an apologist (and possibly, christians in general). They have the special entry in their mind: "God: see also 'pleading, special'" The general answer is usually "HOW DARE YOU!!!!! DO NOT HOLD SKY DADDY TO THE SAME STANDARDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" (shouted at the top of their lungs)

[@MrAngryLuke]

The free will argument drives me up the wall. It always assumes that there must always be an evil to every selection of choices. Like I wouldn't have free will if my choices for lunch didn't include poison. How about a world where all possible choices for action don't result in suffering.

[@YY4Me133]

Exactly right.

[@shriggs55]

" It does not depend on human will but on God who has mercy."-Rom.9:16 God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may have mercy on all."(Rom.11:32)--"God gave them a spirit of stupor,eyes that cannot see,and ears that cannot hear."(Rom.11:8) "I know Lord,that a persons way of life is not his own;no one who walks determines his own steps."(Jer.10:23) Where's the free-will in all that?

[@filipe.sm31]

Not only that, but free will doesn't explain suffering caused by natural causes, which means that humans have no choice on the matter.

[@OrlaSeraphxD]

I beg to differ you could be a bachelor of science and married 😂😝

[@bivsvideos]

What's hilarious is if you stretched out what you just said to be 8 paragraphs long, it'd sound exactly like a WLC argument.

[@Oswlek]

Well played. Extra points for your satire engaging in the same type of flimsy equivocation found on most apologetics.

[@douglashoughton2179]

I fit that category

[@OrlaSeraphxD]

@@douglashoughton2179 congratulations 😊

[@donnyrosart8714]

Why would God respect the free will of a pedophile--but not the free will of the victim? Why allow the one to compromise the free will of the other?

[@joecoolioness6399]

I think this video makes an excellent point. Stopping a pedophile from touching a child is not removing free will, the pedophile still has the will to touch the child. All you are doing is stopping an innocent from being harmed. Something their god seems not to be able or willing to do. It is all nonsense.

[@bivsvideos]

Wow, I love Zod's argument with the cop. It goes with and strengthens an argument I've had for some time: 'When a rapist rapes someone, he is violating their free will to some extent. A god that allows rape values the free will of the rapist more than the free will of the victim. Such a god is a piece of.... Excrement.' Zod makes an excellent point that stopping such an act doesn't deny the person being stopped from having their free will, just exercising their free will. So the new phrasing would be: When a rapist rapes someone, their the exercise of their free wills are in conflict: she doesn't want to be raped, and he wants to rape. Only one will get to exercise their free will. Preventing the rape does not violate the rapist's will, just his exercise of it, and would allow the victim to exercise her free will instead. A god who looks at this situation and allows the rape values the exercise of the rapist's will above that of the victim's. Such a god is not good. Thanks so much Zod, thanks so much Paul, love your guy's content!

[@AverageJillM]

I’m watching this in August 2022. Your police example is why we can’t just accept what happened in the school in Uvalde without cleaning out their police force.

[@jmicone6895]

Christianity needs to create a God 2.0; the one they currently propose is not keeping the younger believers on the leash.

[@mylucidadventures6540]

huh man change god sounds like a great idea, god is a person not a concept gods the creater not the created. the amount of end time prophecy that is happening at the same time in are day and age is amazing. you have the rise of sexual immorality you have wars disease and hunger all over the place the weathers going to crap, not to mentchen you have talk of building the third temple right as a red hefer is born as well as are society is pushing for a one world government and a cashless society, the dead sea is also coming to live.

[@michaelkierum42]

2 words : Buddy Christ!

[@fred_derf]

+J Micone, writes _"Christianity needs to create a God 2.0"_ We're already on God 2.x, what they need is a God 3.0 -- but that still leaves the problem of God being perfect and unchanging even though it's already undergone updates.

[@morroghaiky6580]

@@mylucidadventures6540 We have drastically less wars, less sick people, and less starving people since the year 1946 (wars), the invention of vactination, antibiotics (diseases), and Haber process (starvation), so fructose off, this is the best times we've ever lived in in our human history.

[@stylis666]

@@fred_derf Exactly. What we need to is rid ourselves of all dogma and teach critical thinking from elementary school until the last day of the attendance of any university and show how much freedom comes from actual thinking and knowledge.

[@RawbeardX]

a little bit of suffering builds character. that is why GOD allowed for his chosen people, his tribe, to go through a large scale character building excercise between 1941 and 1945

[@RawbeardX]

well, it was theirs before GOD kicked them out. I am starting to see a pattern with that guy...

[@GuitarDog_atx]

@@RawbeardX according to the bible, god gave them permission to exterminate the inhabitants of the holy lands and steal it for themselves. But I agree, there is a pattern with him ... and it ain't too pretty.

[@GuitarDog_atx]

​@Smarticus It's evidence of people believing in something strongly. Faith, nationalism, patriotism are strong emotions in humans, but hardly "evidence" of anything divine. Unless you think their god made a billion galaxy universe just for a few people. The jewish nation did kick ass after 1948, but their history is filled with them getting utterly defeated and humiliated.

[@necko2529]

What about the free will of those who don't want to suffer or haven't brought the suffering upon themselves?

[@TheBastius]

Obviously, God only cares about the protection of the free will of evildoers.

[@MarkusAlexanderMattsson]

Just because the victims will to avoid suffering, that doesn't make them immune from suffering, whether it's caused by a perpetrator's choice or by a natural disaster.

[@MarkusAlexanderMattsson]

@@TheBastius In a world where God would intervene every time someone attempted to do evil, what kind of world would that be? If an evil mind wants to do evil but can't because of God's intervention, then they'd still carry the evil will inside of them. Being forced to not exercise their evil wouldn't cure them from evil. However, when they are allowed to pursue their evil, the chance is bigger that they will be brought to justice and realization of their transgressions than if they'd just cary their hate within. And if we widen our perspective to a life in eternity, one's suffering on Earth is very limited, and thus the hope for an eternity without suffering can help us endure suffering, even if it's gratuitous. And I believe that God really cares for the victims and cries with the victims every time they are attacked. And there are a lot of testimonies of people (including myself) who believe that they've had unexplainable protection in fatal times, believing that God intervened to save them. However, since the character of God is not to force human of doing anything, God cannot force us to trust him or to turn to him in times of hardship. Of all the victims of violence in the world, what if all of them would turn to God for help? And yes, evil things still happen to people who turn to God for protection. But if eternity exists, then all the suffering we experience during our lifetime is just temporary. If we trust the God of the Bible who says "I will make all things new", then there's a way to cope with gratuitous suffering during life on Earth.

[@necko2529]

@@MarkusAlexanderMattsson, why not create a world in which there's no violence?

[@necko2529]

@@MarkusAlexanderMattsson, what the hell does it mean to carry the evil will inside of them? And how would you know if they're evil or not inside, whatever that means.

[@Michael-lq7td]

I love the Prophet of Zod animation! =)

[@dozog]

LoL

[@stuartmcconnachie]

I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone say that they had prayed to their god about some suffering, and his reply was “don’t worry - that’s all part of my plan”. That’s just the justification they give when their god does not give them any answer, and just allows the suffering to continue unabated.

[@joecoolioness6399]

If god has a plan, then he already accounted for you praying so you have no choice in whether or not you pray. You are going to do whatever god planned. And the kicker is, praying can't change the plan so it is useless. Cannot believe people still believe this nonsense.

[@michaelsayad5085]

@@joecoolioness6399 God knows what you are going to pray for but knowledge is non-causal so your statement that "he already accounted for you praying so you have no choice in whether or not you pray" is fallacious. His knowledge is dependent on our free will. His knowledge is temporally prior but not logically prior to our free choices. An example is if you found someone tied up on train tracks and the train was coming towards them. Even though you know with nearly 100% certainty that they will be hit and die does not mean that you caused their death. "And the kicker is, praying can't change the plan so it is useless." If God takes our prayers into account then how are our prayers useless? Since he knows what prayers we are going to make before creating the world then he is able to create the world around our prayers. "You are going to do whatever god planned." True but his plan is made with my free will choices in mind and the free will choices of everyone who has existed plus the free will choices of everyone who has not existed in mind. It is plausible that he created a world in which an optimal amount of people are saved, for example, therefore, he would have to take into account the free will choices of people he did not create.

[@michaelsayad5085]

Many people throughout the Bible complain to God that he doesn't answer their prayers and end their suffering. Then he responds that he has reasons they can't understand so that is not true.

[@doug834]

Now I know it's going to be a good day when two of my favorite voices of reason star in the same video. Paulogia and Prophet Of Zod always help me to better articulate my own thoughts on a variety of subjects, and these guys are definitely among my all-time favorite KZbinrs - not to mention some of the smartest and most articulate voices in rational thought period. Great collaboration guys and please keep up the great work.

[@emptyhand777]

Free will is a scam. Show me one person on Earth who chose to be created. I didn't. I am here against my will yet I face eternal torture if I don't worship, act, or even think correctly.

[@emptyhand777]

@Marilyn Newman - I agree, but these creationists, in my opinion, are not attempting to prove the existence of God, they seek to prove the Bible. Because if they prove a God exists, that doesn't prove their particular religion is correct because they are still left with mountains of errors, fallacies, and contradictions in a purported divinely inspired holy book.

[@diaryofamadpanda3123]

Shh, don't tell ShannonQ that I'm first

[@ShannonQ]

😦

[@pyrokittykat744]

😅😅😅😅🙈🙈🙈🙈 BUSTED

[@diaryofamadpanda3123]

@ajs1031 I prayed soooo hard, and the cattle I sacrificed were soooo clean

[@Johnryan123321]

Why couldn’t god just make people who still have “free will” but just have no desire to do evil?

[@TrueMetis]

Or even have the desire but be physically incapable? Or is the fact that I'm physically incapable of flying under my own power a violation of my free will?

[@theconservativechristian7308]

He did and that was Adam and Eve...

[@theconservativechristian7308]

thewanderandhiscomp How do you justify Lucifer then? You can’t cherry pick and choose what parts of the Bible you use and ignore the rest.

[@DEATHCHICKEN1337]

He could've just tweaked the brain a little bit.

[@theconservativechristian7308]

KochDerDamonen What elements are necessary for free will to exist?

[@terryfuldsgaming7995]

11:50 but it's easy to prove that if the Christian god does exist, then free will can't. He's omniscient. He sees the future... he knew what would happen when he created the universe. Everything is just a rerun to him. So no, it really is logically impossible that both the Christian/ Muslim God exists, simultaneously with free will.

[@BroNumsi]

Just playing the devil's advocate here: Is there free will if there is no god? If so, if I could travel back in time, and thus would know that you would write this comment in the future, would I then have taken away your free will? Reading your comment would become a rerun for me.

[@joecoolioness6399]

@@BroNumsi not a good analogy. Better one would be, you go back in time and createTerry knowing he would write this post. He has no free will because you created him and he wrote the post. the whole idea is silly. Also, if you knew Terry would write this comment before you created him, how would you be justified in having any emotional response to the post? I'm referring to god getting angry and wiping out almost all living things. He had to have known that all of it would happen so how could he possibly be angry about it? He made it so it would happen! Like being mad at a laptop for breaking when you threw it at the wall.

[@kevinlitton1399]

It's the omniscience coupled with omnipotence whilst creating the universe. If god had the power and foresight to create reality, accounting for every conceivable scenario, then free will cannot exist within this reality.

[@BroNumsi]

@@joecoolioness6399 , no, the analogy is correct, since the premise was that since god knows what will happen, you have no free will. So, if I go back a day in time, and thus know what will happen, you have no free will. I don't need to create you to know that you will write your response to my comment. If there was a god, and "he" was omniscient, that wouldn't in itself take away my free will. An omnipotent god deliberately taking away my free will is one thing, but simply knowing my will beforehand doesn't make it less free.

[@annk.8750]

Free will exists every time you pick up a menu.

[@alebarca]

i almost miss the Beeping when PoZ Curses

[@kaybee6486]

WLC's video creator has obviously never made a squircle in minecraft...

[@bivsvideos]

God is gonna have a tough time making any circle if he thinks pi is three

[@theweakestlink2278]

Maybe God just likes to slice his pi into 3 whole pieces instead of carving it up into 3.14 slices!?!?

[@stevencorey7623]

Wow man. Good job. I don’t know how you get the time and patience to do all this studying😅😂🤣. Thank you for making these videos cause I certainly don’t have the time. Keep up the great work!

[@erictaylor5462]

Actually the argument should be, "Suffering exists, therefore, if God exists, he can not be good" Christians tend to think that any sort of God that is not the Christian God is not God. But the Christian God is only one sort of God.

[@StevenBerg69]

I think you're neglecting Christian views of eschatology. We Christians don't believe this current life is all there is.

[@sasilik]

@@StevenBerg69 and buddhists believe in reincarnation. How can you show that your belief in afterlife is more correct than buddhist belief about incarnation? Or that eternal oblivion after the death is not true?

[@erictaylor5462]

​@@StevenBerg69 Whether you believe in an after life or not is 100% irreverent to my argument. I am just addressing this particular argument, and the belief of *SOME* Christians. Not all Christians define God in the same way. When I say "Christians believe" I'm using it in exactly the same way Christians say "atheists believe" Tell me, as you have just done this, why do theists bring up irreverent points when trying to counter an argument? My comment clearly has nothing at all to do with the after life, it has to do with the nature of God. If you can't counter my argument, that is fair enough. Either ignore it, or ask for more details, or seek advice from others. To attack it in the way you did is just dishonest. You are trying to distract from the argument because you can't counter it. If I'm being honest with you, then you are obliged to do the same. At the very least, you need to be honest with yourself. If you can't reconcile your faith with reality, you should conclude that either your faith is wrong, or reality is wrong. Isn't it a bit arrogant to assume you are right and reality is wrong?

[@StevenBerg69]

@@sasilik Because of the historical proof of the Resurrection of Jesus, and by proving that all other belief systems besides Christianity are inferior. Eastern religions are self-contradictory, for example. I defer you to the writings, speeches and debates of former Hindu, Ravi Zacharias as well as William Lane Craig.

[@erictaylor5462]

@thewanderandhiscomp Does he need proof that he believes in an afterlife, or that an afterlife exists? Because his claim isn't that an after life actually exists, only that he believes it does. What he uses to support that belief may be faulty, but that is just between him and himself.

[@timothymulholland7905]

All those absolute qualities were drawn from Greek philosophy by Pauline types and pasted over the very human Old Testament Jewish Yahweh. There is no way to reconcile these sets of assumptions.

[@JamesRichardWiley]

Why does an all powerful god that is everywhere and knows all things need WLC to defend his existence?

[@joseph-thewatcher]

I enjoy your and Prophet of Zod’s channels. They have not only helped me to understand the fallacies of the Bible that I used to hold dear to my heart but also to understand the arguments of the Christian apologists. I have been binge watching your channel, Prophet of Zod, DarkMatter2525, Vinced Rino, Aron Ra, Genetically Modified Skeptic, Shannon Q and several others. I used to be a Christian until 5 months ago. These channels have been important to me during my journey out of religious indoctrination and strongholds. Thanks to all in the KZbin atheist community for what you do to help others break free from superstition and bravely embrace intellectual honesty.

[@mylucidadventures6540]

hey i would just like to ask you have you ever studied end time prophecy?

[@joseph-thewatcher]

GuyWithDaKrazyHare , Yes. That is a big part of my former church’s ministry.

[@owlbme]

💚 *quality content* 💚 Subbed to Profit of Zod!

[@GuitarDog_atx]

you should check out his old cartoon videos, really funny sh*t.

[@owlbme]

@@GuitarDog_atx Will do! 😁

[@probablynotmyname8521]

As neo so concisely put it: the problem is choice. There is no way to justify that children should suffer from diseases like progeria or cancer. The Child did not choose to get the diseases and have not made any life choices to justify their suffering (except for cartman), so the fact that a god allows it to happen indicates that god wants the child to suffer which means that they cannot be “good”. By definition god is a “kid with a magnifying glass” to quote keanu again.

[@adamgrotto8163]

YEAH!! PROPHET OF ZOD!! Awesome guest, Paul! Great episode!

[@UriahChristensen]

The real issue of the problem of evil is not about god stopping evil acts. Rather, the issue is with the prevention of evil and suffering. Responses like this to the apologetic is letting the apologist move the goalposts right off the bat, and ignores how the apologetic pushes an impotent god. When the apologist says that there is a greater good that is achieved by allowing suffering, or that there is a good reason for the suffering, entails that an omnipotent god is impotent to bring about a state of affairs without suffering. If god exists, then god would make the actual world with the least ammount of suffering. The actual world has more suffering than a possible world that is identical to the actual world with one less stubbed toe. So, God cannot not exist. The logical problem of evil/suffering is actually more powerful than apologists want you to think. The apologists have ignored the actual problem of evil, and have got people to accept rebuttals to a strawman. The Epicurean problem asks "whence cometh evil?" Obviously, any theodicy is an implicit admission that God does not exist.

[@busterggi1]

We deserve to suffer as we are irredeemable, depraved, loathsome, despicable, beings even though we are the all-knowing, all-loving God-s greatest creation. No contradiction there.

[@nicolasandre9886]

God is so benevolent he gave us the free will to murder, rape, torture, or allow Justin Bieber to sing.

[@normandybeach9230]

I love your channel. Would you share what program you use for animation?

[@Paulogia]

Adobe After Effects

[@normandybeach9230]

@@Paulogia thanks!

[@Redhand1949]

Craig's speakers, with their pseudo "learned foreign accent" voices, make listening to his arguments doubly annoying.

[@KingSplat1984]

Agreed... Not that Craig's own voice is any less infuriating.

[@germanvisitor2]

PoZ an Paulogia? This is reaching formerly unknown levels of laidbackness.

[@D-me-dream-smp]

WLC is very good at using word semantics to bolster his arguments. Firstly suffering and evil are two different entities. I’m sure he fully understands that people will acknowledge that some suffering can lead to greater understanding and compassion whereas evil, in most situations, I would posit does not have any such redeeming justification. As to suffering being part of a greater and supposedly infinitely good plan we all know of cases where undue, unrelenting suffering has been the catalyst for an eventual litany of evil acts. An prime example is the fact that a majority of sadistic serial killers experienced profound, prolonged abuse in their childhood (sometimes even under the guise of religious instruction). Religious beliefs can also lead to the tacit acceptance of the significant injustices in the world without motivating people to find a practical way to alleviate said issues beyond prayer or else as a tool to use as coercion to get more followers for their beliefs. The idea of God allowing us free will while threatening eternal damnation if we don’t submit to his dictates seems quite messed up. Among the many things that led me to questioning faith was the idea that someone who spent their whole life doing good could still go to hell while a person who spent years wreaking pain and devastation could repent on their deathbed and receive eternal bliss.

[@thelogician9879]

"We don't have Disney money. There's no clapping in the Paulogia-verse." ROFL, I love it!!!

[@tomboughan2718]

On a completely different topic. recently I heard that Mark Shelton( I think that was the name?) had left the Christian music scene, saying he no longer believes in God. He is of Hillsong. Anyway, your favorite Ken Ham said that he should go to his Ark Encounter and that will change his mind. I don't think so. LOL!

[@tomboughan2718]

@ Yes, it was Marty Sampson.Ken Ham thinks he can bring him back by taking him to his Ark Encounter, which I find HIlarious!Yeah, I heard about Josh Harris, too. Much to chagrin of fundies.

[@bitcores]

"It's logically impossible for God to force someone to freely do what is good", but he seemed to have no trouble forcing Pharaoh to do what is "bad". So does this mean we DON'T have free will? Or God can force people do bad things but people have to choose to do good on their own? I'm really confused here.

[@StevenBerg69]

Pharaoh hardened his own heart first. God, knowing Pharaoh's heart, further fortified it for His own purposes.

[@Masterblader158]

@@StevenBerg69 That just sounds like taking away free will with extra steps.

[@bitcores]

@@StevenBerg69 Even so, some of his refusals and broken promises were after the Lord hardened his heart. From this we can infer that God could have softened his heart, too, but instead He plays both sides, hardening Pharaoh's heart to the point where He would kill all the firstborn and then Pharaoh and his armies.

[@StevenBerg69]

@@bitcores But you forget, anything we receive short of eternal damnation is by God's grace. I don't doubt that Pharaoh could have finally repented in his last final moments and could be in the presence of his Creator now. We just don't know.

[@bitcores]

@@StevenBerg69 That's the brilliance of religion, it's untestable and unprovable. But regardless of his personal status with God, the actions he undertook due to God hardening his heart allegedly resulted in many thousands of deaths; his army and all the first-born in Egypt.

[@Johnnisjohnnis]

In the old testament God gave food to Moses and his people. Why do children starve? God's done it before, why not now? Helping someone who ask for help isn't reducing free will, in fact it increases what some people call free will. The greater our ability to make a potentiality become an actuality the more freedom we have to make our will come true. If maximum free will is a goal then giving help to those that ask for it is necessary. Some will say that children die of starvation in order to allow rich people to become better people.

[@1Dropboys]

Omg i was watching dumb things people say to athiests and I get a notification from my favorite feat. POZ spoooooky :p

[@brantheilman8178]

Notice that Craig does not address forms of suffering that do not involve free will at all, such as accidents, illnesses, or natural disasters. People generally don't choose to get cancer, or be born with some genetic defect, or have their house blown down in a hurricane, so why does God not prevent people form suffering who didn't make a choice to do evil? If god is all powerful and all knowing, then it would be no problem for him to create a world where both free will exists and there is no suffering for those who did not chose to do evil. So why didn't he? I guess the answer is supposed to fall under that "God has a plan we don't understand" dodge he gave.

[@joecoolioness6399]

What is even sadder is the sick evangelicals on TV who blame catastrophes on the other side of the world on people who don't live anywhere near there. Their god seems to have a propensity to punish innocents.

[@JimCampbell777]

I agree, POZ does have some of the most thought out and concise arguments on KZbin. I originally found him out through Paul. I'm a PROUD supporter of both of them on Patreon.

[@GuitarDog_atx]

The bible makes it clear, we DON'T have Free will: • Proverbs 16:4 The LORD works out EVERYTHING to its proper end. [Not just some things..."EVERYTHING."] • Proverbs 16:9 In their hearts humans plan their course, but THE LORD ESTABLISHES THEIR STEPS. [God even determines our very steps!] • Proverbs 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap, but its EVERY DECISION IS FROM THE LORD. • Proverbs 19:21 Many are the plans in a person's heart, but IT IS THE LORD's PURPOSE THAT PREVAILS. • Proverbs 20:24 A person's steps are DIRECTED BY THE LORD. • John 6:44 No one can come to me UNLESS the Father who sent me draws them. [That means only God decides who will be saved and who won't.] • Acts 13:48 and ALL WHO WERE APPOINTED for eternal life believed. [Those who come to believe in God were appointed to do so.] • Romans 8:7-8 Because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for IT IS NOT EVEN ABLE TO DO SO, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. • Romans 8:20 For the creature WAS MADE subject to vanity, NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope. • Romans 9:19-21 "You will say to me then, 'Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?' On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, 'Why did you make me like this,' will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, TO MAKE FROM THE SAME LUMP ONE VESSEL FOR HONORABLE USE AND ANOTHER FOR COMMON USE?" • Ephesians 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been PREDESTINED according to the plan of him who works out EVERYTHING in conformity with the purpose of his will. * Ephesians 1:4 God chose us in Christ to be holy and blameless in God’s presence before the creation of the world. 5 God destined us to be his adopted children through Jesus Christ because of his love. This was according to his goodwill and plan • Jeremiah 10:23 LORD, I know that PEOPLE'S LIVES ARE NOT THEIR OWN; IT IS NOT FOR THEM TO DIRECT THEIR STEPS. • Jeremiah 43:11 He will come and attack Egypt, bringing death to those DESTINED FOR DEATH, captivity to those DESTINED FOR CAPTIVITY, and the sword to those DESTINED FOR THE SWORD. • Isaiah 14:27 For the LORD Almighty has PURPOSED, and who can thwart him? • Isaiah 37:26 Have you not heard? LONG AGO I ORDAINED IT. In days of old I planned it; now I have brought it to pass. • Amos 3:6 Does disaster come to a city, unless THE LORD HAS DONE IT? [People don't cause disaster unless God makes them do it.] • Job 42:1-2 Then Job answered the LORD and said, "I know that You can do all things, And that NO PURPOSE OF YOURS CAN BE THWARTED." • Psalm 37:23 A MAN'S STEPS ARE ESTABLISHED BY THE LORD, and the LORD delights in his way. [Only an evil God would delight in establishing a man's steps to take the wrong path.] • Psalm 139:16 Your eyes saw my unformed body; ALL THE DAYS ORDAINED FOR ME WERE WRITTEN IN YOUR BOOK BEFORE ONE OF THEM CAME TO BE. • Proverbs 22:6 "Teach a youth about the way he should go; even when he is old he will not depart from it. " the list is courtesy of KZbinr "Underlings"

[@questionasker8791]

Thanks so much for putting out response videos to Craig! Especially your videos on the historicity of the resurrection have been very helpful. Although, I must say, the ten-minute-long ad-hominem attack they put out on you in another video was very convincing.

[@jimmygravitt1048]

Okay, when Christians say that free will necessarily comes with evil/suffering/sin, ask them if they think there will be free will in heaven. They will almost certainly say yes. (If they say no, then there's no logical inconsistencies) Then ask, them if they believe there will be evil/suffering/sin in heaven. They will almost certainly say no. (I cannot imagine a Christian saying yes to this question; again if they do, there is no logical inconsistency) So, if they answer how most Christians answer, it will be apparent that free will CAN exist without evil/suffering/sin.

[@taylorlibby7642]

Another great video! Thanks so much for all your hard work!!

[@jimscobie6646]

How can a god exist? Especially when it's claimed to be invisible, immaterial, and outside space/time. Unless there is an example of something else that fits the description, the only place this god can exist is within the imagination of believers.

[@subtotalaljar3620]

This actually is a good argument. I’ve always had trouble understanding both these ideas. Just have the “belief” in both without thinking hard about it. But we do hold different standards towards and ideal God for what instead should be the basic human ones we have.

[@lurch666]

The argument that god cannot create free ill without allowing suffering is crap. For us humans it's obviously impossible but if this god is ALL POWERFUL couldn't he find a way to do it. It seems he is just as limited as a human (wonder why that is????)

[@cloudsstar]

I always wonder if humans came from Noah and just noahs family was around would that not mean that noahs family had to hold every human only std/sti and parasite and then pass them around the world

[@stylis666]

Probably, but many illnesses evolved from surviving in one species to surviving in other species as well, like HIV, so god probably made sure that the species caught/magically lured by Noah had the ones that would become deadly to humans and weren't to the animal carriers. I can't say much more about it; I'm fresh out of stupid.

[@cloudsstar]

@@stylis666 im talking about the ones that can only live off humans the ones that would go extinct right now if every human on earth vanished and would happen at any point in time with humans also what about every genetic disorder thats only inherited

[@stylis666]

@@cloudsstar hahahaha eh... Well... I have bipolar disorder and I'm pretty sure that genetic disorders can't go from one existing species to another XD That _does_ explain certain things in Noah's story XD lmao

[@mrnickbig1]

God couldn't force people to do good because of free will? The Bible has many example of God FORCING people to do evil! And, I am not talking about demanding stuff like human sacrifice or putting people in "no win" situations, I am talking about direct mind control, such as hardening hearts of people, in order that they could be punished later!

[@michaelkierum42]

I literally burst out laughing when Craig asserted that we've given up on problem of evil.

[@jeffa5915]

Nowhere in the bible does it ever say we have free will. In fact in the Christian world view, everything is planned and for God's pleasure. ALL evil was designed and planned by God. Ephesians 1:11 11 All things are done according to God's plan and decision; and God chose us to be his own people in union with Christ because of his own purpose, based on what he had decided from the very beginning. Psalm 139:16 You saw me before I was born. Every day of my life was recorded in your book. Every moment was laid out before a single day had passed.

[@bengreen171]

in the name of the Marble, the Schist, and the Holy A'a.....

[@moodyrick8503]

*Easy peezy ;* Is there suffering in heaven ? _No_ Is there free will in heaven ? _Yes_ Then God can create a world with free will & no suffering, but chooses not to.

[@plasmaballin]

3:18 By "no explicit contradiction", what he means is that one is not just the negation of the other or something that directly and obviously violates the other's definition. If he knew logic 101, he would know that this is not required for two statements to contradict. There just has to be some logical proof that, if one is true, the other is not. For example, the statements "a^n+b^n=c^n", "a, b, c, and n are natural numbers", and "n>2" contradict, even though, according to Craig, there would be no "explicit contradiction".

[@BigTuk]

Did the narrator forget that God has been shown quite often to force people to choose and do certain things? He can't have that much respect for free will can he? Also there's an inherent problem with freewill in that freewill can be seen as relative. Relative to each human, each human has freewill. We act independently based on our own goals, situation, and options. But lets consider. But lets look at your computer...your computer has freewil compared to most other computers, but relative to you it has zero free will. It What I'm saying is that much like a pc user or programmer knows exactly what input to enter to make the computer perform a certain task...could not the supposedly all-knowing mastermind who engineered the human brain on the general and (according to some beliefs) instantiated level, similarly manipulate the inputs we receive to push us towards certain actions? There's a saying I was taught about Go. A novice reacts to the moves of their opponent. The Veteran anticipates the moves of their opponents. The Master guides the moves of their opponent. In short. TYop a being capable of manipulating any and every aspect of our lives and who knows intrinsically which alchemy of circumstance will bring about a given action, we're not much different than a computer or car is to us. Worse is... we would be entirely unaware of the meddling. I know to crhistians the idea that bad things are part of 'God's infinite plan' then the scary part is that removes all personal responsibility any human has for any action they take. If a person murders a hundred people, that's part of gods plan, and if its part of gods plan... did the murderer have a choice,. Is it possible to defy God's plan, thereby undoing it.. Or to put it into a more biblical perspective. If you believe that the death of jesus was prophesied ...then the question becomes.. could Judas have chosen not to betray Jesus? If he had, then that itself would have changed the path of events... We already saw clear signs of god willing to turn people's hearts towards a particular action... Same thing for Lazarus...did he die just so Jesus could perform a miracle.. better tangential question. Did Lazarus get yoinked out of heaven or hell when he was brought back? Also lets be frank, can anyone who concocts a plan that involves the holocaust, be considered a good being? I don't think so.

[@Megatron9000]

I'm actually not sure if I agree with the distraction qualm. If there is necessary suffering implicit in some positive scenarios, couldn't an all powerful god just fix that problem? To clarify, I don't think the property of suffering in a positive activity, like pain from exercise for example, becomes a good thing because it is associated with a positive outcome. If that pain was isolated it would still be pain. I think that if God existed as described in the Bible, He'd be able to change things so that even positive activities were more pleasant.

[@istvansipos9940]

I still don't get all those insan... I mean, religious people. just briefly: child cancer in a devout family. EVERY1 wants the child to get berrer. but he/she dies. the child could have been saved and every1 could have kept their free will. and if the kid died for the greater good, then I really don't understand it. an almighty dude has to kill a child to achieve a greater good? if you are almighty, you have exactly a gazillion other means to achieve the greater good.

[@adm0iii]

On the "greater good" excuse, it excuses nothing. Why does the all-powerful God need to take circuitous paths, though "lesser" suffering and evil, to get to the "greater" good? It just kicks the problem down the road.

[@robertt9342]

So is the William Craig video saying that “God” is incapable of preventing harm without violating freewill? Well that’s a limitation I didn’t think he’d admit to.

[@paulsmart4672]

I'm glad to finally see someone call out Craig's slight of hand with free will. I would add, though,.if we're talking about an *omnipotent* god, then we can logically rule out that it allows suffering to achieve some vague greater good, since by definition it has the power to bring about that greater good at any time by any means. There are no necessary steps, it can't be constrained in this way unless its not omnipotent.

[@incredulouspasta3304]

11:49 - I think this needs some clarification. The atheist (or anyone presenting the logical problem of suffering/evil) _does_ have the burden of proof to support their assertions when making an argument _against_ the existence of a god. After all, the point of Craig's video isn't to present an argument _for_ the existence of a god. It's to counter a particular argument _against_ the existence of a specific type of god. --- *The Actual Argument* --- Here are some possible formulations of the problem of evil/suffering, which we _do_ have the burden of proof to support. 1. God is able to prevent suffering. (omnipotent) 2. God is willing to prevent suffering. (Here is where Craig would object, and appeal to free will, or God's mysterious plan.) 3. Suffering exists. (empirical) 1. God is able to prevent gratuitous suffering. (omnipotent) 2. God is willing to prevent gratuitous suffering. (benevolent) 3. Gratuitous suffering exists. (Here is where Craig would object, and appeal to God's mysterious plan) Ultimately, the gratuitous nature of suffering is what is under contention. Does gratuitous suffering exist? Craig would argue that this is not provable, and would appeal to God's mysterious, unknowable plan. It is technically true that we cannot disprove the existence of such a plan. This is where the argument switches from a purely logical argument to a probabilistic argument. It is in this context that the burden of proof shifts back to Craig to demonstrate how probable it is that a benevolent/omnipotent/omniscient god would create a plan involving hurricanes, malaria, cancer, etc. --- *Origin of Evil* --- Or you can appeal to the origin of evil/suffering, rather than just God's ability to prevent it: 1. God created the universe and everything in it. 2. God cannot create evil or suffering. (benevolent) 3. The universe contains suffering. This argument is immune to the "mysterious plan" defense. Objections will likely involve appeals to free will. Those objections can be dismantled as well though, by showing that free-will is not compatible with the common characteristics associated with the Christian god. Or just appeal to suffering that obviously has nothing to do with free will: 1. God created the universe and everything in it. 2. God cannot create evil or suffering. (benevolent) 3. The universe contains suffering caused by natural disasters/diseases. --- *Countering Free Will* --- As you said, free will is usually a red-herring in these arguments. That being said, it _is_ rather easy to show that free will doesn't exist, assuming an omniscient, omnipotent, creator god: 1. If God is omniscient, then he knows what will happen. 2. If God is the creator of everything, then he created everything knowing what would happen. 3. If God is omnipotent, then he could have created things differently such that events would turn out differently. Therefore, God specifically chose how things would turn out at the start of creation. This precludes free will.

[@neil7244]

Where is the sense in allowing suffering for the greater good, when speaking about children in Africa, with aids, or cancer, or any real form of destruction of innocent children...... How is that for the greater good? How can any God claiming to I be infinitely loving and good and powerful .......

[@neil7244]

@@lunaleavesme "there is no way to the father except through me" SO! God says you don't know my little home boy and don't accept him as your supreme God then you can burn and suffer for ever and ever until the end of eternity...... But i love you...... Vast majority of those children will never been given the opportunity to hear the "word of God" there for " oh you were born somewhere that you suffer and die from aids, cancer, famine, and drought, none of my chosen people got around to try and save your soul because you were born in an inhospitable place, oh, that's to bad, you didnt know Christ, Burn in hell you vile sinner" and that pretty much somes up why I turned from the church, that's when I found science and logic at the tender old age of 12. Paulogia! Atheist Canadian former Christians are far too outnumbered, we may not be in the US but there is far too much negativity thrown at us. Thank you for being an outlet of free logical thought and controversial topics within the Bible.

[@neil7244]

@@lunaleavesme your place as a woman, is where ever YOU damb well say it is until YOU decide its somewhere else. A religion of hate yes, not all of them are bad, but the fundamentals of love Thy neighbour and do unto others is far too often said with "unless they are gay then stone them" right at the end.

[@graey24601]

The free will argument is simply stupid. Even if I were to assume that an all powerful god created me and wanted me to have free will there are already limits on my free will in the absolute sense. There are more things I cannot imagine or choose (even if we set aside what I can actually attempt which is further limited) than things I can choose. There is no reason for humans to be limited in this way if they were created by an unlimited being. We could have been unlimited in our imagination and desires, and thus in our will. We're not. Since our free will is already limited, why not limit it in regards to harm or "evil"? Theists who think that free will is an answer for the question of evil demonstrate how shallow their thinking is and the fact that they have no conception of what it would mean for a being to be all knowing and all powerful. They think that their "all powerful" god needs to allow suffering to reach a greater good? Way to place human-level limitations on your creator deity. An all powerful and all knowing deity can not only achieve whatever its goals are without effort, it can achieve them in any way it sees fit.

[@jamesdownard1510]

Munching popcorn while watching the Holocaust ... now there's a first-rate & concise image to sum up the nature of this problem. Bravo :)

[@BroNumsi]

How can a loving god value an evil man's free will over the well being of innocent victims? How can the free will of a sadistic murderer be more important than the tortured and starved woman in his basement? How can the free will of the trafficker be more important than the child sold to pedophile rapists as a sex toy? These apologetics make me sick.

[@chrisbay6672]

Craig’s argument about free will is so aggravating. God intervenes CONSTANTLY in their bible and yet intervening in the life of a child with leukemia or a girl sold into sex slavery is somehow violating fee will. They want to have an all powerful god while at the same time being so weak that he just can’t stop all the horrible things in the world. None of this even starts to mention all the atrocities that god participated in, condoned, and commanded in their “god breathed” and “‘morally perfect” book.

[@DiFF7Skyns]

I'm sorry, but the arguments presented in this video are more emotional than logical. Moreover, in the second part of the video, going to the end, you emerge the old question of the need for an extraordinary explanation for the existence of God, which has nothing to do with the question you should deal with: logical incompatibility between God and suffering.

[@DiFF7Skyns]

​@• I'm sorry, but I don't see that way. The whole point of the argument is to show that if you take God out of the equation, you'll end up with neither good or evil (there's no such thing in the universe). Even in order to say that "God is evil", or "If God has any reason at all to allow evil, then he’s not good" you must evoke God (good) to make the argument. Lewis once said that good and evil are not like two antagonistic forces that keep the balance (as we say 'order and chaos'). But that's not how the argument deals with the problem of evil. The point is: The Good is the standard, the evil is just the deviation of good. Even in order to evil exists, the good MUST exists. So, the conclusion is: there's no inconsistency between the existence of evil and the existence of God. They're not mutually exclusive.

[@DiFF7Skyns]

@• Like I said, to begin with, to assume something is evil (even God), you must assume there is good. If there is no God, you have neither. Period. Again, for the last time. The existence of evil is not inconsistency with the existence of God, as a standard for good. Read my last comment again, slowly, you'll understand. Otherwise, there's nothing else to discuss. Oh, and btw, don't come up with the 'reductio ad absurdum' talk. You're clearly not familiar with this fallacy. The argument never intended to show that the opposite of the conclusion 'God exists', which is 'God doesn't exist', leads to a contradiction. It just states that, once you have 'evil', you must have good. THAT 'good', Christians call it God. You can call it whatever you want, if you don't like the word "God". But that's the point. You're accusing God to being "evil"? You're just evoking His existence. Excuse me.

[@DenisLoubet]

If the god can create any world it wants, and the god knows everything that will happen in that world, then the god -- by definition -- creates everything that happens in that world. The act of creation coerces all events in that world. In other words, everything that happens in that world is included in the phrase "world" when talking about the divine creation of that world. The world, and everything that happens in it, is a package deal.

[@jamescallen984]

Another counter I have to the free will argument that Mr. Craig presents is the concept of heaven. Heaven has free will yet it does not have evil, that means god can create a world that has no evil yet has free will. So why is there evil on Earth.

[@pdoylemi]

We have to allow suffering to achieve a greater good because we are not omnipotent - so this argument denies god's omnipotence and proves the point. Having to accept some bad to achieve a greater good is a limitation that does not apply to omnipotent beings.

[@paulwilliamson6660]

That policeman views his job as to arrest criminals. He allowed the murder and got an easy win.

[@jhill4874]

I love Paulogia, but WLC's assumptive logic drives me as crazy as listening to flat Earthers.

[@thegeneralscall]

I can see one possible argument where god and suffer can both exist. "God allows suffering, because suffering is an additional aspect of life that develops experiences and character in people, with which good will eventually derive from." There are a few problems with this I see such as the inability to determine if the ultimate outcome will be 'good' or 'bad' since we're speaking about morals and morals are subjective based on ones upbringing and experiences and are not derived from god. There's also the fact that this logic assumes that humans do not possess free will, but we are just merely a part of a incomprehensibly large domino effect stretching back to the creation of the universe. Now a god of infinite knowledge could see exactly how each domino, each atom, needs to go and the infinite power to cause the big bang in a manner that would fall perfectly into place, so that by the end, the greatest amount of good would be created. Would this god be the god of the bible? Maybe, though said god would of, apparently, intentionally made himself out to be stupid and illogical in the book of the Bible as part of some long, incomprehensible plan (#justasplanned)

[@DarkAlkaiser]

So, they don't believe in genesis now? Eden was a world where everyone was being forced to be good XD

[@axer3515]

I am a scriber, but I don't get notice beforehand. WHY??

[@frankwhelan1715]

Just watched a religious program (on Irish tv) about people and bad things that had happened to them, this guy was in motor accident in which his wife and one of his daughters was killed and the other daughter paralysed, but he thanked god for having saved HIM , but was god finished bestowing his favours on him by saving him in an accident that had wiped out most of his family? No way, a year or so later god arranged for him to meet this beautiful women (on holiday) who became his second wife .

[@YY4Me133]

Hey, that sounds like Job. Did his god give him replacement kids, too?

[@myoneblackfriend3151]

David’s last name can be a Bachelor. That way, he can be both married and a Bachelor.

[@brandonvanscoycloud6469]

A rock has done more good in the world than the supposed god of the Bible has.

[@royromano9792]

I mean, even if you do bring free will into it. The Western religions still preach gods omnipotents and omnipresence. Therefore, free will does not exist, because all is known until end time…

[@snooganslestat2030]

Just one of the nonsensical things in this brand of Christianity

[@pwoods100]

Did William Lane Craig ever talk about how freewill causes natural disasters? Yeah.......that's what I thought.

[@stylis666]

Well, I got this figured out. If anal sex doesn't cause earthquakes, you're doing it wrong :p

[@billyskyline570]

To be specific Braxton Hunters latest response video defending WLC against one of yours. We love you Paul!

[@Oswlek]

That's a treat, my two favorite counterapologists doing a collab. Thanks, guys The funny thing is, the arguments are even worse than you imply. For instance, I could grant the free will misdirection and it still doesn't get Craig anywhere. I can't shoot death rays out of my eyes, so didn't god limit my freedom to make that choice? Why not just make a similar inability to murder one another? What about god himself, is his lack of desire to commit evil a limitation of his free will? If not, why not just give us that version of free will? I can make a similar concession with "suffering" and it leads to the same result. Yes, sometimes suffering can be motivating, but could god have inspired the same progress without the suffering? If so, then what purpose does the suffering have? Imagine humanity discovered an equally effective (and equally expensive) immunization process that, instead of needle pricks and swelling, the only side effect is feeling like you just got a luxurious full body massage. Would anyone with both options available ever choose the shot? For their children? What does it say about god that he does choose the shot? Craig is so pathetic that you can disregard entire refutations of his arguments and it's still trivially easy to disprove them.

[@michaelsommers2356]

We put up with going to the dentist because we are not omnipotent.

[@stylis666]

On the bright side though, we're evidently not made in the image of a completely impotent god who does precisely nothing. On the brighter side, thanks to our lack of omnipotence it doesn't matter if the universe is perfectly deterministic, partly or not at all for us to necessarily have freedom of choice :) Well, assuming we are intelligent enough to gather information so we _can_ choose... If you don't know you have coffee you can't choose to have it or not. If you don't know what dying is or what the other punishments are for not listening to someone telling you to not eat the fruit of one specific tree, you can't be expected to make an informed choice or be held accountable for the choice and it's definitely unreasonable to punish everyone who isn't even born yet for a choice they couldn't possibly know about, let alone make.

[@dylanw.4533]

I’ve always heard this argument with “suffering” replaced with “evil”. Suffering is necessary, and happens due to natural events, but evil is not in any way necessary.

[@stylis666]

I disagree. If there was a god, then evil was unnecessary, but I do think that there are valuable lessons to be learned and that it might be possible that, in this universe, it's necessary for evil to occur before we learn how to avoid it. For instance, you could make fictional stories about how evil empires might arise, but would literally everyone, or at least enough people learn from that how to recognize and stop it from happening? I could be wrong and in this case I would love nothing more than to be completely wrong, but I think we need our violent past as an example. It seems to me that as soon as a generation forgets its past, it repeats in similarly deadly ways. Again, I hope wholeheartedly to be wrong.

[@franktherealist481]

@@stylis666 it's called being human... the evil thing, I mean. People will be people. If they hurt some one and we as a society have empathy, evil will be addressed, as it always has. Let's take Hitler and the cathilic church at the time. The catholic church really stepped in it with him. They may not have condoned his actions out right but they did allow an audience with him, which solidified Hitler in his own mind. Any way, that's just my take on what I know on that.

[@MrCrimsonbolt]

I can't understand why you two don't have more subscribers. The two best atheist channels on youtube, among many good ones

[@authenticallysuperficial9874]

Great explanations, thanks staticface

[@gbbereal]

That's Zod!😉

[@moonled]

Evil and suffering are what we'd expect in a universe formed by natural laws.

[@joecoolioness6399]

Bad behavior is a better term for evil. Evil to me has to have a meddling entity behind it.

[@Venaloid]

Is there free will in Heaven? Would that be logically impossible? Could it BE Heaven if people have free will? Would God be happy with Heaven either way?

[@jmaniak1]

So god doesn't interfere with free will? What about Pharoah?

[@shriggs55]

" So then,he has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy and he hardens whom he wants to harden."(Rom.9:18)

[@tonydarcy1606]

1 ) Any evil that begins to exist has a cause. 2) Evils do exist and have a cause. 3) Therefore religions are a cause of evils.

[@Tovec8]

Invalid argument.

[@tonydarcy1606]

@@Tovec8 Aye indeed ! But it makes more sense than WLC's drivel !

[@AdamKlownzinger]

Why would it even be the case that, assuming we actually have free will under an all knowing all powerful god as the theists claim (I don’t believe so but that is not the point), the only alternative to good choices are awful ones? An all powerful all knowing God could have created a universe where all possible choices do not result in suffering, or at least produce a set of outcomes where the combination of good outcomes outweighs the combination of bad outcomes. When we decide what to eat for dinner, we are, assuming we’re not going out of our way to hypothetically consider bad and harmful theoretical options, deciding between a list of different options, some of them more good, some of them less good, but all generally more beneficial than not. So not only is it theoretically possible to maintain free will without suffering, but IN THIS VERY SAME WORLD that theists assert we have free will in, there are sets of choices we all make wherein that is the case.

[@LouisGedo]

*Facts And Logic Destroy Theist Nonsense Every Time*

[@LouisGedo]

@@Mikemenn Place this character * (asterisk) directly in front and behind (no spaces) the text you want bolded.

[@barbiquearea]

3:06 Except David can be married and still have the last name Bachelor.

[@Thoron_of_Neto]

Damnit... You've cracked it! How can we atheists NOT be Christian's now!! Haha