Peak Torque on Bike Marketing, Real World Aero Savings and Hookless Dangers

Is they bike industry a big SCAM? Hookless Rims are the most dangerous technology we face and what (if any) bikes are good value in 2023.
Nero Show Featuring ‪@PeakTorque‬
Huge thanks to Alex from Peak Torque for spending some time with us answering all the questions we have been discussing on the show over the last few months. Alex has an experienced and unique view of the bike industry, something we leant on in this discussion.
Check out Alex's Channel: / @peaktorque
Chapters
00:00 intro
00:30 Industry marketing claims
14:21 Have We Reached Peak Aero?
18:23 What's Going On In China?
23:07 Industry Quality Control
31:07 Hookless Disaster
44:03 Are New Bikes a Rip OFF?
52:00 Carbon Spokes
1:00:00 What Tyre Width Is Fastest?
1:14:06 A KZbin Engineer
1:23:14 Hambini vs Peak Torque
1:26:41 Pro Cycling Watt Bombs
SUBSCRIBE On KZbin: bit.ly/2gMWc1t
The Nero Show is available on your favourite Podcast platform
Spotify:
open.spotify.com/show/0UEODvA...
Amazon:
music.amazon.com/podcasts/285...
Apple Podcasts:
podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast...|-unfiltered-cycling-podcast/id1659229051
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
INSTAGRAM: @chrismiller27 @nerocontinental
TWITTER: @chrismiller @nerocontinental
STRAVA: / strava
Check Out Jesse's Coaching: www.nero.club/coaching

[@PeakTorque]

Credit to these guys! Turned this around very fast. Can confirm that Chris can get it up very quickly 🎉 even as a cyclist Few comments to add: The easy answer to the 305W NP questions is - it doesn't get easier you and everyone else just get faster. The avg. speed of the bunch I bet has gone up I bet over the years. Secondly, Mr Bigham has been on the phone to say every GC leader should ride an aero bike. While the CFD says deep in the bunch there is up to a 95% drag reduction, the ride files don't show that, which he has access to :) Some more comments about tubeless - the tubeless center channel depth is really important when it comes to safety, yes you can make it deeper for easy installation (and the bead seat diameter can be the same at the wall) but if the bead slips down into the deeper channel under total pressure loss it is equally easy for the tyre to come off!

[@WishTheMorrow]

😈

[@matthewbenger8355]

🍆

[@datadrivendave]

I've been hoping for this one for a while. Great to see you on; and I loved that you grabbed the calculator as soon as Jesse started asking watts numbers :D

[@HoldenDoesBikeStuff]

I’m here to confirm Chris can’t get it up. Jesse tho? Rock hard.

[@goldenretriever6261]

Gay.

[@jonathangriego7334]

How is this podcast just getting better and better?! This is probably my favorite episode so far. Please have PT back on again. Great job boys!

[@dominicmunson4480]

He said it! “You can’t cheat the physics” should be PTs tag line 😅. Great episode

[@littlemrdrummer]

PeakTorque has my full respect. Sending it with humility, honesty and facts. Very very rare in this world of KZbin.

[@henriqueratz]

Wow, this was my absolutely favorite episode! Great job to all 3 of you. As an engineer, I am in absolute awe of how well Alex can explain such complex topics and make it seem so interesting. He is a fantastic teacher. Keep up the good work with the podcast guys! you're absolutely right, the goal is to generate the conversation, and not cover 100% of the details.

[@ChrisMillerCycling]

Our pleasure!

[@adammillsindustries.]

If he grew a mullet out he’d be an absolute god!

[@future62]

I started this thinking "no way am I gonna get through an hour and a half".... got to the end like "wait yall are done already?" Great stuff, pod keeps getting better and better.

[@Hambini]

Me: 2 KZbin influencers find peak torque more attractive than me. Hairdresser: They must be men!!!

[@IanGilchrist-bi7dk]

This was the best episode yet-hands down.

[@raphaeltiziani7476]

and one with joe china cycling

[@condorito93swe]

The episode we’ve all been waiting for! You guys are absolutely killing it, best pod on cycling YT.

[@hiddeg7461]

Finally

[@xball89]

Truth!

[@marcvb3364]

Probably one of the best episodes you've done. Thanks for all these amazing insights!

[@ChrisMillerCycling]

Wow, thanks!

[@SherazChoudhary]

Loved the longer format and being able to hear Alex's viewpoints on multiple topics. Alex's depth of knowledge came across even better than it does in his own channel.

[@ChrisMillerCycling]

Great to hear!

[@pantster9855]

Thank God someone has finally pointed out that aero savings in the bunch is basically zero. Imagine all those pros choosing the aero bike and sitting in the bunch all day. Thanks TP

[@BreakawayB]

🔥These KZbinr collaborations are always the best episodes.

[@abhimawa1]

Interesting discussion. As an F1 analyst, Ive bern struggling to understand this ‘aero’ issue, all of sudden bike manufacturers, and especially many cycling enthusiasts I met on the road becoming aero experts. In F1, even big names like Scuderia Ferrari, Mercedes, McLaren DO make mistakes in understanding aero. Those teams have enormous budget & state-of-the-art wind tunnels & R&D by reputable engineering teams. Not to mention carbon layup, where to make it stiff & where to ‘cheat’ (heard of flexi wing?). This is a very good video with substantial discussion 👍 The real reason enthusiasts want aero bikes is because aero bikes are neat looking.

[@NikeonaBike]

Correct, fact of the matter is, wearing a pair of $25 aero socks reduces drag by more than the SL8 Roval stem and bar combo, but people want the bike anyway because its prestigious.

[@oldguyandabike]

Excellent. You guys keep raising the bar on vid podcasts that are worth watching.

[@ChrisMillerCycling]

Glad you enjoy it!

[@oldguyandabike]

@@ChrisMillerCycling Very impressed with the 'common man' application from PT. He is only the second guy I have heard mention the 'stacked springs' idea on a bike and that things are too stiff most of the time. I have a saying that I think applies to most situations and most people riding a bike: "Smoother is faster". I do a lot of gravel riding, often on review bikes, carbon wheels, etc, and that really is a case where compliance is nearly always faster overall. And I am just now planning a new road bike build and contemplating 32s and a shallow carbon wheel for road. For where I live and how I ride, I think it is a smart choice, but I keep getting distracted by the 'shiny rocks' that modern bike marketing tosses out. We shall see. Thanks for the food for thought.

[@rskng]

This show seriously needs a disclaimer of “we’re just guessing but try to keep it entertaining”.

[@SinPhi666]

I think a good example of a large rider who focused on system aero was Adam Hansen. He would ride the Helium over the Noah with negative stem, wild drop to the 38cm bars all to get low and narrow. Did have the 35mm bars for stiffness/weight (sponsor), imagine that would be integrated now if it could be had with the negative stem.

[@HoldenDoesBikeStuff]

Great episode boys! Well done. Learned a lot about my own BS a few times in this. I gotta stop being a cycling diva lol

[@philipk4475]

@PeakTorque I believe you misunderstood the analysis WRT the venge vias. It was 2 mins faster compared to what it replaced (Specialized Tarmac SL5 I believe). Then the venge was a smidge faster and the SL8 is claimed to be a smidge faster still. That's all with respect to the SL5 Tarmac, not the venge vias.

[@philipk4475]

Edit: great video! loved it, what a star line-up of guests you've got on here Additional comment: The Hefron Park analysis has a faulty premise. CMiller is able to do 305 W normalized for the race, and with a faster bike he's just going to be going faster for that same power. His placings might not have improved much (if at all), because his competition will have also been slowly upgrading to more aero bikes (presumably). What I'd like to see whether the average speed of these races has tended to increase over the years, because with constant normalized power that would be indicative of aerodynamics having improved overall.

[@FaiscaaaH]

I hope you guys paid attention, "smaller, slimmer the front tire the faster you go" the rest is pure marketing :P I am still using my 23mm oldddddd continental GP4000 until they rot, after that i will test the GP5000 TR like Alex told us to do :)

[@mitchlabrador]

This was one of you best! Such an interesting conversation. Thanks guys.

[@nockee]

Great work pulling in Peak Torque. Such good information.

[@ChrisMillerCycling]

Glad it was helpful!

[@whackachangchangable]

I'd love for you to dive into your hefron park data set and see if the speed has changed over the years. If everyone else has swapped from round tube bikes to aero rigs over the last 10 years then maybe everyone is still pushing the same power as always, but the pack is going a little bit faster? Rather than expecting Chris's watts to drop as if he's in isolation and the only one on a faster bike. Potentially the same reason why pro races have gotten a bit quicker over the last 5ish years.

[@neilashton9459]

I had the same thought listening to this. And to measure if a bike is “faster” the power input would have to be a controlled constant.

[@neilashton9459]

Love the show but wish Jessi would fix his camera. The image is always reversed in the split screen shots ( but correct inthe solo shots).

[@jasonmurphy5780]

Great episode gentlemen; easily in the top 5 of all-time for the Nero Show. Recommend at least quarterly collaborations with PT. I’m personally a big fan of PT as well. I think your approaches to subjects relating with our sport are complimentary. Presents a very researched approach & useful contrast to questionable industry directions. Again, very solid episode! Cheers!

[@ChrisMillerCycling]

Great suggestion!

[@HoldenDoesBikeStuff]

Lol y’all are 100% talking about me with the whole “But tbis is made specifically for this frame!” *Looks over at my Reserve Wheel and Soloist*

[@danielfrancis6900]

Great content! Best video yet. Excellent questions and discussion. It’d be great to see Peak in the regular rotation of guests.

[@tomasberka2124]

Simply and incredibly - this was awesome, guys. Could listen to you all for 8 hours...easily. So much learned, explained, discussed. Please make a follow-up or next episode with Alex in the future, if you can. Will be waiting for it.

[@CrabgrassFarmer]

So good to have PeakTorque on the show. Great job! This was the bomb!

[@johnnydarko8031]

you guys continually get the best guests KZbin has to offer. Officially THE BEST cycling podcast EVER. Kudos.

[@romankarabutin3781]

Awesome job guys🔥 it was a joy to watch! Keep on the good work👍🏼

[@Ghostina1]

On of the best shows i have seen in this channel! Peak Torque is elevating yours in Galaxies

[@cyc00000]

One of the best editions so far fellas. Thanks!

[@kurtleitch5240]

Great guests coming on guys. Nice work, keep it coming!

[@fritz324]

Awesome episode! Keep up the great work, it's always the one video of the week I'm looking forward to

[@ChrisMillerCycling]

Glad you enjoy it!

[@seligseligabc123]

Bloody heck I don’t remember a more engrossing informative discussion as this one in a long time. Spot on..🎉.

[@andrewdoig4034]

Best and most compelling one yet. Thanks for putting this together.

[@KikouLOL6702]

Thank you for this episode. I really enjoy the coversationnal yet educationnal style.

[@p504504]

Listened to the podcast but came here to comment: this is one of the best if not the very best episode of any cycling related podcasts I have ever heard... Up there with the early Silca (Josh) marginal gains episodes. So much free game from a guy with a lot of knowledge. ❤ I love you Nero Show keep up the good work!!!

[@mikelogan2684]

BEST SHOW so far Thanks PT,JC and CM

[@96golfcl]

Could listen to Alex talk bikes & relevant engineering practices all day. Stellar guest

[@ricardostao]

Solid episode, awesome. thanks guys!

[@ccuebas19]

Loved this one! Thanks guys!

[@global_nomad.]

started watching but didnt think i'd stick for 90mins...and here I am at the end...great conversation, thanks to all....PS my University lectures are rambling observations too...but with solid knowledge and experience 😉

[@bykr2009]

Wow, one of your best shows ever. Very informative and you guys asked some great questions.

[@lukasschlieker383]

Forgot to commend last week but just wanted to say the bikeotic channel is awesome and I’m glad he got a shoutout!

[@gwinter00]

Hookless: thank you for confirming my suspicions. Still the best cycling talk podcast. 👏

[@elchram]

Favorite episode ever! Well done guys and Alex is such a great guy I could listen to him for 3h

[@Fresh79999]

Alex is just someone I could listen to for days. Clever guy.

[@AleBrex]

Was waiting a long time for this one! Super interesting conversation. Hope PT can hop in again soon!

[@nigelsmith4403]

Great episode there guys, so may interesting topics - bit like a myth busters show, with a true subject matter expert! You have set the bar extremely high for yourselves now.....

[@johnsfulton]

Great show, fantastic debate on the bike industry and the mechanics of the bike.

[@CycoWarriorx]

I enjoyed this discussion… probably one of the best you’ve done… I hope you have Alex on again…. 🍻

[@ChrisMillerCycling]

I hope so too!

[@JbRRR]

Thanks for this content, really great stuff !

[@user-wd8qm5hl8l]

I quite like PT in this format. Definitely one of the best episodes so far. Would love to hear Bikotic on the show and listen to Chris and Jesse pick his brain on frame geometry and western brands that are sharing moulds.

[@danthxman]

Is it just me confused at the start of the vid? Is it not the venge spaceship with the dodgy brakes was 2 mins faster than the previous bike that was never named? So the SL8 is only 12 seconds faster than that original venge?

[@the318pop]

It was the Venge Vias. It was never compared to the original Venge upon release, McLaren and Specialized carefully chose to pit it against the Tarmac.

[@the318pop]

In other words, the SL8 is allegedly 33w faster than the Tarman SL4

[@marshallh9]

Jess Coyle may excel as a bike rider but not in the empirical sciences. As you point out, what is the original datum, a house brick!

[@chrismadge7292]

Another really interesting video - thank you. I leant a lot listening to that.

[@ExplorinDoranRBrown]

Glad you got PT on! Have him on again soon and longer! Im working through his back catalog and heard him make a reference along the lines of: This the type of thing that gets Jesse from the Nero Show all fired up. And I thought, ahh! He is aware of the boys at Nero.

[@psnSupergrobi10]

Great episode! This has become probably my fav cycling podcast in the last few weeks

[@ChrisMillerCycling]

Glad you enjoy it!

[@jhl5303]

Very interesting, especially since you got in really deep in some subjects. What i like the most about you is that you don't repeat the mainstream marketing crap many goes on and contributing to creating a mutual agreed truth about stuff without questioning.

[@db613]

We all love Alex! 👍🤙

[@mrwezbo]

Supurb job Chris with the show in general, but also the top-tier lineup of guests you've managed to get on recently. Shows the respect the youtube cycling crowd is showing the Nero show.

[@ChrisMillerCycling]

We have been very lucky have these guys reaching out and keen to be apart of the show. Alex is a pure gent

[@martinkroutil]

Excellent stuff and amazing info. I could listen to you three guys all day just geek out about bikes.

[@ChrisMillerCycling]

Glad you enjoy it!

[@greg4318]

Congrats - the channel has come of age, get Hambini on next 😬😬😬

[@andybals216]

Wow ..that was the best I've ever watched on any KZbin video..well done

[@Kazyole]

I'm also curious about how exactly the claimed aero gains are arrived at by specialized. I assume they always use best-case scenario testing procedures to make the numbers as large as possible and ignore real world practicalities. For example, SL8 vs SL7 they claim 4w from the integrated bar/stem alone (incidentally almost exactly their overall 40km ITT number). But probably 99% of riders who will ride that bar will put computer in front of the bar, which then moves the leading edge of the bike forward of the stem/bolt interface on the SL7. I would imagine if you tested both bars with a garmin mounted, you'd find less of an advantage for the fully integrated setup than if you tested without.

[@javiermartindiez9857]

Great great great podcast, we need Alex back again. Thanks Chris and Jesse!!!!!

[@neilmckenna236]

Brilliant guys, and great to hear Alex views 👏 👍

[@hockysa]

really love and respect what Alex is saying in regards to how we can't see aero and aero testing (caveat being Adrian Newey 🐐) as well as bringing in aero packages and how they interact with the whole system including the rider. The whole aero system was also something Newey mentioned in his book how to build a racecar. Very open, critical and inquisitive engineering view.

[@charlesmansplaining]

I am generally one of those commenters that piss on every video I watch about bikes and tech, but I never have had the urge to be negative from watching Peak Torque, Hambini, or this channel. You guys are top rated IMO and this video was very captive and interesting for me. A lot of what was talked about in this video are things I have been saying for years and have been put down for for saying. It doesn't bother me because I have been cycling longer than most cyclists are of age. One thing I did listen to was the Italian idea of cycling comment and I totally found funny because I don't feel the Italians are all things good or do it the best anymore and people who think they do are fools. Italian bikes ones especially Colnago aren't any better than a cheap Chinese brand anymore. Great video, loved watching it.

[@ChrisMillerCycling]

Thanks for that Charles. We were lucky to have PT spend as much time with is. Thanks for the positive comment 🙏🏼

[@BurntToast1]

Well done gents, fantastic chat. Appreciate the editing effort, Chris - I imagine it’s not easy to achieve with the timing lag when chatting between continents, but you were able to edit that brilliantly. Also, Alex does know his audience.. winspace hyper wheels rider here 😂

[@ChrisMillerCycling]

Hey BT, thanks for the kind words on the edit, I can confirm the lagging was ‘challenging’ 😉

[@deltagchemistry12]

This pod cast slaps love the Nero show

[@jonnythelegs2597]

This podcast scratched so many itches, great job guys. And yeah Hambini does love a bit of trolling but i have a couple of chats with him away from the youtube scene and he does come across as a sound guy to me, i dont drink but would happily have a pint or two with him. I kinda wish Mike Burrows was still around, he used to visit Bikefix a lot when i was there and had some great chats with him he was such a nice guy and i would love to put PT, Hambini, Dan Bigham, Allen Millyard and Mike Burrows in a room together and just listen to them put the world of cycling to rights and see what they could come up with. That would be my bike engineering dreamteam.

[@highfived]

My father has been working with carbon as a engineer for years all this bikes are extremely overpriced. Plus I know two bike owners who tell me what that bikes cost to Make and the crazy mark up sale prices in bike stores. I get this information as I work in finance for one of biggest banks in the world. The whole industry is a rip off. The only way the prices will come down is if consumers refuse to pay this ridiculous prices

[@larryt.atcycleitalia5786]

"...will come down is if consumers refuse to pay this ridiculous prices" And that will only happen if somehow marketing bullspeak stops working. PT Barnum was right! Marketing trumps everything - how else can you explain the success of Specialized and SRAM?

[@tomstephenson5452]

100 percent agree I have the 2018 old canyon aeroad rim brake, and I have ridden the new expensive disk brake bikes and the canyon is by far better and faster … aero, 7.0kg with ultrega di2

[@miche_amico]

Fascinating chat! In particular, the quality control, hookless and tire width portions. And hearing Ganna's power data doesn't mean anything to me but Chris' reaction tells me what I need to know.

[@ChrisMillerCycling]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@volkervoit]

Awesome video and discussions, one of my favorite ones in past months 👍opposing to Jesse's recommendation I actually did a 740km / 25h non-stop ride on my Hyper 65mm wheels and survived 🙂

[@elchram]

Yeah no problem with mine either but I ride on smooth Swiss Tarmac so 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@MichaelBoogerd]

I found this channel couple of years ago through Jesse's training videos and enjoyed the content as Nero Racing Team trying to crack Europe - but the re-branding to a chatshow/topical podcast style channel has me staying on waiting for every video. Great show guys!

[@ChrisMillerCycling]

Awesome, thank you!

[@derekkuhl]

How is it that I watched for an entire 90 minutes? Very nice work guys. Very interesting and thoughtful! Thanks. I guess I will be following @peaktorque now. 😂

[@KetzalSterling]

Superb. The cycling industry is a total mess. Endless unproven BS claims. The whole community benefits from people like Alex. This is the direction you guys should target. Real talk. No marketing/sponsor shilling. Actual science backed information. Same as what Jesse does with his training content.

[@mbastos1000]

The best ever episode! Keep bring this other islander to the show! Three islanders on a talk show as hosts and another one watching them (Hawaii)!

[@ozgurinsan]

Very good show. Love it.

[@MateusMartinss]

Thanks for clarify which bike PT was referring to in this video on your instagram account! 🙏🏻

[@xaviermelendez2639]

Really great episode, insightful and compelling argument against all the marketing claims from manufacturers. #dontbelievethehype

[@discbrakefan]

Very interesting show this week guys. Alex clearly knows his stuff. Cycling is a really awesome sport because there’s so much to it, it has a discipline to suit everyone, there’s all sorts of tech, training and fashion and things to talk about and argue over. Cycling is life.

[@ChrisMillerCycling]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@willemvandenbosch3992]

Hats off gents…amazing content

[@lisashiela9137]

Awesome video fellas. Loved the topics...

[@ChrisMillerCycling]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@stefanozurich]

Great show. Specs thanks to @PeakTorque

[@HarishChouhan]

I’m glad you are bring smart people to chat with.

[@edwarddruitt7521]

Yeah Im with most here, you absolutely killed this one. Great guest and you guys are clearly starting to settle into the feel of your podcast well. Had to laugh at irony of Alex telling you no one listens yo video over 10mins as you and him punch out an awesome 1:30!

[@whynotride327]

One of the best and most informative videos I have watched in a long time.

[@ChrisMillerCycling]

Glad it was helpful!

[@nsjohnston]

I had a set of Radial tyres on the bike once, Vittoria diamante I think. They required upwards of 135 psi if I remember correctly. They were very fast rolling, and squirmy as hell. They wore out in around 300 miles too. They were folding, no metal bead and no metal inserts.

[@sneakycycles]

I've done a 400k Audax ride on carbon spoke with a 25c tire and there was no issue in terms of comfort. I think the issue maybe more so in the frame and rider position. I was on a SLC 2.0 in my standard training/race set up - only things I would have changed would have been to flip the stem up and add aero bars for more hand positions. Also would move my cleats back as I had a few hotspots.

[@mikeloncoski5574]

Great again. You guys are nailing it.

[@ChrisMillerCycling]

Thanks again!

[@davidsips9532]

this is such good stuff keep it up guys

[@ShawnIsBatman]

Absolutely incredible video!! I feel vindicated having purchased my latest bike as a used bike!

[@jordyjohnbaptiste1067]

I really enjoyed learning aero topics that Alex mentioned.

[@tonylo6013]

New fan of Alex as soon as he mentioned Winspace Hypers. 🎉🎉

[@JordanHammond7]

How cool is Alex. Never seen his stuff before.

[@bitchoflivingblah]

Re: LTWOO electronic groupset, Dave Arthur made a very good point in that if you add in the other things you need for a complete groupset, ie the cranks, the Shimano 105 Di2 is actually a better buy.

[@PeakTorque]

Yep completely agree on that one. Its too expensive to be a challenger