Suffering and Evil 2: Probability (William Lane Craig Edition) (feat. Prophet of Zod)

[@Thrawnmulus]

Everytime I hear "reasons" why god lets evil exist I just hear "he beats me because he loves me"

[@KneedleKnees]

Well said, Thrawn. Give Pellaeon my best.

[@nicolasandre9886]

That sums it up pretty neatly.

[@MissJackietheLakester]

I've once heard a saying that the people who are mad at you the most love you the most. Something like that, I think. That was back in elementary or middle school for me.

[@74810Eric]

sometimes i hear they say "hit me harder daddy". Not even joking that much. It seems like some kind of stockholm syndrome.

He made us in such a way that he would have good reason to treat us like shit. Never forget the time he lost his temper and drowned everyone and everything. Noah was 500 years old when told of the upcoming flood and was 600 when he finished the ark. What kind of God holds a rage for 100 years? How can anyone find any logic in believing this crap?

[@shaneduncan4846]

I heard; “If we had better arguments, you would accept our position. So stop denying our position. You never know how much better our arguments could be.” Additionally, they did say “God attempts to bring over as many people as he CAN.” Which suggests limitations to power.

[@BluePhoenix_]

Yeah, like... If he was all powerful, he should have the capabilities to make everyone believe in him, show that he really IS. This shouldn't be any problem and doesn't conflict with free will, because i can still choose to deny him. But their position is just p1ss poor.

[@mortenolsen838]

'I didn't feel like I had all of my dimensions intact.' Damn you. You made me spew my coffee.

[@Griexxt]

The more amazing (in their view) they make the afterlife sound, the less sense this life makes.

[@krazer9515]

Child born with horrible defects, living for a short while in suffering, dies and heads to heaven. Child: God why did you allow me to suffer so? God: Well little Timmy, in 20 years a faithful woman will pray to find her perfect husband. What I needed was to make sure that your parents, in sorrow and despair, break up. Your father needs to slowly devolve into alcoholism and the day the faithful woman prays, your father will crash his car into a tree, delaying the woman's morning commute for an hour causing her to bump into her soulmate. Child: And this required all this tragedy? God: Of course. How else can I answer prayers when humans have free will? Child:.... You are a monster. God: Not to my followers. Now to Hell with you Timmy for not loving me enough despite my direct involvement in your short, and now eternal, suffering. I have to starve millions to death in a third world country so I can set up a sequence of events to help someone get their dream job in 15 years.

[@dragonhealer7588]

Krazer Well played!

[@JamesRichardWiley]

Simply saying "I don't know" and "this life is what it is" would at least free the brain from becoming entangled in biblical contradictions.

[@jwsanders1214]

Everything that Jesus said would happen before his return is happening , Trust Jesus and be saved from the wrath to come !

[@krazer9515]

@@jwsanders1214 sounds like your Jesus is a dickhead mafia boss trying to sell me "protection"

[@brigidscaldron]

Well said!!!

[@petehjr1]

Great an eternity with a passive aggressive narcasist... Sign me up.

[@stylis666]

You joke about that and I like it, but at the same time I'm horrified for the billions that don't say that as a joke but actively choose that over the humanity they rely on day in day out. When I see an execution device on a necklace, my trust in them is lost. If you're in the trenches with them, they'd sell you out to save their own skin as they have shown they do. Of course there's a chance they're religious because they're brought up in it and have no clue about their religion and have perfectly good morals, but I can't count on that and does it really make anything any better to know they turn their backs on honesty and humanity for tradition's sake instead of trying to make the world a better place and think critically?

[@l0_0l45]

@@stylis666 Well said bro.

[@stylis666]

@anti-anti-intellectual x I'm sorry to hear that these things are reality for you and for your mother. Your mom doesn't see what she's doing to herself and how that affects people around her, so I guess ignorance is a bit blissful. It's so easy to get stuck in bad habits and blind ourselves from what we're doing. I wish we had a way to make people see, but all we can really do is showing them and hope they'll figure it out. But if I you'll allow some unsolicited advice, that is a good method: you can perhaps try and take examples from outside your circles that show the same issues you see with your mother and talk about them with her in the hopes she'll at least learn to see the damage religion does for them. It's much easier to see faults and lower our defences and biases when looking from a distance, of which I'm often enough harshly reminded when I explain to people how to think critically and why it's so important and then fuck it up myself and forward some dumb shit over whatsapp that I didn't double check because "it sounded plausible". -_-

[@stylis666]

@anti-anti-intellectual x Yeah, at that age, I think she's earned her fantasy. I'm glad you dismiss my, in this case, bad advice for good reasons. My mom is 67 and she hates logic as well, but she's not religious and basically thinks god is a dick and she would only give a shit if it exists if she can punish and kill it. She does believe that spirits are a thing because of coincidences in and around her home. When I try to trick her into thinking logically I steer clear from spirits because she's emotionally invested in them. Her mom and dad survived WWII in Japanese camps and came home with stories about voodoo and my mom's uncle was said to float tables in private and his children watching through the keyhole. A lot of hearsay stacked on hearsay but ingrained in the entire family and many of the so called witnesses are now deceased. God is an easy target for me then to explain to my mom how and when(which is always...) religion is degrading to our thinking and ability and reliability to come to conclusions. Since she hates logic, I keep things super simple and just ask her one question each time and then let it go immediately when she responds emotionally instead of rationally. A friend of hers has had a thyroid issue for years that isn't really a big deal and that friend rather trusts in homeopathy than in doctors and after treatment didn't do anything the doctor told her that it would either go away of stay a part of her life. Not content with that answer she tried homeopathy and her problem went away and the doctor told her they had no good answer for that (even though they knew and told her that statistically it's proven to be a very real and common possibility). Understandably her confirmation bias told her it was irrefutable evidence that touching her TV three times, on Friday night 20.00 while standing on one leg caused the incurable disease to miraculously vanish. Oh, wait, no. She took the starch pills with the sugar coating and therefor concluded that the pills caused it. So I asked my mom if touching the TV three times on a Friday night curing an illness that we know can go away on its own could logically be concluded to be the cause if those two happened in that order. She has at least acknowledge rationally that I'm correct in suggesting that we can't rely on anecdote and coincidence to tell us what causes what, but she loves saying that if it works for someone, it works, even though, and I do hope you saw that, we have just established that we don't and can't know if it worked. In the case of homeopathy, it's very well established that it has no more effect than placebos and I assumed that my mom means that it works as a placebo and she said that she did and that she's fine with that and I would be too, if her friend acknowledged it was most likely nothing more than a placebo and didn't stop going to her doctor and relied solely on her placebos. My mom acknowledged that replacing treatment with placebos can be deadly and because it often is not, she's fine with it... Which basically means that she willfully ignores the millions of deaths that result from the cultural acceptance of relying on heuristics and logical fallacies because sometimes it's not deadly and it seems to help. I think that working a little harder and replacing heuristics and logical fallacies with rational and critical thinking can become the new habit and a much more sustainable one that doesn't require fooling yourself and rationalizing things (which is a damning habit for our minds to begin with) and that we should incorporate it into our societies, if not for ourselves, then to make life better for our children who have nothing to deserve being saddled with our bad habits and the consequent harmful results that are still culturally accepted. Instead of overwhelming her with that and knowing with almost 100% certainty she will close her eyes and ears when I allow myself to rant, I gently go back to religion and drop some crumbs here and there, hoping it will inspire her to think and it does. She's not yet letting go of her spirits and she sees no need to refute homeopathy as long as her friend has no serious medical condition she refuses to let a doctor treat, but she is now more involved in the thinking of a religious friend of hers who seems to not believe a god exists, but she still enjoys traditions like inspiring sermons and singing on televised church services and she fears hell and works in her garden on Sundays regardless and figures that god has to be okay with that because otherwise he's a stupid dick who discourages relaxing your mind and being in touch with nature, which are two very healthy things. She disagrees with her church a lot. My mom used to think the good outweigh the bad and her religious friend tells her stories about how church molded her life and her child baring and she now has grand children who are doing a million times better without god. My mom still doesn't see the harm in accepting religion; that it perpetuates the acceptance of the harms that are her reasons for despising religions and gods. I'm not sure if she ever will, but she deeply cares about her friend's fear of god and hell and admires her spirit to go her own way regardless of those fears. That friend is in her 80's, so I'm not gonna tell her she's wrong either. I just tell her she's right to keep her back straight and that if a good god exists, it will be fine with her doing her things and otherwise that god is not good and not worth spending time on. I'm just super glad that critical thinking is slowly becoming the new norm and that it's incorporated in societies almost globally thanks to the internet. I think that my mom's religious friend is a good example of how (most) people are inherently loving and that enough of them long for sincerity enough to risk hell and death for. Those things will inevitably lead to a more honest and critically thinking society as well as a more free and psychologically healthy one. Keeping the status quo at the cost of the minds and bodies of our fellow humans is no longer accepted and is therefor not sustainable and we can't teach that to our children as virtuous anymore and pretend it's harmless. Sincere and critical thinking are and always will be sustainable and are easy and helpful to teach to our children just by setting an example.

[@LividCreature]

@@stylis666 it’s almost like, we need a platform to push back on infallible narcissism that people can attribute to “but muh god will forgive me”

[@atonick6564]

To quote Steven Fry “ a loving god and bone cancer in children , don’t be ridiculous “

[@RobGravelle]

The end.

[@rexdalit3504]

Rob Gravelle Do you actually imagine there is no response to Fry? Really? [This is purely rhetorical: I know that you know better than this. Think hard.]

[@kylerichardson1242]

@@rexdalit3504 What is the response, pray tell? I have never heard anyone explain why an all-loving god allows unnecessary suffering (bone cancer in children). I don't think it can be done. Am I wrong?

[@philipfarnam6013]

Theodicean fools have been trying explain it for centuries. It remains Christianty's toughest nut. (Well, that and how virgins give birth and dead people come alive again.)

[@macroman52]

@@rexdalit3504 We would rather you exposed the way you think by giving us your answer to Fry. P.S. memo to anyone trying to cure cancer in children - God has his reasons and it's not for you to thwart him. Wait! I know, maybe the purpose of the cancer is to give some people something uplifting to do by trying to cure it. Perhaps, the suffering of the victims is far outweighed by the thrill of those trying to cure it.

[@KeithCooper-Albuquerque]

Thanks Paul for another great collaboration with Prophet of Zod! You two work well together!

[@dragonhealer7588]

Sorry God, we have to let you go. Your performance is substandard, and we have lost patience.

[@yadabub]

That's breaking the rules. You're supposed to suffer up until the point you can't take anymore. Then God will graciously allow you to die after an unspecified period of time and you'll be allowed to worship him forever. All so that God's fallen angels will see you doing it before he destroys them. Meaning and purpose. lol

[@stylis666]

@@yadabub Exactly, Psalm I don't give a fuck: who the shit cares, clearly says god isn't slow and you're just being impatient. Just suffer a little longer and Jesus will come and kill everyone for you to dance on before creating paradise where everyone who has ever lived will be revived and those who then still refuse to kiss god's ass will be annihilated forever. Or at least that's pretty much what Jehova's Witnesses believe and to be honest, I'd like that. If their god exists we need to kill it and if we can't, we're objectively better off not existing. I'm alive and free to love and live because millions of people risked or gave their lives for freedom and well being. I'm not going to insult them by reversing that when a god reveals itself. It's going down or I'll die trying to fucking kill it.

[@YY4Me133]

@@stylis666 🤣

[@dragonhealer7588]

@@stylis666 I've got your back when that time comes 😁

[@Redhunteur2]

POZ: Does this guy know how much his explanation sounds like an abusive relationship? Me: They never do.

[@Ponera-Sama]

"The whole point of human history is that God, having given us free will, is drawing as many people as He can into His unending kingdom." This just loops us back to a slightly different version of the original argument. If God wants to bring as many people as He can into His "unending kingdom", and God is all-powerful, then "as many people as He can" means all people, and since not all people "know" God, then either God's goal is not to get humans to know Him, or he is not all-powerful.

[@jwsanders1214]

Not every one will accept His free gift of salvation . If you know about Jesus love and reject it , you get a different judgement than someone who never heard about Jesus

[@brantheilman8178]

@@jwsanders1214 ​ ​ But that doesn't make sense. If Jesus genuinely wants us to know him and accept his salvation, how it it possible for there to be anyone who never heard of him? Why would they be judged for that mistake at all? And if they can avoid judgement for not having accepted salivation, why should those who heard of him but weren't convinced he is real be punished for the all knowing and all powerful creator of the universe's failure to convince them? When the mafia demands protection money from small business owners, we don't say they deserved to have their shop ransacked for not accepting the don's generous offer of salvation. We call it a crime. How is "accept me or burn forever in hell" any different?

[@MrDanAng1]

@@jwsanders1214 So if you don't know about Jesus, then you are judged by your character and deeds. If you DO know about Jesus, you are judged by how gullible you are. How the f**k does Jesus make anything better? Knowing about Jesus make everything WORSE in this scenario! The absolute best thing any christian can do is burn his Bible and SHUT UP. According to their own beliefs, they are sending decent, thinking people to hell and populate heaven with gullible dickheads!

[@derekmizer6293]

@@stinkypanda9628 god is a dick. There are more people in HELL than heaven

[@jwsanders1214]

@@stinkypanda9628 You are already on the road to Hell , blindly following Satan to destruction in your rebellion . Hell wasn't created for God's children , but for The Devil and his Angels Matthew 25:41. Jesus came to offer you Salvation in the place of destruction , He didn't come to condemn you , but to save you from your own bad choices . Jesus took the cup of The Wrath of God that was rightfully yours and mine to drink , and in its place he offers you a fountain of Living Water .

[@erisculpepper8867]

So many times, I've heard that God doesn't "cause" bad things to happen but he "allows" them to occur to show us how much he loves us. For me, that would be like a man who allows his wife to drive a car with faulty brakes. On the way work, she has an accident which puts her in hospital. With her flat on her back, the husband nurses her back to health. His attention to her concentrates her attention solely on the husband. In a moment of "revelation", she thanks him for allowing the accident to happen because it helps her see how much he "truly" loves her. But in fact, that is an abusive / toxic relationship. On the notion of the life to come after all this suffering for Christ... We were taught that we'll spend eternity fellowshipping with friends and family who have gone on before. But, as I understand it, we would spend eternity worshiping God: singing his praises "24/7". Being a jealous God, he would not want us to think on any other being but him: which makes him narcissistic. This also brings me back to a question I have that goes back to the very beginning: God, being omnipotent, knew from the beginning how things would turn out in the end. So way do it? What is the purpose of creating something that you know you're going to utterly destroy? We are taught that God did not create evil. But if he created "all that is" (the angles, the universe, sun, moon, stars, earth...etc) then nothing came into being on its own. If he is the one who created the angels, that would have to include Lucifer (the "evil" one). Not one bit of this god thing makes any sense to me anymore. (I do hope this all makes sense. I'm horrible at writing comments to something like this)

[@kmarklandes8630]

Yeah two of my favorites! Prophet of Zod and Paulogia!

[@blvalverde]

"Knowing god is the ultimate good." That is an enormous claim. I don't think they completely understand how good works. if knowing god is real is the greatest good, god would be morally obligated to show himself to the world in a manner that is impossible to any reasonable person to disregard. Miracles should be a daily occurrence, angels should still bring messages, saints should be all around, bushes on fire should still talk, etc. To not do so is to let those who never know god never fully know good. An immoral act. God is supposedly moral, is he not?

[@johnhiggs325]

S Gloobal. Please tell me that you are being sarcastic. Please!

[@blvalverde]

@S Gloobal I follow a guy that makes videos about dwarfs, elves, and goblins, do those exist? God is a subject worthy of discussion because of the people that believe in him are real and humans constantly discuss belief. Communists and capitalists, parliamentarians and republicans, etc. If people can discuss profit motive or moral motives why not the motive behind a christian's actions, his belief in god?

[@WhiteScorpio2]

@S Gloobal "all the evidence we have shows he must exist" Name fucking one.

[@kathryngeeslin9509]

@S Gloobal He constantly makes videos on humans who want to push their beliefs about a god and supposed preferences of that god on other humans; it is rather difficult to disbelieve in our fellow humans, and very difficult to survive under some of their rules. Believing in idiots is not the same as believing in what idiots claim to believe. People trying to force their god beliefs on others are very real whether or not their god is real.

[@WhiteScorpio2]

@S Gloobal What do you mean by that? Do you know the origins of life? How? How does it show that God must exist?

[@Thrawnmulus]

I'm a simple man, I see a cartoon Canadian, I like.

[@phantomstarsx9343]

I'll be honest, I fangirled a bit when I saw Zod on here. I've binged alot of his videos for whatever reason I find his demeanor extremely calming and enjoyable.

[@TheLuckySpades]

He has Paulogia's demeanor and compassion and Logicked's look, that's an instant win

[@phantomstarsx9343]

@@TheLuckySpades fair enough. I have recently started watching both, but ended up watching Zod first. Not to mention Zods manner of speaking is pleasant to listen to, for me anyway.

[@TheLuckySpades]

@@phantomstarsx9343it's definitely great, I binged a lot last month after discovering him through part 1 of this video The atheist/skeptic community here on youtube has improved greatly since I stopped watching years ago

[@phantomstarsx9343]

@@TheLuckySpades I actually got introduced into the community through Mr. Athiest. I saw a video discussing Mormonism and got curious. I binged his videos and then starting seeing him talk about certain channels like girl defined... I grew up Christian and didnt even know "those" kinds of Christian's were like... still a thing. Like even my church growing up wasnt that bad. Then I think it was the jehovah's witnesses cartoons, TellTale covered them too, so I watched him a bit and it just branched from there. Zod, logicked, viced rhino.. and I'll be honest I like telltale but I cant binge his videos. I dont want him very often, I like him dont get me wrong, and he covers some odd stuff just something about it, ya know? I have a few youtubers I can only watch in a certain mood.

[@TheLuckySpades]

@@phantomstarsx9343 that's similar to how I rediscovered them, with a different starting point (I went from logicked and followed the collabs mainly) I've found that Paul, Zod and VR are the ones I can listen to best, Logicked is entertaining, but the type of crazy he's been hunting the last year I can't binge I also feel similar about Telltale, I think I narrowed it down to his train of thought style of presentation, because the material, background and voice are great I burn out quickly on his stuff

[@MrDanAng1]

6:38 "It's probable god exist, he's just a douchebag. But he isn't really, because... faith." Jepp, good work! 2000 years of thinking and this is the best argument against evil?

[@stylis666]

Yep and they still haven't shown to be possible. Logically not impossible doesn't equal possible. Logically I can have time traveled and stolen your wallet from yesterday, creating a new time line before coming back here where you're not missing your wallet. I would've preferred it if you had any cash... Next time I'm traveling back to a time when people still have stacks of cash in their wallet. You can't conclude it is probable or improbable that that has happened because if it's impossible, there is no probability. Probability for something you haven't shown possible is as nonsensical as dividing by zero. So it's not probable or improbable that a god exists, it's a nonsense claim until the possibility has been shown. Claiming a god exists is a nonsense claim until it has been shown to. And as far as we know, nothing godlike can exist without a brain and a pre-existing universe to live in. Logically, something conscious can exist outside spacetime, but practically we have no evidence that it's possible. Logically, fairies might be influencing your dreams to affect the future, but practically we have no evidence that it's possible and we simply don't have infinite time to consider all infinite versions of all infinite logical possibilities as physically possible and a logically thinking mind filters out nonsense and focuses on reality, which is why m example uses things that are mathematically and physically possible, except for being aware of reversing entropy and changing things, creating new time lines, but that's at least already existing in fiction, because any other example would have been rejected as not shown to be possible, as it should, just like claims of gods should.

[@JamesRichardWiley]

This argument over "god" has been going on for thousands of years. You would think a loving god would make an appearance. But he won't.

[@cygnustsp]

9:00 i've been done pursuing happiness for a long time. Hitchens was once asked if he was happy, and he said no id use words like content, satisfied. Happiness is an illusion and a delusion. Why am i so important in the grand scheme of existence that i'm supposed to be happy or that some other entity is obligated to make me happy? I just go about my business trying to do the right or best thing, and if i screw it up that's ok, might be embarrassing or detrimental, but it's not going to keep me up at night. Well, not every night anyway.

[@TheBastius]

In order for a believer in the omni-god (omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, omnipresent) to solve the problem of evil, there are three options to choose from: - denying there is evil (everything as part of the plan of God / everything in accordance with the will of God)* - denying at least one of the omni-attributes - denying this god's existence as a whole * If God is personified goodness, then there couldn't be a 'higher reason' or a 'greater good' for God to allow the evil. Everything would be good as a result of merely being allowed to happen by God. But more interesting: Denying there is evil flies in the face of the moral argument for God because saying something is 'objectively evil' denies there could be a good reason beyond it that justifies it.

[@Oswlek]

There is a 4th option: that suffering is good. Not because of the good it can prompt - apologists presumably concede god could have accomplished the same thing without the suffering - but that at least some suffering is good in and of itself. Of course, this leads to a host of other questions. Since consequences are irrelevant, how do you discern between good and bad suffering? Even if you fall into a tautology (suffering inflicted by god is good, any other source is bad), doesn't this mean that some things have to be against god's plan? As you say, if it's all part of the divine plan, then all suffering must be good. I don't envy the person who tries to make this loser of an argument, but I'd admire that they are finally trying to address the question honestly.

[@eccentriastes6273]

8:46 Atheist: Why would a loving God allow children to be eaten alive by botflies? Theist: OH SO YOU JUST WANT EVERYTHING TO BE PERFECT ALL THE TIME? ENTITLED MUCH? In all seriousness, responding to the problem of suffering by just trivializing all suffering in the world really pisses me off. I understanding it's a defense mechanism to protect the theist's precious beliefs and they wouldn't do it in another context, but it's still pretty revolting.

[@MartinJames389]

"You will eat, bye and bye In that glorious land above the sky Work and pray, live on hay You'll get pie in the sky when you die THAT'S A LIE!" (Joe Hill, 1911)

[@CTCTraining1]

Great teamwork guys, many thanks for another excellent video.

[@Mostlyharmless1985]

“God can create a paradise with no suffering or evil in heaven, where all your needs and desires are attended to, but he can’t do it on Earth, because...reasons. But he can do anything. He just doesn’t feel like it, or he’ll get around to it...eventually...soon, promise! Did we mention the church needs your money?”

[@jkkilcullen]

Thanks, guys, for collaborating! You are my two favorite religious sceptics! BTW, I am sure you both caught WLC's refutation of free will when he says, "God on the other hand sees every detail of history from beginning to end and orders it through people's free decisions and actions." Of course he does, so where in fact is free will? One last quick point. It's not the suffering alone that I find so damaging to the argument for a loving god. It's that God likes to play favorites. I work as an ICU doctor, where I help some nasty bastard who beats his wife survive his third drug overdose, yet can only watch helplessly as a devout mother of three young kids dies of cancer. And thank you both for calling WLC out on the happiness point and all the many sly tricks he seems to so desperately need to make his arguments sound convincing.

[@seraphonica]

theist backed into a corner by their own statements: "who are we to know the mind of god?" the same theist, a few minutes before: "let me tell you exactly what god thinks."

[@MrDanAng1]

12:36 Oh, confession time! Twenty years ago, I really LOVED C.S. Lewis apologetics and found them overwhelmingly convincing! He was THE christian hero to me. The only thing about it that make me proud in any way now is how much my critical thinking skills have grown with time. And I still don't think my critical thinking skills is much too be proud of to this day, I'm still caught myself accepting the crappiest arguments for things, again and again, but I'm going in the right direction! 😁👍

[@AJenbo]

Two of my favorite channels, Yay

[@ericmishima]

7:49 "I had Josh McDowell do this very thing to my face" I had paused to tell the kids something and when I hit play I heard that sentence and was very confused. :)

[@Oswlek]

LOL!

[@ObjectivelyDan]

Zod being in this video makes the probability of it being good go up a lot higher.

[@MirandolinaAmaldin]

Yay! I've been looking forward to this ^_^

[@mutalemwananshiku4098]

14:43 so is jesus suffering not a big deal since it was only temporary.

[@SonOfTheDawn515]

Right? So he didn't even "die four our sins." He just took an awesome three day slumber.

[@nicolasandre9886]

@@SonOfTheDawn515 : and if Jesus paid for all humanity's sins in a three days crucifixion, how many sins the sufferings of the rest of human beings since they started existing could buy?

[@SonOfTheDawn515]

@@nicolasandre9886 Plus, why not "sin" since the alleged jesus paid for them? I mean, would be a waste otherwise.

[@nicolasandre9886]

@@SonOfTheDawn515 : absolutely right.

[@kathryngeeslin9509]

@@SonOfTheDawn515 Day and a half, maybe, all day second day, part of first, smidgen of third.

[@elainejohnson6955]

Christopher Hitchens exposed how twisted and cruel Mother Theresa's view on suffering was.

[@breakaleg10]

Even if there was a god, would we need one in everyday life? Wouldn’t it be truly annoying to have someone interfering in one’s life by saying: ”you need to lay down your work now to worship me”

[@Natorz111]

The muslims have to do that 5 times per day. Not very efficient.

[@phantomstarsx9343]

This is why I have a hard time figuring if I'm an agnostic or an Apathiest. If god exists, he seems... passive. At best... so is worship necessary...? Doesnt seem to be, at least to me. And that's still an if.

[@Natorz111]

@@phantomstarsx9343 well if you look at the gods throughout history of mankind, there has been 1000s all of them have been evolved together with the common knowledge of man. From being gods in a lake or gods of thunder or gods on top of a mountain. I think it's safe to assume that all gods are just created by man to explain certain things and now we have reached a modern age of mankind where we don't need to explain things with gods anymore.

[@phantomstarsx9343]

@@Natorz111 oh boy... this is where we get into my weird philosophy. Do I think the god of the bible exists? I sure hell hope not, I prefer the "bible" god that is extremely white washed in Sunday school. And he's about as likely as every other god in existence.... let's say the odds are... slim. I put god.. and every other god... in a "big" maybe pile. I can argue for or against each god, bible god just seems to be the one you run into a lot... and frankly I come up with better apologetics then the apologists because I don't skip the logic bit. It's weird because my thought process is a bit more atheistic, but I tend to not speak in certainties, so I prefer an agnostic maybe... then at the end of the day I don't actually care cause I've "observed" "god" as passive.... so apathiest. ... and in all 3 circumstances god isnt necessary in life... then I was raised in "works not entirely faith." (I've actually been pondering lately whether or not I should be classified as athiest.) However even in the likely scenario that... god was invented by man.. I ponder the existence of a being that could be interpreted as a god and whether it is actually a god is only the tip of the iceberg... it's still not much more then a fun thinking experiment. I do enjoy studying gods and seeing where they relate... then you have Hinduism with 33 million or some astronomical number like that... so if you give all gods an equal chance of existing... I prefer not to think too hard on that one, even though I'm the one that tries to give equal chance, that equal chance is very small, whereas the "man invented god" argument is likelier then all of em at face value. Like I said, I'm a bit strange on the subject and have spent way too much time thinking about it.

[@phantomstarsx9343]

@@Natorz111 personally I think a lot of gods were also created out of boredom. They didnt have tv back then, what else were they gonna do... the Egyptian gods and greek gods especially read like a soap opera.

[@NotCapitalist]

Sure is a nice soul you have there. Would be a shame if something...happened to it.

[@spaceagemonkey8889]

@Timothy Mostad mmmmmm steaks

[@RobGravelle]

1. God gives us freewill. 2. God punishes us for eternity for using freewill in a way that he doesn't like.

[@UriahChristensen]

Theodicy is a large part of my deconversion. I have seen that all Christian responses to the problem of suffering fall in one of two categories: 1. Memorizing and repeating a canned response without thinking said response through; and 2. Deliberately being dishonest by not addressing the actual problem. Apologists to deal with the question, "why doesn't God stop an act that causes suffering?" This is not the problem of suffering. The problem of suffering deals with preventing suffering from ever existing. This bait-and-switch has been done for so long that atheists tend not to see it. This is why the cop analogy in the vid doesn't work. According to the problem of suffering the cop would not even exist, and there would be no sexual assault even attempted. It is for this reason I had reformulated the problem of suffering: 1. Either: A. God is willing, and able to prevent baby rape B. God is unwilling, but able to prevent baby rape C. God is willing, but unable to prevent baby rape D. God is unwilling, and unable to prevent baby rape 2. If A, then baby rape does not exist 3. If B, then God desires baby rape 4. if C, then God is impotent 5. If D, then the entity you propose is not a God. 6. Baby rape exists === 7. So, either baby rape does not exist, God desires baby rape, God is impotent, or the entity you propose is not a God (1-5 by constructive dilemma) 8. So, either God desires baby rape, God is impotent, or the entity you propose is not a God (6,7 by disjunctive syllogism) The material implications from this conclusion are pretty damning for the existence of a God: If God does not desire baby rape; then either God is impotent, or the entity you propose is not a God If God is not impotent; then either God desires baby rape, or the entity you propose is not a God If the entity you propose is a God; then either God is impotent, or God desires baby rape This also applies to deistic gods. How? Well, an indifferent God does not desire baby rape. To say something is indifferent toward, and desires a state of affairs would be a contradiction. So, a purposed Deistic God is either impotent, or the entity proposed is not a God.

[@peejay4606]

Yay!!! Two of my favorite guys.. Paul and Zod.

[@the_kraken6549]

7:01 I was not prepared for how much I’d laugh at the return of the “for the bible tells me so” jingle. Brilliant.

[@veganatheistandmore]

Thank you both for this great video! ;-)

[@johns7734]

When pressed on the subject, the justifications that I've heard from virtually every devout theist make them sound, to me, like abused spouses. It's amazing that they can't hear that in themselves. But, I supposed that abused spouses never do either.

[@blackice9088]

The Creatards are so convinced they are right, they do not realize how foolish their arguments sound to anyone with a higher level of intelligence than themselves.

[@jacoblee5796]

I love my kids unconditionally, they could hate me, curse my name, not believe in me, ext....i would still love them. I would still try to keep them from suffering. I wouldn't never create a place separate from me for them to suffer for all eternity. So how is god all loving!? When me, a flawed human parent, seems to have a better understanding of what love is than the biblical god.

[@jacoblee5796]

@Gabe Norman I'm an atheist but all that means is i do not believe the claim that there is a god. Being an atheist is not a world view. It shouldn't tell you anything else about me.

[@martifingers]

7.45 on. A great and succinct plea for intellectual honesty. Not even arguing one particular point of view, simply , if I may say. a refusal to bear false witness against your own mind.

[@js-sp9bz]

The two best KZbin atheists

[@kimmyswan]

I’ve heard it argued that even if god promises eternal life in heaven (which is a pretty popular theodicy and one of the originals), this STILL does not justify the suffering we experience in THIS life. For example, if I punch you in the face and then offer you $5000 as compensation - this does not suggest that punching you was somehow ok. Most of the philosophical arguments for god (morality, suffering, ontological) end in skeptical theism which is a fancy way of saying “god works in mysterious ways”.

[@MrCrimsonbolt]

These guys are my two favourite youtubers. I find their subscriber counts utterly mystifying. I get that it's not exactly mainstream entertainment, but even in comparison with some other atheist channels their subscriber counts are low. Not to denigrate anybody with this comment. A lot of people watch them, I definitely didn't mean to belittle their achievements; in my opinion their videos, their ideas and in particular the presentation of their ideas are of such excellent quality that far more people should subscribe and watch. I also didn't mean to suggest that the atheist channels with more subscribers don't deserve to have the subscribers they have. Their channels are excellent too. Just, for me, these two are a cut above. Especially Paul (sorry Zod). They are both very good at delivering their ideas clearly, in ways that are interesting and entertaining. Thank God for Paulogia and Prophet of Zod

[@AndrewJens]

I like to put a link back to Paulogia's videos at the video being addressed because it's important that the viewers there who are being deluded have the opportunity to easily find a dissenting view. Unfortunately the cowards who made this source video have turned comments off. Still, suppressing discussion is what has made the various religions what they are today. Interestingly, the ratio of likes to dislikes at the source video is about 20 to 1, whereas the ratio is 230 to 1 for this video. Keep up the good work Paul.

[@JohnStopman]

Prophet of Zod just gained another subscriber! :-)

[@__Andrew]

7:01 the act of apologists "adding up" all these weak arguments as if 20 weak arguments means you have a strong case for god is something that's seen _SO_ much. If a Christian says "i know this argument here is not very strong, but i have another argument, and another. And although they might not be individually very strong, together they prove god" that's like saying "I know the nails im using are rusty and bent, and the wood im using is rotten, the concrete im pouring is weak, and the electrical wires im using are frayed.... but if i add them all together i have a house". But is that really a house you want to live in? Using lots of poor methods together doesnt suddenly become a finely polished final project.

[@shadoslacker7409]

"The chief purpose of life is not happiness", the Christian tells us. And then we see a picture illustrating what it's like to know God...in which the people all look happy, or at least serene. See also the smiling face at 16:35 with the caption "God is good to me". For a person saying that happiness isn't the point, happiness sure seems to be the carrot he's dangling before us.

[@WaveFunctionCollapsed]

0:30 so cute 😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@forkliftwizard]

3:33 "Orders it through people's free choices and actions" Sounds like a puppet master, rather than a bestower of free will, to me. Which is it I wonder? A "God" with a plan, and in control, or one that allows free will? Perhaps one that is the source of all logic, and not entirely in violation of the principle of non contradiction? 🤔🤔🤣😂🤣

[@Grim_Beard]

Indeed - the claim that a god orders it _and_ that it is people's free choices is oxymoronic. Like many apologetics and religious claims, this point is self-defeating if given even a little thought.

[@BernicePanders]

LoL, I was in a Paul0gia mood today & was just watching reruns! 🤓👍

[@LouisGedo]

These collabs are excellent!

[@JamesRichardWiley]

Preventable human and animal suffering is not evidence of an impeccable , compassionate god. Only the absence.

[@reeceguisse17]

7:00 a whole screen of "information" and only ONE is even faintly persuasive, [personal] Experience of God, and that only for the individual who had the experience, and even then it's subjective! I'm looking forward to hearing what the guys have to say...

[@jamestodd4877]

Isaiah 45:7 states;" Who forms light and creates darkness, Who makes peace and creates evil; I am the Lord, Who makes all these." SOOO...Gaw-duh wants you to pray to him to save you from the evil he inflicted on you in the first place. That's so narcissistic that Gaw-duh ought to be working for the Federal gov't. Likely the IRS.

[@JimmyTuxTv]

perfect satire

[@estinsidebottom]

Everyone Knows The IRS Stands For Irrefutable Saint.

[@jamestodd4877]

@@estinsidebottom 😂🤣

[@tussk.]

God, why did you let me die in agony? I was only a child. My whole family prayed non stop for months for you to spare me. Sorry Susan, I was busy helping the Lakers win the playoffs, and that one guy find his car keys.

[@margaretbarrett6087]

Tussk Brilliant comment!

[@mutalemwananshiku4098]

13:51-14:02 then why did he make a perfect garden in the first place.?

[@JimmyTuxTv]

and let the deceiver in this perfection, only to protect it with a flamed sword after perfection tainted... god!

[@JimmyTuxTv]

J. H. Where is your source for lacked perfection? Gen 1:31 “very good indeed” as stated by god seems absolute. Eden according to god in Gen 2:9 “pleasant to sight” 2:12 “gold of the land is good”.

[@DAYBROK3]

If our life’s goal is to find out what’s god like, I know that if there is a god he is no better than his evil twin.

[@EdwardHowton]

When your argument is so weak that you have to toss in a "Well even the people who disagree with me agree with me!" and then move on before anyone can think to ask "...wait, what?"

[@gupdoo3]

"a perfect world for his human pets" yeah but I wouldn't willingly let my pets starve or ignore their illnesses

[@vCoralSandsv]

Whoohooo new Paulogia 😍

[@pierrelindgren5727]

God, as an all-knowing diety, created the conditions for suffering when he set up the universe fully aware of all the lives that would be lost and the pain it would inflict... just that he could show his love. Any human partental figure does not need to this to earn the love and devotion of their children. We're better than God could ever be, should he exist.

[@26beegee]

The most likely probability is - there is no god and suffering happens for a wide variety of reasons. Since I accepted that, I have had a lot more peace.

[@haroldwood1394]

Since C.S.Lewis is cited, it's worth mentioning that he was far more careful and hesitant in his arguments about pain and suffering - which he fully acknowledged - than those who use some of his ideas.

[@bigdude8468]

We have The Four Horsemen of the Atheist Apocalypse, The Unholy Trinity, & now The Demolition Duo. Great job of cutting through the religious con job B.S., fellas!!!

[@Callum679]

Does anyone else see a conflict between the arguments that God didn't make us to be happy, yet knowing god is the best thing ever and in the end we'll have a wonderful time in paradise?

[@greense65]

That was painful. But I am thankful to have Paulogia and POZ to accompany me through this ordeal.

[@josiahvonb3426]

The problem with the god proposition is that the proposal was cobbled together from previously misunderstood natural observations. When people came up with their final draft of this current god claim they didn't realize how badly the attributes would conflict with future understandings of reality. So when people try to defend out dated logic in the modern day, they have to make every excuse in the book to try to make it fit modern logic.

[@sussekind9717]

So, the logic put forth here would say, that somebody who was an honest, generous and good hearted individual, but yet has gone through crippling and crushing poverty, abuse at the hands of evil and manipulative people. Somebody that was forced to work in abject slavery 18 hours a day until their physical bodies were completely shot and then thrown to the side, like refuse on a pile. In other words immense suffering. While somebody that is an abuser and takes advantage of people physically, emotionally, psychologically and monetarily. Scamming people with crooked business deals, forcing people to work for them for little to no compensation, along with molesting children in their spare time, would still end up in the same place as the 1st person, as long as they both but believe.

[@amaryllis0]

I actually think the "happiness strawman" is (while still a strawman since it's not what the problem of evil requires) actually valid: if you are presented with a choice between making someone happy and nothing changing, with no negative side effects, you have a moral obligation to choose that first option. And the thing with an omnipotent being is that there's never any negative side effects.

[@shriggs55]

My 12 year old grandson was discovered to be schizophrenic when he was 5 years old.He is now 12 years old and has been diagnosed schitzo-affective disorder,which is a blend of schizophrenia and bi-polorism..Hee is also autistic,epileptic and has o.c.d.His parents have been devoted Christians for years and years.My grandson has lifelong diseases for which there are no cures.Even Job did not have his"trial"last his entire lifetime.None of this is causing all involved to have more"intimate knowledge of God." My son and his wife keep on believing-because they don't know what else to do.I have my reasons for not believing in the Christian God.But if I still believed-this one issue of my grandsons misery would be enough to send me high-tailing in the opposite direction.

[@danielrhouck]

14:08 Video: “Paul, who wrote much of the New Testament”, Paul: *talks about the authorship of the New Testament without actually saying who wrote most of it* Paul, you should have treated it like a question addressed at you.

[@Kevin_Williamson]

10:09 -- the purpose of life is to know God? First, this is the first I've heard about this so-called purpose, and I was a Christian for many decades. Second, how am I supposed to know a supposedly unknowable god? I always heard things about mystery and how our ways aren't God's ways and no one can fully know the mind of God. God never talks to us humans in person. No one can say what God sounds like or likes to do for a hobby. So it seems my actual Purpose Of Life can not be fulfilled. That sucks. A purpose for life that can never be realized in my entire life. That doesn't bring fulfillment. That brings disappointment. 15:46 -- so knowledge of this ultimately unknowable God is the ultimate fulfillment of human existence? What about all the people who never had the chance to hear about this God throughout human history? Or those who belong to other religions and don't care to know about Christianity? You'd think God would've accounted for that if he could see all of human history and planned accordingly so that wouldn't happen. It's not surprising the video would take this view of suffering. After all, the gospels basically take the same reasoning. Jesus was talking to the poor and sick and downtrodden and giving them hope of an afterlife. So just bear with the pain of this life in a promise of the next. The last shall be first and all that. Paul's message was the same. It's really why modern prosperity gospel preachers need to alter or misread certain Biblical texts to reach out to prosperous people and promise them more wealth.

If he doesn`t give a shit about you when you are alive, he certainly won't give a shit about you when you are dead. Why would he?

[@pwoods100]

So according to the Christian video, the whole reason people suffer is to draw them closer to god. If that's the case, then why would I want to give to the poor?

[@margaretbarrett6087]

pwoods100 very logical

[@d.o.m.494]

If you are all good and all powerful how could you let suffering happen?

[@dethspud]

The purpose of life is to know God? Ooh, close but no cigar. The answer we were looking for there was to "know good". And obviously to do good. "When I do good I feel good and when I do bad I feel bad and *that* is my religion" ~A Lincoln.

[@brigidscaldron]

It’s so interesting to me, now that I’m 21 years out of Christianity, how I could not see that this is no different than any other death cult from antiquity.

[@Kruppes_Mule]

Raphael Lataster has written a book that takes on Craig's arguments. If you haven't read it you might find it interesting.

[@Ernoskij]

14:42 unless you are thrown in hell by the "benevolent god" and are tortured for eternity, then our pain will kind of endure forever.

[@rogerroger5649]

This is really one hell of a gig the religious apologist has. If you are suffering, it is all part of God's plan that you are too ignorant to understand and they are too ignorant to explain to you. If you are well off and living the high life then it's an easy explination, it is all part of God's plan because he showers those who follow him with blessings. If you are in-between then the reason its all part of God's plan is that you just haven't prayed hard enough or given enough to have been showered with God's blessings or, if that fails the alternate reason is something along the lines of "the meek shall inherit the earth". They've got you covered wherever you are in life.

[@BernicePanders]

ETA: I promise there's a related point to my life story! 😞🤦 I'm 35yrs old & a forever single LGBTQIA atheist in a very big, very conservative, straight & homophobic, widely religious, middle class family. I've been disabled since childhood, developing more chronic & terminal illnesses as time goes, having had 8 failed lumbar spine surgeries between 2000-2010, then severe stress heart failure & renal failure at ages 27 & 30. Both NDEs brought me to realize there was no afterlife or god, did some research, then had my belief in reality & science cemented the second time, mostly due to the way my family reacted to what happened & the questions I asked. Ever since the first time, I've been almost completely cut off from most of my family, only my strictly Baptist, Republican, racist/sexist/homophobic/etc. grandma is there to give me a ride to my mandatory monthly Dr appts while quoting scriptures & lecturing me on how stupid I am to prioritize my lifesaving meds over other expenses. I've watched every child & grandchild born after me (in my generation) in both sides of my family get all the support they needed, multiple times over, to start their lives, get vehicles, move to other states, etc. My perfectly healthy younger sisters, cousins, even just by marriage, got help with college, got huge amounts of money when getting married, etc. Even my meth addict cousin who sold everything for drugs & my alcoholic shopaholic sister who got in 4 DUIs had help multiple times, especially with cars! Even after being born unwanted & despised by my mother, I was never cared for by anyone else where she failed. She was allowed to use me as her scapegoat for literally everything wrong, her shrink & soundboard where I was strapped in my car seat for hours while she drove & ranted & cried about her relationships, her food addiction, every little thing she wanted to complain about. I was severely mentally abused & as true christian corporeal punishment, I was beat with a very heavy solid wood paddle, forced to stand in a corner facing the wall for upwards of 8hrs & was force-fed dish soap. It's no wonder I've had severe spine & joint problems since appx 12yrs old & have had severe nausea, acid reflux & ulcers since years before that! After my whole teen & young adult life were spent in a lab rat cage, watching the rest of the family go traveling, to theme parks, getting their own cars by age 18, having normal, fun social lives. No matter how much I begged, I was never allowed to go to anything fun or exciting, except one Make-A-Wish thing when I was 15, which I have very few memories left of. I have a bipolar, manipulative, controlling, abusive, pathalogical liar of a mother, and everyone else in the family got away from her as quickly as possible, starting with my dad leaving when I was 7. My disability income started at age 15, and my mom immediately deducted 80%+ of it for "our expenses", but even though my healthy sister got a desk job about a year later, she never had to pay any bills, soon able to get herself her dream car, a used Mustang street racer, then she took off with her boyfriend at 16 & never looked back. I was trapped with my mom, alone & the only focus of her abuse, while she took more & more of my income, privacy, time I wasted while my illnesses & pain got worse & all my open back surgeries resulted in worse outcomes. I never got to experience any normal life, and was prevented from getting any chance at a vehicle or moving out on my terms, until she kicked me out, with no savings, no household needs, no way to get into affordable housing that quick, at age 23, a few weeks after major back surgery #8! I had to live in a 300sq foot roach motel drug den apt that took most of my $570/month disability, and I had so little food I lost a ton of weight. I was then forced to move back to my boring small hometown an hour away, as it was the only hud apt I could get anytime soon. I've spent the last 10+ years on my own, mostly ignored by the majority of my family, all of whom moved out of state except 2 uncles & my Gma, to get away from my mom. After her 4th & shortest marriage ended with her husband running away screaming, leaving her with a $15k settlement (she's really good at manipulating to get her way), she moved right across the road from me! I found out when she applied for her own disability, that not only did she get another $8-10k from the state as back pay, but that apparently back when I was approved, unbeknownst to me, I'd gotten a back paycheck of at least $12k, which I never saw a dime of!! I also found that she'd kept money from child support that was supposed to be saved for us to use at 18, and that she'd been claiming me as a dependent on her taxes the whole time since she kicked me out!! All that money, the multiple lump sum payouts, and not once did she ever try to help me become independent, get a shitty used car, help pay my always overdue power bill, or move to a state where the specialists, doctors, and affordable meds exist that I badly need to extend & greatly improve my life! Instead, she watched me slowly, painfully sell everythg I could get anything for, go without groceries & meds regularly, come within hours of losing my power, and obsess for a decade of acquiring any motorized vehicle, even a moped or power chair, just so I could have the tiniest bit of freedom to experience ANYTHING outside the bars of this claustrophobic lab rat cage, anything fun or happy to hold onto. I even drew up plans to build a pop-up tent on a mini trailer thing I could tow behind a moped, so I could get myself out west soon as Spring came! But every day that passes it becomes more evident I will never escape the clutches of the controlling, manipulative abusive mother, the insanely conservative, Bible literalist family, the old retirement community of religious Trump supporters, or the small town I was born in. Every time an event passes within an hour from here that no matter how hard I try I can't get a ride to, be it a concert, atheist event, geek convention, political rally, LGBTQ Pride parade, or a cannabis festival (where medical patients like me can get enough free samples to make up the usual $350+ I have to spend on min. meds per month), my heart shatters & dies a little more. My family decided I was a hopeless waste of time when I was disabled, and the way the other kids were treated in comparison showed that. They decided that, even though supposedly god never gives us more than we can handle, my heart literally exploding from the severe stress & anxiety that went untreated my whole life, and the fact that it was a "miracle" I was brought back, not the doctor chose to override my clearly expressed DNR forms in favor of my family's religion, so from then on, if I were to get anywhere in life or achieve or experience anything better than being an imprisoned lab rat, it was entirely up to GOD & they had no part to play in it! Better yet, they say the reason every aspect of my life as gotten worse, causing monthly minor stress heart attacks, near daily anxiety attacks, and being forced to chose between the meds keeping me out of the ICU & having power & groceries, it's all happening because *I strayed from GOD* !!

[@leeheishman5422]

Im sorry you got one shitty family

[@KaneGreyfeather]

To be fair, an all good/loving god can coexist with suffering and not be destroyed by the problem of evil. If we drop the requirement that they be all knowing, they might not know the suffering is happening, or have an idea how to stop it. And if we drop all powerful, then we have the easy solution that they simply aren't powerful enough to solve the problem. Really, there aren't THAT many gods that get wrecked by the problem of evil.

[@NieroshaiTheSable]

Designed things are built specifically for their purpose. If our purpose is to know God, A) Why are we so apparently bad at that, and B) why are we so much better at other things?

[@jonesboome4451]

I like to go on the attack against the idea of freewill when presented with this argument. Because without freewill, the whole argument falls apart; and freewill cannot be demonstrated to exist. In fact there are some thought experiments that illustrate how it may very well be an illusion.

[@adamk4242]

When explaining one problem, they just run into another. If knowing God is the ultimate goal of life, and suffering is okay, then why does God allow wealth? It's easy for them to say that suffering doesn't matter, and you can still have a wonderful afterlife. But will they ever say that those who are spared from any suffering are NOT destined for heaven? It's a slap in the face to say "Don't worry. Those who suffer go to heaven. And oh yeah, those who never suffer go to heaven also." Then we're back at square one with the problem of evil.

[@markcostello5120]

10:36 Hence why the Catholic Church didn't do a damn thing to stop kiddy fiddling priests.

[@lnsflare1]

I mean, the obvious answer is that all suffering is meaningless from the perspective of an eternal and omnipotent being, and if said being is also omniscient then It already knows what all the suffering in the universe feels like, and if It is also omnipresent, then every individual thing in the universe is just an infinitesimal fraction of Itself and therefore It is the one undergoing all the suffering in the first place. Of course, the corollary is that I don't recall anything like that even being implied in the Abrahamic religions, and no religion has ever down significant proof of said being actually existing.

[@ladyaj7784]

The intro to this is priceless!!

[@Simon.the.Likeable]

The argument would have been more convincing if they had hired Big Man Tyrone to read the voice over.

[@Redhunteur2]

"Crisp and clean and no caffeine! HAHAHAHAHAHAH!"

[@Slum0vsky]

9:15 I would say that any pet owner wants to make their pets as happy as possible, unless s/he some kind of sociopath. And giving us the task to get to know god and then use said god omnipotence to hide from us is pure sadism.

[@kenchristiansen2080]

How can anyone know God? How can you form any thoughts about something that you can't meet, see, get a response from, yet somehow it allows you to be tortured for all eternity with no chance of redemption.

[@mout911]

If God has no reason or need to give us happiness in this life, why would any believer think that God has a need or reason to do just that in the "next life"?

[@optimusprime5319]

“The purpose of life is not happiness,it is to know god which gives true fulfillment aka happiness”

[@MasterCedar]

Fuck that, I'm not willing to waste my one life running round playing hide and seek with an invisible imaginary playmate.

[@optimusprime5319]

I was showing the self defeating nature of the claim."the purpose of life is not happiness,its happiness"

[@SapphWolf]

"The problem of evil may be convincing, but don't worry, you can just ignore that and listen to all of these other arguments for God instead." Ugh...

[@billglenn10]

ZOD knocks it out of the park between 16:32 to 19:20... Wow!

[@Oswlek]

*Suffering can yada yada yada* Fair enough, but couldn't god have accomplished the same thing without the suffering? _He has his reasons!_ But couldn't _those_ objectives also have been accomplished without suffering? Craig's responses don't solve anything, the problem remains perpetually a single question away. He still hasn't made suffering and Christian doctrine _consistent,_ let alone probable. He can solve this by ditching any one of omnipotence, omniscience or omni-benevolence, but something tells me he's unlikely to do so. Absent that, the only way to truly reconcile the two is to show that suffering is good. Not because of the good/growth/development that can come out of it - Craig presumably concedes those things could be accomplished without suffering - but that suffering is good in and of itself. I welcome an honest attempt at addressing this issue, but I won't hold my breath.

[@michaelsommers2356]

An omniscient, omnipotent god would know how to and be able to accomplish his goals without inflicting any suffering at all.