Penal Substitutionary Atonement

[@ultraskinpro]

That was awesome! I've listened to a few (pro and con) videos on The Atonement. (PSA sounds like such a human contrivance.) In the OT Israel was to practice a system that included many acts of "penal substitution." And in the New...? "Behold the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world!" Thanks for a concise, humble, biblical overview of The Atonement.

[@TheCreepypro]

may our Lord be praised for saving us from HIs own wrath!

[@readthebible7429]

“Jesus died "for" our sin, but the English word "for" can have a range of meanings, such as an exchange or a cause of action. There is a specific Greek word that can be translated as "for," indicating an exchange or a replacement, and it is the word "anti." An example of this is when Jesus said, "You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for [anti] an eye and a tooth for [anti] a tooth.'" Both of the words translated as "for" in this verse are the Greek word "anti." It's literally, "an eye in place of an eye," or "an eye instead of an eye," or "an eye against an eye." However, the word "anti" is never used even once in any statement regarding the fact that "Christ died for us." The word "for" in all of the statements of "Christ died for us" or "Christ died for our sin," are the Greek words "dia" (meaning through), "hyper" (meaning over), and "peri" (meaning around). Not once in the Greek text is there a direct substitutionary statement used about Jesus literally taking our place as an exchange or a payment. Nevertheless, translators (for unknown reasons) seem to have preferred to use the much more ambiguous word "for," which enables the teacher and reader to assume things about the text that were never intended.” An excerpt from Chapter 12 of the book “Atonement and Reconciliation” by Kevin George.

[@collin501]

Christ died through us Christ died over us Christ died around us Those Greek words have a range of meaning. So what do they mean? How would you translate it?

[@readthebible7429]

@@collin501 "Christ died because of us." "Christ died regarding us." "Christ died through us." A common reaction of many people is to disbelieve the evidence against Penal Substitutionary atonement, as the only reason they have heard of for Jesus dying is to pay for our sins. This ignorance is demonstrated by their exasperated question which typically is something like this: "If Jesus did not die to pay for our sins, then why did he die?" Here is a list of numerous reasons, along with their Bible references for further study. This shows many reasons as to why the death of Jesus was part of God's plan, and none of them include a payment to God for sin. If Jesus did not die to pay for sin, then why did he die? This is a common question. It demonstrates how little is taught in relation to the death of Christ - as if it was only about sin and satisfying God's wrath. Listed in no particular order: 1. God wanted a faithful man to take Adam’s place. 1 Corinthians 15:22, 45-49, Philippians 2:8-11 2. To reconcile us to God. 2 Cor. 5:17-21, Ephesians 2:13-16, Romans 5:6-10, Colossians 1:19-22 3. To be an example. 1 Peter 2:21, 3:18, Philippians 2:4-10 4. To stop sin. Matthew 26:27-28, Mark 10:45, Romans 6:6-14, 1 Peter 2:24, Galatians 1:4, 2:21, Titus 2:14, Revelation 1:5 5. To defeat the powers of evil. Colossians 2:15 6. To become the firstborn from the dead. Romans 8:29, Colossians 1:18 7. To supersede the Mosaic law with a blood covenant. Ephesians 2:13-17, Galatians 3:13 8. To express God’s love. John 3:16, Romans 5:8 9. To set us right by faith. Galatians 2:21, 2 Corinthians 5:14-15 10. To defeat death. Romans 6:9, 1 Corinthians 15:26, 2 Timothy 1:10 11. To triumph over the power of sin. Romans 6:10-11 12. To crush the serpent’s head. Genesis 3:15 13. To bring resurrection. 1 Corinthians 15:20-22 14. To draw others to himself. John 12:32-33 15. To become our High Priest. Hebrews 10:19-22

[@collin501]

@@readthebible7429 those translations are okay but I’d like to hear more of what “because”, “regarding”, “through” are doing. They need context. I’m actually not big on atonement theories, PSA included. I prefer atonement facts, like you are doing. I might list different ones or put them a little differently. But I would include a ransom or redemption for sins. Hebrews 9:15 says “by means of death for the redemption of the transgressions.” That seems like payment language to me. The redemption payment, to me, relates to the law, to sin, and to the devil. The law is meant to bring an end to sin and the devil. Both the devil and sin and us are brought under the law, (the devil uses it to accuse), and sin uses it to deceive, and then Christ dies to judge sin(Romans 8:3) and the devil and frees us. I think Christ suffers the curse of the law undeservedly when we deserve it, but not in the same sense as PSA though.

[@readthebible7429]

@@collin501 A literal ransom and redemption payment results in absurdities if carefully thought through. For example, consider “redeemed us from the curse” (Gal. 3:13), “redeem those under the law” (Gal. 4:5), “redeem us from all lawlessness” (Titus 2:14), and “redeemed from the empty way of life” (1 Peter 1:18). None of these statements involve a transfer of a payment from one party to another. They are all figuratively picturing a release. Jesus did not make a literal transaction with anyone. Jesus redeemed us (set us free) from the addiction and bondage of sin so we would be the servants of God and display God’s righteousness. For this reason, God is just and righteous in passing over our former sins (Romans 3:25). Psalm 74:2 is a good example of both “purchase” and “redeem” being used as metaphors: “Remember Your congregation, which You have purchased of old, which You have redeemed to be the tribe of Your inheritance; and this Mount Zion, where You have dwelt.” The point here is that Israel belongs to God because God is the one who directly intervened to do what was needed to liberate Israel from bondage. In Psalm 74:2, the psalmist is praying and requesting God to remember that Israel belongs to Him because it was He who set them free from their bondage. A similar verse is Exodus 15:13, part of the song of Moses immediately after the Red Sea crossing: “You have led in your steadfast love the people whom you have redeemed; you have guided them by your strength to your holy abode." Again, the word “redeemed” is being used to show freedom, liberty, or release, not a payment. Moses himself is said to be the redeemer in Acts 7:35 “This Moses, whom they rejected, saying, ‘Who made you a ruler and a judge?’-this man God sent as both ruler and redeemer by the hand of the angel who appeared to him in the bush.” Moses was their liberator as God’s agent. The use of “redeem” as a metaphor should be obvious, as it is frequently understood with the meaning “to liberate, to free”, and not to pay. The blood of Christ is mighty precious because it is the basis of our covenant with Christ and our loyalty to him. In contrast, if blood is reduced to a mere substance for bartering with God, then it cheapens both the blood and the holiness of God. The atonement is primarily relational, not legal.

[@collin501]

@@readthebible7429 so I hear a lot of assumptions but it’s not self evident why what you’re saying is the case. I didn’t follow the logic of there being absurdity with an actual payment. I don’t follow how it reduces holiness. Keep in mind I never said God had to have it to satisfy himself. However, you’re not making any more sense out of it to me. What does Christ’s death do to/for our sins?

[@formerfundienowfree4235]

God does not have wrath to vent. God is Love unchangeable and has no opposite. PSA is man's ego distorting the meaning of the cross.

[@timothyvenable3336]

Could you explain “God does not have wrath to vent”?

[@formerfundienowfree4235]

@@timothyvenable3336 wrath is a human emotion, a product of the ego. God doesn't have an ego. God just is.

[@timothyvenable3336]

@@formerfundienowfree4235 but there are many passages of scripture that say God has a wrath and it is being or will be poured out on people/the world. How do you understand those passages?

[@formerfundienowfree4235]

@@timothyvenable3336 according to the Bible the consequences for the "fall" involve a toilsome life here, painful childbirth, mortality etc. As far as I'm concerned we are serving our sentence now. But certain authoritarians wanted to use fear to control people so they distorted the loving message of Jesus. Also God cannot suffer. Holding back wrath is the epitome of suffering. God is either love or God is wrathful. There is a strong biblical case for universal salvation. Love doesn't cause pain. We cause our own pain not God.

[@timothyvenable3336]

@@formerfundienowfree4235 oh okay I think I’m understanding your position. Thank you for clarifying

[@PaulLee-rs8uw]

Genesis 2:1-3 ( The seventh day, God(😊100%❤) rests) "2 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God (😊100%❤)finished his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had done(😊❤). 3 So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it God rested from all his work that he had done in the creation."( Genesis 2:1-3 ESV. Amen that God rest then we rest too. Sunday rest. In Jesus'name, i pray( here I come to Church). Amen) Matthew 2:13-15( The flight to Egypt) "13 Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, " Rise, take the child( Jesus(😊1st❤)) and his mother(😊❤), and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you, for Herod is about to search for the child, to destroy him." 14 And he( Joseph😊❤) rose and took the child(Jesus😊1st❤) and his mother 😊 by night and departed to Egypt 15 and remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, " Out of Egypt I called my son."( Matthew 2:13-15 ESV. Amen. Jesus(😊1st❤). I know and trust You God that you really love me so i put my faith in Your Son, Jesus(😊1st❤) to love God and your people in Christ. In Jesus'name, i pray( John 14:6😊❤ and Matthew 28:19-20😊❤ ). Amen. John 14:27😊❤

[@PaulLee-rs8uw]

Matthew 28:19-20😊❤Genesis 2:4-24😊❤ (The creation of man❤ and woman❤) Genesis 2:4-9 "4 These are the generations of the heavens and earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God😊❤ made the earth and heavens. 5 (a)When no bush of the field was yet in the land and no small plant of the field had yet sprung up- for the LORD God has not caused it to rain on the land, and there was no man ( Do you also see how thoughtful and organize our God is when he prepared everything like formed heavens and earth( Genesis 1:1b) , created light( Genesis 1:3) from darkness. Genesis 1:3 " And God said, " Let there be light, " and there was light. "( ESV). And created from day 1 to day 6 to prepare everything for human beings from day 1 ( light and dark) so day 4 have( Lights( sun) of day and night( moon and stars) Day 2 ( sea and sky) so prepared habitants for day 5( Fish and birds) Day 3( Fertile earth e.g fruits trees, vegetation, plants ) to match with land animals' needs too for Day 6( Lands animals( including mankind's needs. Do not get me wrong in this for animals and human being are two . Our God created animals first then man and woman later remembering so to me in Christ human beings are distinct from animals but we human do live on lands so under land category in Christ. ) Then Day 7 God rest and enjoyment. Pause to share learning in Christ. God is good. He created location( e.g. 1. Light(Genesis 1:3,4a,5a)and dark( Genesis 1:4b-5,5a ). Day 1 2. Sea and Sky (Genesis 1: 6-8) Day 2 3. Days Fertile earth( Genesis 1:9-13 ) Day 3 4. Lights(e.g sun) of day and night(e.gmoon, and stars)( so lights of Day and night= Genesis (1:14-19 and18-19) in Day 4. 5 Fish and birds( Genesis 1:20-23, Day 5) Day 5. 6 Land animals( to me , humans are not animals but animals are animals but human beings are human beings in Christ. God created fruits, vegetatation and plants in Day 3( Genesis 1 :11-13 ) and provide also created land- animals( Genesis 1:24-25) then He created man and woman in his image ( Genesis 1:26-27) He created human beings( Man( Adam, 1st) then woman( Eve, 2nd, a helper to Adam ). Again I respect both man and woman in Christ. Now is it's time for me go back to Genesis 2: 5 a to Genesis 2:5-8 "5 When no bush of the field was yet in the land and no small plant of the field had yet sprung up- for the LORD God has not caused it to rain on the land, and there was no man ( do what? ) to work the ground, 6 and a mist was going up from the land and was watering the whole face of the ground- 7 then the LORD God formed the man of dust( pause. yes, dust. Try to not shower for few daysn and then rub your skin then you will understand what is dust is in Christ. I been there many years ago, but today of course we take shower once and twice a day for work in Christ) from the ground and breathd into his nostrils(or nose) the breath of life, and the man became a living creature( human being). 8 And the LORD God planted a garden in Eden, in the east, and there he put the man who he had formed( or created). 9 And out of the ground the LORD God made to spring up every tree that is pleasant to the sight and good for food. The tree of life :) was in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil(no good)."( Genesis 2:4-9 ESV and all other parenthesis parts and symbols in Christ also for and in Christ Jesus too in Christ. Proverbs 19:11😊❤ Proverbs 12:16😊❤ Proverbs 15:18😊❤ Proverbs 20:3😊❤ Proverbs 17:14😊❤ Proverbd 26:17😊❤ 1 Peter 4:8😊❤ Proverbs 10:12😊❤ Proverbs 17:9😊❤ Psalm 103:8-10😊❤ Ephesians 4:2😊❤ Colossians 3:13😊❤ Ephesians 4:32😊❤

[@readthebible7429]

“The wages of sin is death" must be read in context with verse 22. Romans 6:22-23 "But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." When read together, the consequence ("the fruit") of being "set free from sin" is eternal life, and the wages, the consequence of sin, is death. These two results are being contrasted. The phrase "the wages of sin is death" is not a transactional statement of how to pay for sin. Wages are a metaphor for consequences, not a method of payment. Nevertheless, this one phrase is a keystone of the Penal Substitutionary Atonement doctrine, as if it is intended to state that the event of Jesus' death was the means of how the sins of humanity were paid. This proof-texting of a phrase to use as a basis for defending the PSA theory is a sad display of sloppy scholarship, even by those who are otherwise excellent scholars in their own right. For more textual examination like this, look for the book entitled “Atonement and Reconciliation” by Kevin George.

[@mattr.1887]

Ah yes. You save yourself by making a deal with God.

[@HearGodsWord]

That's not penal substitutionary attunement

[@timothyvenable3336]

Who believes that? Other than non-Christians lol

[@formerfundienowfree4235]

If Jesus' entire ministry is important, why so much emphasis on Paul who according to his own writings was not even familiar with Jesus' ministry as he never even quotes Jesus.

[@matthewsouthwell3500]

1 Corinthians 11:23-25 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread; and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.” - Do you have any other obvious lies that you'd like to throw out, which can easily be refuted from the Scriptures?

[@BibleGod]

Be careful not to think that God actively poured wrath on Jesus. Jesus suffered our sins under the curse in this world, not the next. The curse here, is manipulated by bad people. God still used it, to make His sacrifice.