Payday 3: My Opinion, Your Choice.

[@TheKknowley]

Wow, in just 4 days this has been completely turned around! I've changed my title to reflect the fact that we're dealing with a very different company now. www.paydaythegame.com/news/payday3/2024/08/medicbag-update24/

[@thegreatandpowerfuldc5977]

I was about to say, that’s a clever title change hahaaha

[@person10179]

It feels like they're so focused on balance that they've forgotten to consider the fun factor.

[@SneedRemembrancer]

Helldivers 2 moment

[@avoidable69]

and at the end they dont get any of them right. neither fun or balanced.

[@kkay000]

And in the end it's still not balanced, so what's the point?

[@lungenbrötchen]

​@@SneedRemembrancerNot even close. HD2 is so much more fun and immersive in just any way. The difference is they are lead by someone that understands the game and the engine they are using. After seeing starbreeze fiddeling around on pd3 for almost one year all hope is gone. I do not think they can pull off a Cyberpunk comeback or something similar. Why? Because almost every week they inform the community that they do not understand their own game. I dont think its in purpose, but tbh that doesnt matter.

[@Awiatar]

@@lungenbrötchenHD2 WAS FUN, they don't even know how to buff peashooters instead we will get nerfs because fun is not allowed in that game

[@michealtheevilhero2340]

And thus, This adds even more evidence to my point that Payday 3 will never succeed for as long as Starbreeze refuse to get their heads out of their asses and learn and listen

[@redhood7778]

Why do you think Payday 3 will never beat Payday 2?

[@ZoranAUS]

@@redhood7778 LOL because we've likely all played PD2

[@oozingtulip1534]

we cant have skills being TOO effective, otherwise we might have fun

[@Rempai420]

Its obvious that someone at Starbreeze just doesn't want to succeed. I don't understand how a company can be this tone deaf. The game is boring at the minute, with no stand out weapons or builds that really scream "Fun". Then they go and go stuff like this, kill off fun skills one by one until there is nothing left.

[@Kero-zc5tc]

@@Rempai420I can’t believe we’ve gotten to a point where we don’t believe someone could be that unintelligent to be doing this unintentionally

[@LilWeeWeeGamin69]

@@Kero-zc5tc I honestly don't think you can accidentally propose an idea to a team, have them accept it, and make the likely underpaid game devs put it into action, but maybe that's just me

[@Kero-zc5tc]

@@LilWeeWeeGamin69 you know what I meant, there’s no need to be so rude about it

[@Kero-zc5tc]

My comment also made sense the original way as a accident can be unintentional so I don’t see why you are policing this

[@cookiedou3]

With the ammo funnel + replenish combo, replenish was the one that made it stupidly strong, I'm genuinely baffled as to how anyone could think "yeah, this is a change that ensures the game retains its intended challenge while still remaining fun."

[@TheKknowley]

Watching your video this morning all I could think was how impecable your timing was! I argued exactly that point.

[@tare104ka]

Your vid actually foreshadowed this terrible devlog i cannot with this comedic timing

[@antynomity]

"Have y'all got any fun?" "We got abysmal dogshit."

[@moonlordmeow3431]

If Gambler in Payday 2 proves anything, it's that putting a time delay on commonly activated useful mechanics makes them both unviable and unfun. Above all else, we play video games to have fun. A series like Pokémon has proven that if a game is fun, it doesn't matter if it's too easy, people will still enjoy it. Watching the changes from outside, it seems (keyword: seems) more and more like the people in charge of decision making forgot that we play and pay for video games to have fun. Above all else, if a game is fun, people will play it, and pay fore more of it. Sometimes, it's as simple as that.

[@DJ_PickleDick]

Well said. I wish Starbreeze took this more to heart.

[@backlogbuddies]

Right now there's a huge issue with games in general where they forgot games are supposed to be fun.

[@superfurfannyaa1864]

gambler is a bad pick for that example. it's my perk deck of choice and i got the dsod mask with it

[@Awesomepelt]

@@superfurfannyaa1864 Gambler is viable, as is every perk deck, but that doesn’t mean it’s good in comparison to other decks. Definitely in the bottom or second to bottom tier depending on how you want to rate things.

[@plebisMaximus]

I feel like the whole state of the AAA industry right now can be summed up with that old Reggie quote, "If it's not fun, why bother?"

[@Zdzichu-2016]

How many times do we have to teach you this lesson old man... It baffles me that starbreeze only listens to the community when they're actively being boycotted

[@iknowurip8151]

unrelated but obligatory protogen pfp comment

[@captainhydrodus4616]

I mean yeah. Hurt their bottom line to really get their attention, time and time again that's been the choice method and the only one that works they've sent out two surveys and we've not heard a THING about them.

[@backlogbuddies]

To be fair this isn't a boycott the game just sucks. Edge grit rush are just terrible mechanics

[@filmandfirearms]

@@captainhydrodus4616 Except this is hurting their bottom line, massively so, and yet they still don't listen

[@Frostaltered]

@@backlogbuddiesi still dont understand the edge/grit/rush system and I have 20 something hours in Pd3. While pd2 is pick up and play levels of simple.

[@tommynguyen8164]

As soon as Mio became director, i was concerned about the game’s FASTER downfall. After all, he tried to double down on the challenge based progression system and decided to nerf the armor up skill when the armor system was at its worst state

[@danilablond]

And thus they came for the only skill in the game that wasn’t a 10% boost to something. Skills in Payday 3 with few exceptions are just so flipping boring. I just don’t want to bother with dealing 5% more damage to stunned/marked enemies that applies once in never.

[@KaptainKanno]

Do this trivial task to acquire a small square at the bottom of your screen is essentially what these skill lines boil down to.

[@Rempai420]

Reload every 10 seconds to keep edge and grit up 24/7 just to get the same armour regen as Payday 2. FUN.

[@DJ_PickleDick]

@@Rempai420 I'm sorry but it's so obvious Mio only added this crap because he is genuinely autistic and it triggers his OCD. He must be getting a gigantic dopamine rush from seeing a progress bar filling up at the bottom of his screen.

[@spacebird1598]

Those 3 squares and the change to the armor system are what put me off this game when it first came out and I never looked back, especially cause it felt like the few guns I had did 0 damage and would take forever to kill cops

[@braddeal2184]

Reductionism. Wow you just breathed while reading this comment. Why live? This is how these simplification arguments always come across btw

[@Rempai420]

@@braddeal2184 Someone with a horrendous take comes along, shock.

[@dragonlord4898]

“Hey guys what do you think of this balance change” “Honestly it’s not great, you probably shouldn’t do it” “Cool so we’re gonna do it anyway”

[@JACKELincorporated]

literally whats the point of having creator partners for the game and giving them info early if their feedback will be ignored lmao

[@braddeal2184]

​@@JACKELincorporated it all starts with a question...

[@SLKibara]

NO NO NO! STARBREEZE WHAT ARE YOU DOING?! STOP THIS RIGHT NOW!

[@CrimeNetArchive]

Fun not allowed style of balancing is a plague over modern gaming.

[@WildWombats]

I agree. Sometimes, we WANT to be a bit powerful. Maybe you don't make us overly powerful at first, but it's FUN having loads of fun skills and powers that feel OP. Sure, the hardcore challenge lovers might not be as happy about that, but that can easily be countered with higher level difficulties and tweaking the difficulty there.

[@NEEDbacon]

@@WildWombats It's because most games are PVP, rather then PVE. Are we hurting the bots feelings when we're able to rip through a level like Sanic cause of skills? Honestly nerf this is worse then boost everything. But nerfing is easy, figuring out why other skills aren't liked and fixing that is hard.

[@UmiZoomR]

Big man needs to use crutches to have fun lmao

[@mlgmcdonaldsland7063]

​@@WildWombatsThis is the reason payday 2 had so many difficulties. It was one of the things that attracted me to the game.

[@Cleanevilreal]

@@UmiZoomRlooking through your comments, it seems you’re just a ragebaiter. Therefore, opinion disregarded. Bait used to be believable

[@wardenActual]

What you put in the title says it all and is what I've been saying forever People don't like the armor system? People hover around a certain skill because it's fun? People don't like online only? Too bad, it's our opinion, but Mio's choice.

[@ihniioleg]

So my choise is not playing payday 3.

[@breezy3176]

It's our choice to play pd2 instead

[@plebisMaximus]

I think the online only was on the publishers. They were probably planning on injecting microtransactions after the game sold a gorillion copies, though I'd be surprised if that's still the plan.

[@doomslayer8025]

@@ihniioleg then alimir says you arent a true player since you only gave them 40$ for a terrible game

[@n0kt0h45]

it's a reference to an old quote about Payday 2. when people complained about the flashbangs (which, unlike today, basically just sprang out of nowhere with no indication of where they were and made the community very mad), one of the devs responded with "your opinion, my choice"

[@labadaba1147]

Its kinda like deleting inspire or swan song from pd2

[@BrunoHenrique-gi1wd]

Well, they did end up nerfing Insp at some point in PD2

[@Zdzichu-2016]

@@BrunoHenrique-gi1wd yeah but inspire went from an op skill to a really good skill Ammo funnel is now just a glorified speed mag attachment

[@BrunoHenrique-gi1wd]

@@Zdzichu-2016 true, you can say that change was pretty... Uninspired...

[@Eretec]

What made and still makes inspire good imo is the fact that it’s a crutch rather than a way to build your character at any level. And once you’re over it it’s niche but still provides substance and ways to diversify aggressively playing. I’m in no doubt now that pd2 skills were a happy accident rather than a thoroughly planned system

[@Eretec]

@@Zdzichu-2016 I’d argue that at a lower level of playing there isn’t a skill with higher impact on survivability and therefore overall performance than inspire no matter the cooldown or chance of it happening. I’d say it’s rather went from op to slightly less op, but it became no longer random. Which is a net positive in my eyes. (Don’t remember any other changes tbh, they might’ve reduced the range at some point, but I dunno) Ammo funnel or its corresponding skills weren’t ever broken in the same way, they weren’t game changing skills, but it was a way to increase the performance of anyone at any level. They were a problematic bunch of skills, but there’s no way they needed to do anything with them before making the skill system worth engaging with. Even Raid WW2 with its latest update (4 years after the end of the games support, mind you) understood that.

[@whoamitalkingto9593]

even in the payday 3 trailer they showed the double barrel shooting 3 times. because it looks fun. and now they're removing it. lol.

[@VioletAeonSnowfield]

I'll never understand why companies always do this in PvE games. Balance should NEVER be prioritized over fun in a PvE game.

[@leonardo9259]

Because there's different types of fun, fun that it's a brain-dead power fantasy makes for someone to play once and leave it. You need skillfull gameplay to keep people coming back. None of what I said applies to pd3, the game is just trash lol

[@jeremiahszabo823]

⁠​⁠@@leonardo9259I mean… payday 2 was power fantasy brain dead fun, yet it’s doing a lot better than payday 3

[@distorted_heavy]

You can't make it TOO easy because then it's not fun, but there's a lot of wiggle room and starbreeze seems to not understand that

[@antynomity]

​​@@leonardo9259Payday 3 doesn't have either way of fun lol

[@UmiZoomR]

​@@jeremiahszabo823Because that game is finished but a golden turd is still a turd

[@Someonewithaspace]

next up they're gonna remove the SCAR (Eagle Heavy) and M14 (M308) from the game, because god forbid people having fun in a game

[@avoidable69]

you one shot enemies ??? you cant have that! now all shots from scar and m14 count as body shot. also we removed armor penetration completely from the game and reduced the damage to 1 on those 2 weapons.

[@backlogbuddies]

They'll just up their bloom

[@UnintelligibleYT]

You mean the VF-7S and the L110183214?

[@antynomity]

​@@UnintelligibleYTYes I also love the JF2847474773990001010101022377474773899292992$$$$

[@arborfeliciano7526]

The correct way to balance a game is to make players want to use all the skills, Starbreeze seems to want us to not want any of them unfortunately :(

[@KXRules]

when starbreeze forgets their co-op PvE horde shooter isnt a live service battle royale PvP

[@ninochaosdrache3189]

Arrowhead has entered the chat

[@QU67Reacher6]

Ammo funnel + replenish feels like a combo that should recreate those movie shootout scenes where the guns are firing way more rounds then they hold. Maybe a way to keep that is to cap the amount of rounds ammo funnel can replenish to the mag, then it just starts adding to reserve ammo until you reload which resets the cap.

[@tare104ka]

Could make it so Replenish works the same, but it picks up only part of normal ammo pickup, lets say 60%, so its still doing its current job, but you're going ammo negative even with great accuracy on headshots, so you have to eventually go and grab some boxes by walking to them or use ammo bag (wowee, actual reason to use it that isnt memey high grain?)

[@magicball3201]

What? An interesting rework that keeps the skill feeling unique, fun, and doesn't completely neuter it? That's not allowed in my video game >:(

[@Snimpee-xt1nm]

I don't wanna sound mean but it really feels like Mio just does a lot of things because they "feel" good but not because they make sense. It's the very reason this weird edge, grit, rush system exists. The day they remove that system, I will finally enjoy Payday 3.

[@HoneyBadgerLikesYou]

I feel like Payday 3 was designed so heavily with the current skill system in mind that it makes sense they’d do everything in their power to make it work before entirely gutting it. I think as we go longer and longer it becomes more apparent that the system needs a fundamental change to be fun, though In the end, I think there will be a lot of wasted dollars and time on making this system work compared to if they just gutted it from the beginning, but that would be with hindsight. From Mio’s perspective, it’s a tall order to gut a fundamental gameplay system like skills when other big ticket items like offline play are actively being developed In the end I agree. I like the 3 boxes in principle (they’re good on paper) but they’re not really that fun in practice

[@JoseJimenez-vc7we]

​@@HoneyBadgerLikesYouyou think they even going to add offline mode?

[@HoneyBadgerLikesYou]

@@JoseJimenez-vc7we they expressly said they will add it in two phases, and they’ve already added the first version of it. I don’t see any reason to believe they won’t finish offline mode

[@X-SPONGED]

When will Starbreeze realize they need to stop turning PD3 into a min-maxxing grindfest and start making heisting fun again

[@thewhistler6537]

I'm tired of seeing so many med kits and armor packs scattered on the floor. I'd rather hostages just give time at the beginning of the heist and act like bug repellent during the heist. If you have a room full of hostages, the cops shouldn't just push in. The game wouldn't need this artificial challenge they're pushing if they just made the a.i. act somewhat more believable. I miss the action the armor and weapons brought me in Payday 2. Bring back those Hollywood film vibes and stop being afraid to let the player have power. It's a co-op game ffs.

[@deezboyeed6764]

Lol in todays esport based climate

[@daddydobson200]

What made payday2 a blast is that it wasn't always necessarily focused on balance, but zany wacky fun, it's part of the charm and fun, so the only result of removing those things from payday3 is taking away the series identity and charm

[@scarymeunster9095]

A bunch of people complained about Payday 2 being too “arcady” and “goofy” and we got this. Everyone wants it back now, and here we are. This is why we never listen to the minority that wants to change things that work. They built a system around being realistic and it sucks ass.

[@Smirving]

@@scarymeunster9095 I agree i don't get why people still listen loud minoritys then looking over what general player base says.

[@iowa6646]

Eh, after multiple times of DLC weapons (like crossbows) becoming meta for max difficulty and then being utterly nerfed afterwards, I feel balance was still a "thing". But what payday 2 has is variety, given it's long lifespan and Lion game Lion contribution towards flamethrowers, parachutes and drivable vehicles. There was some kind of identity too.

[@stevencowan37]

​@@Smirvingpart of the problem is that vocal minorities are often the only ones talking. When was the last time you called customer service to say that everything was great and that you were fully satisfied? Not to say that you should do that, but just that complaining about things that are wrong is a more "normal" experience for most

[@Smirving]

@@stevencowan37 They could make polls or do a community question week or something like that to see what problems are community has?

[@Kero-zc5tc]

This is the second time I’ve heard someone quote Oscar Wilde about payday 3, wild not even the same person

[@TheKknowley]

Go on, I'm genuinely intrigued! Oscar had quite the catalogue!

[@Kero-zc5tc]

Nah the last one wasn’t actually a quote, they just said something about the game then called it a quote

[@RonaldMcJuicy]

By 2026 we’re gonna have another Payday 2 DLC

[@TheKknowley]

I'd love to know what odds you'd get on that bet!

[@RonaldMcJuicy]

@@TheKknowley probably not very high. I am not a bold man

[@JACKELincorporated]

@@RonaldMcJuicy it would be peak comedy if payday 2 got another dlc though, Id much rather payday 3 get fixed and become the new payday game to sink hundreds of hours into but ill settle for another payday 2 dlc for funnys sake alone

[@AxonZshow]

good to know that at this point Starbreeze appears to be actively seeking out information on how to make intentionally poor decisions regarding updates. Given that they actively informed partners ahead of time, and god a resounding "this is stupid don't do this" but decided to kick the playerbase while they were down, i'm inclined to think Starbreeze is actively looking to kill PD3 for some reason

[@thereseemstobeenanerror1219]

You would think that, but tragically the leadership really is just that bad.

[@alpine115]

My buddy asked me how PayDay 3 is currently. I felt like I was the Dallas sweating meme, and Oppenheimer staring meme. "It's... Stealth ain't bad." "Mate, you know I only play loud." "........." "Oh no."

[@EdyAlbertoMSGT3]

Based friend by the way

[@Sudako.]

I think at this point especially it's clear to say that one of the biggest problems PAYDAY 3 has, is its game director Mio. I think it's obvious from the start of the game that he's not the right person to handle the game. From what I've know he's responsible for most of the design decisions of the Game. Be it the skill system and the whole Edge, Grit and Rush thing (which most of the community/playerbase doesn't like) the armor system (which most of the community/playerbase also doesn't like) or his weird kink of everything being a finite resource and constantly having to be micromanaged and to finishing Heists as fast as Possible (which oh surprise most of the community/playerbase also doesn't like). He's absolutely stubborn and unwilling to make major and significant changes. He doubles down on almost every criticism of the various things that the majority of the community/player base doesn't like and basically sets it up as either WE just don't understand his vision or WE just don't understand how it works and therefore we don't like it. And his attitude towards criticism seems to be more like (Your Opinion, My Choice.) Mio and the other developers at Starbreeze should have worked more according to the saying, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Of course it's important as a developer and game director to come up with new and creative ideas, with which you can expand and refresh what already exists. But I think one thing that every good developer should have, is the ability to acknowledge when something doesn't work or isn't well received. And instead of reacting with stubbornness, you should have the ability to say, ok we tried it, it doesn't work, let's change it back. but Mio is clearly not ready or capable to do that. Yes, he changed the Progression system, which is a good thing, but only after massive and ongoing backlash from the community, and yes, he also gave us the Adaptive Armor, but that didn't seem to me like something he wanted to do on his own, but rather something he had to do it & did so we wouldn't ''annoye'' him with it any longer. When the Adaptive Armor came out, I imagined him just rolling his eyes in annoyance, quickly throwing something loosely together and throwing it at our feet and saying (here, there you have your Adaptive Armor, now go away and leave me alone). The Adaptive Armor is a step in the right direction, but it's also just a loose bandage wraps around the actual problem, like with pretty much everything that's been done up to now (with the exception of the Progression system change). instead of changing the unnecessary and annoying things in the game people don't like, these things will only be made less annoying, but they'll still be annoying. With Mio I just get the feeling that he isn't interested in making a PAYDAY game or a sequel to PAYDAY 2, he wants to make his own game. He doesn't give a damn about the legacy that PAYDAY has built since PD:TH and PD2 and the community that has been built from PD:TH & PD2 up until now. I don't think Mio or anyone at Starbreeze seems to have any idea why everyone likes and loves PD2 so much. Personally I liked PD2 so much because it was a fast paced action pact goofy and fun shooter that you could jump into for a few quick rounds alone or with friends when you didn't have much time. Or when you did have time you could spend an hour or more in a heist with friends and have fun sneaking around or blowing up hordes of cops. With the help of the skills system, everyone could either specialize in a special role in the team, or a certain weapon category, or a certain heist, or just try out a few meme builds and just have fun. There was so much freedom and Variation that simply don't exist in PD3. In PD2, the focus was first and foremost on having fun, which isn't the case in PD3. The developers want to force their ideas and decisions on us, regardless of whether we're having fun or not, or whether we like it or not. Personally, I can't imagine PD3 coming anywhere close to where PD2 or even PD:TH are today. Maybe in the best case scenario it will be an kinda okay game, if at all. but I can't imagine anything more than that. I also can't imagine PD3 having a second year. At least not a full year. I think once the year's contract is over that's it for PD3 and maybe it's better that way at this point. I love PD:TH & PD2 but I don't see any hope for PD3. Starbreeze had the recipe for success for PD3 on a gold diamond encrusted platter. All they had to do was take everything that was good about PD:TH & PD2 and combine it into one game and build on top of it with new mechanics and ideas. But instead they threw the gold platter away and looked in the trash for something new. Instead of building on what was good in PD2 they decided to throw away everything that made PAYDAY unique, special and good and start all over from scratch, turning PAYDAY from a special and beloved game into a generic and annoying shooter. The only improvement PD3 has over PD2 is the engine, the stealth system and kinda the gun play. But other than those things it doesn't do anything better than its predecessor, it just makes everything worse. And the only thing that feels like it's left of PAYDAY is the name, the masks and co-op. if I remember correctly, Red Archer Live once said in one of his older videos about PD3 that there is a kind of symbiotic relationship between developers and players. Because without developers there is no game, but without players the developers don't make any sales and so when developing games certain compromises have to be made between what the community wants and what the developers want. And in itself that's right, but I think the time for compromises with PD3 has been over for some time now and if Starbreeze still wants PD3 to have any kind of success, they should start giving the majority of the community have wanted for almost 10 months now.

[@Nerdasaurus13]

My favorite build in Payday 2 was from way back in the day. I wanted that walking tank power fantasy of heavy armor and an auto-shotty so I strung together a Tech-Forcer build that let me get ICTV and the skill to add 5 rounds to your mag since the Steakout didn't exist yet and my only option was an Izhma with an auto-fire attachment and it's abysmal 7 round mag. Was it impractical? Yes. Did suit builds run circles around it? Of course. But combining several different complex systems to achieve my ideal playstyle felt incredible. This is exactly where I think Ammo Funnel builds should land. I can totally get why you wouldn't want the meta of your game to involve removing reloads as a mechanic, but a bottomless double barrel is the type of ridiculous stuff that makes you feel like you've outsmarted the game's systems and will keep you coming back for more. Getting rid of the synergy altogether is throwing the baby out with the bath water.

[@somerandomgamer8504]

Oh boy, is that what I've been shouting from the rooftops since beta? That we've gone back to the devs insisting their vision is right and we're all wrong? Is Mio just Bo 2.0?

[@zytosaur]

I mainly just did stealth in PD2 and 3, but I tried out the endless mosconi build and actually had a good time doing heists loud. Seeing how cool it looked in the PD3 trailer was one of the things that made me try out loud on harder difficulties. RIP to a fun build.

[@HoneyBadgerLikesYou]

The changes themselves are actually really reasonable, so I didn’t have a problem reading the blog post. But I think you’re right, even if the balance is well done, it still takes away from a really fun loop. The reason I add that to all my builds is ultimately because it’s fun (and one of the few fun options there is), not necessarily because it’s the best option mechanically or numetically

[@AmbienceGamer]

Yeah they need to get their priorities straight. Creating a legacy skill tree that lets you use skills without arbitrary edge / grit / rush requirements that a lot of people seem to hate, would be a great start... Then they could track what people prefer and adjust their priorities. (Spoiler: Most people are going to stop using edge / grit / rush if this were to ever happen lol)

[@mattware3441]

I’m happy you’re able to intelligently articulate how most of us feel about a series we love. Cheers mate

[@abigor3817]

-“guys if you want pd3 to survive go play now” -“but also you’re not allowed to have fun while doing it” But yeah you basically nailed my thoughts on - it’s bot about this combo being too OP, it’s about other pick being very bad in comparison. If this change came with a revamp of other skills giving you serious consideration of changing skills to something more interesting it wouldn’t be as bad, but just coming up with a nerf feels like starbreeze just wants to put this game in the ground themselves and then blame playerbase

[@marosynth6434]

If you wanna balance something, specially on a PvE game, don't nerf the shit that works, buff the shit that doesn't in order for it to compete

[@gilby_6543]

Mio is a firm believer in Bo Anderson's philosophy

[@pocketinfinity6733]

whos bo anderson

[@DurVyyy]

@@pocketinfinity6733”Your opinion. My choice.”

[@ninochaosdrache3189]

​@@pocketinfinity6733 The CEO of Starbreeze during Payday 2 and the person who almost bankrupted the company

[@blueyandicy]

his philosophy of burning the company to the ground? lol

[@durr4n371]

Petition for Kknowley to cover Raid WW2's new updates

[@JACKELincorporated]

blammosweep

[@Specter053]

As someone observing things from the outside, I think Payday 3 needs to change their skills. The system itself isn't the problem, but man, most skills are either too complex for minor buffs or obvious choices. It's similar to when Payday 2 had Dodge as its meta king: everybody ran Rogue due to latency issues and 80% dodge chance, and since it required stuff like Low Blow and Sneaky Bastard, most people picked them as well. But when the nerfs to dodge happened, the reason why build diversity blommed is because there were good skills as good as the new state of the dodge stuff, like Armorer, HP stacking and a bit later, Anarchist. When you nerf one of the few good and fun skills on a game, you don't endorse build variety, you just make the game more boring.

[@validtangent]

Why is Starbreeze talking about skill tweaks when the roadmap is MIA?

[@Coffeeking.]

Friendly reminder that payday 2 had swan song and bulletstorm, both skills that give you an unlimited ammo pool for a certain amount of time, but since they both required other skills, weapons, or more skill points balance was achieved.

[@audiosurfarchive]

People have been saying ded game for a while, but with balancing changes like this.. it looks like it'll for sure be dead by October if they continue to consider this overturning nerf problems with PD3 in general

[@thatonecrazykobold1729]

mhm, this just confirmed i should uninstall the damned thing and move elsewhere

[@Zdzichu-2016]

@@audiosurfarchive no you don't get it, it's our fault for not playing the game

[@breezy3176]

​​@@thatonecrazykobold1729just go back to pd2 it's actually a video game

[@thewhistler6537]

​@@Zdzichu-2016 No, see I was playing after they fixed the progression and added quickplay. The LMG and Boys in Blue was good too, but I'm done with this shit. Constantly wasting time trying to balance the Payday 3 like it's a PVP shooter. Just let the players have some power. All they needed to focus their efforts on right now are adding more fun ways to play, heists, and cosmetic content. Instead they want to piss time and players away like this. Thanks Mio, I guess I'll take my 3 week vacation now.

[@audiosurfarchive]

@@Zdzichu-2016 I can get where homie is coming from for saying stuff like that.. but the optics given the repeated failures from easy lay-ups turning into faceplanting And-1's.. it just looks manipulative, desperate and.. _pathetic._

[@TheRhysOfAllTime]

ammo funnel isn't overpowered, it is exactly as powered as it should be. Every other skill is underpowered.

[@jurassicbacon]

I genuinely love this game and so much about it, I can see payday 3 becoming something great! A unique experience from payday 2, but regarding the way perks worked I think the best way to balance them is to take the op perks and make the effects have to be aced in order to use and I know normally you can only Ace them first perk of a tree but it honestly would bring balance and make people think about how they are making the builds, as a person who plays almost exclusively loud I think it’s important to say screw balance and put fun forward, besides they could introduce new enemies too to make things harder and counter certain builds

[@moistman6302]

Knowley i have to agree with you 100% and changes like these are errors they should have learned from earlier since they already made these mistakes all the way back to release with the old leveling system and it shows overkill still haven't learned that these changes they are making are unwanted and not appreciated like the armor up change or how mask mania had numbers that were too high for their player count just like the old leveling system that limited how strong the player could be because leveling was unbearablely slow because of the insane numbers they put on challeneges players will always want to be optimal and use strong builds or abilities that's why we would rather sit in a bathroom and shoot enemies brainlessly thay's why abilities like armor up and ammo funnel are being changed pointlessly and why mask mania failed Overkill doesn't care for the fun of the people theyre selling the game to they are just trying to make changes to the game to make it different from payday 2 when the reason anyone has stayed with 3 is because they loved 2 and want 3 to be just as good but it just won't be if overkill can't figure out that people want the game to be fun

[@SteakCutStraws]

Payday 3 is in an incredibly precarious state, just now getting on its feet thanks to Boys in Blue and Starbreeze just kneecapped it. That may sound hyperbolic, but I think it's utterly insane that they're committing to just not listening to us. They've done nothing but take half measures, consistently dragging their feet in response to community feedback, constantly getting in their own way. If Almir and co. want us to stick around and "not come back in 2 years" they should be making the game something worth playing right now.

[@FrostyTFE]

i hope they can recover payday 3, has so much potential

[@TheKknowley]

Me too!

[@user-mr6tg1yw2g]

They simply don't wan't to. Look at this shit. We are nearly a year in and they still struggle with shit that should be solved within a day one Patch or atleast in the first month.

[@simonm6546]

@@user-mr6tg1yw2g have faith. everyone keeps forgetting pd2 wasn't what we remember it to be for a long time. but they worked on it and it turned out great. remember the original skill trees were not the same in pd2 as it is now. they might not be the fastest learners, but they pulled it off once before.

[@user-mr6tg1yw2g]

@@simonm6546 yeah and i was patient with Payday 2 People were also patient with Payday 3 just to get once again fucked over. They do that again and again and refuse to learn. But ofcourse we need to be patient. I can ne patient but they also want support i really don't see why i should support them if we get just fucked over and over. Also great that we start this whole shit again with Payday 3. Would be nice to see some of the Experience they made with Payday 2. But nothing. We start again at 0.

[@Bigsean74]

@@simonm6546 just because payday 2 was bad at launch, doesn’t mean payday 3 should be. They should actually learn from their mistakes instead of actively making them worse.

[@franzmaier4231]

Isn't there a simpler way to balance Ammo Funnel and Replenish by making them independent of each other? There was a bug at launch that did exactly this, where Replenish would not trigger Ammo Funnel but add the ammo to the reserve instead. And Ammo Funnel would only trigger for the green boxes on the ground. Which i actually though was a feature back then because it's a pretty good way to balance the combo.

[@cthulhurage4580]

Payday 2: fun power fantasy that could be enjoyed casually or hardcore min/maxing Payday 3: sorry but the funny badgers in my head wont let me make the game right because it keeps screaming "MAKE IT MORE REALISTIC" and "make heisters WEAKER!"

[@nocturnalangel8056]

Nah I'm done that was the only thing keeping me coming was how fun that skill made the game

[@goodSuperman]

This video just reminds me of the time when Modern Warfare 3 zombies mode gave the zombies more health and someone tweeted "Who the fuck was complaining about zombies health the zombies?"

[@SharplyDressedPlagueDoctor]

i need to see that cuz thats funny as fuck

[@blueyandicy]

​@@SharplyDressedPlagueDoctorlooked everywhere, couldn't find it :(

[@PodClips213]

Or the nerfs to the weapons Bro the zombies were pissed tweeting about how op the flamethrower was

[@Crj0m]

I don’t understand why they even have SBZ partners if they don’t care at all about their opinions.

[@Pooplefarts]

I feel like they could fix most of the issues with this system by removing a lot of the edge,grit,rush requirements and then reducing the total amount of skills by grouping a lot of skills to be bigger skills, which can require multiple skill points. To get something more similair compared to what Payday 2 had. I don't think Payday 3's skill system is gonna work in the long run, it's just gonna keep becoming more and more obfuscated.

[@thewhistler6537]

I hate having just that much extra shit on my screen too! The HUD just feels cramped and I hate having med kits and armor repair packs scattered everywhere. Too bad they weren't clever and just gave us a customizable wrist watch that displays information needed. Use the inspection button to look at the watch to see how many bags are stolen/left, how much time the heist has been going on for and even teammates info just to clear up my screen a bit. My bad, I went into a small rant. I'll just end it with, I agree. 🤣🤙

[@gamstore]

instead of nerfing the meta, make everything meta - they havent heard of that saying before

[@ciphergacha9100]

It feels like the cutting shot and precision shot buffs a few updates back have scared starbreeze off giving any meaningful buffs, the only one I can think of since is misdirect

[@Mafoozalurg]

when I'm in a sinking my own ship and shooting myself in the foot competition and my opponent is starbreeze:

[@ChhoffMusic]

It's unfortunate that they're funneling resources into removing features instead of improving upon them. Payday 3 is in it's essence a great game with an amazing gameplay loop, but it's halted by the developers focus being drawn in the wrong directions. I sincerely hope this change doesn't go through, it would be a shame to see one of the more active skills become another passive skill that we mindlessly pick up because we've got nowhere else to throw our skill points. Thanks for the great video, always nice to hear your thoughts. :)

[@glitchedpersonality]

I'm getting borderlands 3 vibes... At the beginning, things just kept getting nerfed until things began to power creep, which led to over buffing of things that were nerfed at the beginning. I hope payday 3 doesn't go down the same road.

[@breezy3176]

Maybe then payday 3 will actually have something fun in it

[@woblewoble]

I think the biggest thing is that they're still not quite sure what their vision for the game is, and the systems they have are too neutral for them to push in any given direction. Initially, they were going for a more grounded, intense, attrition-style heist gameplay, more akin to PD1 and Heat, but the reception put a damper on that. Additionally, I don't think the skill system is done in a way that's conducive towards that goal. They want to give players the freedom to buildcraft, but because they want things a bit more grounded the skills can't be too over-the-top and players will naturally try to exploit whatever systems they can to trivialize the difficulty and gameplay. Honestly, I like the attrition/scrappy feel of the game as opposed to others. On higher difficulties, when you're not min-maxing and playing super optimally, it's a grand old time as you scrap through by the skin of your teeth. I think they need to go back to PD1/2 style where they more clearly group skills together into intended modes of play, have some guts to force the player into more specific playstyles rather than showering us with a glut of skill points to have a little bit of everything.

[@MrNoob969]

Just came back to payday 3, 3 weeks ago looks like I’m taking another couple months break with that new change

[@rogofos]

"you nerf this skill and players move on to other alternatives" such as payday 2 and rockay city

[@anangrywizardbanana9117]

This reminds me of the patch notes in Rainbow 6 Siege, no uniqueness between builds or operators, no fun except what is allowed and triple stamped by the "balance" team. Starbreeze is just shooting itself time and time again.

[@PodClips213]

As much as the r6 team hate fun Starbreeze is worse

[@Peroxide01]

Fun fact: On most guns, the speed pull mag actually decreases your weapon's ammo pickup, and on some weapons the compact mag increases it. This means it might be viable to use compact or extended mags over speed pull to better chain together kills. Of course, nowhere does starbreeze actually says it affects pickup, so it's fine if you didn't know. Now that nuance is all gone. Back to speed pull, sweetie!

[@bandofbrothers2358]

i was stupid to pre order the gold version of this game. ive never been more disapointed with a game as i am with payday 3. first my pre order bonus didnt even come through for weeks after launch, then the gameplay was worse than payday 2 and to top it all off the level system made playing the game unenjoyable and a chore to even play. im done with this game

[@bazel2765]

Dude, I like went through the stress of min maxing my xp gain by trying to do my challenges as many at as possible at a time even to the extent of dragging out sessions to get more kills with weapons I didn't enjoy using, after a week I got my goal of unlocking Gold Chrome, hopped off for a few weeks and boom they completely ripped out challenges for an actual good system finally but if that was what we waited so long for, why hadn't they done it sooner? It's my fault I played the game because it took me so long to get that much xp then a few weeks after, a screenshot I made of managing to get enough challenges done I had to scroll through the challenge completion at the end of the heist, (it was 1 160 xp BTW) to then have them rework it so that I can get 1 160 xp in a single match of cook off, just makes me feel like not even playing the game sometimes so I can wait for enough people to complain about something so they listen only when the pitchforks are at the door and implement something that should have been there day one. Tldr: I pre-ordered gold edition too and funnily enough, punished for playing it so early. Games lately have a habit of punishing you if you pay more at this point.

[@BonnBuns]

I think they need to add more... actual variety that's fun (that doesn't require just... playing in a way were you feel like you're spinning plates) before actually even THINKING about doing something like this.

[@Ravepirate]

At this point i feel they should just cancel PD3 and move PD2 over to the new engine - Its just such a disaster

[@plebisMaximus]

That would take as long as just making a new game. Fixing PD3 would definitely be easier.

[@UmiZoomR]

Rose tinted glasses for sale, buy em here, rose tinted glasses

[@thereseemstobeenanerror1219]

​@@UmiZoomR Do you really have nothing better to do than just harass random users?

[@UmiZoomR]

​@@thereseemstobeenanerror1219 Cry about it and git gud nub

[@BossManOnePro]

I find it strange that they do not more heavily consider the concerns of the partners, as they are some of the people who play the game the most. They have some of the best knowledge on how players feel about the game and how the game is actually working at the time. Can't teach an old dog new tricks, I guess.

[@lswgamer]

Every balance change made by swedish devs should be accompanied by a in-game poll where players can vote if they like the changes or not. If 75% of the players do not like them, the balance team should be fed surströmming. That'd solve issues like this and Helldivers's lickety split.

[@RaidenWithBiden]

HD2 is getting better, we've got multiple weapon buffs and stratagem buffs. PD3 although is a clownshow.

[@MegaBallHD]

PD2 skill system when ?

[@Rempai420]

They should just remaster payday 2 at this point. They can just lazily port the maps over like they did with cook off and call it a day.

[@distorted_heavy]

Never lol

[@inoob26]

kinda confused why they didn't just made Funnel a active skill where triggering the condition gives you X seconds of the original effect and put it into a cooldown after the duration is up

[@Zyrvaria]

I think the real problem here is that starbreeze doesn't have enough levers to balance skills with, seeing as all skills cost the same they should all be about the same power level. it just makes me think about how in retrospect the payday 2 skill system was really damn good. Having playstyle defining skills that were borderline if not actually OP was fine as they needed real skill point investment

[@temdrik3920]

They need to fire their game designer, this is unacceptable at this stage

[@dooderman8361]

The easiest way they can improve the skill tree in this game is by creating more weapon specific perks. Like you said all the perks pretty much apply to all weapons, in PD2 you had good skills for LMGs, good skills for snipers, good skills for shotguns, etc. you need that ability to spec into a given weapon class

[@trumpeterswan8175]

I think the problem is a fundamental problem of the skill system. if every skill has the same 1 point cost with 28 skill points total, than everything has to be balanced around that fact, meaning any combo that takes 2-3 points could be put into any build without much consequence or consideration. If there were 10 points, and ammo funnel costed 4 and replenish costed 3, it wouldn't be a problem(as much as 'having fun options' is a problem) since it's required a massive investment to use. The skills sysyem needs a fundamental overhaul to actually allow for 'fun' playstyles, other than pure meta builds. Also the fact that RAID:WW2 got a skill overhaul before payday 3 is bloody hilarious.

[@IsaacClodfelter]

Just give us back the good skills from PD2. They were fun.

[@iicustodianlaw]

"your opinion, my choice" ahh company

[@GameRevo]

Feels like Starbreeze are eager to maintain the 'brutal difficulty, every enemy is a threat' appeal of PDTH. However, they already broke that one wide open with lines like Fortitude that feel hastily finished to placate angry players, and which completely upend the balance. I don't think they actually have the experience and skill to properly balance this game the way they want to. At this stage, I wonder if they'd be better off accepting that PD3 is best off becoming an overclocked, musuo shooter much like late-stage PD2, and just leaning into that appeal instead. At least that was fun. Also it is absolutely baffling that they're focusing their efforts on individual skills like this, when the armour system is a complete mess and affects every single build in the game. The overwhelming majority of players are using just one armour - the adaptive one that contradicts their core design goals, because those design goals are inherently flawed.

[@lordazurelpandora9879]

Gonna be real; I've been watching the updates to see if PD3 is worth buying yet (as a hardcore lover of PD2)... But hearing about the recent update notes has basically murdered my hope. How is it that they are still refusing to learn? The stubborn delusion of the decisionmakers, refusing to give up on their (flawed) original vision in favor of an actually fun game... I pray I'm wrong, but I just don't see a point in waiting anymore.

[@crabort]

The flat skill line encourages each skill to be basic and uninspired. Where as the skill trees in PD2 encouraged you to find what fits you and allows you to unlock OP shit towards the top of the skill tree.

[@vaporoussoda4515]

I think a good change for ammo funnel is that it PREVENTS edge or grit from resetting, edge by and large is already pretty easy to get most of the time so creating these moments of pure 15 second tear ups would be great and have people need to think about their next item or weapons because they don't need to reset edge

[@KoolGamer6000]

I personally believed ammo funnel and replenish were broken because they not only eliminated the need to get ammo as a resource, but they were the only few skills holding the game together especially since launch. I believe at either one or the other had to exist and not both, but in return they have to offer something that makes surviving in this game better. To this day i hate the armor mechanic and stuff like adrenaline and dodge being added makes me feel like they arent tackling the real problem with this game

[@BRG857]

It always just seems like one step forward, two steps back for them. I mean sure the perk combo is a bit overpowered, but it doesn't come close to what you could do in Payday 2 and I see it as a fun way to incentivize engagement and aggressive play.

[@Kero-zc5tc]

Even worse I think is precision shot, like because of that one skill the meta is literally a scoped shotgun where you don’t even want to aim, just scope to get the damage buff. But that doesn’t seem to alert their senses

[@ciphergacha9100]

I would like to add that I think there is one time people would identify a build by Ammo funnel, the infinite mosconi build that was one of the first metas in this game before the precision shot buff

[@badoof7803]

they could have just made ammo funnel require both edge and grit and it would have also become more close range oriented as enforcer is already the most close range oriented skill line in the game. this could have been the de facto shotgun setup and i wouldnt have complained. hope they add something similar to ammo funnel in the future but id rather it not get to payday 2 levels of powercreep.

[@DrStryde]

My latest opinion on Payday 3 has arrived.

[@ActuallyMori]

Annnnnnd thats the nail in the coffin.

[@jessegd6306]

I dunno, coffins these days can fit a looooot of nails.

[@nexifylazer2915]

The only youtuber Who Won’t let go of payday 3 🙏🏻

[@arko612]

I struggle to understand what is the point of nerfing skills or weapons in a PvE game unless they are fundamentally broken. These were features that were well received and liked by the community. Instead of nerfing avenues of fun why not buff other stuff to have additional sources of fun. They are just trying to go back to a bullet sponge horde shooter at this point. I loved PD2 but the current state of PD3 makes me feel like they dont know have fun playing their own game anymore.

[@backlawa7527]

hoping for a massive skill rework in the future cuz its probably the only thing in terms of gameplay that i dislike

[@TheMaddestMan1]

the people behind payday 3 seem to always take 1 step foward 3 back and its not a trend i enjoy seeing as this game had so much in the beta to work off of and it feels worse than the beta at this moment

[@RedArcherLive]

Spot on.

[@walale12]

Hope you're doing ok bro, hear the Twitter mob took umbrage at you daring to criticise St. Mio's balance decisions

[@heretics_archive]

You aren’t overreacting even if this change does nothing to the game and isn’t even noticeable it doesn’t matter because it just goes to show that they aren’t listening this game has many issues that have been brought up time and time again and they seemingly ignore those to add pointless nerfs that harm them in the short term it’s not necessarily about the skill change it’s about the fact that they knew people weren’t gonna like it and they did it anyways

[@pyrobutdecaf]

For the longest time I used ammo funnel on its own, and I was fine not having replenish. I now realize how powerful it is, and while it is the weaker skill of the two, maybe replenish is the one to take the hit? Idk just spit balling an idea

[@plushiepenguin]

It's kinda funny how often this is pointed out and its just called "whining" or being negative for the sake of being negative.

[@skeley6776]

I find Knowleys solution very funny because its very similar to how PD2 deals with skills its nearly like PD3 should have been PD2.5 ...

[@mjtrout1111]

Bc I like the reload animations, I don’t use ammo funnel lol

[@cptshelly]

It feels like their missing the thing that made payday 2 iconic, the clowning around. Like I say it as a joke but also actually meaning it. Like we had a giant spoon that was meta for a bit , need I say more. It can be saved but idk if they got the stuff to pull it off , I truly hope they do I'm waiting to get payday 3 till I see it's up to snuff. They also need some of the power creep of payday 2 , just genuine "numbers go up" kinda stuff. Making it feel more meaty and all that

[@Alfr3d_F]

I know I am alone in this, but what I really really want in Payday 3 is the option to move items around in the inventory. I don't mind them changing a skill I did not look at on the first place. I am currently not playing Payday because I don't feel like it. I'll swing by to check Houston Breakout, but I'm essentially going to copy some "current best build" without looking. In any case, I prefer stealth and those skills are pretty much straightforward.

[@Buddy4911]

My job of getting to get friends to play pd3 just got harder :D

[@somerandomgamer8504]

@@Buddy4911 I wouldn't inflict that upon someone I consider a friend, seems like cruel and unusual punishment

[@ExpertAtAll]

Go try Darktide or something those guys are actually listening

[@ninochaosdrache3189]

​@@ExpertAtAll I would if it had an offline mode