Permanent Enlightenment?

[@Yeti_Boop]

Hey Brad, I've been reading your books since 2008 and to this day you're my favorite zen teacher. Of course I love Katagiri, Okumura and Suzuki, but you've always been down to earth and in my opinion honest about something that people often dress up and overhype. Just wanted to say thanks for the books, these videos and occasionally making me laugh with a dumb joke.

[@mkeolver]

Thank you for being a teacher to many you will never know. 🙏

[@hammersaw3135]

I also agree with your idea, about how some people have caught a 'glimpse' and used their knowledge about the nature of suffering to fool others, and use them to make profits.

[@LENIN990]

This is phenomenon is known as good hair day :) Viva Ziggy!

[@HardcoreZen]

They are rare for me!

[@brandonwells1175]

Okay... the Viva Ziggy bit alone is worth my like and favorable comment on principle LOL.

[@Bee-q1d]

This really made me think. It's kinda stressful to keep striving for this end of seeking to have an abiding enlightenment state. Sometimes I'll get a feeling of oneness, I guess, when looking at the beauty of trees and nature or during meditation. But I've heard stories that if you're enlightened, you feel like one with kitchen appliances, lamps, and literally everything in existence. And they say if you look at someone, they become like they're actually yourself. But, I've never experienced oneness like that. Just a strong love for others, compassion, and more happiness exc. That's why I think I'm not in an abiding awakened. Any thought? Idk 🤷‍♀️

[@HardcoreZen]

You're just as awakened as you are. It doesn't make any sense to compare the state you have now to what you imagine it should be. Don't stress about it!

[@michaelmcclure3383]

​​​​​​@@HardcoreZen Hi Brad, here's another Ramesh Balsekar story. When I met him in 96 I'd been on a more disciplined meditation path and something happened, some kind of breakthrough and i told Ramesh about it and he said "this is the natural state, what Ramana called the i-i (no me in between". Well.. I took from natural state just that it's what I am.. and it's not produced from any practice. It's permanent to the extent that what I am is.. But states aren't permanent, even rarefied oneness states.. and enlightenment is surely not a state.. its what is whatever state arises. So much of the time people are striving for a permanent enlightenment or oneness state and this becomes a big part of the misery of seeking.. seeming to get it and then seeming to lose it. But we never lose the essential truth, because we are that. It can only seem to be obscured by ignorance. I fully agree that there is no real eradication of the ego, at least while the body functions. As Ramesh liked to point out, if you called Ramana or any sage by name they'd probably respond, so there is some sense of differentiated identification with a particular bodymind. In moments that definitely can be absent (and it's coming and going proves it's not self.. but anyway), but for the most part although illusory the person is still apparently there. Interestingly even after this breakthrough I never thought anything was finished, I wasn't seeking like before, but I wasn't staying away from the teaching either. And at a certain point for no apparent reason all this existential terror started arising. I remember ringing Ramesh and telling him I feel like I'm going to die, he said well first thing is check it out with a Dr haha. But this fear of annihilation finally came to a climax where I felt swallowed up by the void or something and it was like lall clinging slipped away... well how do you describe it, there is nothing to fall into, because there is no other.

[@HardcoreZen]

@@michaelmcclure3383 That’s interesting. Thank you.

[@michaelmcclure3383]

@HardcoreZen well, I'd never heard that term 'natural state' before that moment. I don't know about UGs use of the term, but the Ramana people say it's a translation of sahaja, meaning spontaneous or natural.. To me (and I might be wrong), something natural and spontaneous isn't the result of effort.. because it could also be translated as effortlessness already the case. Any effort or practice might be useful, but to counteract the patterns or tendencies that seem to obscure this, not for maintaining or producing it, .because we already are it. But some who hear the 'natural state' message are entirely anti practice... Like UG on meditation and many others. Well I enjoy meditation and I'm not doing it to get somewhere. One of the big anti effort teachers J Krishnamurti apparently did yoga for hours everyday, I thought this really demonstrated the situation here Ashtavakra Gita 1.15 says "The practice of meditation keeps one in bondage". Later at 18.75 it says "When a weak man gives up meditation he falls prey to whims and desires". The practice of meditation keeps one in bondage if we believe we need to do it to be what we are. Seeking a state called liberation or whatever.. means I must believe I'm not already what that represents. Yet, hearing that effort doesn't produce what already is and therefore abandoning practice, that is disastrous too haha

[@TYPHON2713]

I've been practicing on my own for a few years, but I just found a zendo with a pretty active sangha. It's Sanbo Kyodan. Could you please make a video about your take on this style?

[@sugarfree1894]

It can last forever, so to speak, but it doesn't prevail at all times in all settings. It can be there to dip into and apply as and when. It's helpful to practice ongoingly in order to prepare the mind to have that experience in a way that can actually help, and to develop the capacity to sustain it as I describe.

[@dougbanner6165]

Was Nisaragadata Maharaj in a constant enlightened state? Seems like it.

[@AnthonyMetivierMMM]

I've had this kind of dropping away and it lasted a looooong time because I maintained my practice. But as I was telling Steve on Guru Viking one time, I got the weird idea to drop my practice as an experiment. Oh boy did "reality" ever come rushing back in. I'm glad I did it, but I learned a lot about how important it is to keep practicing. Scientifically, I believe some people have concluded that it's about tonic dopamine paired with increasing task positive network dominance over default mode network dominance. I think that explanation is reasonable, even though I am only a witness to neuroscience and its wonders. Maybe the Penrose orchestrated objective reduction stuff will give us even more data to consider when it comes to matters of when exactly these enlightened states take place in time.

[@lopezb]

Good talk, down-to-earth. What works for me is my daily practice, painful though it often is. If I don't sit, or procrastinate, I always suffer more, in the end. Occasionally there can be special moments. I found this more likely when I was able to do a sesshin, Sadly that's rare now! But when there was a teacher around to be with afterwards, it was really cool, and made things deeper....it's good you point that out. This analysis helps me undrstand why I no longer search out books like Krishnamurti and all that....I think you hit the nail on the head, as to why a path and a tradition can be much more reliable. But I don't recently search or hope for something explosive; it is just enough to sit daily and live the challenges of my life!

[@Itzkitchka]

Great hair, great video. Thank you, Brad AND Ziggy. 🌸🌹🌻

[@philgundy4798]

Interesting. Enlightenment is permanent in that it changes you permanently. You can't undo it. You can't unsee something you have seen, no matter how hard you try. On the other hand you can't stay in the moment of enlightenment, so in that sense it isn't permanent. It is something we need to have experienced, and then move on with our lives, permanently changed.

[@JimTempleman]

The best description I've found is given in the: "Sūtra of Mahā-Prajñā-Pāramitā Pronounced by Mañjuśrī Bodhisattva" Translated from Sanskrit into Chinese in the Southern Liang Dynasty by The Tripiṭaka Master Mandra from Funan Which can be easily found by searching on the Net. It's called: Anuttara-samyak-sambodhi. (Sorry, but just as you when fulfill any desire your self grasps at, reading about it is not going to be as satisfying as you had hoped. But the description is spot on, and for 'technical reasons,' that's as good as it gets.)

[@yudimeltzer123]

Ive had enlightenment experiences and i agree with you. The permanent enlightenment thing is a traumatized way of looking for a magical solution to our problems, either by putting people on pedestals, or avoiding our own traumas.

[@Epmd419]

"[Enlightenment] it's going to be completely different from anything you could have ever conceived of it being" Yes.

[@chrisplaysdrums09]

This is your best video to date. Wholly agree with you on several points. Diggin’ the hair!

[@t.c.bramblett617]

always appreciated, always loved.

[@alloloiseau5259]

Brad, this is what I like a lot about Zen and about your channel, this video encapsulate this, it isn't so much about if metaphysical things and enlightment are achievable, for they are and people reach them either with tradition,drugs or spontaneously, what it's all about is "sure, and what then?" about continuity and humility in our experience and in trying to eep u with the present in the less clingy way. IMO anyway!

[@DavidJones-bl5wu]

Permanent Enlightenment sounds so religious to me, like some Christian folks who insist on a Once Saved, Always Saved doctrine. It sounds great, but I'm not sure it really works that way. I dunno, maybe it does. I already believe in Enlightenment for me and some folks as nibbles and dribbles instead of one massive Matrix download to the brain. In all, anyone who experiences an Enlightenment moment should probably sit with that for a bit, then go do dishes.

[@enlight17]

Well said.

[@hammersaw3135]

I agree with your teacher, there is no permanent state, and upon realizing one is in "that state" one loses it instantly like light dust thrown against the wind.

[@saralawlor780]

So down to earth, funny and wise as usual and what’s great hair day! 👍😊👏🏿

[@thomasrutledge5941]

Your hair is enlightened.

[@sissiphys]

Daniel Ingram is as far as i can judge a really genuine practitioner. He has a completely different approach to zen. He is systematic, analytical & works very close with research about chances & risks of meditation. Also i think there is often a misunderstanding with claims of entitlement. With enlightenment, he explicitly states that he is not perfect or has reached the highest level of morality but he talks in a very nerdy way how one can train certain brain states. I value both perspectives of zen and his analytical, finding myself in a middle perspective often or a colourful mix.

[@AlexReyn888]

What do you think of Jim Newman? He had nice podcast with Sam Harris couple of years ago on the topic

[@brandonwells1175]

I once stumbled upon this line in a Tibetan text, "Enlightenment is impermanent." A student of mine immediately retorted, "Impermanent is Enlightenment," at which point both she and I had "an expansive awakening."

[@RoadTrip-bc2ps]

I appreciate again and again that you make this clarification that enlightenment does not bring forth saints by itself. The "general knowledge", if you would ask people on the street would be the gentle smiling dalai lama, full of compassion, going for peace. That was my beginning on the path, too. And many buddhists like a little bit to keep up with this myth, is my observation. But how about peace / being peaceful? Where is it located in this mission, if it does not come naturally with entlightenment? Is it after all "just" an ego-education? With children: "Don´t beat eachother kids!". Or does it come with a "still mind" - as Jiddu Krishnamurti said? And in that sense has a connection with spiritual practice? Thanks.

[@detektivlord2077]

Have you red "supreme doctrine" from Hubert Benoit? Here he kind of describes what this kind of state could be and how it maybe could happen.

[@jefffedorkiw1619]

courtroom phil spector is the new face of permanent enlightenment in my mind, and it's enough to scare me off the concept for good.

[@regnalsel]

The closest Pointing Out Descriptor of KENSHO is: “PROPOFOL with AWARENESS” 🙏🏻🌈

[@jonwesick2844]

Does Buddhism ever seem like a bait and switch? “Get your nirvana for just $9.99!” “I’d like some nirvana, please.” “Sorry, kid. We’re all out. How about this used rakusu?”

[@gurugeorge]

I think it's absolutely right to say that there's no such thing as a permanent enlightenment _experience,_ but it does seem like in a lot of classical traditional cases from various cultures, the claim of the old masters is that there's a point at which one is "finished" or "done," with no further seeking or work to be done to attain anything, and that condition (which isn't an experiential state, but a state of that human being's total system, so to speak) is what they meant by "enlightenment" strictly so-called. So the temporary experience, while it's definitely important (if you're pursuing these paths) to have, so you know what the hell you're talking about, and while it's monstrous beyond all imagining, full stop, at right angles to all ordinary, everyday experience, is really (despite the fact that it might have been the culmination of months of intensive, focused effort) just the start of one's journey proper, more like a foot in the door, or a glimpse of something, a glimpse that gives you diamond-hard confidence that there's "something to" all this business, and certainly if you're in a tradition, will give you a lot of motivation to continue (and usually in Zen it seems it was the cue to go a-wandering and test your insight with other teachers), but as such it doesn't make a permanent change and can't be made permanent (though as always, one has to add the caveat, "probably in most cases"). (Side note: apart from the con artist type that you mention, I think there's another type where they're kind of dipping in and out of the experience a lot, and for a long time, maybe even months or years, but it will always fade out eventually - the trick there being that they're absolutely sincere, but they get into trouble when the condition ends and they're lumped with the high seat and have to live up to something they no longer possess.) A saying that popped into my mind once years ago on this topic (being someone who's only had the temporary experience on a few occasions): "Insight is being a human being having an episode of being God, enlightenment proper is being God having an episode of being a human being." That always sounded kinda neat to me, but I'm not sure what it means, or if it's true or even relevant! :)

[@mattrkelly]

I love Daniel Ingram 😅

[@blorkpovud1576]

Even though you've advised us against believing your enlightenment experience, I'm afraid I do and simply can't help it. Regarding what enlightenment reveals about us and reality, I have thought the same thing: What do we do about it? Has anyone come up with even a beginning of an answer?

[@fhoniemcphonsen8987]

More Stooges content plz. We all need a spiritual friend. VIVA ZIGGY!

[@HardcoreZen]

I may just do that!

[@samwilliams352]

"Most of your money will not be going into hair research" haha

[@wilhelmmischief8416]

The thumbnail for this video created an ear worm for me. It was the Kinks Permanent Waves.

[@SaxonShore]

Shunryu Suzuki was once asked why he never spoke about his enlightement experience. His wife, who was listening, jumped up and said "because he never had one!"

[@FredDittrich]

For a person who has already done the hard work of gaining non-social credentials (e.g. trade skills), who has proven themselves to both themselves and to their peers, a rock solid noun model of self naturally forms. IF they continue exercising free floating curiosity, each and every of these itemized certainties (e.g. I am an introvert, etc.) will find exceptions depending upon circumstances. At this point in their personal development there comes a crisis wherein the very usefulness of the noun model itself suddenly has that of an old Santa Claus suit and is discarded. At the same instant the verb model of self naturally emerges. Does this mean that they can no longer competently deal with their Federal taxes? No. Throwing away the Santa Claus suit does not make it inaccessible, and the noun model of self arises, the taxes are done, and the noun model of self passes away. Gassho the Fred process

[@nicbarth3838]

Since enlightenment is not permanent then are monastics wasting their time? I thought the whole point of meditating at these monasteries was to attain a permanent change, like enlightenment. This being transient is like baking cookies without being able to eat them, while people tell stories about the existence of cookies and being able to someday eat them but if they can never be the new default then there is no point whatsoever, being a Buddhist would literally be only to be moral as a person in how you exist and no enlightenment, but as far as I know anyone can generate moral principles to live from so why be a Buddhist? from this video if I internalize the message really just feels like religion.

[@Rickpa]

Phil Specter is our permanent Buddha nature.

[@ali-karimi1]

Why is Ziggy this cute?

[@brandonwells1175]

Ah U.G. Krishnamurti... my own teacher was annoyed that I enjoyed UG's "The Mystique of Enlightenment," saying that UG must be a sociopath, etc., ... I disagreed... I found him quite a sober voice among myriad voices of delusion.

[@speed2freedom]

Wasn't Buddha permanently enlightened?

[@MrStrocube]

Phil’s hair, lol! 😂

[@humanosc]

🙏🙏🙏

[@angelikah.305]

🙏👍🧘‍♀️

[@Formelyknownasnone]

Nice Schecter Ultra iii

[@randyklutts3495]

Dude, how many guitars do you own?

[@guido3771]

You fall for a trap and just repeat zen dogma. You speak about seeing a master who had that experience ... But how could you verify it? Either you are on the same "level" or you just believe him or you think because he speaks of similar things happening that he must know about it - but you could both be wrong! I tell you what is more likely: If you had such an experience, you don't need anyone to verify it (unless you want to be certified in a tradition). Instead you rather see through all the fakes including some of the "masters"" you had almost asked for a confirmation. Kobun Chino for example didn't even know himself. As heroic as it may appear, to drown as a non swimmer trying to save another non swimmer (his daughter) tells you that he hadn't understood reality or suchness at all.

[@HardcoreZen]

Sure. It must be that way if you say so.

[@guido3771]

@@HardcoreZen no it needn't. But it surely doesnt work the way you preach.

[@HardcoreZen]

@@guido3771 You must know!

[@Joejoe-q6w]

Master brad🧎‍♂️🇯🇵

[@kevinmeercat919]

UG stole that from the real Krishnamurti. !

[@svetokolibarski9160]

No disrespect but this rant reminds me of how lousy enlightenment is defined in Zen and people struggle to make sense of their experiences. I can only recommend to study deeply certain selected strains of Theravada to get a detailed, cataloguesque knowledge of states and experiences instead of trying to invent the wheel. Also, the idea that Buddha was not fully enlightened all the time is grotesque.

[@JimTempleman]

All enlightened states are equal, but some are more equal than others.

[@HardcoreZen]

You think so?

[@Smoggyrob1]

"...also, the idea that Buddha was not fully enlightened all the time is grotesque." Well, you're *really* going to hate my idea that the Buddha is a literary character invented centuries after he's said to have lived.

[@garynaccarato4606]

Did you not hear what you wanted to hear?

[@svetokolibarski9160]

@@Smoggyrob1 Actually, I entertained this idea myself for a long time. I also sat many sesshins with one teacher who subscribed to it. Now I came to the conclusion it is a bit absurd. It is also a narrative agnostic device some guys use to show they are rational and serious and not some hazy-minded spiritual people as others often perceive them to be when they learn about they practice.