People Are Cheating In Nintendo World Championships: NES Edition

[@Abyssoft]

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[@bggamingdeluxe5658]

we get it we get it

[@poonsamurai]

FYI, it would be fairly trivial to create a frame perfect macro with a controller running GP2040-CE in Switch mode. Macros are a feature, can easily be defined on a frame by frame basis, and iirc, it should be possible to specify simultaneous opposing cardinal directional inputs. It would just take a bit of work to add the inputs via the controller web config Interface, or possibly to convert the tas inputs into the JSON used by the GP2040-CE config store; then simply upload it via web config. Plug in the device, trigger the macro, that’s it. Obviously cheating is not the intent of the feature of the firmware, which caters to a wild multitude of different input devices for different platforms and genres, but i don’t see why it couldn’t be abused in this manner on a bone stock NSW.

[@KiraSlith]

I have to wonder why anyone really cares. NWC was never a legitimate speedrunning platform in the first place, especially given Nintendo patched a bunch of the best speedrunning strategies these games have with their bull "Strategy unavailable" auto-failing system.

[@LavaCreeperPeople]

1

[@TBRHS]

i wonder when there will be a video for "People Are Sponsoring Brilliant On KZbin"

[@RonTheTryhard]

>Unmoderated online leaderboard >Cheating Who could have predicted this

[@MommaDusk]

Reminds me of the first time I saw RE4 times on the unmoderated leaderboard the game shows on PS4. Almost stopped me from even trying runs of the game

[@neobahumut707]

Ikr. I'm not the least bit surprised

[@Rain1]

Name a more iconic duo, I'll wait

[@Alfred-Neuman]

>Game about Speedrunning >Doesn't allow Speedrunning strats

[@Rain1]

@@Alfred-Neuman lol nice

[@rtyuik7]

"...and don't even think about using AutoFire, or I'll know..." -- Revolver Ocelot

[@ShadwSonic]

_proceeds to DQ people who were just that good at mashing_

[@kingti85]

​@@ShadwSonicDid that really happen?

[@ShadwSonic]

@kingti85 Yeah, the benchmark used for that event to detect Turbo is actually feasible without Turbo. Not easily mind you, but enough that Ocelot is guilty of many false accusations.

[@kingti85]

@@ShadwSonic lmao I would be so pissed 😭 That's pretty funny, though thanks for learning me something today 🙏❤

[@generallyunimportant]

@@kingti85 "learning me something" is one of my favorite phrases i think

[@rompevuevitos222]

Reminder: while the yuzu team was DMCAd, the emulator itself and its use/development is NOT illegal. The DMCA came from actions done inside the emulator, but none of them had the legal weight to succeed (no, reverse ingeneering propetiary software to make your own reproduction is not illegal, and in fact, trying to stop such an act would violate anti-monopoly laws). The argument used to win the case was about stuff they did OUTSIDE the emulator, so there is nor has there been anything suggesting that the emulator is illegal.

[@MasterHigure]

Exactly. IIRC, there was internal communication in the Yuzu team talking about using it to play ripped and pirated games, or something along those lines. If they had been less openly open to that use case, Nintendo would've been powerless here.

[@dooplon5083]

​@@MasterHigureiirc a number of the pirated games that they openly supported being used were pre-release too, like when totk leaked. They even had a piracy oriented secret channel on their discord

[@ericquiabazza2608]

That and they cash money from it. That is when the lawsuits begin flaying be ause it means the corpo is lossing money they could be getting. Like losing sells to a bootleg. BUT if the thing where free, then acces is masive, and lawsuits will only stop it temporarily. Afitionaly, there are 3 types of people who consumes free pirated stuff 1-Those that CANT Afford it 2-Those that cant GAIN ACCES to it 3-Those that concider it to NOT BE WORTH its "market price" This includes those who Refuse to pay by personal desicion

[@BryanLu0]

​@@dooplon5083iirc the patch for TotK can from a third party not from the Yuzu devs I think it was because they had public instructions on how to get decryption keys

[@dooplon5083]

@@BryanLu0 never said that they made the patch but either way giving out instructions on his to get the keys is still supporting the leak (and yes this was one of the things they got sued for)

[@ijustsawthat]

If you can heat your NES on a frying pan to achieve better times, then you can use a rubber band to mod the controller.

[@CptJistuce]

Or use a controller with rapid-fire. But I don't believe hot plate runs are allowed by western speedrunning communities.

[@PopeRogerFree]

If your okay with using a rubber band then you have to be okay with rapid fire. They're both controller modifications.

[@Trismegustis]

... What. I can't find anything with those as search terms, what the FUCK did I miss?

[@CptJistuce]

@@Trismegustis Try "hot plate" instead of "frying pan". Also add "dragon quest". It's a JP speedrun technique. If you get a FamiCom running Dragon Quest 3 hot enough, it corrupts your save in a beneficial manner. (I believe the key component that needs to overheat is actually the SRAM on the cartridge, but we can't modify the cartridge by mounting a heating element to the SRAM, right?! So we have to bake the entire FamiCom.)

[@Trismegustis]

@@CptJistuce *how is that not modifying the console* Boy, can't wait to see TASBot do that at a GDQ. Thanks for the info.

[@ddnava96]

Ignore the controllers with Turbo/Rapid Fire. My 8bitdo Ultimate has MACROS. I can literally create a macro that alternates Dpad left and Dpad right for 5 frames and assign it to a button. That way I can just press the button and automate specifically that action while still having free controls for the rest of the game

[@CptJistuce]

Mmmm, macros. An old feature that's never gotten the appreciation it deserves.

[@polocatfan]

that might be considered cheating since it's a third party controller.

[@CptJistuce]

@@polocatfan Not by Nintendo! Get a place on the leaderboards, you're good!

[@ddnava96]

@@polocatfan I'm not saying it's not cheating. This whole video is about "How could they have cheated?" and a controller with macros is potentially the best way to do the Zelda trick, but op didn't even mention controllers with macros. I honestly believe this kind of controllers should've been mentioned in the video

[@zheta42]

Yea, I was thinking the first thing mentioned was going to be macros…🤷‍♀️

[@SpectreXS]

2024 and the Turbo Controller debate goes on. Some things never change.

[@doesthiswork28]

a tale as old as time :^)

[@Perceptious37]

just make it two separate categories. 🤷‍♂

[@NaokiKurogra]

@@Perceptious37 Nintendo isn't going to make categories tbh, and since NWC is entirely handled by them, most that could be done is a subset of people clarifying what of the stuff submitted to NWC should go into which categories if they existed.

[@RevinSOR13]

Turbo, turbo never changes.

[@NillKitty]

Also Nintendo sold/sells controllers with turbo so why would they negatively target people actually buying their products

[@JimMilton-ej6zi]

I'll be real with you, in games like this you're never going to find a fair score if you try to do leaderboards. This is a game exclusively meant for people to play with their friends and family and compare each other's scores that way.

[@KingBoo97]

Most of the top times of these leaderboards are real. There's just a couple cheaters, Mander probably being one of them since he was already a known cheater from other games. It's pretty unfair to doubt every top time you see just because there's a couple players who cheat.

[@impactomapache]

@@KingBoo97 just because they are on top doesn't mean they are not cheaters... it has proven multiple times over the years lol

[@zanon3362]

@@KingBoo97 Leaderboards get hacked, all the time, every time. Resident Evil 5 is a game I have played the ever living heck out of, and you can go visit any leaderboard they have right now for story run times that are absolutely impossible, and score based runs where the number is essentially infinite. No leaderboard can stay sacred forever.

[@KingBoo97]

​@@impactomapache I know for a fact that almost every time in the leaderboards of this game is real, and it's really unfair for legit players to doubt everything just because a couple players are cheating.

[@KingBoo97]

@@zanon3362 My point was that it's extremely unfair for legit players to doubt every very good time in this game just because a couple players are cheating times. Also, it's not possible to hack an impossible time in this game because of how the system works with the inputs and replays, so it wouldn't be possible to submit a 0 second time for example, every submitted time is technically possible, the only doubt is if it's TASed (or done with turbo or that kind of stuff). Some ingame leaderboards like the Mario Kart 8 Deluxe ones work very well too and don't have hacking or cheating problems at all.

[@sinom]

"since [yuzu] was dmca'd it's incredibly hard to find" Looking at the emulation wiki and immediately finding 5 different links to 5 different yuzu forks

[@Roxas6662]

It is insanely easy to find. You are right. He is ridiculous claiming it's hard to find. A simple Google search will give you everything you need. Then he seems to say because it's illegal, it's hard to get the files needed. It always has been the difficulty. And it never got harder. Try harder. Holy hell.

[@Bupboy]

To be fair here, yuzu _was_ taken down, and _is_ hard to find, he never said anything about forks (and for the sake of not being drone striked by nintendo, probably intentionally omitted them)

[@lpnp9477]

​@@Roxas6662 to be clear, yuzu is not illegal. No opinion was given in court. Nintendo owns the original code now, but forks made before this are not owned by Nintendo.

[@Chocomint_Queen]

"Playing on Yuzu would be a huge legal risk" lol what is he actually talking about

[@pentexsucks43]

​@@Bupboy But to be fair, it isn't hard to find lol. Looking up "yuzu archive" gets immediate results

[@Bro3256]

I think there's a bit of cultural context that's required to understand why Japanese players for the most part are fine with using turbofire features in these games. Back during the days of the Famicom in Japan, Takahashi Meijin was the face of video game competition in the country famous for his 16 shots per second rapid fire used for shoot-em-ups like Star Solider. Hudson would later release Joycard controllers for the Famicom that allowed for auto fire input and later when the PC Engine released in Japan, later consoles featured auto fire so its due to those influences that auto fire is seen as an accepted strategy even today where-as overseas its seen as "cheating" due to the way it was marketed to us western players.

[@dxqx3794]

The PC Engine was especially unique because it allowed for 2 rates of turbo (fast and very fast) since certain games required this. Frustratingly, all the new PC Engine controllers made don't replicate this feature, which is a shame because certain games play better with these 2 rates available.

[@tomboy_kisser]

That... didn't explain anything... "40 years ago 1 guy was supposedly the face of video game competition-" do you have any idea how common it is for people to lie and say "x is/was the face of y," "x has taken the entire internet by storm (a mere 1mil views, many of them repeats and autoplay)," etc, only for that to not be true 99.9% of the time? "So since I say he was popular 40 years ago and a 3rd party non-Nintendo JP company released turbo controllers, that is why when 3rd party non-Nintendo American companies released turbo controllers, JP players accepted them and US players didn't." ??? There's.. no difference whatsoever though which illustrates the 2nd point you attempt to make?? "Hudson would later release Joycard controllers ... so that's why auto fire is accepted in JP" "Many US companies released turbo controllers ... so that's why auto fire is not accepted in US" ???

[@AndrewBlechinger]

It's still a thing to this day to play arcade shmups without using auto fire, just pure button mashing skill. A year ago, I even saw a clear of a Cave shooter called Mushihimesama done this way. The other thing you have to understand is that without fancy techniques like rolling or trilling, 16 taps a second is about as fast as anyone has ever managed.

[@SpeedyGwen]

as a kid I had a megadrive controller with turbo functions because it costed less than the official controller, I often had mouses with autoclick functions built in, I never understood the idea of saying that those functions where cheating, its a native function of many software and hardware so most people have acess to it anyway

[@crimson-foxtwitch2581]

@@AndrewBlechingermany official releases of shmups end up having autofire buttons now given that arcade operators would wire them themselves

[@skormfuse]

A thing to always keep in mind is Turbo is a built in option for official licensed input devices for the switch meaning in terms of hardware use of turbo could never be considered cheating in any official product. as it's a function they not only officially signed off on they even sell it in their own first party store fronts.

[@doesthiswork28]

this i honestly still find crazy, i never knew that, you never stop learning i guess lol

[@CptJistuce]

Turbo fire is available on officially-licensed NES controllers too, but western NES speedrunners almost universally consider it cheating. Heck, the Sharp Famicom Twin Turbo had turbo-fire on the hardwired controllers.

[@johndiddilyjoe6258]

Players decide what's "cheating." Can I compete against Xbox players on PC because they're both officially licensed Microsoft products? What about games with cheat codes or even debug menus? Those officially came with the game, so I guess its fair that everyone just cheats. Maybe, just maybe we decide what's cheating based on fun and competitiveness.

[@CptJistuce]

@@johndiddilyjoe6258 For the purposes of Nintendo's leaderboards, Nintendo decides what's cheating. Different bodies of players can, and have, come to different conclusions about cheating in the same game on the same hardware.

[@johndiddilyjoe6258]

@@CptJistuce The comment I was replying to didn't specify the Nintendo leaderboards. It was general. Even with that said, what Nintendo considers cheating really doesn't matter. Players make up the leaderboards, and players compete with each other. If someone gets a WR and Nintendo considers it cheated, but the player base doesn't what happens? Do Nintendo's rules overwrite consensus? As long as you stream your run and upload it to a legit leaderboard, Nintendo has literally no say or authority. Players are the governing body for speedruns. You won't ever see Nintendo doing an investigation to find out if a run is legit or not.

[@andleepfarooqui7874]

ngl I don't think it's cheating if turbo is officially licensed by Nintendo. just a different ruleset.

[@Zyart]

Didn't the Metroid Dread community agree to use Turbo, because the alternative was risking hand injuries?

[@CptJistuce]

The western NES speedrunning communities have always(to my knowledge) considered turbo-fire to be cheating, despite licensed controllers with the feature. Hell, the Sharp Famicom Twin Turbo had the feature present on the hardwired controllers.

[@cmantheninja]

@@Zyartyes I remember that. I stopped trying to speedrun the game because my thumb would be in pain from the final boss, which is about 4 minutes of spamming shoot. Before the final boss there is a mini boss that also requires spam

[@AraennaLeane]

yeah, as a disabled person who *can* mash speedily and accurately, the things that are and aren't accepted as cheating baffles me. like, is it cheating if i have something hold down "a" bc time trials in mk8 don't allow auto-accelerate? i'm hypermobile, would it be cheating to use my toe to hold a button down? i honestly think that, as long as something like that is disclosed, it should be allowed. i wonder if it's considered on a case to case basis when used for accessibility.. also, why have i never considered using my toes before?

[@ITR]

@@CptJistuce Yeah, but this is not a community controlled leaderboard, so what they think doesn't really matter.

[@marufranco5281]

Videogame TAS scientists trying to figure out how they cheated and slamming their heads against the wall. Meanwhile some guy: "Hey guys have you tried reading the description of the video?"

[@Econasdf]

Turbo controllers are endorsed and sold by Nintendo, it can't really be considered cheating. The same thing happened with the Mario and Sonic Olympic Games leaderboards a few years ago, times started pouring in when people realised that they could use Turbo's on some of the events to get inhumanly fast times. A lot of the top players in the scene (me being one of them) were upset and didn't like the fact that our hard work had been beaten by a turbo controller, however, because nothing could be done, we ended up just purchasing and using Turbo's ourselves to reclaim the WR's. It's just a part of the game unfortunately.

[@rphntw1n]

The community rules decide the rules. Not Nintendo.

[@RADkate]

@@rphntw1n to bad Nintendo controls the actual leaderboards ingame, womp womp

[@MrFatsluttytone]

Yea but not all games are NINTENDO WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS with global leaderboards

[@Kilthan2050]

The IRL olympics decided not to allow a man with artificial legs to compete because they actually gave him an unfair advantage in races, but he was allowed ro compete in the special olympics. What we need is a turbo used leaderboard.

[@nobodyinparticular9640]

@@RADkate tell that to the hackers, lmao

[@MSOGameShow]

"People criticize me by saying, 'You're telling people how to cheat!'." You're providing people with information. It's up to the people listening to decide how to use it. I wish people understood this.

[@SerabiiBot]

It's like putting a steak knife in front of someone on the dinner table. They could use it to cut their steak and have a nice meal, or they could use it to shank you.

[@LavaCreeperPeople]

​@@SerabiiBotlol

[@tziirkq]

Honestly, if it comes to using a rubber band to achieve the same effect, just use a turbo controller.

[@Broockle]

i think it's funny 😆

[@ac31048]

With the sheer amount of controllers (1st party, licensed 3rd, bootleg, custom, and accessibility) the definition of 'legal' controller is becoming very grey.

[@CptJistuce]

The definition of "legal controller" has almost always been a fan convention with little true authority. In this case, the only opinion that matters is Nintendo's, and it seems clear from how hard the game works to block popular glitches but does nothing to interfere with rapid-fire, that they don't mind the tactic.

[@tylisirn]

@@CptJistuce As demonstrated at the end of the video, how would you block autofire without blocking legitimate button smashers? Humans achieved the same level of speed as the autofire using stock controllers.

[@CptJistuce]

@@tylisirn That is another point. One could look for regularity, as machines are much more precise in their turbo than humans. But there will always be some level of false positives.

[@supercrownjosie7732]

not cheating. in a speedrun for Mega Man 2, turbo/rapidfire is cheating because it's against community rules. these aren't community leaderboards, so policing people using officially licensed controller options is silly.

[@orions2908]

16:55 it doesn't? Where did you get that conclusion from? Nothing you just said implicates on the japanese community frowning upon turbo in nwc

[@skatersirian]

I like how the video creator hadn't responded to this comment.

[@byrondejong9872]

The guy used a turbo controller and said he used a turbo controller from the start. You can debate if using it is cheating or not but don't assume people are cheating using TAS or other means when it isn't argued in the video.

[@ericquiabazza2608]

The problem was this. The video reach not japanese eyes, yet the person executing it inform he was using especialize hardware, this however did not reach with the video very clearly. Causing the xonfusion if there was any modification and if it was kept hidden. The kept hidden is what matters. In this case was because of misscomunication.

[@Mosz]

@@ericquiabazza2608 Nintendo officially licenses hardware designed for cheating? If not then it was not "specialized hardware."

[@vladimirchizhov3260]

​@@ericquiabazza2608 This

[@totallynoteverything1.]

@@ericquiabazza2608 tl;dr westerner moment

[@SilimSavertin]

Western Speedrunners: YOU'RE CHEATING Japanese Speedrunners: Mald harder lol

[@LLInnovA]

It wasn't just Mario Kart Wii. Mander was also caught cheating in Mario Kart Super Circuit in the early 2000s

[@Jaymez2012]

This is Nintendo's problem, and honestly, something that the community shouldn't have to tell Nintendo to regulate. It's their officially released game with built-in, official rulesets in place already. Not an officially released game with arbitrary rulesets slapped on top of it by the community itself. If Nintendo thinks turbo controllers are fine, then that's that. If they don't, that's fine too. I'd rather just have Nintendo actually feel like they're fully involved with the community then what they always do which is routinely have one foot in the door and one foot out, or just condemn a community they helped create in the first place. Realistically though, that's probably exactly what they'll do with this topic and no doubt any other issues that will crop up down the line with this game.

[@Azureshock]

For a video that explicitly says people are cheating, I'm getting a firm takeaway that nobody here is actually cheating.

[@reunionreunion2386]

Asagi go fight ~

[@esrohm6460]

its easy, official hardware allows it so its allowed. you may want to split leader boards but if a controller with extremely wanted abilities gets forbidden why should any glitch be allowed. its another thing if there is only 3rd party turbo, but when nintendo gives it its as much part of the game as remapping buttons is

[@Zeppeli0]

I love playing this game with friends and family at my house, we fight like dogs over miliseconds

[@ShuckleII]

sociopathy

[@alienraven]

If literally cooking your console to get a glitch to happen isn't cheating, then useung a turbo controller definitely isn't.

[@WillaGem]

Soo Nintendo allows turbo controllers and they openly said they were using turbo??? NA speedrunners obsession with rooting out cheaters to the determent of any other consideration is what's going to do speedrunning in mark me

[@Abyssoft]

One person said they were openly using turbo to test if it would work on the leaderboard, as they wanted the competition to be fair and give everyone the knowledge that turbo was being used by cheaters.

[@chrisrockett5897]

Ong

[@AnimeFrankReynolds]

"yuzu is hard to find" good one.

[@americaonline3835]

his face when i download a yuzu fork and play sonic frontiers for free (now it's no longer hard to find)

[@raitoiro]

So no one cheated (at least in the example shown here) turbo is a legal function of some controller, people can dislike it if they want but that does not make it cheating.

[@gamesake999]

True techinically it was not disallowed.

[@polocatfan]

clickbait

[@lordomacron3719]

Some games even just separate it into its own category. And have records with Turbo(or whatever the equivalent term) and records without use of Turbo. Depending on how much it affects overall gameplay.

[@ibilesfighter3.16]

Your going straight to hell if you do use turbo but it's not "cheating" so fair enough

[@Patashu]

If Nintendo wanted to ban rapid fire from their leaderboards they could have easily detected it, they didn't, so it's fair game.

[@nemannerous2556]

"オレコマンダーならOK", which you translated as "It's OK by me" actually says, "It's okay if they use the 'Ore Commander'." The Ore Commander (Or "Me Commander") is a product by Hori that adds turbo function to any controller. Well, any finger. You attach it to your finger, and it turns on a vibration motor when you bend it. There's a link to it in action here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/oobUmJ2Inb1rfsU

[@Abyssoft]

This makes sense, as I had no idea what the Ore Commander was and thought it was getting translated to mean something like "it's ok by me captain" I guess it's still agreement to the point though, so I only got the specific wrong, thanks for pointing this out

[@Sleepyhead080808]

Here before KZbin's UI gives me the exact timestamp to skip to the end of the ad.

[@kirigherkins]

me when I swallow the brick to preserve momentum

[@timephire]

We can never have nice things...

[@mack4691]

Perhaps the zelda 2 frame perfect alternating dpad presses is done with the switch's accessibility option? In some game engines if you hold both left and right down, only the latest one registers, so you'd only have to hold one down and tap the other.

[@musickid43]

Or use joy cons where left and right are literally separate buttons.

[@nobodyinparticular9640]

Could also just be some crazy joycon drift lol

[@FezTheSpaceBiker]

I don't know what speedrunners expected from a game with unmoderated online leaderboards on a console where turbo controllers are easily accessible.

[@chrisrockett5897]

The people behind the consoles even ENFORCE said turbo controllers.

[@MarlowPreston]

Did you delete the comment accusing the video of being click bait? KZbin is such a cool site with how I cant tell who between the uploader, commenter, or KZbin itself decided a comment needs to go.

[@toumabyakuya]

How is the video clickbait?

[@Ren99510]

Removing comments that contain baseless lies and accusations is perfectly fine in my book. If anyone is calling clickbait on this they literally have no idea what that word means.

[@orions2908]

@@toumabyakuya no one cheated

[@toumabyakuya]

@@orions2908 That's subjective. They could have cheated or they could have not.

[@neoqwerty]

@@orions2908 Go ask speedrunners if third-party turbo controllers are okay or not/cheating. I guarantee you, you're gonna start a small war in most communities and cause leaderboard splits for others.

[@LlamaRed]

This game was fun for the first few weeks, but now I can’t come close to getting the trophies in competitive play anymore. It’s the same with every online game, when you leave the casual level of play, at least for me, it stops being fun.

[@functionatthejunction]

It was the exploiters tat ruined it for me. I didnt mind going up against pros and losing to superior skills, but to cheaters? Nah.

[@BlueArremer]

I don't think a game like this was ever going to be casual. It's sweaty by design.

[@ngcf4238]

You mentioned Mander and I immediately thought of the MkWii guy and I guess he is the same lol. 4:55

[@DoinThatRag]

Remember when the Yuzu team was going to announce connectivity to Nintendo's online service and other Switches and everyone had to walk them back from the ledge? This is a great example why, besides the massive bulls eye they were putting on themselves. You might as well call Nintendo's lawyers and insult them. They never released it as a result of the feedback. But they were really careless, and didn't understand the balance between emu devs and companies that need to actually make a profit to continue making games/hardware. They were clearly young, and didn't take the time to understand where the lines have been previously drawn, and things you just can't do.

[@doesthiswork28]

classic yuzu lmao

[@Negi2468]

You can tas by emulating a generic bluetooth controller and an appropriate bluetooth adapter. It's not even hard and doesnt require modified firmware.

[@Negi2468]

You can even repeat the challenge multiple times until you get good rng or want to align on the correct frame

[@MrCheeze]

"Since the emulator was DMCA'd, it's incredibly hard to find." lol, lmao

[@CptJistuce]

Roflmao, even

[@sewerside01142]

Roflmaocopter, dare I say.

[@Guedez1]

Yeah... The controller is literally an official Nintendo product. I don't see how could you argue it's not a valid strategy. Heck if hardware modification like using a elastic band is fine, then using official supported hardware regardless of what it does is also fine.

[@JoLiKMC]

All's fair in love and leaderboards. If the game allows it, then it's perfectly fine. The resources, documentation, and technology is out there, so there's nothing stopping players from "getting good" and achieving TAS-like results. That's basically what I was told, *vehemently,* the last time I claimed this sort of thing was unfair, or argued against certain glitches and exploits _not_ being blocked in this terrible compilation of games. So, it must be true. 🤷‍♀️

[@cooltaylor1015]

Link's speed strat against Horsehead is the Zelda 2 equivalent to the Spin Attack

[@makotroid108]

Cheaters are weird people. I've literally watched one argue with a TASer in twitch chat about the run they copied of that very same TASer.

[@j.corbygaming]

Tell that to Pokemon VGC

[@turnkey_hole]

Huh

[@ValenceFlux]

I've seen them try to cheat on engineering exams. I got to thank the video games I played growing up helping me develop a sharp aptitude. I got to qualify for an engineering apprenticeship, study my brain out for exams, get to work with amazingly talented people and yet experience cheaters that wanted the status without the effort or responsibility of studying or earning it. Excuse my mini rant. I was a gamer before it was cool... lol...

[@turnkey_hole]

@@ValenceFlux who is them? Indians?

[@dannynhl9441]

@@ValenceFlux Those days gaming was better. In my mid 40's now. A lot more soul and fun in gaming back then. Only get it if you lived it. Street Fighter 2 boom in the arcades was also amazing.

[@DarkKyugara]

In my opinion, using Turbo isn't cheating. Since the controller is official from Nintendo, Nintendo could deny the functionality of the turbo in any game, but Nintendo didn't deny, therefore turbo was implemented meant to be used on the games, therefore using turbo isn't cheating since it's intended by the developers. My answer to this issue is the same as any other controversial strategy: Create two categories, one accepting turbo and one banning turbo.

[@Abyssoft]

One thing I'll point out, is that the controller was licensed by Nintendo, they didn't create it, Horipad did.

[@DarkKyugara]

@@Abyssoft But Nintendo approved knowing the turbo function was there. Thanks for correcting me, by the way.

[@DragonGrafx-16]

@@Abyssoft Nintendo did in fact make turbo controllers. Not in recent days but the NES Advantage, NES Max, and the Four Score multiplayer adapter all had turbo. But as you said in the video it was only for A and B.

[@Abyssoft]

@@DragonGrafx-16 Yes, that's all true but I'm specifically talking about the Horipad for the Switch in this comment :)

[@jazzabighits4473]

@@DarkKyugara using a horipad in general is cheating

[@ChainChomp5040]

"neither of these tools have been updated in 4 years" latest commit last year

[@mVic8]

Whoever is saying you’re telling people how to cheat needs to reconsider their whole worldview. Oh yeah, I just need to buy an SBC and spend hundreds of hours iterating my code to make it execute correctly. Anyone with the skills to do it didn’t need someone to tell them they could. Anyone who didn’t know that method exists should probably be aware of it so they understand that it’s possible & what people are willing to do to hit #1. Perspective is important!

[@RazaXML]

you said people ARE cheating, then don't show a single proven case of any cheating

[@sabotagefate69]

Officially licensed product by Nintendo for a switch game that the game itself also accepts. Yet another time the spreedrun community won't have any consistency

[@MK_Cheezy_Chicken]

4:38 as soon as I heard Mander’s name I new it is cheated. He cheated on MKWii in the early days

[@Zaburino]

The Nintendo World Championships: TAS Edition

[@kilikx1x]

The thing is that its not impossible for a human to do these inputs given enough practice and attempts. The pattern of 'Left -> Right -> Left -> Right' isn't exactly a complicated pattern and it would be far from the first time a human has successfully achieved hitting multiple frame perfect inputs in a row.

[@georgejpg]

9:42 me when i lie

[@andrewprahst2529]

It's possible to the NES Tetris "roll" on buttons themselves. In fact, I believe this was how the technique was first used, on arcade machines.

[@blzzz]

Hahah. New players have no idea how much speed runners know about a game. They really think they could just beat record times out of nowhere. 😂

[@Robert_D_Mercer]

bro I looked up a speedrun for gtasa since I played the hell out of it s a kid, I watched the speedrun and Im actually surprised kid me actually did things a few speedrunners did but it was just me just abusing the game for it was the only thing I had and I worshipped it as a teen lol. But for real, there's NO way a dude like me can just pick up a game and set a record. (I did get 12th in the world for the longest stoppie record tho, My bike glitched in the stopping position and I stayed there for an hour lmao, I suppose others did that in leaderboards as well because thats impossible to do legit for hours)

[@functionatthejunction]

Its more they expected what Nintendo pushed, an even playing feld where times would be determined by talent and reflexes, not by using exploits and cheats.

[@greenagoo]

Exploits do require talent and reflexes though It's still an even playing field. Anyone can learn to do these things.

[@percher4824]

@@greenagoo That's true as long as something like a rapid fire controller isn't used as it trivializes the skill aspect. Especially since not everyone has a controller with rapid fire. Competition should be limited by skill, not hardware.

[@anthonynguyen1289]

@@percher4824you could say this about any pc game. A turbo controller is nowhere near as expensive as getting a better pc to have better times in pc centered games. There is no consistent pc setup that every runner has. Even consoles can have slight differences depending on when they were made and the quality of the parts to make them. There will never be a true equal hardware leaderboard unless everyone uses the exact same devices and not similar ones that could vary for multiple factors.

[@Mario583a]

Nintendo: Spreedrunning games are supposed to be fun. Speedrunners: And I took that personally.

[@PatLund]

My thoughts are that it's an officially licensed product so I think it's not that bad, but I would understand Nintendo taking down the times too.

[@walrien9359]

The DMCA was about stuff that yuzu was doing was stuff around the emulator, not about the emulator/emulation itself

[@smt64productions40]

Stuff around it?

[@walrien9359]

@@smt64productions40 Emulation itself is not illegal, but iirc what Yuzu did was have a leaked ROM of LoZ:TotK paywalled behind their Patreon before the actual game came out

[@smt64productions40]

@@walrien9359 I see, I know Emulation itself isn’t illegal

[@Tosicamir]

13:40 I thought you were going to cover the fact that the NES controllers available to NSO subscribers could be used on this game. Since that controller could be rolled, as it's just an NES controller with a JoyCon rail attached. That isn't as likely as a Turbo controller, but it is indeed a possibility.

[@himedo1512]

So it's just people coping and crying that nintendo doesn't consider using an official nintendo product cheating? Got it.

[@ZaSpear]

Lol, as soon as I saw mander was competing week 1 I knew the leaderboards would be filled with probable cheaters, so I didn't bother trying. Unmoderated online leaderboards in any Nintendo game will always be a disaster.

[@chickenbradly]

Of all games to cheat in

[@lookatjayzjewelz]

Tbh, i dont think much people care if you are the best at a neo-geo game (or NES).

@@lookatjayzjewelz Some people do care, if there is a leaderboard you can bet people are gonna fight to be at the top, it's why things like speedrun and ranked matches in competitive games exists

[@Minaruok]

@@lookatjayzjewelz of all the takes to have

[@lookatjayzjewelz]

@@Minaruok i know some people care. But i feel like if the best original zelda player walked into the room, he'd get a "cool"

[@Minaruok]

@@lookatjayzjewelz so the fact youre watching a video posted on a speedrunning channel about a game made for competition made of these games is just kinda lost on you isnt it?

[@SpeedyGwen]

I never realy understood the thing about turbo controllers not being allowed, as a kid I had a turbo controller for the megadrive because it costed less than an official controller, and nowdays, every software have that feature built in and even official manufacturers make controllers with that option, so I really dont understand why people would ban it if its a normal function of many controllers, its like that one time where someone on a minecraft server wanted to ban me because I have an autoclicker button on my mouse and I use it so I dont damage the left click too much on the long therm when I have to spam it

[@TwoToo_]

Black brick wall 6:51 if you pause it's an optival illusion the bricks move, i lost my mind for a second there lmao

[@Leaf__22]

Wtf lol

[@KalOSRS]

That’s crazy, the black wall jiggles if you shake your phone lol

[@RedOphiuchus]

I have an 8bitdo ultimate for the switch, so my first thought was turbo, but mine actually has a limitation that you can't turbo d-pad buttons. It does have a macro feature, though, which can assign a series of button presses as well as time delays to a single input, so I imagined macros were used for the rapid direction changing. You could potentially set up the macro to do everything, the attack input, and the direction changes frame perfect in a single button press with a macro. I haven't played this game to bother testing, but I use the controller for mashing weapons in splatoon to avoid damaging my hand. (Nintendo tried to stop us on one particular weapon, the Squeezer, but macros can get around that too. Thanks Macros, you're a life saver.)

[@aethersplats]

I'm just glad Mander has learned from their errors and are doing legitimate runs. I hope it stays that way!

[@Faladrin]

When I was a kid I could kill those Link's Awakening bosses extremely fast. I never timed it since I was like 11 (I think), but the times shown look only slightly longer than I remember doing them as a kid. I don't doubt a person who has practiced could get those times at all. That was a great game, but also one of the saddest games I remember. My uncle had come to get me to go fishing on my birthday and we stopped a local department store that sold (among other things) video games and fishing gear, and I saw that Links Awakening had come out. I begged him to buy it for me, and he did, then he took me home and I happily ignored him and played my new game. I beat the game in 2 days (100% all hearts, no guides, just the insane thing a kid can do in the summer with the ability to focus). Meanwhile the relationship between me and my uncle was never the same. I picked a video game over him. I always think of this poor choice I made when ever I think of this game. RIP Dan, I love you so much.

[@AnneAleph]

So what's the deal with speedrunners and rubber bands anyways?

[@TokyoXtreme]

Racing games are notorious for rubber-banding AI, so it was only natural that humans would one day return the favor.

[@Zadamanim]

Imo, turbo isnt cheating because nintendo licensed the turbo controllers as official switch products. If nintendo didn't want to allow button remapping or frame perfect mashing, they shouldn't have made it that way in the first place.

[@No-Me3]

Nintendo can barely figure out connectivity, none-the-less anti-cheat.

[@lexacutable]

(the phrase here is "much less", nonetheless is a different word)

[@Nightcaat]

It’s impossible to stop people from feeding inputs. Without higher proof standards, stuff like this will always be a problem on in-game leaderboards, and most AAA companies don’t care to do more than remove blatantly fake records

[@Moqlnkn]

People do "Taunt Jet Upper" with Bryan in Tekken all the time in tournaments. That is a frame perfect "back" press, followed by exactly one frame of "neutral," followed by "forward" on the next frame. And they do it consistently.

[@elixer88]

Since Rapid Fire is a thing available to everyone (go buy the controller), I think this is a legal play. Not very sportsmanlike in the slightest, but legal. Considering the cost of the controller is like a third of the cost of a Switch Pro controller, if folk are really upset by Rapid Fire, they can use it themselves. If they have the pride to NOT use it though, good on them. If Nintendo somehow had something in place that prevented Rapid Fire from being recognized for these sorts of games, however, I wouldn't be upset by the decision.

[@shadaxgaming]

If the game runs at 60fps, how do hundredths-of-a-second differences occur in times? Does the game poll for controller input at hundredths of a second to determine an input completed the round?

[@Namingway248]

It doesn't really matter whether or not anyone subjectively thinks this "should" be considered cheating. It's officially accepted on the official leader boards, it's not cheating. The speedrun community does not determine for nintendo what are and aren't legitimate gameplay styles in their games.

[@Abyssoft]

Been getting this comment a bit, so I'll offer my thoughts on the matter, Nintendo are only taking the top times for each challenge and ranking them, this is functionality done by design through software and they offer no official ruleset as to what's allowed / what isn't. On top of this, they stopped maintaining their website that tracks each week of challenges a month after the game released, it hasn't been updated since August 12th, so I'll contend that the Nintendo leaderboards were never intended to be moderated, and only served as a ranking system that took the top time regardless of how it was achieved with no scrutiny or thought given to if the times were legit or not. Nintendo have actively monitored games before, such as Mario Maker where they manually pulled down levels that were hacked or impossible, and in the last live edition of the NWC in 2017 they provided non turbo controllers for everyone to use, so this seems to indicate to me these leaderboards aren't being monitored, and that Nintendo doesn't endorse turbo when it comes to NWC, otherwise they would have allowed it at NWC 2017, given that the Horipad was out before that event.

[@Namingway248]

@@Abyssoft That's ultimately mostly speculation though. What's more, a lack of moderation by nintendo wouldn't change the fact that neither you nor the community decides what is and isn't acceptable play for a leaderboard that is not yours. A lack of moderation that is, again, speculatory at best. We have no evidence one way or another to suggest what nintendo would do if someone did undeniably cheat in terms of altering the game to achieve an otherwise impossible time. An absence of evidence is, in fact, not evidence of absence. I also don't think its reasonable to compare a live 2017 event that involved mostly modern nintendo games to a home console adaptation revolving around NES games released years later. Even if it were, why didn't they provide gamecube controllers? The adapter to do so had been available since 2014. If a lack of provision shows a lack of endorsement, then we shouldn't consider gamecube controllers legitimate for any game that was featured at nwc 2017 (including smash bros and mario kart). Of course, I'm being intentionally glib when I say that. It'd be a ridiculous notion for me to infer this conclusion based on the evidence (or lack thereof) that exists in regards to nintendo's official stance.

[@deusprogrammer_thekingofspace]

For a second I was worried you were going to tell me that jackhammering Barba was cheating. What a relief.

[@ENNEN420]

Huh, I thought I clicked on a video about Nintendo World Championships: NES Edition, not on "Baby Crying Stock Sound Effect 20 Minute Extended". Must be a glitch on KZbin's end.

[@smolbrendan5978]

13:35 yes I know mander says he used turbo later in the video, but are we just gonna ignore that the Switch has NES controllers? like yea, that strat probably doesn't work on the joycons/switch pro controllers, but (assuming the build quality is alright) shouldn't the NES controller work just fine for this?

[@musickid43]

I never trust in game leaderboards.

[@functionatthejunction]

Im forced to assume anyone at the top of a leaderboard is cheating due to how prevalent it is.

[@666blaziken]

Turbo controllers should be fine as long as it's transparent. The skill is still there, and sometimes the turbo is needed to get otherwise impossible times.

[@jameswise9171]

1 minute in: This is journalistic malpractice You assert the runs are cheated for clicks then very clearly choose to not give that same level of certainty in the intro

[@Super_EpicGuy]

@@atomdecay Did *you* wait until the end of the video? Or did you just click until you saw a rubber band and assume that's what happened? The cheated time was set by using a turbo controller, which *is* seen as cheating by the majority of players (which was concluded in a poll, in case you missed that part too), and the button remapping+rubber band strategy is an idea of how a player could match these times humanly *without* using turbo Edit: Oh he deleted the reply

[@asteria9963]

Nobody cares. Keep crying

[@orions2908]

@@Super_EpicGuy what poll?

[@Super_EpicGuy]

@@orions2908 Thanks for calling me out on that, the poll at 15:08 wasn't exactly asking if people thought using turbo was cheating, it was asking what should be done for leaderboards on stages where turbo is the best option, though there was still a slight majority who thought turbo should not be allowed

[@NeoVejiita]

I think it is short sighted to assume that all switch controllers have a similar form factor. A lot of the difficult inputs would be made much easier on something like a hit box for example. A lot of hit box control boards will have turbo functionality included as well.

[@Stexen]

Narcissa Wright cheated in the 2015 Nintendo World Championship and still lost

[@TheRebeloftheRebellion]

Ah hummunadada!!!!

[@RADkate]

never go full cosmo

[@Gatorboy5678]

Oh, what? The game no one cares about unless they get clout from winning?? How crazy there’s hackers! /s

[@TheGaming100]

This is why every tas software should have a watermark so they cannot be passed off as rta

[@JimMilton-ej6zi]

Nah people should just stop taking it so seriously and cheaters wouldn't have any reason to want to cheat.

[@asteria9963]

​@@JimMilton-ej6zi the ones taking it seriously are said cheaters though

[@Vexxter]

Well, it would be pretty easy to remove, and also it would make every TAS video annoying to watch

[@rphntw1n]

That can be worked around. They just have to require hand cams. It’s so easy to fix it’s stupid.

[@lMrStickerStarl]

Wait this is actually a cool idea, not sure how it’d work with console TASing stuff but I like it, as long as the watermark isn’t anything obnoxious.

[@TheMightyGiantDad]

Im 2nd on the leaderboard for Kong Crusher. There is a frame-perfect trick at the end of the run that is made MUCH easier by pressing d-pad left while holding right on the joystick. I use it in the run

[@yomama9390]

rapid fire is what they call turbo here too... what kind of ignorant statement is that

[@SamtheBravesFan]

I noticed that in the "machine gun" stab when they had the Horsehead battle challenge. I took one look at that "win" and I'm like "Yep, that's a TAS."

[@lanfear552]

Now be honest.. are you surprised?

[@idkwhothisis-uv8tq]

I’ve always been fascinated by speedrunning, hopefully I can get the deluxe set soon, and be able to ply the game with extra stuff as a bonus.

[@RetroCheats]

Is using rubberbands cheating?

[@Abyssoft]

It would likely be against the rules, although some games do allow rubber bands for certain strats, in this case I think it wouldn't be allowed given that you can do the strat without it.

[@Zorothegallade-rpg]

This reminds me of that Karl Jobst video where a Doom cheater posted a faster time in a challenge and everyone initially thought they had found a new strategy, until it was revealed they just copied the top runner's strategy and used TAS to shave a few frames off the execution so that they finished one second faster

[@polocatfan]

this is clickbait. turbo controllers are allowed and not cheating because official Nintendo controllers have it.

[@DoctorSwellman]

Glad you picked this up for a vid, it was a good one!!

[@BladeRabbit]

Using a rubberband would be cheating too though

[@JimMilton-ej6zi]

It would, but in speedrunning there's community banned cheating and then there's community approved cheating, its arbitrary which one that they will label each one in because speedrunners aren't good at community management

[@byrondejong9872]

@@JimMilton-ej6zi People speedrun hundreds of thousands of different games, I don't get how you think you can have rules of what is cheating that will make everyone happy.

[@JimMilton-ej6zi]

@@byrondejong9872 you can't, that's why speedrunning shouldn't be confined to one specific community.

[@byrondejong9872]

@@JimMilton-ej6zi The comment about speedrunners not being good at community management seems unfair since communities can't manage each other unless it is confined to one specific community which you said is impossible.

[@neoqwerty]

@@JimMilton-ej6zi Go say that to each game (or hell, a franchise's speedrunning communities). Also it's not so much arbitrary as it's depending on which game/franchise it is, and if it's a feature of the game or a glitch/unintended programming, or achieved via a third-party tool. Some communities are willing to allow turbo for accessibility's sake when there's intense mashing (no one wants carpal tunnel) and/or if there's an autofire option in the game or on the hardware's first-party controllers. Some communities will split it to with and without turbo/autofire. The largest argumenting tends to be "is this intended or not" for the sake of "glitchless" and "No Major Glitch" vs "any%". Most games that found an arbitrary code execution exploit have ACE and No ACE as its own split (so while NMG is always No ACE, if there's major glitches it can either be No ACE or ACE). If you know the general history of that community, you're likely to be able to actually guess which glitches pass and which ones don't. Also if you're trying to lump in all the speedrunning communities together to try to make it sound like they can't agree together... Well, fuckin' DUH. You're trying to say something like "the writers aren't good at community management, they can't tell me which tropes go in a story" and ignoring that there's something called "genres". romance tropes aren't gonna be anything similar to super robot tropes. Same with speedruns, they're not gonna have the same categories between Mario 64 and Morrowind and Final Fantasy 7 and Megaman X3.

[@Orion582]

17:19 can we talk about how surprisingly solid this french accent is?

[@RevBombRR]

That should be a rule of the Internet. "If a timed leaderboard exists, people will cheat and there will be a time of 00:00.10 in every category

[@planchetflaw]

mander did nothing wrong