MY RESPONSE TO CURTIS STONE "What Permaculture Got Wrong... Dispelling Five Common Myths"

[@matthewfischer3312]

It amazes me how fluidly Richard expresses his thoughts. It’s spoken like a person that has seen every side and came to a firm conclusion for themselves and shares it with humility without bashing anybody else’s experiences. So unique in the world.

[@lewisbivona843]

Well said! I was totally struck by his modesty and respect for others while providing well-reasoned arguments. I live in the U.S. and it's rare to see that kind of dialogue about virtually any issue these days :p

[@stephencarlsbad]

Quite common actually. However, it is unusual to see someone like this openly sharing with the masses which is why it appears unusual. I have a feeling his thoughts are so well organized and then easily expressed because he likely isn't addicted to the "Average American Diet" like most of us. Get on a low carb, zero sugar, no caffeine, no alcohol, low stress, balanced healthy diet and you'll be amazed at how well you can organize your own thoughts and express them with the same ease as Richard Perkins. I know because I changed my diet and saw the surprising improvement.

[@johnbeard3613]

@@stephencarlsbad "Average American Diet"... Thats why the english have messed-up teeth!?

[@johnbeard3613]

@@lewisbivona843 Under Cover Farmers - Feature Length kzbin.info/www/bejne/pIi7dH-MeK-Kirc

[@ObjectiveAnalysis]

stephencarlsbad nice causal nationalism/bigotry

[@theJustinRhodesShow]

Right on. We can get too caught up in concepts sometimes and forget why were really doing this in the first place. In the end, it's about making the world a better place for our grandkids, so whatever method it takes to get there is the golden ticket (even if it's a smorgasbord)

[@edialbert8035]

Justin Rhodes , well said! Sustainability, so the future generation can have a future 👍

[@jamesgoodwin7537]

Mmmmmmm you said Smorgasbord... Now I'm hungry to get back to doing the farming.. LOL Haven't convinced my wife to raising chickens yet(my city doesn't allow them in town either) I'm hoping I can hide em in my semi-forested acres.

[@drewblack749]

As Joel Salatin states....it’s about soil restoration. Period.

[@talisikid1618]

Better world for people now & later. Can’t think in terms of grandkids. Way too selfish & narrow an outlook.

[@louiseolivato838]

I have my school children listening to and following you.....we include your work, book & videos in our curriculum. Thank you for bringing such value to our young farmers lives.....all the way from Sunny South Africa

[@sarahloy2699]

Thanks. Great video. I studied Permaculture with Geoff Lawton and he constantly reminded us that good design is based on individual sites and the purpose of the site. There is no one-system-fits-All in permaculture. I'm glad you have reiterated that. The biggest misconception, and you addressed it, is using zone 4 or zone 5 techniques, in zones 2 or 3 which is poor design even on a homestead level and impossible on a market level. I was also taught that keyline is totally in keeping with good Permaculture Design if it is the best technique for your land and purpose as it is for you. I think your strongest points are that people who haven't grown things shouldn't be teaching other people how to and it's all about APPROPRIATE design.

[@davidlarsen2184]

I think the problem with permaculture is that people are calling too many things permaculture. My understanding is that permaculture is a design system. It isn't swales or food forests it's what you have, a collection of systems that are placed and run in a strategic well though out way to reach your goal. Swales, market gardening, keyline design and agroforestry are all just pieces that either get used or not based on the client/land users needs.

[@rachelgucker4238]

Agreed. My first exposures to permaculture were Geoff Lawton and Sep Holtzer and Richard Perkins, and a little Paul Wheaton. I see narrow-minded decontextualized thinking in the comments sections for these materials, but not in the originals... Seems the problems are more with the permaculture fan club than with "permaculture" itself.

[@JoshStobart]

Ah finally someone that understands! This is exactly it. It is a set of tools not a set of prescribed methods. Permaculture is the hammer you use to build the house, not the house itself.

[@yengsabio5315]

It becomes a problem when it is treated as if it is a political ideology!

[@stormytrails]

Swales are simply drainage avenues. Directing excess water. Like a ditch but shallower and wider lined with grass to slow the water down and allow penetration of surface water into the subsurface water systems. Anyone involved in this field had better have more than just experience! Some real education continuing education! Let us be serious, this field is work and work is not a great marketing tool to promote gardening, so the words NO WORK sound real good to people who've never dug into the soil. Never got on their knees to look at an awesome world beneath our feet. Any one who wants to be an expert had better know hydrology and chemistry and riparian systems, and soil and geology, entomology, bacterial disease, fungal disease and viral diseases and what bacteria, fungi and virus are beneficial in our soil. There is oh so much to know and I get tired of people afraid of dirt and sweat and understanding an entire new world of plants and life and and and and...we humans in no Universe are able to mimic Nature. Period. Very few of us know the forest from the trees. Gosh, we don't know the basics yet everyone wants to reinvent the dang wheel!? Without knowing fully just the basics we all think we should go do hydroponics? Or Hugelkulture? Arghhhh. Can you look up 'perched water table'? There is NO fertility that nature allows willy nilly back into the soil of an ecosystem. How funny. There might be a bit of nitrogen available in the debris that is in the process of decomposition, but listen up! Decomposers use that nitrogen first and pretty much zip is left for any new artificial crop. Nature keeps those chemicals (not NUTRIENTS!!) sequestered in the bio mass. Population control! An ecosystem would be destroyed by an overpopulation of plants... Fertile soil only if a human threw balanced macro chemistry on that soil a few weeks prior? Decomposed organic matter feeds the macro and micro soil organisms NOT plants. DECOMPOSED is the key word. Yeah, Pheromones from plants and insects? Interesting. Not too many gardeners need to be worrying about pheromones, they need to deal with the basics: Tilth and drainage of soil (all soil is great soil), Light, airflow, Water (the correct amount at the right time and monitoring the soil drying out) and FERTILIZER. Good grief. I am a master gardener X3 plus quite a bit of other major credentials...hands on over half a century! Full time not just on weekends. Licensed Landscape Architect. If we would all just get on the same page with the correct information and know the basics...happiness. That would be a major project all by itself, we already have all of the simple, straightforward rules and common sense to grow food and that does take a bit of time to learn and practice, quite a bit of time.

[@SimpleEarthSelfReliance]

Stated perfectly

[@jimwilleford6140]

Wow! What a wonderful lesson with your clarity of mind, experience and conversational skills, and for showing us the result. I am 80 and a backyard guy, using no dig, and learning every day what works, and what doesn’t. My goal is to do well enough that perhaps neighbors will join in, adding plots, and developing soil, then, and as you point out, let the veggies grow. I know we can, at least supplement our block with affordable organic produce. You are a very bright guy, and a credit to the species. Thank you.

[@Eon69nc]

WOW someone who is a straight shooter. Thank you for sharing your experiences. Certainly refreshing to have someone who understand difference between book learning and real life and is not a know-it-all.

[@johnbeard3613]

he is not a know-it-all, b/c he does not know it all... thats ovbvious...

[@tristancarr204]

Did you have something constructive to add or are you here to just poop on someone’s compliment to Richard?

[@johnbeard3613]

@@tristancarr204 Video said response too curtis, but he didnt and couldnt, and instead to save face picked out a few things he doesnt agree with in perm. but ended up looking like he was just tryin to ride on curtis's coat tails. And i find the arogence of his supports ignorant and misleading. Sorry if i up set you.

[@johnbeard3613]

@@stormysampson1257 Why so offended if you are all that? I just find most people who have any education, as all of a sudden experts on all matters. Which is stupid, but what is real cancerous, is they close their minds too new ideas, without even trying them... im a contrarian, and into many topics, i find this fight or flight reaction too different beliefs, in all of them. Like wellness, ill tell ya, but not going argue with you about it. I tell them to eat what they like, not my fault if they are too lazy or bull headed to research it. I told them the truth, their subconscious knows it correct. And sorry you paid so much for an education.

[@johnbeard3613]

@@stormysampson1257 I can not find your last comment, i maybe shadow banned. I think we are on the same team, good talking too you, if this our last communication. Hugz

[@oliverviertmann499]

I really appreciate your emphasis on systematically collecting data, being humble and teaching people about stuff you actually have practical experience in. This is definitely something we need more of in the permaculture movement. Thanks for sharing Richard :)!

[@broeklien3817]

Thanks Richard, for remaining a professional and refraining from bashing others that are doing their things their way. After all, in the end we are all colleagues in the business of making a living. Thanks for being a great resource!

[@elwood212]

‘Life Evolves’ as Should our knowledge and skill sets.. Your So Right Richard.👍🇦🇺

[@jonberlie]

Most eloquent and honest perspective I have heard. You have hit the nail on the head with all of my hesitations and struggles I have had as a self identified permaculturist over the years. Time to be pragmatic and use what works and ditch my attachments to conceptual design biases.

[@permie3535]

Thank you for addressing these issues. Certified in 2004, I have noticed these things, as well. My climate is beastly hot and dry. All of the local soils tend to harbor nematodes....not the beneficial kind. A forest garden situation is a nightmare for most plants, because the woody plants harbor the nematodes and even if they don't decline themselves, the vegetable crops increase the infestation and the ground becomes unusable. Old European methods work better in this situation. I was forced to remove all my fruit trees, institute an intense remediation program and start over! Thanks for the tip about berries in the orchard, that is one that would actually work for me.

[@StoneyRidgeFarmer]

Richard..I like the channel buddy...this is my first time seeing you...you were recommended from one of my vids....nice to hear your opinions and useful information

[@allisonperrigoue2761]

"We need to be asking ourselves how little we can do". Love this quote. It's so easy to fall into the trap of complicating and making farming complex when really most of the knowledge and effectiveness comes from observation and simplification.

[@jamesduggan5919]

Thank you for this. I am a 71 yr. old man in Donegal, Ireland, who just returned from 50 yr stay in Canada and am just beginning to look into all the field of growing food. I want to share with you someone I discovered while exploring You Tube concerning world food growing practices and she is Dr. Vandana Shiva. She has many videos on YT and has written many books. She comes form the northern part of India in the Himalayas. I suspect you would find her work of interest especially some of her books. I haven't read any of them but I just have a hunch and wanted to pass it on. Again, thank you. Best wishes. Seamus Duggan, Fal Carrach, Co. Donegal, Ireland.

[@benschiavi2288]

Depends on what youre looking for. If you want to feed as many people as possible whilst maintaining profitability, start a richard perkins farm. If you want to supply food to restaurants profitably in an urban environment, start a curtis stone farm. If you want to make a system that produces food for thousands of years, start a geoff lawton farm. If you hate slaving away in a market garden with boring crops in straight lines, try all the other permaculture methods (back to eden, masanobu fukuoka, hugelkultur, food forest, perennial vegetable garden, biodiverse veggie patch etc).

[@shanekonarson]

Ben Schiavi you said it right there ! If want a farm that lasts a Thousand years start a Geoff Lawton farm although that’s yet to be proven however daytuna runs off zero fossil fuel imput ! Most of these other farms do not! Which is what permaculture was originally intended to achieve permanence

[@stephencarlsbad]

Permaculture is a fun hobby. But its when the permaculture hobbyists get on their soapbox and predict that permaculture will feed and save the masses is when it reaches kook proportions...

[@wildforestorganics7298]

@@stephencarlsbad Permaculture is just sustainable agriculture. There are no strict rules. Agriculture is currently unsustainable. The only options we have are to reduce the population or to make a farming practices sustainable. That can be done by applying principles of soil building, rather than soil degradation. Reserving areas for nature is also something current agriculture does not allow for.

[@shonagraham2752]

Why would you only choose one? Why would you choose between a starving child and the planet. Why would you presume a wild apple forest in Kazakhstan would tell you anything other than how wild apple trees grow in Kazakhstan. I wouldn't use a forest in the West of Scotland for guidance on growing a tree in the East any more than I would use the Highlands; even in a small country the size of Scotland there are different micro climates that produce different forests. West coast is much wetter than the East the Highlands is cooler more acid based soil with poor nitrogen. Don't go to Kazakhstan stay where you are and learn what the plants that are already there say about your soil and your climate. When you've listened to them go look at scrub land because scrubland is the intermediate step to forestation.

[@djangoLovers]

@@shanekonarson I want to see daytuna running in the Australian desert or in mediterranean , not in paradise sub tropical!! Geof is a daytuna pot brain from Britain.

[@vks_cy]

"Consider integrating anything that works, and throw out anything that doesn't." Spot on in my opinion. I've got a PDC, but I'm skeptical as to the seriousness of the average permaculture designer because I believe we should integrate as much technology as we can to move ourselves forward. We don't manually reload guns anymore, we don't (or hardly do) manually change gears, so why do so many people find integrating appropriate technology such a threat? Why must we go back to the stone age to appease climate change activists and permaculture designers as a whole? I enjoyed your video, thank you for airing your opinion. Same to Curtis!

[@milahu]

> Why must we go back to the stone age to appease climate change activists and permaculture designers as a whole? some people think that hard work has more value. this way, they can compensate their blindness for more elegant solutions

[@johndoh5182]

I'm glad you are really clarifying the difference between homesteading where in general you're growing your own food along with some extra as opposed to having a sustainable (both usages of the word) farm, that makes you money to live because those are very different things. The first time I learned about permaculture I thought about the process of farming in an efficient way and I struggled making the connection because it seems like permaculture taken to an nth degree makes sustainable farming really hard. Now, this really depends on what it is you're growing and as you said the climate you live in because people who think about the tropics have to forget about people talking about temperate agriculture because they're very different. We have land in the tropics and we can use different no-dig and permaculture techniques along with the usage of animals in an ecosystem in a sustainable way (sustainable = for the earth, not for your business, so at most carbon/emissions neutral, so you are putting into the ground at least as much carbon as you are emitting.) So we can use the same techniques of grazing animals being followed by chickens over sections of land. But for the lay of our land we have to do it smaller scale. Things have to be easier to move. But there's different agriculture that we can do that's more like a food forest and it doesn't add much to the work. The main issue is giving yourself the space you need for harvesting the fruit from the trees, at least for us.

[@johntheherbalistg8756]

Good video. Very well spoken 👍👍👍 The clash here is that the permaculture movement is about supplying your own food, which is great. Commercial agriculture is about supplying everybody's food. Two completely different goals here. Both can learn from each other, both successes and mistakes

[@heckyes]

I'm a farm-tube bender at the moment. Lots of food for thought here. I think the whole video can be summarized via the statement at 33:33 - "We need to be way more humble than that. And we need people sharing direct experiences, not book learning... You gotta know what you know, and know what you don't know"

[@jennifern8765]

You make the point that permaculture is not a fixed approach; it's a set of principles to do with efficiency and sustainability. Some techniques have become erroneously associated with permaculture by certain teachers, authors etc. This is wrong, permaculture was never about saying: there is only one way to do things. Instead, it is a way of looking at the problems (e.g. land degradation) and finding a solution to them--as you mentioned, looking at natural systems is one of the suggested methods (though again, that's not a rule, just a possibility). I think what happens is that many people see others practising their own version of permaculture, and they see that and assume, that's what permaculture is. Swales, for example, appear to have become associated with permaculture. But swales, while talked about in the very first pc books, were never suggested as a solution for every problem. They were discussed in the context of dryland growing and the need to capture as much water as possible on the property so as to survive the dry times. (Along with tanks, dams, keyline ploughing etc). All of these things were discussed as examples of solutions, not The Solutions. Mollison and Holmgren cherry-picked techniques from all over the world as examples of what can be done. to get people thinking. Not to create a prescription. Certainly when i did my PDC in the 80s, there were no prescriptions; we were taught a way of looking at things; that design is important and can save you a lot of time, energy and money; that we can look for solutions in many places; that each situation is unique and each design will be unique. And the data relevant to that situation will be unique as well. So to my mind, these criticisms are misdirected--point them at the people or articles that are misrepresenting permaculture as a fixed set of solutions. It's not that and never has been.

[@Alpinefolk]

I'm not a an expert in permaculture or gardening (though I've been involved in intensive farming over my adult life), but as a one-time ecologist I'd like to point out that while there are no ecosystems without animals, there are many islands with no large mammalian browsers. Here in New Zealand we only had native birds and one small bat. The same is true of many south pacific islands.

[@chrissyfrijters6581]

Yes but then they devellopped other systems in nature , without the need for them, so then you look what nature does in those places

[@wpchastain]

Excellent objective view point. I am a businessman aiming to move from the backyard gardening into production market gardening. The kind of analytical logic is so important. Thank you.

[@Ludifant]

This is the kind of practical thinking I was looking for. I hate to talk to people who have a 'system' from both sides of the table. It usually means they are locked in and emotionally invested in being right. This seems wonderfully open in comparison. Very interesting!

[@TheOneLifeRider]

I agree with everything you said. Here in the UK, and probably a in lot of other western, affluent countries, townies like me pick up permaculture after getting inundated with scary articles on the internet, filled with negatives about farming. What they seem to pick up first is the easy slogans: "the lazy gardener", "forest gardens", "herb spirals". What is easy to ignore, are early Mollison's writings, where, for instance, he puts together a monoculture of sugar palms, on a wave pattern in order to stuff as many as possible in a given area, and connecting the flowers with plumbing to automatically harvest the sugar sap, and deliver to the processing building. There's more ideas like that, but people don't have the large scale thinking caps on. They usually think of their own garden, next to their house. And then they try to talk to farmers, completely out of context. I know, I've done it - guilty as charged. I know now, that even the most staunch user of chemicals, deep down has had enough, and only uses them because they don't know any better, and have bills to pay. Great work Richard, chat soon. Daniel T. (the soil guy ;) )

[@offgridcurtisstone]

Nice one Richard!

[@NS-pf2zc]

Urban Farmer Curtis Stone - The collaboration between the two of you has been fantastic. I've really enjoyed them immensely!

[@Stilgar74]

Agreed! as a follower of both channels I really appreciate the transparent no BS approach from both. Thanks guys for all you do!

[@Xxfades321xX]

I also follow both channels and have come to appreciate cone t from you both for your unique takes on things

[@aquariumusic7304]

Just posted a response video from a complete beginners perspective, what I've learned, and how things have worked for me in San Diego.

[@halbertking2683]

Buffalo Bird Woman's Garden,Forest Gardening by Robert Hart,1491 has a great chapter on building soil in the Amazon by ancient people.

[@courtneyheron1561]

Richard, thank you for your views. Very much enjoy following you. I appreciate and am very grateful for your candid, no nonsense explanation. I sense your incredible dedication and commitment, to doing the best you can at your craft in all your KZbin videos. I am inspired by you and glad you are out there to learn from. I am joining the farming world this year. Hope to meet you some day. Thanks for putting your extensive farming knowledge and experience out in the 2nd Edition of your comprehensive farming book. 🙏😊 All the best to you and your family!

[@dayglowfunkyjunky]

I would've cried if I didn't see this before I started my farm!! Thanks so much for sharing your experience!!

[@DominickTyner]

We lead by example and personally feel that you Richard have paid your dues my brother. Accessing credible info is paramount in the execution of a successful enterprise. I’m a 70 year young organic grower in Florida and find your videos a profound inspiration . Thank You ...😊

[@pedromurteira2544]

just fantastic the amount of wisdom in this video.. ilustrates just how to adress and respond to different ideas without a single trace of superiority or egoistic attacks that are the rule, tries (and accomplishes) to put a certain affirmation in perspective, trying to show how simplified and standardized information can be measleading, how to take into account that different solutions will occur in different regions and specific conditions.. it gives an enourmous help to those looking for design thinking frames, it adresses in many subtle ways how pre ordered schemes will not work, remembers us not to discard the totality of rural wisdom with ou inflated agroecological propaganda (sometimes) and activism. don´t know what else to say, we need more objectivity like the one i just saw in this video, that´s my feeling after watching this.. and i´m writing all this and still lack the words to describe how this has been useful to me.. it will help me to put in perspective all that i learned and all that i will lurn ! thank you to the author, way to go man!

[@johndoh5182]

When you were with the cows talking about how their bones return minerals to the soil, one was listening very intently to what you were saying, but in the end it went right back to munching away at the grass. A cog in the wheel.

[@tanarehbein7768]

Thanks for your insight on animal/ag balanced production. As someone raised in America's cattle country I believe we need to eat meat for long-term health but production must be the most sensible and healthy for the land, the animals, and the consumer as well as the producer. Thanks for being open minded and practical. Animals are essential.

[@johannsmith5697]

Layering compost on the top and other organic matter continuously is the best, it protects the worms and other bugs in the ground, who bring up nutrients from the subsoil/clay - which can be incredibly mineral rich depending where you are, and mix it into the compost layer for you - so saves labor tilling, mixing etc.

[@Chickmamapalletfarm]

MichelleObama isAman ... I cant tell if you are totally hilarious, or just a troll. Then I saw your KZbin name... oh my... so many colorful ideas on these interwebs. Either way thanks for the giggle, and please don’t eat anything out of your garden. 😂😂🤣🤣😂😂

[@shanekonarson]

Johann smith depends where you are though dry climates mulching is necessary! It’s like he says with swales if you don’t need them don’t use them ! There is hundreds of techniques that can be employed in any given environment! Anyway it’s great people are waking up to Farm more sustainably we will work it out cheers mate

[@stormytrails]

Ugh, Johann, your ideas are kinda sorta very wrong. Compost HAS to be decomposed before putting it on the surface of your plant beds. We humans do not and should not try to mix any of this into our soil. Just putting decomposed organic matter DECOMPOSED on the surface of our soil causes the micro and macro organisms to COME UP to the surface to eat that decomposed organic matter because that is their FUEL source. All these guys go into dormancy when someone not knowing what they are doing puts non decomposed organic matter on their soil. Until that raw, hot or non decomposed organic matter is finally decomposed, there isn't food for the soil organisms. What little nitrogen was left in the dying debris, the decomposers use NITROGEN for fuel. Silly to think there is any chemistry necessary for photosynthesis in our soils. Minerals? Let's go back to chemistry and elements... No lets go back to your supposition that soil organisms are BRINGING up 'nutrients...minerals'...soil organisms once there is decomposed organic matter on the surface of the topsoil, those organisms go up to eat this D O M and then they go back into the soil and poop it out mixing the D O M into the soil far better than we humans. We are talking about the top 4 to 6 inches of soil not any farther down; think about soil deeper than 6". No air, little penetration of water thus the soil organisms don't want to dive any further. 95 % of all plant roots are in the top 4 to 6 inches of soil. Sure there are taproots for support and miles long Mesquite roots, but the fact is 6" is soil life. Watering deeply and allowing the soil to dry inbetween deep waterings...enhances root growth and drought resistance. I beg you guys to go take practically FREE master gardener classes. The basics right up front and center. From your nearest University host of Cooperative Extension Services. I am amazed they aren't producing internet educational videos. BASICS.

[@roboticgrits]

MichelleObama isAman lmao

[@johnbeard3613]

Continuously adding compost every year will cause problems....

[@mypearl53]

Logical and rational without all the CO2, wind farm, solar panel mantra ... on the most recent left loony farm idea is we should not eat meat even though as you state its mostly a closed loop solar product ... and I doubt there is enough plant protein to feed humanity apart from all the other essentials that meat provide ... avid listener to Christian Westbrook of iceagefarmer who believes in the cultivation and perfection of human beings.

[@deadeyeventures]

Great vid! A "Big Ag" guy here(3000 gal. of milk a day), I totally agree with you. I dream of the day I can retire to a smaller more relaxed farm. But, the only way to feed an ever growing world population is though commercial agriculture. How else does 2% of the people feed the other 98%?

[@melissarivera8236]

We need more than 2 percent of people to be farmers.

[@theecoschool9604]

Right on Richard. I've said the same for years and get plenty of backlash from those with little to no experience in production agriculture. Great to hear someone else saying it too.

[@drcdrdoct9864]

There is a place for big ag. I'm not trying to replace them. I'm trying to create my own environment so that I am not so dependent on them. We have become a dead people because we have no idea what brings life. I feel like if more people raised food and practiced more regenerative ag, then we would value life more. There is something sacred about killing your food or harvesting your plants with purpose. You watch your waste and become more responsible. I don't have the ability to be self sustaining, but am trying to learn.

[@nkyhomesteading6500]

That was a great video. Thanks for taking the time to do it.

[@patblack2291]

This video should be required viewing for people taking PDCs! Thank you Richard for your experience, knowledge, and eloquence. You put great things into the world.

[@MichaelVandeburg]

A great thing you might look at using is bark removed from trees at paper mills and saw mills. Very high in nutrition and used by most production plant growers for plant mulch. You might also look at adding a plant section if there any people or businesses that would buy small plants or to sell at their stores. Like small tomato plants, pepper plants and others. Plus other small shrub and flower plants. Add a small nursery to supply all these products and gives you another layer to your business portfolio.

[@scotthudson1665]

One of the biggest hurdles I see is the super low cost of government subsidized commodity veg and protein. I have been watching lots of these small scale production to get a sense if I could make a go of it. Elliot Coleman not so long ago gave a talk and said that him and his wife netted just $35k a year, and they have been farming for 50 years. So the conclusion that I have come to so far is that a couple of things need to happen; there needs to be a robust PR campaign to convince those that can afford to buy the higher priced locally produced food and two encourage deep pocket patrons to purchase land for Farming Land Trusts (and remain in Trust for in perpetuity) and offer it up at no cost. In the US, there is an enormous amount of land that could be farmed but it is just sitting unused. In my eyes, society can't keep going down this path of high unemployment, lack of access to proper nutrition and high incidence of contaminated food recalls. And in the US, for the USDA and FDA to not put up barriers from small scale producers but to be partners in a stable and healthy food supply. In conclusion with wider profit margins, even a moderately savvy business person and moderately skillful producer can sort out the glitches and have a successful operation. So motivating the general public to insist on a better food production model would be a big boost to this sector.

[@johannsmith5697]

I Like what Paul Gautschi mentions about the pheromones, if the soil is sick, the plants are sick and that releases a signal for the insects to "come and eat me" - this makes a lot of sense to me, what about you Richard? What do you think of this idea?

[@pilkyish]

I’d also like to hear Richards opinion on Back to Eden. I’m not religious, but most of what Paul says makes sense to me. I love his garden. Especially the dwarf tree’s. I’ve been growing in wood chips this year from pots. Amazing how moist the compost has remained in this dry UK summer. Come on Richard. What’s your take on Back to Eden method?

[@johannsmith5697]

Daves Faves i think Paul is great because he has a good spiritual mind, i think its a vague concept but its ultimately permaculture through Paul's mind. The pheromone thing is interesting.

[@pilkyish]

I agree, Paul’s, methods are about observe and implement.

[@verteup]

The back to Eden concept is incredibly vague. When put to the task, the guy who "invented" that method admits that he uses the terms "wood chips" to describe what every human being on Earth calls compost. He is not growing jack shit in wood chips. He's MULCHING with wood chips. He's growing everything in compost. This has led to A LOT of misunderstanding. Why he doesn't make this clear is beyond my comprehension. You cannot grow anything in strictly wood chips. Nothing.

[@mayb2395]

richard mostly agrees - therefore i can now watch his channel in peace.

[@willemvanaalst4293]

I am glad with these comments since they reflect what I have been struggling with. Talking with Allan and Will Harris straightened me out.

[@kgotlelelomaaposomakgowo5387]

Thank you as always man. im in south africa and planning to start a permaculture after compliting my agricultural degree and please keep on advising and inspiring us with your work, because poverty is still a problem to be solved in africa thanks man.

[@ianmiles2505]

Your corrupt, inept, uneducated leaders keep you poor. They cannot run sophisticated ststems.

[@goofyroofy]

RE: swales and keyline: some good points, I think one thing that doesnt get looked at in Permaculture"dogma" is how much certain things were designed to deal with Australia's issues, and they may or may not be automatically transferable all over the world.

[@johannsmith5697]

Context is key, heavy mulch is kind of necessary for tropical and dry climate high evaporation climates, colder climates its just a nest for pests.

[@jacquelinestravels]

I loved the video Richard. I was meant to be doing a permaculture designers course this year but due to ill health had to cancel and was going to do one next year instead but for a while now I've been in two minds as to whether or not permaculture alone is the way to go , I don't have lots of land , I just have a 100ft by 27 ft garden and could never quite put my finger on why I wasn't going all out permaculture . You've made some very good points, obviously I won't be growing on a massive scale , it is just myself and my two teenage children to provide for but I've tried the polyculture type beds and to be honest, it's not happening , I can never get enough produce out of one bed of any one type of crop . I've had wood chips from local tree surgeons delivered over the course of this year and it's rotting away nicely in one corner , I've also got four compost bins with nicely rotting compost . I have to say , watching your video , first one of yours I've watched, has helped me decide on how exactly I want to grow , yes, of course there will be some aspects of permaculture that I will retain, for instance the earth care, people care and fare share , but it won't be all peramaculture from now on. PS I have a Hugulkulture and for what it's worth, it wasn't worth all the hard work that went into it.

[@NS-pf2zc]

Brilliant and well thought out reply! I love the permaculture movement, but at times it does seem to take on almost a cultish feel and filled with judgement on any deviation from the norms within permaculture. When you talked about soil health and pest/disease control, it reminded me of the talks given by Dan Kittredge and his focus on minerals and soil health directly affecting his market gardens and produce quality. Great stuff there. Thanks for being so honest and pragmatic while also being inspirational and ecology focused. Its refreshing! Oh. And one more point, I couldn't agree more with your last point regarding teaching. I personally don't think that one can complete a PDC and suddenly have all the answers and can teach. Sharing information is crucial, of course, but knowledge based on experience is far more influential and powerful.

[@JoshStobart]

The PDC is not about showing you how to do things to replicate what they have shown. It is about teaching people the tools so they can create their own designs and have their own ideas. This is what a person with a PDC can teach but that is all. Each property is different and will have a different optimal design and so teaching one's own ideas as gospel is actually harmful to the movement. But it happens and that is creating a negative culture that makes permaculture look like a cultist movement. In true permaculture, there are no norms, only what is best for your land and your design. That being said, of course there are things that every permaculture person integrates into their design as they have been proven to work already and must now be built upon. For example, growing in guilds is a concept that many use as it has proven to create strong soil and plant health. But all of the people i have seen using it have done so in different ways because an efficient system has not been found yet and in some cases because their land demanded a different approach. That being said, Ideas must be shared and the permaculture properties that have been established for 20+ years generally are open to visitors to show what they did right and most importantly what they did wrong. These places will often send your mind spinning and some such as Permadynamics have shown great profitability. The problem with knowledge based on experience is that experience is generally gained in an environment where things are done in a certain way and you attempt to copy what you have seen instead of creating your own design and doing things the way that best suits the land. For this, academic knowledge is needed and academics are flocking to permaculture to address the knowledge gap and a great example of this is the more recent mycological aspect of permaculture that has shown that growing mycorrhiza in the soil enhances plant growth greatly while providing many additional benefits. Understanding these new concepts is vital not only for permaculture but also for no-dig and many other farming techniques. This is also where newcomers to agriculture are a great benefit to the movement because they bring fresh ideas, skillsets and different ways of thinking.

[@b_uppy]

@@JoshStobart Love permaculture. It requires a knowledge of a lot of different techniques, if you are going to be a good permaculture designer. It is about doing good at where you are at with the simplest, low-tech methods available so as to be achievable. It is relatively easy to implement and maintain provided you are diligent enough to not let it get ahead of you. Observation when starting is key, and well-rounded results are the aim. I have tried find university classes that taught permaculture, and found most offered sustainable ag. Sustainable ag is not as good as it could be. There is still a lot of monocropping and chem ag. Some permaculturists are completely ignored by some programs/profs despite their contributioms and success in the field. Part of the problem is that universities receive much of their funding from mega corporations and much of their studies have "funder bias". Funder bias is when the study favors the business paying for the research, whether by overtly endorsing a favorable finding for said business, by ommission of critical data, etc.

[@martingriffith7824]

Richard, Thank you for a extremely informative video. It is easier for people to belittle and ridicule then to understand. A good example is wood chips and how nature breaks them down for the soil to keep it loose. Plus the biological ecosystem it provides for microorganisms that provides for the soil.

[@jvb4960]

love you too richard! greetings from an old lady in norway learning to farm here. learning so much from you and curtis and my small garden.

[@kennethbrush7300]

This is some of the best pragmatism I've heard on this subject. Thank you for sharing.

[@michaelharder9737]

Rational, respectful discussion of sustainable agriculture, with an interest in soil health. I've found my people!

[@TheRipeTomatoFarms]

If there's a video and it DOESN'T discuss soil health....I lose interest! LOL

[@arcadia1081]

As someone who got obsessed with this, this video is like a bombshell. Absolutely brilliantly put these sentiments!

[@charlesmartel1998]

Richard Perkins you a are a model for future generation of farmer thank you so much from quebec (canada)!

[@nobodyspecial3338]

I couldn’t agree more Richard. So many people come out of his Permaculture courses with fairytale ideas because they’ve been sold a con job to do a course they have no reality no understanding of time and money and would send any legitimate business into bankruptcy if someone listened to their sales pitch. It’s a shame that Permaculture has turned into such a sales pitch of horse shit. I love your balance of practicality effort reward needs to be considered. Ultimately what really matters in life time with family and loved ones if you’re out there busting your arse to grow fruit and veggies which ultimately cost you 10 times the price in labour and effort and for the sacrifice of not spending time with family is it really worth it? Definitely need to integrate everything. Wise man my friend. Billy Mollison clearly passed his batten on to you. Cheers from Australia 🇦🇺

[@farmerbobsgarden5554]

very good job richard. for years i have been telling people in my area that they cannot learn to garden unless they plant the seeds.

[@modsa8901]

Wow! What a thorough, informed, experience backed and articulate dissertation taking and using a Holistic perspective and approach. Mega appreciation to Richard for all his hard work and sharing his experience and knowledge so generously

[@asbjorgvanderveer5050]

"Know what you know, and also know what you don't know" as you mentioned... is the key to improved design. Your conclusion about learning from hands-on experience, rather than just copying what others do is, IMO totally necessary in order achieve the best result... Creativity and experimentation are the key factors for improving existing systems of design. Tempered by a generous dose of humility! As vital lessons come through learning from one's own mistakes... rather than taking accepted learning as gospel truths....You can only fail- if you bother to try something out yourself in the first place! Your open-minded analysis - through personal field trials of the so-called proven systems have lead you to your own success. Repeated trial (and error) will eventually lead to building the better mousetrap... merely studying the rules, as prescribed by others who just teach (for a living) will not.

[@bevbond6152]

Excellent, intelligent approach to taking the best from permaculture and using it in a stable, sustainable system of food production. To my mind it has always been a major flaw in permaculture that the people using the systems are not trained or experienced farmers. I grew up on an old fashioned, traditional mixed farm, and am also a trained horticulturalist. I see misguided approaches and misunderstood theories, poor practice and downright bad animal husbandry in both modern agriculture and permaculture systems. The regenerative agriculture that you promote is the way to go Richard. More power to you.

[@peterellis5626]

This all points to the common misunderstanding that there is some collection of things that "is permaculture". Permaculture is a conceptual approach that works to find optimized solutions for a location, working with a broad, full and wide open tool set that fit within the ethics - Care for Earth, care for People and I'm currently liking Matt Power's expression of the third ethic as Care for the Future. It's a wide open design process that can integrate anything - as long as you can fit it in with the ethics.

[@sarahwallace8443]

So I am a California Archaeologist looking to transition into agriculture. I have to say, I love the work that you are doing. My emphasis is California prehistory and I am a landscape archaeologist by both training and intellectual bent. Both your holistic approach to ecological interactions within the human sphere and the environment and how that profits humans who do this is a key factor in the development of prehistoric societies globally. There are a number of examples in archaeological/anthropological studies and ethnographies in california that strongly parallel much of the work that you are talking about. What I am saying is that "what was true then, is true now" , and your success is a perfect example of that. These principals are critical in both the recognition of landscape carrying capacity for human consumption and also on how humans historically managed both the landscape and the plant and animal resources then and now. Those processes were conducted on a case by case basis in any given environment with a direct and intimate understanding of the how the natural environment works in waves ...or cyclic events. Thank you so much for your willingness to share your insight and experience.

[@DorisEdwards]

Excellent message Richard. The last part in your video deserves specific mention. Many people (often without previous experience) feel that succeeding at their PDC gives them the license to teach others. This is, indeed, the negative side of the Permaculture non formal approach.

[@tdtrecordsmusic]

One upgrade to humanity I would like to share is the idea of using real quantities. One way to put that into practice is seeking to NOT use adjectives. >> Explicit example = regarding your last message about permaculture world not having enough experience and teaching others. "Enough experience" changed to " having faced at least 2 hardships and succeeded " OR " turned at least 4 seasons into profits & debt free" ... 'enough experience' for some could mean an infinite amounts of things . . . This technique I call 'empty adjectives' . I've been doing it for 10 years or so and it makes a world of a difference. btw > luv ur channel , found it today

[@davewygonowski984]

Excellent!!! It's always wonderful to listen to the experts, who can show us, the greenhorns, how to do what they do best. RP, CS & JM are the three amigos, the new generation of market garden / farming experts... God Bless all. This is the right direction we all need to be heading in to help feed more people good nutritional high density foods.

[@AllQuiltedTogetherLLC]

Absolutely agree about not being boxed in!!! Too many variables to have a cookie cutter farm. Small co-op market gardens here in the US, work together on crop diversity so not to duplicate. Otherwise it just becomes sustainable gardening for ourselves, right? The USA needs more Richard Perkins & Curtis Stone educators and they’d see less illnesses from GMO & pesticide sprayed crops!! Bravo to you and Yohanna!! 💞👍🏼Blessings 🙏🏼

[@mikehurdiss226]

I really like how you've got everything 'down' and thought through on so many levels and your overall pragmatism. It's a real education listening to you in all of your videos...not just in terms of your insight, acquired through experience, but also in terms of your understanding of soil chemistry/biology and ecology. You make this stuff really interesting and relevant...and I think to anyone with a passion for growing. Thanks Richard.

[@DavyRayVideo]

"Consider anything that works, and throw out anything that doesn't". About 16:09. Truer words...

[@mslarson2324]

Thank you Richard for all you do. My key takeaway is your open mind. I practiced it daily in my prior business. Although automotive was not farming the eagerness I had to embrace the moment good or bad and make it greater was key to our success. I have always enjoyed gardening to supplement our produce need. Recently relocated to another state and climate had its challenges. I am thrilled with our results. Lessons learned timing crops to the climate and bug pressure of all things earwigs. Take care

[@steveneason893]

I concur that market gardening has the larger labor input. However I can ignore the fields for two or three days and they suffer no harm. Not so with the animals. Also, animals, other than poultry, require a lot more capital input, and therefore they are a more significant risk. If I lose a crop of early cauliflowers it's not a disaster -- if I lose a steer that's a big hit to my yield. (We're primarily a CSA market garden, but we have layers and have had steers in the past.)

[@regenerativeagriculture]

Sure, comes down to what you want to actually do. Most young folks I meet aren't cut out to farm; physically or mentally. We're growing up in a 'soft' generation, if I may say so. Of course, that's a generalization, but I'm quite sure about it. We've tried to document very low cost start ups on everything in a very expensive and harsh climate. If you can do it here, very rurally, then you can probably..,,

[@Isaacmantx]

WOW, such a great video. Thank you for putting in so much time and thought into this for us.

[@cheryljames7913]

Thank you for this video. I truly appreciate your humbleness & expertise. My husband and I are new to market gardening. I was raised on a hobby farm my husband the city boy. The diversity of your farm is amazing! We have chickens (17) 25 to start. The bear ate 7 & 1 rooster had to go. They just started laying. We are very excited to have our own eggs finally. Our season is much like yours I think. Maybe a month longer. Challenging but doable. I must say that I was sad to hear in your interview with Curtis that you may be stepping away from these info videos. :( My husband & I find them fascinating & informative. However, I understand priorities! Thank you so very much. Wishing you and yours much success and happiness!

[@jessicamckerrow4460]

I am so impressed with how you and Curtis are having this discourse. What a learning experience! Thank you for sharing.

[@billastell3753]

You have shared a lot of good advice in this video Richard. It's a tough line to walk between ideas and practical applications. If a person has a backyard garden they can try all the fads with little adverse impact on themselves or our food supply. If a person is trying to make a living in agriculture that is an entirely different world. One video I watched the gardener was promoting the use of straw mulch using a bale of straw for every 6 feet of garden as mulch. Disregarding the time to lay the straw, the cost would have made the vegetables unaffordable. Not only that but the voles who would have bred profusely and ate all the veggies grown. Well done and thumbs up Bro.

[@highspiritsfarm781]

Keeping to the 3 basic principles of permaculture in mind first. What has helped us here on the farm with permaculture is the concept that in Nature there is NO waste. For example...Weeds pulled can be mulch, compost or feed goats and chickens. Kitchen peelings fed to chickens.... everything we look at now is through a holistic lense. Thanks for the inspiration Richard, more of what you talk about applies to our Northern climates vs the tropics etc

[@joelegrand5903]

AMAN! Great response! My Father said never complain about a farmer with your mouth full!

[@jimkrahn7079]

The more you know, the more you know you don't know ☺

[@OfftoShambala]

And sometimes what you think you ‘know’ actually interferes with other things to know.

[@jimkrahn7079]

Confirmation

[@pilkyish]

Fantastic video. I love the philosophy behind permaculture, of observing and mimicking nature, but I can’t stand the cult/religious mindset surrounding it. I think you’ve got a very grounded approach. It’s people like you who will take permaculture mainstream. Efficiency and profitability are equally as important as ecological and environmental benefits. Go Richard!

[@pilkyish]

Sorry, but I just don’t see that. I’ve followed this channel for over 2 years. I’ve seen Richard pass on endless amounts of valuable information that so called permaculture guru’s would be charging and pointing to Patreon for. From what I’ve seen, Richard is happy to share his knowledge with traditional farmers, and as stated in this video, believes the future lies with collaboration between traditional ag and permaculture / holistic management. Again, the purist, cult, religious aspect of permaculture will be the death of it. It’s so fanatical and ugly. Keep it simple. Observe how nature has evolved on this rock for the last 4.7 billion years. Understand that the life forms we’ve currently got are the winners out of possibly millions of contestants. The ones with traits most suited for survival in our current climates. Now see where we can mimic the variables that enable those traits to thrive to agriculture in a way that doesn’t hinder the efficiency of production, as efficiency is key to any successful enterprise, and farming is business. Like it or not.

[@НемањаКостић-ц2я]

VICtorian071 You just don't have a clue what you're talking about, mate. Why are you here, anyway? To warn us about the evil, greedy Richard? Very funny.

[@НемањаКостић-ц2я]

I'm not Hema. Get lost.

[@permie3535]

I have known many of the Permaculture "students" who know-it-all, but would starve to death if they couldn't get their restaurant or supermarket food. They are dabblers who hate those who are putting food into their mouths.......foolish and short-sited crybabies.

[@carolinekloppert5177]

I totally agree with people criticizing permaculture on the grounds you mentioned. I do not practice growing to scale, just have an urban garden, but many of the criticisms hold on a small scale and I became very disillusioned by the gap between the promises in the popular memes and myths and the inability to deliver. Although I developed my system to be no cost and low maintenance, designed for a working city person who cannot be in the garden all day, the amount of work to build it has been huge, consuming and has distracted me from earning a living. I can also only go so far on zero cost, growing all my trees and vegetables myself from seed. For example building water storage and water systems in an urban space always involves money and I just couldn't develop these. But I have a further beef. Another aim of my garden is to be a wildlife sanctuary, and just as with other surface trappings of the permaculture design system I find the principles of local adaption are not carried through with plant choices. Instead there is a global plant choice which is not using native plants and is thus contributing to a lack of diversity and insect decline. People plant yarrow and think they are doing something against insect loss. Only planting natives can do this. Tamarillo, comfrey, yarrow etc. are like the other signs of being into permaculture: swales, herb spirals and hugelkultur and straw mulch and show lack of thought rather than engagement with the design principles. The design system was supposed to encourage interactivity with the environment, not enslavement to methods used in other countries. Instead I have learned other things. I've got to direct feed a urine and grey water mix through a hose onto the garden, and its results in explosive growth and apparently maximum photosynthesis, because these plants have NO pests. The garden is mostly a permanently planted mix of things, like a food forest, which is looking after itself, and pretty productive in terms of leaves and berries but not the full range of vegetables. Annual plants are concentrated in few beds which get a lot of inputs. Some are grey water wicking beds The others get 5 different kind of compost and there is just no way around working hard year in year out on my nursery, food forest pruning and grow bed care. So lazy gardening method... absolute nonsense... self sustaining ecosystem... only within certain parameters, and massive productivity and yields with minimal inputs.....not on this planet.

[@veemcg3682]

Yes Richard, I have enjoyed your video. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience. I pray that more young people will come to you and learn how to follow your lead. I'm a retired primary teacher...very different from what you are doing and I couldn't agree more that people should only teach what they know. Book learning should be preparation for hands on learning for there is no substitute for real life experience whatever we are trying to grasp. I like to follow Charles Dowding as well as I find his no dig approach helping me in my modest garden here in NI. Do keep making these videos so I can share and discuss them with old and young alike.

[@northatlantic2723]

I couldn't agree more with both you and Curtis. Also, your final point about not teaching without experience is so important!

[@stevewilkins5004]

Richard is a tremendous advocate for what I call the alternative society (alternative to what we presently call society?). Integrating ourselves with nature and utilizing the enormous potential of human ingenuity in a holistic manner... ideally in that "concept" one needs to include peaceful and cooperative social cohesion... Which is probably the hardest part. Soon enough I will launch a version of that concept called a Harmony community. No - its not an attempt at Utopia, nor is it a faith based system - it is merely a foundation for a village style community built on permaculture principles that organizes itself around natures bio-feed back examples. A form of bio-mimicry... taking care to monitor and edit out the predator relationship inherent in nature (if in fact that is possible at least within human interaction???). I'd like to believe that those who are both willing and able, those committed to a sound development plan and respectful of the need for cooperative effort are far more likely to work cohesively together in partnership because they have mutually beneficial purpose. Idealistic? Maybe - we'll see... This is not the time or place to expand on the sociological concept - it is an intention that will be implemented/attempted. Frankly, and from what I see, a very sick society posing as "life" is quickly developing around us... An alternative is desperately needed. Not to try to reinvent and encourage a more harmonious and compassionate form of society would seem to be irresponsible. The trick is... not to form a cult in the process.

[@MarlonVanderLinde]

Thanks well said. You just understand the principles of variance better than he does, and I am glad you made that clear. Without bias and prejudice.

[@Xxfades321xX]

great response video, it took me a while to watch Curtis stone's video due to the title but I think you've both brought up good points, I've been attempting to grow permaculture veggies for years now and I've come to think without putting a lot of work into breeding i have decided for my systems to implement more and more of the productive market gardeners techniques and am slowly growing out of my "hippie" ways of thinking... definitely agree that you're not properly addressing pest or disease issues if you're not looking at soil health

[@heathermacdonald6404]

Thanks, so much, for this super video! I watched Curtis's video and that lead me here. You both make really good points. I am so glad you reminded us all to be humble and learn, learn, learn,then practice for years, before setting ourselves up as teachers. I've been cruising the internet in search of ways to make my one acre property productive in an earth-loving way, and there are a lot of well-intentioned people offering advice. But what I really wanted was what I found here: A dedicated professional who is also an excellent presenter.

[@redwolfwoodsman726]

Very well done. This is a man who knows what he is talking about. Because he has done it.

[@brandonhorwath6351]

I'm glad that someone made a rebuttal. I give you extra credit for not disabling the comments.

[@OfftoShambala]

We need the wood chips or some mulch in my desert area. This is a place where your idea of an integrated approach is necessary and we must be acutely aware of water collection and efficiency as you alluded to.

[@taracmonroe]

Well said. I respect your humility and thoughtfulness. Refreshing to see. Thanks so much for your extremely helpful video!

[@Freakontheway]

Thank you for this explanation, I wasn't aware that in Permaculture-culture there were dogmas too... and that people debate about dogmas rather than how to apply nature's lessons into their homestead/farm. You made it quite clear though, and I just subscribed and will start binge watching your videos... to learn. And who knows, we might come over for a season and learn your lessons in real life. Thanks again.

[@1voluntaryist]

Beyond organic, beyond permaculture, there is "The Natural Way of Farming", the theory and practice of green philosophy as told by Masanobu Fukuoka.

[@tealkerberus748]

Hard to assert that any farming system is beyond Permaculture. Permaculture is a design system that incorporates locally-appropriate farming systems.

[@1voluntaryist]

@@tealkerberus748 "appropriate" is not obvious, may vary. "Do-nothing-growing" (Fukuoka) stresses a thoughtful approach before acting. This saves energy by stopping actions that subvert nature, make problems. It requires a quiet attention to what nature is doing correctly, a reverence for what has worked forever.

[@kathleenhunter3161]

Your video was a breathe of fresh air and a lot of sound advice I haven’t heard and place else. Only some of the names I’m not familiar with and have no idea what they are like the tool or method to to deepen soil fertility instead of putting in swales 34:22

[@sarafriberg9689]

Thankyou for sharing your knowledge and thoughts about scale, food production and holistic management. This puzzle piece was missing!!!

[@Whistlewalk]

I see another factor that needs to be taken into account with international food production and distribution and that is that whatever food production system we use must also take into account the impact on the total global environment. Every time a vegetable or fruit is shipped from one part of the planet to another, water is also being shipped. Too often that water is being shipped from areas that are using unsustainable irrigation techniques (eg. California, Mexico, S. America) to grow food while it is disrupting, maybe even destroying, local long-term water sustainability. This also applies to other land resources that are hard for some locals to replenish both financially and logistically, such as mineral content and soil fertility. Those resources are usually sent to the northern hemisphere to supply winter food, but we don't send the water and/or nutrients back so the agriculture that sustains us is sustainable.

[@curioushooter]

Great Video. I really think you are much more in agreement with Mr. Stone than in any sort of disagreement. As I see it there are basically a few problems with the larger permaculture movement. The first is that the founders of the movement came from particular climates/soil types. Where I live the problem is TOO MUCH WATER. Southern Indiana has clay rich soil and 40+ inches of rainfall per year. We actually make our rain systems the OPPOSITE of keyline design, making ditches perpendicular to the contour. We do put ponds and other catchments in the bottoms of these places to catch the water an not it allow it to run off the farm, but these are basically reservoirs that we them pump out during the dry spells. They also provide a place for ducks and an emergency freshwater supply. Another problem is that most permacultre systems are both high start up costs and low efficiency. They are long term (in theory at least) but I've found that most people are simply not energetic or affluent enough to lavish time on projects that some permacultralists do. Scale is key.

[@nabooshaman6107]

I am often surprised how dogmatic permaculture practitioners can be. For example, I am often criticized for short term use of herbicide to establish perennial systems (such as fruit trees). But organic tilled systems that repeatedly destroy the soil ecosystem are somehow OK. Similarly, biodynamic systems that seem to be largely based in superstition are applauded. Permaculture is about designing functional systems based in facts and the science of nature. The strength of that single design system is to create unique solutions to any particular location. Dump the woo-woo and dogma and perhaps we might design ourselves out of the emerging ecological crisis.

[@CarbonConscious]

One of your best videos Richard and I agree 1000% with your last statement about people teaching without having sufficient hands on experience. I see that happening a lot here in Portugal with teachers from outside our climate zone that preach herb spirals like it's a sacred altar. This is perhaps the biggest reason why the permaculture movement has started to become a bit of a joke.

[@jochenwagner2782]

I am in Spain, and my herb spiral works fine. What's your Problem with it?

[@CarbonConscious]

@@jochenwagner2782 are you irrigating it?

[@jochenwagner2782]

@@CarbonConscious In Summer, yes.

[@CarbonConscious]

@@jochenwagner2782 herb spirals were designed to facilitate drainage to be able to grow Mediterranean herbs in wetter areas. In the Mediterranean there is no need for this and they end up requiring excessive watering for plants which don't need any water when planted directly in the ground. In the Mediterranean herb spirals dry out too fast

[@homesteadnewbie1905]

I love your humble heart and I love everything you teach us online !!! Thanks 🙏 for Every Knowledges you had sharing Wish the best for you and your family with Regards from a Cambodian woman farmer 😉😉😉😉

[@wendynulty3867]

Thanks for such a great video. I am a big fan of permaculture as I like the social responsibility it has and the good it does globally but I think it is like anything it evolves and the issue is that as its a relatively new movement, one generation ago maybe theres still a preciousness or protectivism, I believe that will change over time. Completely agree about data collection and it not just being observation but measured observation. I think it has lots to offer and many people who got 'the bug' so to speak got it because permaculture was the thing that hooked them in but those people are now looking at no dig, holistic, regenerative agriculture and whatever new ecologically, naturally protective farming that emerges that can feed growing populations. It also like any movement has a lot of people that just want to tag onto something to make money and I would love to see things done that put the environment with a realistic standard of living. I also think that anyone who can critically appraise information will look at all these approaches and take what works for them. Keep these discussions going!

[@boomsmah]

It's good to get away with the dogma's. Holmgren and Mollison are genius. People lose perception and cling on concepts, it's like a religion. I didn't hear any thing that wasn't there in the first place. People forgot I suppose. Thanks for clearing this up.

[@milahu]

"derived from first principles" as they say : )

[@johndoh5182]

So many very knowledgeable farmers that have taken up sustainable farming (for the earth), which basically talks about soil health are basically following a natural pattern, but it's funny in that it also converts to manufacturing in a way. Elon Musk, who I don't like as a person, but as an engineer involved in developing a business is very smart says about Tesla, the product is not the car, the product is the factory. In this type of farming, the product is not what you are growing, but it's the soil. If you grow the soil correctly, everything else works.