Polish military modernisation & why are they buying Korean tanks? - Featuring

[@PerunAU]

Big thanks to World of Tanks for sponsoring this video: Sign up here if interested: bit.ly/3UuHS1h If you are new, the promo code TANKMANIA should get you the following: -7 Days Premium Account -250k credits -Premium Tank Excelsior (Tier 5) -3 rental tanks for 10 battles each: Tiger 131 (Tier 6), Cromwell B (Tier 6), and T34-85M (Tier 6) Also many thanks to the Chieftain for appearing to give his evaluation of K2 in the Polish context - it's always good to have YT's resident tanker onboard. Finally thanks to all viewers as usual - I'm feeling better this week but needed more time to work on the next Ukraine topic, so it was great as always to take a break and look into the world of defence economics. After doing the Germany video - I warn this might be a bit of a jarring change...

[@SpicyMeatAhBall]

forsen

[@jozefkozon4520]

Emo Emu. Have a nice evening.

[@akumaking1]

Hi Perun. This video makes me think of countryballs where Poland and South Korea bond over their shared history of being punching bags for their neighbors

[@extramild1]

Hey Perun - If you thought the relationship between Ukraine and Russia was toxic wait until you meet your team mates in WoT. :-)

[@reneprovosty7032]

Poland imho is justly paranoid. they got lucky after the Napoleonic wars and got statehood. sense then they have been a minor power between 2 great powers ever since.

[@imperialisticvonhabsburg3149]

Poland: So you are saying 8 HIMARS are enough to stop an entire Russian army? The West: Yes. Poland: *I'D LIKE 500*

[@chrisb9143]

"Why?" Poland: "To put 400 of them on the border with Germany"

[@davidty2006]

Basically the whole "Ill take your entire stock" meme.

[@kschleic9053]

8 Himars didn't stop the Russian army... Ukrainian citizen soldiers with NLAWs did. Once Russia was stopped, 8 Himars have proven sufficient to disrupt an entire army's supply chain though.

[@TheDominionOfElites]

@@kschleic9053 either way it seems like you can achieve a lot with 500 HIMARs. I laughed when I first saw the reports of how much they’d ordered a couple weeks back.

[@augustuslunasol10thapostle]

@@davidty2006hats not even the entire stock it’s 100 over the entire amount of himars around

[@niknitro8751]

It makes perfect sense that Poland got a new tank that can deal with mountainous terrain. They just think 2 steps ahead and are ready to defend the Polish border in the Ural mountains.

[@Billy01113]

🤣 ... against a Chinese invasion

[@SianaGearz]

Carpathian mountain tank, docile until you anger it. If and when you do, it plays loud music, flashes lights, and shouts "I AM POLE".

[@IntrusiveThot420]

@@SianaGearz THREE SALVOES FOR THE HONOR OF POLAND

[@ipodman1910]

@@SianaGearz ah I see a man of culture sharing relevant references…!!!

[@jaroslawwalczak2855]

It's not about mountains. It's about lakes and swamps of north Poland. Mazury, Suwałki, Podlasie.

[@Talon3000]

75 IQ: If Russia invades, NATO will not react fast enough to save Poland from Russia. 100 IQ: If Russia invades, NATO *will* react fast enough to save Poland from Russia. 130 IQ: If Russia invades, NATO will not react fast enough to save Russia from *Poland.*

[@DivinityOfBLaze]

To be fair considering Russias performance in Ukraine with a surprise attack I suspect any Russian attempts on Poland will end with Polish troops marching in Moscow. Jokes aside probably grinding down the Russians into absolutely nothing relatively quickly. Paper tiger meet flamethrower.

[@jesusschizus272]

True, true.

[@awannagannaful]

150 IQ: Russia doesn't want to invade Poland. But they will f them up if they put more NATO crap close to Russia's borders. Ur welcome.

[@DivinityOfBLaze]

@@awannagannaful That's a 0 IQ take. Not only because there is no way in hell Russia will invade Poland seeing how hilariously badly we're doing against Ukraine of all countries, but because fighting NATO itself will be the death of Russia. We're a third world army pretending to be a first world power. Can't even have scopes on all our AKs just what the hell kind of joke is that? What first world military doesnt equip scopes on their guns in 2010? Sorry its 2022 and we still didn't/can't/corruption. It's like not having a tank or air force in WW2. Stupid. Not to mention its not that NATO stuff is close to Russias borders. It's that sadly we are doing our absolute best to ensure that all our neighbours join NATO by doing the dumbest shit then acting surprised when they decide to join NATO. Wow. Shocking.

[@marekkubuj1776]

Love your sense of humour Absolutely classic

[@twinsiesyt]

As a South Korean, I would like to add one important aspect to this partnership. That is, Poland can become a supply hub for South Korea in the case of war in Korea. Building our own weapons instead of using the US made systems came with potential supply issues. So Poland can solve this issue of steady supply of replacement parts and equipment.

[@jacekk.9196]

That is the main reason which everybody in Europe misses. Especially the scorned Germans, who always, fail to notice their industry glacial pace of production for large number of arms. Heck, it takes them 4+ years already to produce 44 tanks 2A7 for Hungary which were ordered back in 2018, with the first batch to be dekivered in 2023. First batch!!!! Germans are "quick" as hell!

[@djscotty06]

That’s an interesting point. The more friends the better

[@soltys1986]

As a Pole I agree And find our cooperation as way to long term friendship between our nations. By the way three is quite a lot of Koreans on Polish univesities. Very kind And polite people. It is good to have such a friends (Korean Nation) in heart of Asia. I can also mention that i find history of your country interesting. Greetings from PL to South Korea And for all Koreans. Those who suffers from tyrany in the north as well.

[@andrewparsons3344]

As an american, please dont count on my government to help you. Theyve been emptying our stockpiles to help ukraine, and gave the majority of our strategic fuel reserves to china. So we're low on fuel, and a growing number of advanced weapons, not to mention all the equipment left for the taliban in afghanistan. Itll take 10 years to restock everything, additionally our air force and naval aviation readinness is the lowest since ww2. The hundreds of thousands of flight hours racked up from 20 years of war in iraq and afghanistan has really taken a toll on our aircraft fleet. Top all that off with our military industrial complex's notoriously slow production rate, Poland is smart to have gone to south korea for tanks and artillery and south korea is smart to be cranking out their own systems at a rate that puts my country to shame. Best of luck to both your nations, i do hope poland stays peaceful and south korea continues to build itself into a hard target uninviting for the north and china to attack. Peace is best maintained through strength.

[@AviationNut]

And Poland is also supposed to become the main hub for Korean arms sales in Europe.

[@Ezasur]

I'm a simple Hungarian, I see Poland buying 1k MBTs and hundreds of HIMARS-like systems and I hit like.

[@05KAR]

Shame the Hungarian government is corrupted by Moscow and Hungarians still supports it even after the open war against Ukraine was launched.

[@19MAD95]

I’m a simple Pole, I see a familiar meme and say Polak, Węgier - dwa bratanki and I hit the like.

[@Ezasur]

@@19MAD95 It is much appreciated!

[@adamciemniewski764]

Everything indicates that it will be areound 200-250 Himars + 250 technical trucks and loaders. But still, the number is pretty big.

[@k.p.636]

@@adamciemniewski764 plus 253 Chunmoo

[@Deamon93IT]

South Korea: "What do you want and how much?" Poland: "Yes, and yes"

[@fulcrum2951]

Definitely happened

[@Praktical_]

The best way of buying arms

[@piotrd.4850]

SK: OK....when? Poland: uh, day before yesterday?

[@krissteel4074]

I know its juvenile to be happy about Poland getting lots of everything because it will be a nightmare to work on But... its just a lot of everything, which is really cool however you try to justify it otherwise!

[@aker1993]

One thing that South Koreans is willing to make technology transfers to Poland with no strings attached. This is why many countries today are buying military hardware and support they are willing to sell at a affordable price.

[@Herbaling]

Hey Perun, I'm by no means any analyst or any military specialist, however, as a trusty ol' Pole, I can chip in with one thing that I think was worth to talk about in your presentation, which is history of deliveries of western EU equipment to Poland as well as political relationships with countries such as Germany or US In Poland it's always looked down upon when it comes to being dependent on Germans as they haven't proved a reliable partner in terms of military orders or deliveries. In the past it was always a lot of issues with German contracts and their deliveries, and I believe Polish government has a bad tase in the collective mouth. I believe the same would apply for France. While US is great in terms of equipment quality, we don't have much negotiating power with them and are reliant on them in most of cases as we consider them our biggest partner. While that is great for them, it also results in higher price for their equipment and gives political leverage over Poland which is not something I believe, any country would want. Then comes in South Korea who actually seems to treat Poland as a partner rather than someone to take advantage of, who seems to be a reliable weapons exporter on a global market, and we don't have history with them like we do with Germans or French. They see us as an opportunity to gain European market and therefore we have much bigger leverage in negotiations and future relations (joint projects like you mentioned).

[@piotrd.4850]

Well Korea has something to gain from business in Poland, already runs impressive industrial investments in Poland in other sectors and yeah, absolutely have been where we have been - but They managed go out.

[@pansepot1490]

One thing that Perun didn’t mention is that military spending has a very different impact for the economy of a country when the suppliers are foreigners vs national. If all the equipment is imported the expense is a net cost. If it’s manufactured in Poland the expense becomes an investment in local jobs and companies which will boost their economy, increase tax revenues and thus decrease the net cost of military spending. One of the reasons the US can sustain their huge military budget is because most of the money is spent in the US economy: some economists have described it as a huge welfare program. 😅 Looks like Poland has also a economic as well as security goal in pursuing the development of their own military industry.

[@szpetnyjan]

The Koreans built themselves up from a collection of fishing villages to an Asiatic Tiger. They are also relatively small compared to China and Japan. Like Poland is to Germany and Russia. They understand the up-and-coming mentality. They see what we're trying to do

[@Kadwid]

Wanted to say the same. The tech transfers and business culture are underestimated in many analyses.

[@ldcbossrob3938]

@CockOfJustice Good ole Samsung. Lol

[@stylefactory4833]

I'm Korean. Along with this contract, Poland and Korea decided to create brilliant works with engineers in the development of next-generation K3, AS-22, KF-21 block3 and K9A3. Polish and Korean like brothers who share the same fate. fight fire with fire!! all for one one for all!! 🤩

[@Statueshop297]

Can the uk join the party 🎉 please😢

[@max_7344]

@@Statueshop297 yes. UK is already in K9 club, if I’m not wrong

[@Alex2K]

Romania also is interested into the K program

[@max_7344]

@@Alex2K yes, Romania is about to join, too. Welcome to homie!

[@artfender7300]

I think it is also a good strategic decision because we are living in very uncertain times and if, God forbid, there was a war on Korean peninsula Korean local military industry production would be affected. Thanks to this partnership Korea will have a backup military production safely located in Poland which could supply Korean army in case of Korean domestic production being impacted or maybe even destroyed during the war.

[@zephyrback5093]

I’m glad that Perun is becoming the Forrest Gump of military logistics and economics; somehow meeting everyone with military knowledge and having them feature in his videos.

[@artnull13]

Logistics is like a box of chocolates….

[@ED-es2qv]

I sat through the ending credits waiting to see a list of when the various people died, because I thought Forrest was based on a real person. I swear it made the whole movie better.

[@vadstradamus]

Wonder which one of us is Jenny 😂

[@michaireneuszjakubowski5289]

"Anyway, like I was sayin', shrimp is the fruit of the sea. You can barbecue it, boil it, broil it, bake it, saute it. Dey's uh, shrimp-kabobs, shrimp creole, shrimp gumbo. Pan fried, deep fried, stir-fried..."

[@SLICK-GLN]

Well he is a Gump and a nerd lol

[@tziganeofwales]

"I don't want to go down a rabbit hole" - That glorious ship has already sailed 🙂 👍👍

[@ericwolf9664]

The "Don't be threatening me with a good time" memes were running through my head.

[@Ciborium]

Not only has that ship sailed, but Drachinfiel has done a video about it.

[@muhammadnursyahmi9440]

@@Ciborium the one that came to my mind is that when he made a 6 hours long Q&A videos about ships.

[@JamesC785]

I suspect that a rabbit hole to Perun would be a worm hole to the majority of his audience - especially to me :))

[@Haamre]

@@muhammadnursyahmi9440 I believe there was some video, from the "5 minute guide to ships (more or less)" video, that got into...something like 1.5h territory.😅

[@Haamre]

Hi Perun, just a small personal observation from a Pole: I remember that the original modernization plans were much more modest, and there was some talks ("leaks", if you want), after one of the annual "defensive annual war games" that apparently the US (I think it might've been somewhere around 2018-2020, or so) said bluntly to some of our Generals, that we (and the Baltics) should prepare & train for "guerilla warfare" (Javelin-style), because NATO would be incapable to defend us if Russia went all in (and US would be occupied with "something" in the Pacific...) - and that we'd be only rescued after few months. At that time, the scenarios mostly ended with us loosing and Warsaw falling/being cut off after 5 days or so. I remember a quite visible change in the stance of the narrative both from the government & the military after Bucha & Irpien massacres were brought to light though - and it seems that now the consensus is that "you cannot let the Russians into our territory more than it would be necessary to activate article 5". Also the "need" for so many HIMARS/MLRS systems is due to the wish to "neutralize" the enemy (assembly points, logistics, etc.) "beyond our border" (if - and after - the war breaks out), to avoid the devastation of ones own territory, which is associated with staying on pure defensive.

[@Giganfan2k1]

Makes a lot of sense. Hope this doesn't go down. I am happy that you guys are preparing.

[@elijahsnow3119]

Sensible approach. I also wonder if you guys aren’t looking to be able to assist the Baltic states if necessary. Poles giving fire support to Lithuania from outside of Lithuania could be a real thing with the longer range systems (as an example). It’s interesting to me that the Poles generally seem to be taking this deadly seriously. Russia hasn’t been all that shy about stating the Warsaw Gap is on their to do list.

[@dylanc9174]

@@elijahsnow3119 If Russia is lucky they might cut off and capture the Baltic states for a short period, but I don't see Russia attacking Poland anytime soon. Ukraine is tough enough for Russia.

[@kimj2570]

@@elijahsnow3119 With Finland and Sweden in NATO the supply lines of Balts are secured. Nothing with russian flag stay afloat in Baltic Sea after 48h. That gives more room for manouvre on Suwalki area. Scandinavians bring almost 250 top tier fighter aircraft to the table from perfect striking distance, from dispersed and hardened air bases. Half of the ac will soon be stealth F-35s. And i am sure russians wont dare to leave their border against us Finns empty... Finns will fill Gulf of Finland narrows to gills with marine mines the very night after any russian even sneezes in these waters. Our Navy has trained doing it at neck of time for 100 years. Good luck getting even rubber duck out or into St Petersburg.

[@vylkoklak]

I came to the comments section specifically to write, what Haamre has written. Perfect summary. Thank you. Regarding the long range artillery systems that Poland is also purchasing, I have an extra quote (or rather a paraphrase): "The general idea is to DEFEND on the ENEMY territory" .

[@Hamzat22]

As a polish citizen i want every piece of hardware be named after famous korean starcraft terran players.

[@하루-h6b]

임요한 Im Yo Han haha

[@LukusCseh]

All the top Polish SC2 pros were either Zerg or Protoss, otherwise it would be fitting to name something after them too. But lots of Korean Terrans to choose from. Gotta do GuMiho mainly because he has been playing mech for his whole career and deserves something for that dedication.

[@Eldydhdhd]

why not Zerg players like 콩진호 why not Zerg players like 콩진호

[@Hamzat22]

@@Eldydhdhd thats why:P

[@SVSky]

Maru, Innovation, Gumiho?

[@MarcLucksch]

You are right, I don’t want a 15 Minute presentation on ways to budget defence funding, it’s gotta be at least 4 times as long. 1 hour minimum on this channel.

[@Sir_Godz]

he is so wrong about that

[@paulrobertsson8760]

We're all in. Make it an hour!

[@merlin9345]

I literally looked for someone saying this, thank you. Also, Perrun you are making a wonderful job, keep up with this budgeting video pretty please.

[@AnimeSunglasses]

Yep, seconded! We all need to hop in the patreon and remind him of that!

[@zee7056]

My Polish wife appreciates your attempt at the proper pronunciation of Warsaw.

[@czaja995]

As someone from Poland I also appreciate attempts to properly pronounce minister of defence name.

[@666Tomato666]

@@TaZeR- Yup, that would have been a much better attempt

[@peceed]

Perun doskonale mówi po polsku, z pochodzenia jest polakiem :P

[@ismail-paine-de-circ]

curwa is the only word i know in polish 💅✨

[@DeltaAssaultGaming]

Isn’t it just War Saw?

[@DerpsWithWolves]

"...I'm also not sure how many of my viewers actually want to hear me spend fifteen minutes talking about the variety of funding mechanisms or budgetary structures you can use in order to support military capital spending." And, just like Poland walking into an arms expo: "YES."

[@brianmartindale2221]

Ya, me too.

[@joshuaford4460]

Dont threaten me with a good time...

[@Jandau85]

Viewers: "You underestimate my power!"

[@VictoryOTP_]

Beat me to the punch on this joke

[@Ssscarline]

Absolutely desired.

[@meowmeowmeow1243]

It is crazy to think what the South Koreans accomplished in the past decades. If you think about how the country looked at the end of the Korean war, and what it is today, it is astonishing. It is an extreme example of what a smart, hard working group of people can accomplish.

[@Haamre]

I remember South Korea - and overall, the so called "Asian Tigers" - were looked up to & inspired the "can do it as well" approach Poland took in the 90s, after splitting with the communist block. We also had some Korean investments as well in the 90s - main poster boy being the cooperation with Daewoo, in the automotive sector, but over the time a lot more companies decided to invest - sometimes quite heavily - in Poland.

[@obser7088]

Past decades doesn't matter. Poland has chance to boost its INDUSTRY & MILITARY now. Future Poland is gonna be factories of Europe with Korea. What does it mean? Poland is next Korea.

[@JasonD-yc3oy]

@@obser7088 Actually after the winning the war Ukraine will be another South Korea (who transformed the country from ashes of the Korean war to become a first class developed country and one of the richest)... Slava Ukraini!!! Hopefully PL supply UA with some of K2s and K9s

[@obser7088]

@@JasonD-yc3oy You have freedom of joke.

[@daciefusjones8128]

@@obser7088 hope that doesn't mean they do that K-pop crap.

[@shannonkohl68]

One issue that may be a consideration for both Poland and South Korea and wasn't mentioned; both have a risk of being overrun, so it would be nice if you're in that situation to have a strong, reliable partner in another part of the world that can build more of your hardware. Just in case. Also unmentioned in the discussion of Poland's reliance on NATO for security is the fact the Poles know very well that security guarantees are not always honored. (And in some cases this may be due to the inability to honor them as opposed to unwillingness, but that is a distinction without a difference to the country being overrun.)

[@ladrok97]

Yep. Not only SK will have easier time to sell things in Europe when having factories in Poland. But also easy way for USA to support their key allies

[@tedzehnder961]

Exactly right. Perun just covered the economics of the relationship which is a large reason but I think there are some philosophical reasons as well. A decade ago the EU wasn`t on the best of terms with Poland at least what I read in the media.

[@umjackd]

@@tedzehnder961 A decade ago? Try the last few years. The current Polish government is relatively anti-EU.

[@foldionepapyrus3441]

@@umjackd I think in many ways you have that backwards - as the EU as an entity has seemed to be very anti practically all its member states for quite some time, creating a natural push back... Not saying the EU is bad, but it was definitely looking sickly and showing no signs of fixing itself, though Russia being dicks has perhaps put some more life back into. I agree with Shannon though - having the gear you know how to use being made around the world as well makes it very unlikely you run out of parts as serious fighting depleting both your and your so very distant geographically partners stocks at the same time is not likely. And with how efficient and fast shipping and airfreight can be the delay in resupply while meaningful is not that bad.

[@davidgoodnow269]

I'm expecting that once the current war in Ukraine settles out, that Poland will seek to recreate the old Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, which included most of what is currently Ukraine. Part of my thought is how much Poland is doing to supply humanitarian assistance to Ukraine, in particular by hosting refugee families. Another part is how horrible the Ukrainian government has been; if Poland is at all better in comparison, and has a strong spine to resist Russia, I think a lot of Ukrainians might soften on the whole "Nationalism" stance. Poland would gain a *lot* in such a Commonwealth, gaining Southern port access, as well as improving both countries' economies through scale in manufacturing and trade. Lithuania, likewise, plus they have a lot in common with Ukraine in their technology economy. I also see a lot of Russia's motive for invading Ukraine being (besides the obvious) that, if it can control some of the Eastern Ukraine coast, it can exploit offshore natural gas production that Ukraine was set to exploit with contracts with Shell before the invasion. That would offset the extraordinary expense of piping gas from Siberia to Europe! What do all of you think? Am I wildly off?

[@pioni2]

It's easy to understand what Poland is doing when you note how nice of a neighbour Russia has been to everyone for 1000 years.

[@PaszekoYT]

1000 years ago there was no Russia

[@OrdoStorm]

​@@PaszekoYT Yeap, and not all Russia history is that bad. Russia changed and copied Mongol authoritarian and expansionist culture after brutal occupation. Just adapted to the region, but just dont know when to stop.

[@JaneCobbsHat]

@@PaszekoYT Exactly that. Russia was put on the map by Mongol Empire in mid 13th century when a local Muskovy warlord was nominated a tax collector for the Khan. The last time russia paid tributes to Mongol Khan was in 1699 under the reign of Peter the Great. Yes, for more than a half of russian history, russia was a Mongol fiefdom. ... and it shows.

[@ronblack7870]

some people thought that russia may be becoming a modern nation. nope they have turned more to barbarity for the last 5 years. the 20 years of relative prosperity there was unusual. now back to repression.

[@JaneCobbsHat]

@@ronblack7870 Pootin wanted the be the next Peter the Great who dragged russia into 18th century, so Pootin too is dragging russia into 18th century.

[@mmeade9402]

There is one thing that wasnt discussed. From the South Korean side of things, its very advantageous for them to export the ability to ~PRODUCE~ SK military equipment. The Koreans are actually in a neighborhood where they may have to use there military. If things ever go hot on the Korean peninsula, those tank factories are going to be high on the list of targets for the North... If you've got a friendly country that is producing "nearly" the same thing on another continent, that means a potential supply of spares or maybe even whole new units when needed. Whereas the Germans and the Americans are quite a ways away from any potential adversaries, to them technology transfer and industrial production sharing isnt as important. Distance provides room for them to try to protect there own production facilities...

[@TheIndianaGeoff]

The Russian's could be in Warsaw and Germany would still be debating if it should send MRE's to Poland. By the time Germany decided to flood Poland with tanks the Russians would be in France.

[@twinsiesyt]

I think you made a very important aspect. We don't want to rely on the US and its domestic politics. We need reliable supply source in the case of conflict on Korean peninsula. Poland could supply replacement parts and equipment that South Korea may not be able to maintain as our factories are too close to the front line and could be easily compromised by missile attacks.

[@jeffbenton6183]

That's a good point. I hope more people see this.

[@simoc24]

👀 wow what a great point. I did NOT think of that 👍👆

[@m2heavyindustries378]

@@TheIndianaGeoff The russians can't seem to fight their way out of a wet paper bag these past 8 months, let alone a whole Poland

[@powerupyo]

South Korean and Polish partnership doesn't end with military, there are current ongoing talks about other industries, including nuclear reactors and Poland's new airport (Incheon international airport, South Korea's major airport has been a top ranking airport for several years) It's an open secret that Western Europe looks down upon Eastern Europe, especially Germany to Poland, so it should not be too surprising when Poland looks overseas to a country that respects them.

[@strategystuff5080]

I doubt anyone with a Braincell looks down on Poland, The main point of friction I think, is the fact that Poland joined the EU later, and has in recent times ,been anti -liberalization, with Conservative parties, that are very akin to hate groups. Hatered Jusfitied by relgious dogma, is always bad. see; Nazi Germany, Russia, All Arab states, Iran, ect ,ect ,ect

[@la.x-neverthedodgers]

"Open secret", well if you're taking Lavrov's/Putin's anti Anglo Saxon & Anglo Saxonism as being the root of the western [namely Germany, UK & US] expansionism/imperialism seriously then yes, and for you to take those remarks without further discernment/ explanation is not good for the alliance.

[@Czif]

we bought korean nuclear reactors, contract was signed

[@rlbk3649]

@@la.x-neverthedodgers he is right. Poland was trying to purchase from Germany weapon before and the german approach was like they would not want to sell it. War in Ukraine exposed level of corruption in german political ranks but also true german intentions in Europe. Nord stream 1 and 2 weren't just business projects. They are political ones. Even now when everyone can clearly see what Russia is doing in Ukraine, Berlin still does not want to send their weapon to help Ukraine. More over, it stops others to send help (Spain was forced to stop shipping their Leopards to Ukraine because german manufacturer didn't agree on it). And recently german prime minister Schultz announced that Germany will be seeking to come back to business as usual with Russia. Another historical massive f..k up on behalf of Germany. I do not believe for one second that Germany would fulfill its NATO obligations. They have different ideas all together.

[@tumlili7129]

Germans respect their neighbours, when they democratic

[@camustein5233]

Thank you for an awesome video :) - as a South Korean I would like to provide some perspectives about those weapon systems and parallel between South Korea and Poland(which I found interesting)! 1. Doctrine of South Korea is heavily focused on firepower. Korea has the second largest SPG fleet (approx. 3000) in the world. This is due to the experience from the Korean War. Often RoK army had to defend massive coordinated assaults of NK army and PLA. Whilst american Army could rely on air supports(on top of their artillery capability), RoK army didn't have luxury of rich air support. Therefore there are a number of crucial battles where the amount of firepower determined the result. Also, hilly nature of Korean favours indirect fire. 2. In recent days, RoK army/airforce/navy is focusing on firepower even heavier. We are acquiring new fleets of ballistic missiles, ALCM, and even korean version of arsenal ship to launch ballistic missile. The reason for it is rather strategical. Since RoK is so much capable than its foe, NK, the task of RoK military is not to win the war but to win the war without losing too much. We are confident that in the case of war, we can definitely erase NK out of the map but it would likely to damage RoK economy significantly, since Seoul, where most of Korean economic capability is concentrated, is only 100km away from the frontline. NK often boast that they can "put Seoul into firestorm" with their massive fleet unguided rocket/howitzers aiming towards Seoul. Therefore we are OBSESSED with how fast we can strike NK before they even start firing the ammunitions. Poland shares the fate of relatively short strategic depth since it borders Russia and Belarus directly. 3. RoK weapons have DNA of Eastern weaponries interestingly. Throughout 1990s and 2000s, Russia payed some of its loan back with their weapon systems such as T-80U, BMP-3, Hovercrafts, Ka-32, Metis-M, Igla. They are studied by Korean engineers and many of Korean weapon system inherits some features from them. For an example, radiation shielding liner of K2 is based on that of T-80U. We have Hypersonic ASBM and BRBM heavily influenced by Russian technologies. I suspect that Poland might have found attractive that RoK has rich experience of integrating soviet technologies into western systems and perhaps hoping for learning some know hows from technological cooperations.

[@sanc9808]

Thank you for this insight!

[@freebird7208]

You are compleatly wrong on 1 thing "Poland shares the fate of relatively short strategic depth since it borders Russia and Belarus directly." Poland is almost 3.1 times larger than south korea. you could fit entire S.Korea into Belarus, Russia to Warsaw, Cracow (2 largest cities) rectangle, this is also agricultural part of Poland, sparsely populated. The most importand parts of the Polish heavy industry are located along the line from south west up to the end to odra river, whitch are also the ones furthest away from Russia (like 500-600km from kalliningrad and belaruss). 1. YES. Pole = Field in polish. MInsk to warsaw is nothing but agricultural fields. Manuver>firepower 3. I dont think it matters to anyone in Poland. I think what mattered the most was Leopard 2pl disaster, and Korean having opinion (in Poland) of being great bisnes partners.

[@camustein5233]

@@freebird7208 Yeah I agree that the battlefield environment is quite different in Poland and Korea. Sorry if it sounds as if I implied that the polish military should or would have exactly the same doctrine. Poland definitely has much more operational depth than RoK in that aspect. However, their operational depth is much shorter than countries like UK, Germany, Japan or France. Compared to them, Poland and RoK would be on the similar side of the spectrum, though Korea would be on more extreme end. I am not sure about what Maneuverability>Firepower is supposed to mean here. In defensive war, maneuverability is not as handy as it would be in an offensive operation. For 3. I agree, that it cannot be a major factor. It is just a very speculative remark.

[@freebird7208]

@@camustein5233 maneuverablity>firepower, In experts debate (Bartosiak, Wojczal) there is strong sense of doing "active defense", whitch means destroying enemy with your tanks, mechenized troops, on his own side, even in defensive war.

[@piotrd.4850]

Interesting. Though you guys really should distribute Seul accross the country a bit even for non-military reasons.

[@GoodieMartin]

Interesting to see someone outside of Poland talking about the recent Polish army shopping spree :D I would just like to add one pretty big reason as to why our government went full in with Korea, as you mentioned the KRAB chassis is basically K9 chassis but what was really appreciated by our industry was the Korean openness for modifying the chassis on many levels to our needs. Korea basically gave us a free hand to do whatever we wanted and pretty much everything was manufactured in Poland via license or cooperation. Meanwhile on the other hand you got leopard modernization to Leopard 2PL standard which had a lot of drama and been dragging on for many years now. Rheinmetall is very strict on any modifications or allowing to use parts made in Poland. One of the main reasons Leopard 2PL is being produced in such a slow speed is because Rheinmetall didn't allow our industry to manufacture or modify many Leopards parts forcing us to wait on the long queue of them manufacturing them in their plants in Germany or whereever they got their fabs and massive bureaucracy going along with intellectual rights and so on. Personally I think this experience alone of very strict and not willing to cooperate German Rheinmetall vs very open and cooperative Korean arms industry was the main factor behind us going all in with Korea.

[@mrd7067]

To my understanding poland does still do things against the few germans living there (there are videos on this) Then the staff at Majdanek for example says something different than the USholocaustmuseum and other places- If you were to say the exact same things in germany as the USholocaustmuseum and other jewish voices you`d risk legal trouble and jail in germany for. And then there are also things like this polish book: "Ku wrzesniowi 1939. Zbrojne ramie sanacji" Old newspaper artices like the following: California Digital newspaper collection Madera Tribune, Volume LXXIV, Number 98, 24 August 1939 POLE GUNS FIRE ON DANZIG PLANE German Planes Detour to Avoid Attack DANZIG, Aug. 24. -Early morning bathers reported today that Polish guns fired 10 shots at a Danzig sports airplane and that shell fragments fell in the streets of Zoppot, in free city territory. The German Lufthansa company abandoned direct airplane service, across the Pomorze area of Poland, separating Germany proper from East Prussia and Danzig. Planes were detourned over the Baltic as the result of today’s and yesterday’s alleged Polish firing on German planes. Why are the statements of polish dilomats and politicans from the 1939 timeframe and before getting ignored? Why had the polish marshal Rydz-Smigly a oil painting of himself in triumph march under the Brandenburger Tor in summer 1939? The by now declassified diplomatic exchange also is quite interesting (e.g. DOCUMENT 161 Beck to Lipski in the polish white book no. 110, p.119 and the english blue book no. 102, p. 102). Also interesting are the books: In Allied London by Count Edward Raczynski Hell's Mouth: Confessions of Count Nepomuk As well as statements and deeds made by Pilsudski and Edward Rydz-Smigly And more. What happened in poland after ww1, ww2 and between? Why did the nuremberg trials and other trials follow the following rules: International military tribunal charter Article 19. The Tribunal shall not be bound by technical rules of evidence. It shall adopt and apply to the greatest possible extent expeditious and nontechnical procedure, and shall admit any evidence which it deems to be of probative value. Article 20. The Tribunal may require to be informed of the nature of any evidence before it is entered so that it may rule upon the relevance thereof. Article 21. The Tribunal shall not require proof of facts of common knowledge but shall take judicial notice thereof. It shall also take judicial notice of official governmental documents and reports of the United Nations, including the acts and documents of the committees set up in the various allied countries for the investigation of war crimes, and of records and findings of military or other Tribunals of any of the United Nations. To my understanding german guilt for Katyn has been established there. How does/did ths case differ from anything else there? It`s even nudged on in the in things before: The Moscow Conference; October 1943 STATEMENT ON ATROCITIES (at the end) "... Thus, Germans who take part in wholesale shooting of Polish officers ..." Which other "wholesale ...." could have been meant here than Katyn". Especially considering the sowjet track reckord with executing polish leadership and the forced enlistment of more than 100k poles in the red army after Operation Barbarossa started? Why was and still is international law (e.g. the Hague convention or the UN genocide convention) getting ignored in the case of germany?

[@DPRK_Best_Korea]

@@mrd7067 what does this have to do with Rheinmetall slowing Polish procurement and modernization of Leopard tanks?

[@mrd7067]

@@DPRK_Best_Korea Everything. It`s the basis for the post ww2 order and ongoing real world impact, especially because things don`t get cleared up.

[@mrd7067]

@@kruggmichaels8958 I`m always interested in primary sources. Best from archives of the winning side that can be viewed online.

[@peceed]

Not Rheinmetall, but KMW. Rheinmetall is much nicier company.

[@g-3409]

Polish officers have visited Rena in Norway multiple times, and have read the reports. So they know exactly how the tests went.

[@LeutnantJoker]

It makes sense, Why test a vehicle if a NATO partner, that you're already working and training with, is already doing it. What's the point? If they say it's a NATO compatible vehicle capable of fighting in Europe, then that's good enough. Any differences in terrain capabilities are probably negligible anyway, and can be read about in the reports.

[@1821-p6m]

@@LeutnantJoker The tanks are planned to be customized to adapt it specifically to Polish needs anyways, so I'm sure differences in terrain will be accounted for then

[@notyetidentified9720]

@@LeutnantJoker Not exactly, the terrain dictates the philosophy of design. The biggest differene between korean and european tanks is the angle at which crew is protected from frontal attacks - because of mountains korean tanks are designed with the idea of engagements in situations where the angle can be much more narrow, opposit to what Poland could face on open plains. It basically means sides of the K2 are less protected. To mitigate that they would've to redesign turret and hull. It is not a simple modification. Then you have to consider the implications - the frontal cone at which a tank can receive incoming fire is pretty much written into the doctrine and tactics of how the tanks are used.

[@DJRYGAR1]

@@notyetidentified9720 i do not think it matters, look how many modern munitions attack from above (karl gustav or javelin for example). Only good protection is active (destroying incoming stuff).

[@jjl1790]

@@DJRYGAR1 It's APS, Active Protection System such as 'Trophy', the Israeli company makes. It has adopted by K2.

[@cochacopen]

Go Poland GO! As an American I'm all for this partnership.

[@Prussia_is_not_yet_lost.]

Poland has to be demilitarised and stay neutral forever. If they buy these 1000 K2 they will be a threat for Russia and you now they are the next target. Neutrality is the solution.

[@diabelgrogaty1963]

@@Prussia_is_not_yet_lost. NO! How did you find out about our secret plan to conquer all of Europe...now there is no time to prepare...the whole operation must begin now!

[@Prussia_is_not_yet_lost.]

@@diabelgrogaty1963 The germans thought the slavs like Polish, Hungarians and other would come to terms as well with their "losses" of territory (the poles did not lose anything but the Hungarians are the biggest loser of territory from WW2 next to the germans and austrians) but they seem to indulge in revenge plans and thoughts continuously. Crown of Saint Steven, etc. That was nothing new from the poles in Prussia where the germans allways tried to appease the poles and after each appeasement they demanded more and more. At the end the austrians where just happy to get rid of the polish problem in Galizien und Lodomerien and the germans in Prussia since they realised there would never be peace with the warmongering poles specially. That problem not bites Putin in his ass and he does not really know neighter how to solve that similar to the germans in Prussia. The unrestfullness of the slavs, specially the poles, ucranians, Czechs and others cause this war in Ucraine where Russia is now in the position the Germans allways where historically. The thing is this: if the poles and others have demands or reivindication then the Germans can show up again as well with their rightfull claims. The germans claim would be 50% of todays Poland territory as Prussia (Germany), South Tirol (Austria) and Elsaß-Lothringen (Germany). Thats it. If one makes claimes, then all show up on the table again specially Germany and Austria. Poland could be very soon in the similar position like the Wehrmacht was in WW2: no or few fuel for the tanks, no natural ressources for spare parts, no natural ressources for new tank fleets, then only horse driven artillery. Poland/Prussia is traditionally an pasture country for horses. So you better ride on horses against the russians if you want eagerly war. This is the original map of polish settlements and this big Poland should be in reality only. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mieszko_I#/media/File:Grody_w_okresie_Mieszka_I.png About 50% of the territory between the rivers Oder and Weichsel are in reality Poland - nothing more. All other territories are invasion and conquests by force. If Poland would be between the rivers Oder and Weichsel it would have already way more land as it ever had originally without invading the germans, ucranians, Bielorus and russians. The polish army is very soon an grandpa army since the birth rate is only 1.35 children per women and the median age of the pole is 41 years old. You will not have soldiers not people in the future due to aging population and your soldiers will be old people only. 1000 K2 tanks need to be paid off and for that they need to be used - so Poland is now a threat to Russia. Best is to declare neutrality, disarm Poland and leave NATO, give back Prussia and we are all friends again. Prussia is not yet lost!

[@douglashiggins9379]

Same here

[@rrrsaw1414]

TY

[@jakeaurod]

There's one other possible advantage that you didn't mention. If large numbers of Korean Tanks and production of them is outside of South Korea, then it provides a deeper reserve of possible resupply to the Korean forces in case of war with North Korea and/or China. This is one of the lessons from the Russo-Ukrainian War, that having lots of countries using lots of compatible hardware can sell or donate it back in case of war.

[@mephisto8101]

That part of the war in Ukraine was a major eye-opener. Sustainability in the face of a neer peer engagement and how badly some countries are at it nowadays. As a german, I am particularily dissapointed in aspects of the Bundeswehr, were ammo stockpiles are said to last for about TWO days of high intensive fighting, as opposed to the 30 day requirement of NATO. There are not really much stockpiles for artillery or other major weapons systems. And as we have seen, the time for production of high tech equipment is too long due to complicated supply chains. You're not getting far in a landwar with only 100 artillery pieces and 266 MBTs. Also, due to the dissolution of conscription, the abilities to upscale manpower are really limited.

[@jesusschizus272]

Very good point!

[@brandondavis7777]

@@mephisto8101 The US has been telling Germany to up it's game(increase military production and budget) even before Trump said it outloud for the world to hear. You need a domestic market besides the government, this lessons the burden on supply, increases surplus, and the less strict laws would allow us the US to get some better german rifles instead of those weird exports y'all currently send out(Which is just straight money for your economy)

[@mephisto8101]

@@brandondavis7777 You're partially right. After the cold war, Germany had the burden of integrating the former GDR (ex-DDR, as we call it). There was a big incentive on scaling down the massive military expenditure from being a cold-war front state, especially when the money was needed desperadly on other tasks. And because Germany was now surrounded by friendly states, politicians felt they could get away with reduced military spending. After all, the USSR just disbanded and we didn't expect threats from Poland, France, Austria or Switzerland. (Denmark is sus, though, gotta keep an eye out for them...) As opposed to Britain or France, Germany did not develop a geo strategy. To be fair, after two world wars, the world was not so eager for Germany to have this kind of ambitions. Until recently, which is still kind of weird as a german. Oh, and German arms trade is on place five of the world by country. The issue is not with markets or technology, because we have both in repectable quantities in comparison to the size of the country. The issue is with "kaputtsparen", reduced spending until systems become inoperable. Ammo is a good case. Helicopter flight hours another. Spare parts for submarines. Hell, spare parts for practically anything.

[@brandondavis7777]

@@mephisto8101 The point of introducing a civilian market, isn't the market or lack of them, it's the increased and consistent supply. Partially why you'll never see guns restricted in the US like you would Europe, it's a human right and it allows us quick access to anything from Ammo, to parts(and variety of arms, too.) Reduced spending isn't a bad thing, but y'all should've been meeting the 2% budget criteria for years now. Germany doesn't need a million man military like the US or China, but it does need more than what it has now, and the supplies to meet their demands.

[@vladh5192]

T72 heading for retirement... that's a really active retirement home it picked :D

[@supreme3376]

More likely to Ukraine

[@KN-xl6lw]

@@supreme3376 Whoosh 😸

[@kubagra456]

@@supreme3376 You don't say...

[@JM-mh1pp]

it is called active rest, fundamental for keeping your mental faculties in the old age. Besides, why go to scrapyard when you can go to VALHALLA!

[@joefreeman9733]

A lot of T72s have retired in Ukraine. Their retirement hS been spectacular to watch as they shed extraneous assets such as hatches guns and even entire turrets once they reach their predestined meeting with a Javelin other anti tank missile.

[@Divus90]

Something that might be added for context: South Korea already have business investments ongoing in Poland - LG Factories and Samsung. So, there's already a proof that cooperation between those two countries might work. Samsung has R&D office in Warsaw (previously also in Poznań), so it's not only low level factories as one would assume.

[@ronblack7870]

yes in SK samsung is 20% of the economy and the other big guys are also a large part . so not a small thing.

[@kmch7286]

Do you know about Daewoo automobile industry?

[@whiteelan7]

One of the projects we will do with Poland is the car battery business. 40% of the price of an electric vehicle is the price of the battery. Germany and the United States are also using South Korean batteries. So Samsung, LG and SK will invest in Poland to supply batteries for electric vehicles to Germany.

[@quadro1337]

Poland has a lot of STEM talent pool including a lot of women in the industry which enlarge mentioned pool by a lot.

[@411ed]

As Polish American who trained in Tae Kwon Do under Master Kwon Sung Choi (and developed a deep respect and admiration for Korean culture), this is a win-win-win for me. Both Korea and Poland are countries that have suffered invasions and betrayals by other countries, including "allies." They have learned that being self-sufficient is the key to survival, making them natural partners.

[@schrecksekunde2118]

fascinating... love& greetings from Vienna

[@kevinkim1418]

Yes. Self reliance.

[@gregghuge3270]

Let's be fair poland was gearing up as well to invade most of its weaker neighbors around ww2. It had its eyes on and or had recently fought border clashes or small scale wars with the Baltics and Russia etc. Poland was also subjugating ethnic Germans, Belarusians , Ukrainians and Lithuanians in Poland. Poland was up to a lot of not great things in the interwar period. Polish people have this "omg no one helped us in ww2 woe is me" stuff but you guys govt was not exactly a wonderful one and was seen as a giant liability to arm or truly support.

[@swj719]

I think it is adorable that Perun doesn't think we'd listen to 15 minutes of military budget wonkery.

[@SirAntoniousBlock]

We're shameless.

[@unconventionalideas5683]

I think so, too.

[@KirillTheBeast]

hmmm... not gonna kink-shame or anything, since I just ate the whole video like it was a light midnight snack, BUT... we're DEFINITELY going to hell for this, period. Even Perun himself has to be a bit weirded out by his own audience at this point and we sorta can't blame him for that...

[@terrestrialextra4790]

Word.

[@handlemonium]

Eeeeh it could be done in a 3 minute short. But I wouldn't mind an exhaustive 15-20 explainer either.

[@dsw1664]

24:00 You're right... i would be annoyed to spend 15 minutes talking about that. I'd expect at least 90 minutes from yourself. Keep up the absolutely amazing work.

[@jaechoi1344]

Hi perun a fellow South Korean here! I love your videos so much that it pains me to provide a criticism. I loved your old format of just going at it. With your umms and uhhs that might sound unprofessional but for us sounded so much connective and conversational. I miss those formats. You don't have to edit those out! They make you more human, more fun like your gameplays and casual discourse! Please! Feel free to be yourself because we are human. We are people aren't we? Thank you so much!

[@PerunAU]

Cheers mate - very much appreciate the comment.

[@treeinafield5022]

Speak for yourself, I despise umms and uhhs. I'd rather hear someone speak like a robot than hear umms and uhhs.

[@jaechoi1344]

@Perun holy shit on a popscikle you replied!! Thank you. Please feel free to ignore me and be yourself. As always I cannot express the gratitude of you in these hard times. Thank you!

[@elektrotehnik94]

I don’t think Perun could make me cringe from “too many uhm’s” even if he tried 👍❤️ Best Orange & Black powerpoints on KZbin, by far 🌺

[@asdefull]

goodluck talking with any humans on this planet that didnt have a teleprompter or a note in their hands

[@benjaminmatheny6683]

As an American, good for Poland. I don't want to see NATO end up like the CSTO. The better Poland can defend her boarders the better position the rest of the NATO will be in when they respond to an article 5.

[@kacperq1987]

Also, Poland had a problems in cooperation with Germany over Leo2PL and whole Leo2 fleet - there were huge delays, which was somehow connected with fact that the only working assembly plant of Leo2 is in Greece, not in Germany (which has also a huge problems with they own military stocks and facilities)

[@ladrok97]

Also there was huge problem with aproach to modernisation. Germans saw it as "ok we don't produce this to L2A4, so let's change parts for newer, but overall it will have the same specs" while Poland went "ok we are waisting money, so we should upgrade it at the same time, right... right?"

[@EK-gr9gd]

KMW made an offer to Poland but Poland rejected it. Several weeks ago Poland demanded brandnew LEO2A7V, as a compensation for some stored T-72, they send to UA. Germany: Get lost. To put it mildly.

[@ladrok97]

@@EK-gr9gd "KMW made an offer to Poland but Poland rejected it." What offer? "Several weeks ago Poland demanded brandnew LEO2A7V, as a compensation for some stored T-72, they send to UA" And your proof for it being true? It was stated by some German newspaper. Later Polish goverment denied it and said that +/- 40 L2A4 would be enough and perfect would be 58 L2A4. I didin't saw German goverment (or this newspaper) denying those words of Polish authorities

[@loozpl]

@@EK-gr9gd Bullshit.

[@EK-gr9gd]

@@ladrok97 2015 Poland terminated the contract with KMW. wikipedia: Leopard2A4PL, with sources. Spiegel: 21.05.2022 "Leider ist nichts umgesetzt worden" The normale way of getting Leo2A7 is modifiying existing systems, to the new standard, except you order them from the factory, like Hungary did. If Poland wants Leo2A7 they need to place an order with KMW. Germany is not going to gift them for free to Poland.

[@miroslawturski]

Fantastic analysis, as usual 🙂 Two aspects to add to that. 1. There is already great cooperation between Poland and Korea. I live in western Poland and my next door neighbour is Korean working for one of many Korean factories in the area. Expanding business even further seems like a win-win scenario for both sides. 2. Given how many kit we donated to Ukraine, Polish army really need new suff NOW. It seems like Korea CAN deliver.

[@tedzehnder961]

I think how the EU Parliament was treating Poland when it came down to illegal immigration and other social and political views, I`d feel a little nervous about betting on a bunch of liberals coming to my defense. Koreans are sort of a conservative bunch so I can see how you all can get along. The way that the EU was falling in love with Russian energy and propping up Putin would make me weigh my options too.Do a lot of Europeans value Eastern Europe over cheap oil?I hope so.

[@umjackd]

I live in Wroclaw and there are so many Korean companies operating here. It seems like Korean companies figured out Poland is a great entry point to the European market with highly educated but still affordable labour due to PPP, and this is just a further development in their economic relationship.

[@HanSolo__]

If you own a tv made by LG, and you live in the EU it is very likely it has "Made in Poland" written on the back.

[@jeckjeck3119]

@@tedzehnder961 Yet US led by a liberal(?) president came to Ukraine's defense.

[@666Tomato666]

@@tedzehnder961 The EU Parliment doesn't have a problem with the Poles handling of illegal immigration, it has problems with Poland's handling of refugees and general rule law. Something that actually majority of Poles agree with (current government doesn't have even 40% approval rating, and pretty sue the response to Putin's war carries most of it). But because of our insane voting system, the parliament majority party actually represents minority of voters (45%).

[@robertslomka6658]

Excellent analysis. There is however one more very important aspect: politicial leverage. South Korea is the best partner for Poland that is politically independent (or least dependent). While nominally US and Germany are allies of Poland having Poland dependent on delivery of US or even more so German armaments makes it much more politically dependent on US/Germany. Just see how Germany built NS1&NS2 against Polish wishes. Germany could push through various EU project in it's own interest having this leverage over Poland. Of course, there would be no explicit threats but the implications are obvious. South Korea being far away and having not totally different threat of N.Korea and even China/Russia near it's borders not only has no conflicting interests (or not as many) but also has emotional and intellectual understanding of Polish strategic and political situation. The two countries are natural partners.

[@martenkahr3365]

A few years back, the Estonian armed forced made the decision to purchase a small fleet of K9 Thunders from Korea, and apparently one of the deciding factors was the ease of use and ergonomics factors that made the platform more suitable for a conscription-based reserve army, compared to similar German PzH200 or US M119 designs in contention for the purchase.

[@supreme3376]

Well Estonian 10 K9 come with 24 k9 and 10 k2 Polish

[@WilliamNeacy]

This video and the video he did way back in the spring are excellent. Both massively increased my understanding and convinced me of the importance of Poland. Everyone should also be aware of the humanitarian efforts they've made for the Ukrainian people. An example for all of us.

[@andyl8055]

Vital for so many reasons. They surround Kaliningrad, they’re the bridge to the Baltic states through the gap, they’re willing to fight, and they fight like Ukrainians. You don’t hear them crying about energy bills when Russia is raining death on Ukrainians; they just send them artillery, tanks and ammunition. If only all our allies were so wonderful, unlike so-called allies that are essentially fifth column like Hungary.

[@shahzaib4011]

Glad to see them stepping up after they had floundered during the refugee crisis. Hope Ukrainians are able to get to safety, wherever they are.

[@TheIndianaGeoff]

@@andyl8055 And I am sure that Poland would much rather have South Korea as an ally than depend on Germany to be there if the shit goes bad. Plus if Korea goes bad, SK could do worse than having Poland in it's orbit.

[@cynthiaarnold1371]

@@andyl8055 if I were queen of all the land, I would have one loss for Russia for attacking and terrorizing Ukraine, be to lose Kaliningrad. It could become part of Poland or could be a EU special peace and restitution institute. (Empire builders are losers, country developers are winners). Or maybe a high tech area and all proceeds go to Ukraine for several years. How do be get them to give it up? Do like the Ukrainians and cut off all avenues for supplies and cut off electricity, gas, cell phone use and water. Then sit until they ummm…..leave.

[@jjcoola998]

@@andyl8055 based

[@El__Leche]

The Korean model is very true when you see how they expanded their car market in Brazil. Hyundai went from "that one random korean car maker " to one of the biggest car producers in the country.

[@cenccenc946]

I was in Peru a couple years ago. at a major intersection, while waiting for the light, I realized every single vehicle was a Hyundai, other than the lexus taxi I was in. like several hundred vehicles at one intersection.

[@CLASHROYALE-mn5wj]

Same in India

[@gregghuge3270]

@@thornelderfin LMAO no you don't. America makes 10x as many cars, not including the proxies factories set up in mexico.

[@redshirt5126]

"For all of their technological advantages, the Americans have not yet mastered teleportation." As an American I can confirm that this is not yet possible for us however we are working on rectifying this issue.

[@fuzzyhair321]

Yeah they thought about rail cannons but quickly moved to freakin laser beams. Like how quickly and quietly that went from testing to on destroyers

[@olgagaming5544]

I wish we didn't have need for armies and every people would livep eacufully together

[@MW-fo5lh]

Lol

[@theoheinrich529]

@@olgagaming5544 one can dream, one can dream

[@straydogswagger4280]

You know we'd just use it to got to the fridge and work if it were made public. And for Tindr

[@kaiser6100]

I'm a Korean interested in world history. Very exciting to think these weapons would be part of the returned winged hussars.

[@supreme3376]

In same way Yes

[@スガル]

​​​@@supreme3376 F-35PL "Hussar" Honorable mention being South Korean F-15K "Slam Eagle"

[@Eternalamon]

This is very interesting comment, and to make things even more interesting I'll tell you that some of the S.Korean produced K2 tanks in polish Panzer-divisions already bear a "winged husar" crest/coat of arms on their armor. Greetings from PL

[@ScienceChap]

I served with the Poles 20 years ago in NATO exercises, not long after they'd joined the club. I was really struck by their determination to learn NATO standards and practices. I was amazed by their hatred for the Russians. That was 20 years ago. They are likely to be far better now even than they were then. I'd imagine their anti-Russian feeling is stronger now.

[@maciejkukla9615]

Not stronger. Still on 100%.

[@tremedar]

@@maciejkukla9615 There's always pushing it above 100% "I not only hate *you* I hate everyone who *associates* with you."

[@ironwolfF1]

The Poles still maintain the memorials and graveyards of their dead caused by the 1920 invasion by the Bolsheviks. Given Poland's _long_ history of abuse at the hands of outsiders, not to mention past glories (stretching back 400+ years), insuring it's national defense is _not_ a passing fancy.

[@alouisschafer7212]

god Finland, the Baltics, the Poles and Ukraine just absolutely fucking hate Russia

[@michaziomek]

Not to mention the murdered 30.000 soldiers and officers at Katyń, 123years of occupation, trying to remove our nationality from existence, making us a slave country in the warsaw pact era. Taking all of our nuclear material, stationing thousands of troops in our territory for decades. Did i miss anything?

[@iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii2458]

Engineer here. I worked with South Korean engineers before. They certainly have the capability to bring their military to the next level, but the treaty they signed with the U.S. restricts what they can do. If there is a sleeping tiger in the Asian military technology community, South Korea would be it.

[@edwardkim8972]

Sleeping? Think they are awake... LoL!

[@Haamre]

Wouldn't Japan - if they really focus on it - be able to catch up though, thanks to its strong automotive & heavy manufacturing industry...?

[@edwardkim8972]

@@Haamre yeah, they could but that peace constitution tho.

[@주꾸미-v4g]

The missile agreement between South Korea and the United States ended completely on May 22, 2021. Currently, South Korea can develop missiles without restrictions on range and warhead weight.

[@iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii2458]

@@주꾸미-v4g On paper, yes, but not in practice. America will continue to get involved in South Korea's R and D, as they did during the KF-21 development.

[@PeterVonDanczk]

There were some substantial Korean investments in Poland in the past. Daewoo used to run car manufacturing in Poland. LG has a big battery factory, and Samsung even has one of its research centres in Warsaw. Recently there have been talks about Koreans chipping into the construction of a nuclear power plant in Poland. So this will be yeat onother significant investments in Poland.

[@vzeq24]

Daewoo also had a factory in Romania but was totally unable to compete with the domestic Dacia. And I'm not even talking about the new Dacia, I'm talking about the old one (the $3000 one). When Romanians build a (car) model they first establish the price target and then move forward with the design and manufacturing process. The Daewoo ( selling at $5000 ) was not able to beat (the old) Dacia at $3000. Then when the new Dacia came around ( at 5000 Euro) was much better than Daewoo. Daewoo sold the factory to Ford. They are not highly successful either. It's hard to beat a manufacturer such as Dacia where cost-effectiveness is pretty much a religion.

[@death_parade]

@@vzeq24 Daewoo was a Chaebol that took some risky decisions in 1997 Asian financial crisis. Samsung and LG survived by austerity. Daewoo tried a gamble by taking on more loans. Never really recovered from it. One of our Indian conglomerates took a piece of the pie by buying their heavy commercial vehicles segment. Another South Korean motor company SsanygYong Motors also got affected by first the 1997 crisis and then the 2008 crisis. They first got sold to the Chinese and then to another Indian conglomerate. It was then that they registered their first net profit in 2015 after almost a decade of losses. But then they couldn't sustain so the Indian conglomerate sold it after absorbing the tech from it. This year its back to another Korean Chaebol that plans to drop the name SsangYong itself and rejig the company for EV market. I suspect South Korea's declining population and an anti-immigrant work culture could cause similar issues for many other Chaebols few years/decades later.

[@jarosawmasowski3170]

1. Tech transfer. 2. Quick delivery to replace soviet tank. 3. Poland will be able to repair tank for other k2 users in Europe. 4. Germany is not trusted and deliveries of parts take ages

[@eddapultstab2078]

Also a good portion of the money basically stays in Poland instead of boosting another country if they can produce their own versions. Also Germany seems to have Swiss produced weapons and munitions which makes things difficult if not tense if another country is being attacked and needs weapons now.

[@dougcarmichael8782]

You also need to look at the fact of interchangeability of general everyday parts (road wheels, track, some electronic etc. etc.) between the Abrams and K1, K2. I had the opportunity to climb around on the K1 in the late 1990s (I'm a US Army armor branched officer and was posted as a liaison officer with the ROK army .) Up close you see the compatibility/comparability of the 2 families of vehicle. (Approx 70% interchangeability of parts.)

[@ladrok97]

Ach yes. Chieftan forgot to metion that most of Korean technology (i.e. K1 and FA-50) was developed thanks to tight cooperation South Koreans with USA

[@chaosXP3RT]

Very interesting point!

[@jong-wonlee4554]

If thats trues, that'd be an amazing advantage for Poland. Having a domestic source of M1 spare parts...

[@dabda8510]

South Korean rifle K2 is designed to take M4/M16 magazines. Deliberate design choice.

[@hishot1078]

Vanilla K1 has a lot of similarity with M1 Abrams.

[@michaelimbesi2314]

Perun, being halfway around the world isn’t bad for cost competitiveness. Shipping is unbelievably cheap, especially compared to the cost of a modern MBT. I design ships for a living. Believe me, my industry wouldn’t exist if it wasn’t often cheaper to build things far away from where they’re needed and then move them. You could build a bunch of MBTs in Korea, drive them onto a ship in Busan, and sail them to Gdańsk, and the added cost would be barely more than a rounding error on the cost of each MBT.

[@dproulx222]

I live in Busan.... Wish I had an engineering degree to work for one of the large ship builders in Ulsan or Gojae or a weapons manufacturer in Changwon.

[@piotrd.4850]

Well, but it takes time and in order to sail profitably, huge ships must be full. One full ship could probably take third of whole Polish order, took month to sail .... and be prone to be lost with single torpedo.

[@BoraHorzaGobuchul]

@@piotrd.4850 I'd assume shipping tanks from the US is pretty much comparable in terms of time and risks.

[@rashkavar]

@@piotrd.4850 Yeah, but in peacetime, you don't confiscate the whole freighter and fill it up with military hardware. Korea's selling boatloads of stuff overseas as it is, you just load up 20 containers worth of stuff on every boat to Europe and it arrives piecemeal. No one ship is a stupidly high value target. Also....if that did happen, I feel like Poland would have a decent cause for invoking Article 5 on whoever decided to torpedo a third of the new Polish military hardware.

[@jintsuubest9331]

@@rashkavar If someone decided it is worthed to torpedo a shipment of military hardware, I think we are approaching a ww3 situation, if not already in one.

[@OTOss8]

03:50 .. here we go! Totally reasonable hour to be learning about military modernisation. This is my favourite weekly video.

[@gingernutpreacher]

It's 12:00 in uk

[@ravenlordgoat2157]

Aye, it's 6:48 here

[@Author_Paluthor]

Only 19:54 here in Indonesia so actually reasonable.

[@JakubKas]

13:00 here

[@jong-wonlee4554]

Sadly, 10pm on a Sunday has become one of my most anticipated times of the week. from Brisbane

[@4tech404]

The tank would also be ideal for Romania since we sure as hell won't produce anything and Abrams are too expensive or Leopards are too slow to produce. Being from the ex-Warsaw pact, I suspect a lot of countries will also pick Poland as their supplier of MBT. Germany seems weak and too afraid to do anything. In case of a real conflict they would deny any equipment transfer or replacement parts.

[@mordie31]

You are completely right. Germany is just a puppet state now; they are completely controlled and have been mostly neutered since WW2. It's actually sad to see, even as a Pole.

[@qwertyq12345]

It won't. Poland should've gone for sepv3/sepv4, so should Romania.

[@qwertyq12345]

K2 we bought cost almost the same as M1A2sepv3.

[@4tech404]

@@qwertyq12345 Romania is not that flat. I dont think Abrams are a good fit for us , especially the high cost of operating them.

[@qwertyq12345]

@@4tech404 K2 is a paper tank and unlike m1a2, Leopard2a6 or newer, it won't stop russian Kornet. I value solider's life more than money. K2 is great against trash North Korea is using but Russia is a different league.

[@jonson856]

It seems to me Korea and Poland are building a great relationship. I mean shortly after the Korean weapons deal, Poland and Korea also announced a NPP deal for Poland.

[@johanmetreus1268]

?NPP

[@teer7461]

@@johanmetreus1268 Nuclear Power Plant. At present, the Polish energy sector is over 70% based on coal and lignite. There is a plan to build several nuclear power plants over the next decade - the first power plant is to be built by the Americans, the second by the Koreans.

[@johanmetreus1268]

@@teer7461 Hope they'll look into thorium as fuel, as that would increase the independence regarding the fuel supply.

[@SirAntoniousBlock]

Excellent, soon Russia will be caught in a Ukraine/Polish/Sth Korean pincer. ☺

[@jgw9990]

@@johanmetreus1268 India is building thorium I believe as they have loads of deposits of it. Its early days, but hopefully they pull it off.

[@nekomakhea9440]

Another advantage of ROK DIB you forgot to mention was their electronics industry. Samsung is one of the big three silicon producers, and does a lot of their own design for electronics. Heavy industry products like tank engines need electronics to run, all the sensors are likely made with Korean electronics too, and the electronics is one less thing that a third party like the US or Germany can attach strings to in a tech transfer deal. The US trade war with China and US sanctions on Russia illustrates how much tech transfer restrictions on electronics can hamstring a country's military.

[@davidjacobs8558]

K9 Howitzer was designed and built by a Samsung subsidiary named Samsung Techwin back in 1999, before Samsung sold that division to Hanhwa, which was then just an explosives manufacturing firm.

[@diazinth]

@@davidjacobs8558 sounds like a good pedigree for an artillery producing firm; electronics and explosives.

[@jakubw.2779]

we don't need to worry about electronics, since our military electronics are top notch. Look at WB Electronics, PCO, Radmor etc.

[@sambecker23]

'A major invasion from An unknown country from the east of Poland' 😂

[@roberthoward9500]

Those Ukrainians are pretty aggressive.

[@BBP-OMO]

@@roberthoward9500 gotta keep those Lithuanians at bay

[@napsterxxl]

@@BBP-OMO Those damn Latvians cannot be trusted

[@KoRbA2310]

@@BBP-OMO Belarus do be wildin lately.

[@dlmsarge8329]

Funny stuff!

[@jamesspry3294]

Great job mate! Poland seems to be very prescient. Buying up lots of kit, in preparation to send their old stuff to Ukraine. Signing contracts with the Koreans to produce more kit they can sell to the rest of EU (particularly ex Soviet bloc countries like the Baltics and Moldova) so they can pay for it all, and keep the Ruskies out. Meanwhile everyone else is arguing about how many shells they should sell to the Ukrainians... Very strategic thinking Poland. Well done!

[@robertklimczak5630]

oprocz tego chodzi i nasz polski tylek by go zachowac

[@tdb7992]

Mate, you just dropped this at 7:49pm Western Australian time, and I have to be up at 4am tomorrow for work. Looks like work's just gonna have to miss out on me turning up with a fully functioning brain. Love your work :) This war has made everyone love Poland and Ukraine.

[@jdelark6428]

It's after 11pm here on the east side. Informative and weirdly calming to snooze to this master PowerPoint presentation. And to learn something at the same time.

[@karl-erikpolitanov5833]

Same here in melbourne, 5 am wake up, but my favorite powerpoint show takes priority over sleep 😀

[@murdercom998]

@@karl-erikpolitanov5833 Wake up its already 4:40am West coast of canada =P

[@jgfjfgjfhjf]

meanwhile in Poland: it's dinner with babcia o'clock

[@raf.b]

@@jgfjfgjfhjf actually yes. it was 13:30

[@notyetidentified9720]

I will just add that the talk between most Polish military experts and among some current/former military is that the most likely plan is to get rid entirely of not only T72 and PT91 but also, in a long term, of Leopards. So the intended tank fleet is most probably going to contain only 2 types: abrams and K2/K2PL

[@richwalter3107]

That's what Divest to Invest is all about.

[@kamilosowski3889]

@@richwalter3107 Yeah but it's also not fully correct. It's not like we plan to get rid of T-72s and Pt-91s... We no longer have any T-72s and most probably also Pt-91s (however our military denies that). These are already in Ukraine.

[@marekrondo9701]

Nie mamy już T-72 i prawdopodobnie nie mamy już żadnego PT-91. Wszystkie leją orków na Ukrainie.

[@mordie31]

@@kamilosowski3889 Does our military deny it though? I mean, maybe, but we all know we no longer have T-72s or if we do it's only a few dozen.

[@kamilosowski3889]

@@mordie31 It doesn't deny sending our T-72s but they keep their mouths shut when it comes to Pt-91s. And unofficially we no longer have those as well :) or at least vast majority of them

[@channelname12]

It looks like a long-term cooperation between South Korea and Poland. It is not only about military technologies, but also civilian ones. On October 30, 2022, a contract was signed for the construction of the second nuclear power plant in Poland (the first is to be built by US).

[@OneMonster]

Wait, what? AFAIK the US companies, not S Korean, were selected to build this plant - right?

[@channelname12]

@@OneMonster You are right. I corrected the original comment.

[@urktklirk9770]

Love Poland and Korea from 🇹🇷🇹🇷

[@tesla3388]

Support Turkiye🇹🇷🇹🇷 From South Korea🇰🇷🙏🏻 🇹🇷🇰🇷🇹🇷🇰🇷🇹🇷🇰🇷

[@urktklirk9770]

@@tesla3388 thanks bro ❤️

[@soltys1986]

Greetings from PL

[@therealuncleowen2588]

Great video, very informative, thank you. I think there may be one other factor I haven't heard you mention. In the event that either South Korea or Poland faces future invasion by a random world power, on day one we can guess that their armaments factories will be targeted. In either case, in theory they can then rely on the other partner's armaments factories to supply spare parts and replacement units, at least to some extent. It is highly unlikely that both Poland and South Korea will be invaded at the same time. Granted, it's unlikely either would be invaded, but we would have said the same thing about Ukraine one year ago. I suspect having such a partner on the other side of the world is one other potential advantage to this arrangement. As an American, I absolutely love the fact that Poland and South Korea, both of whom have faced invasion in living memory, are stepping up so massively to defend themselves. It is easier to be clear-eyed about such things, when your grandparents can tell you stories of the past, and when every other village has a memorial to past horrors of foreign invasion. Or in Korea's case, when you still border the crazy kingdom up north, a short drive from your capitol city. Of course, I believe America would step up to defend either nation, were they invaded, but you really have to prepare to defend yourself alone for at least some period of time until foreign military help can arrive. Slava Ukraini! Long live free Poland! Long live the free Republic of Korea!

[@robertklimczak5630]

prawda,liczymy tez na wspolprace przy k3

[@melkor2024]

interesting observation :)

[@cavalryscout9519]

Another thing you didn't mention is that several countries had issues with Germany blocking transfers of equipment they bought from Germany to Ukraine (Finland, Estonia and Poland, but there might have been others), so there is likely a market for military equipment which specifically doesn't come from Germany. The band of countries from the Baltic to the Black Sea generally coordinate a lot on military matters, cross-train with each other, and trade/sell equipment between one another, so Polish-built Korean designs would be likely to sell well. Also, if Ukraine is very likely to want a similar deal if it works out for Poland.

[@mattwardman]

Also the attempt to take out the Swedish submarine industry.

[@HanSolo__]

@@mattwardman Did not know about Karlskorona shipbuilder forced by TKMS to leave export bids. Thanks. Germans do look like want to stretch their legs in the military industry after the Ukraine war.

[@foldionepapyrus3441]

I don't think Ukraine will be in a position to want a similar deal for rather a long time - they have a battered country to rebuild and normal economy to restart when this mess ends. If anything they are more likely going to get a few more tanks going missing over a Polish border (free or at discount rates). It is actually good for all of Europe economically and politically to have stable functional neighbors (which is what makes Germany's seeming reluctance to actually commit any significant help extremely annoying), and Poland will get some payout from it eventually with the maintenance costs anyway. But potentially its very very important for those near the mostly likely only wounded bear - Make sure Ukraine is in a position to rebuild and defend itself properly promptly and hopefully the bear stays quiet. Though who knows what the state of Ukraine and Russia will be when this does end. Maybe the Bear will be dead and its cubs to busy fighting each other to bother the rest of the world..

[@ladrok97]

@@foldionepapyrus3441 Why would SK even offer deal to Ukraine? Like Ukraine will seek cooperation with Poland on military equipment at most. SK cooperating with UA would mean bigger loses for SK

[@kamilszadkowski8864]

Good thinking. As far as I know, Romania is already showing interest in buying K2 tanks.

[@TheUltrahypnotoad]

America has not mastered teleportation? Red Alert was lying to me!

[@gmradio2436]

Chronoshpere still needs work. We keep getting dinosaurs.

[@pokjunam2163]

Korea and Poland will form a mutual security relationship The compatibility of weapons would be a lot of cross-border cooperation

[@bogdanbaudis4099]

I WAS born in Poland's North-East. Out of my town there are 4 directions where M1A could possibly go if staying on the highway or close. Some of the feeder roads are literally paved-over swamps ... and there are small hills all over the place with valleys in between them full of soggy peat. In autumn or springtime, I am pretty sure if one left M1A standing there, after few days maybe the turret still would be showing up ...

[@Prussia_is_not_yet_lost.]

That is the Weichseldelte where my ancestors where driven away from by the poles. Actually my ancestors dried up those swamps for the Barone von Loytzen, and german Noble house from Danzig. Not even the polish king brought us there but the germans who where in the mayority there till the poles attacked constantly the germans and russians from 1500 to 1700 A.D. when the surrounding countries decided to finish the poles once for good for their constant warmongering. Every year the poles rode to Moscow and besieged it burning it down one time. There is a reason why the russians want to take on the constantly unrestfull poles. There is no peace in that region as long as Poland exists in such a big country. I am sure the russians regret having destroyed Prussia since the germans would be the way better choice for peace in that region for Russia. Poland has to cut back between the rivers Oder and Weichsel. Everything east of the Weichsel is Prussia and german and everything west of the Oder is german as well being West Prussia. Prussia is not yet lost!

[@bogdanbaudis4099]

@@Prussia_is_not_yet_lost. "That is the Weichseldelte where my ancestors where driven away from by the poles" You are probably a RuZzian troll but in any case: get you f...g geography right. Nope, Teutonic knights never got there, neither Prussians, nor any stinking Germans apart from occupiers who eventually froze. The Yatvingas had lived there but they got on nerves of Lithuanian, Ruthenian and Masovians (kinda Poles) so much that only few graves could be found. From then on Poles and Lithuanians lived there, as they do now. This was never part of Prus, Teutonic Order or Prussia. BTW: Nothing in Prussia is German or Russian. These are all stolen land from Prus which were Balts. F..k Teutonic scum and f..k Germanic Prussia were just land thieves.

[@PolakInHolland]

That's why the lighter K2s are to be based in Mazury.

[@Ciborium]

Without an Armed Services Support Fund, like Poland, you get a situation like Germany. As you explained in depth in a previous video, Germany has an annual "use it or lose it" procurement model. They can't buy anything because the process takes so long that the funds are withdrawn before the process gets to the actual "buying stuff" phase.

[@kamilszadkowski8864]

This was sort of true for Poland in the past as well.

[@avroarchitect1793]

I think the only NATO nation with a worse procurement model is Canada, not only is it "use it or loose it" but every purchase plan that costs more than a few hundred thousand dollars becomes a major election issue, pretty much immediately.

[@kimj2570]

@@avroarchitect1793 In Finland, if procurement need in long term is recognized, when good delivery schedule, reliable supplier and good price is found, couple hundred million EUR is no problem to be decided in couple weeks. And if preconditions are not met, we have habit of sitting on our wallet for years.

[@jasse803]

Perun, you are so absolutely right that all those purchases are also about transfering technology. But you should also remember that the whole deal is not only about hardeware, tanks, planes, SPGs. Poland is also concluding high level talks with S.K about building of 2 (atleast) nuclear power stations, and new korean hydrogen train engine technologies. So it is way way bigger than only K2s and such. Awesome work Perun, awesome. Happy New Year.

[@soltys1986]

Because first nuclear physicist Maria Skłodowska -Curie was born in Warsaw And nuclear polon is Mamed after Poland ( latin Polonium means Poland) I am glad, that we will buy a nuclear technology from South Korea and US. We deserve this i think. Greetings from Pl.

[@jtking76]

Perun is simply the best I've found when it comes to up to date international military analysis on youtube in terms of detail of data and depth and breadth of knowledge. The real cherry on top of the sundae is his spot on wit. Being the best at what you do and making it entertaining puts him in a league of his own.

[@Shooban]

Excellent job Perun ,you are really good in what you doing!!! Regards from Poland

[@drearyplane8259]

10:20 Relying on your allies is not a strategy that's gone well for Poland in the past

[@ThePumpkinRot]

Unfortunate but true. Trusting any European power is like Russian roulette.

[@lynngreydanus-smith8816]

To true

[@LMB222]

Perhaps, but Poland isn't strong enough to produce on its own. The country simply has to rely on foreign components.

[@zombie2356]

@@ThePumpkinRot Poland learned on this fact, we don't have any trust for Germany and France for sure, we trust US and UK somewhat, because it's in their intrest to save NATO, sure, but France and Germany would sell us to Russia in a moment.

[@thorthewolf8801]

Yeah, look how it turned out in ww2, left under the hold of the SU..

[@studiosnch]

The rapid modernization of the Armed Forces of the Philippines can be attributed partly with the Korean buying spree: from the FA-50, to the Jose Rizal Class frigate, to the KM500 trucks, and the Daewoo K3. Seeing this happen again in Poland proves that the Korean arms industry can match the industry of other countries beyond the Asian region for weapons that deliver excellent quality for a good price.

[@knpark2025]

36:30 As a South Korean myself I agree to the Chieftain's opinion. Poland's arms industry at 2021 is the past which South Korean counterpart also went through. For example, South Korea in the 70s and 80s needed a newer tank than the M48. The K1 MBT, the predecessor of the K2, is a tank developed in a partnership with Chrysler, the developer of M1 Abrams. The K9 SPH is made in need for a better self-propelled howitzer than the K55, a Korean licensed version of the M109. Korea knows they don't make the best tanks or the best howitzers so deals can prioritize making new friends instead. It's a more peaceful and sentimental way to "export democracy".

[@hishot1078]

You have to understand sometimes developers stick with older tech, reliable, and try to reduce cost overall depending on the main user's situation such as budget, number, and experience. K9 has outstanding features while it also lacks more complicated systems. Developers knew cost overrun, delays and its consequences. K2 on the other hand, it was designed to be the best tank, at least the goal was. And K2 actually has many features that became basic requirements for other tanks developing/upgrading nowadays. Way before recent wars. As I'm doing deep dive into this, K2 actually deserves to be called as next generation tank, or "4th" generation.

[@Song26664]

The korean government's plan is basically to make Poland as the European market's foothold. One of the major issue of European nations buying Asian weapons is that supply line is incredibly long. Even the tiniest component should be produced and delivered from South Korea and it means months of waiting. South Korea wants to mitigate this problem By building factories in the Poland, thus shorten the supply line and make the korean weapons seem more attractive to the eyes of possible buyers.

[@davebauman4991]

The Polish government’s plan is to deny any economic benefit to the petroleum state from which Europe depends upon. Every unit purchased in Europe pays a cut to Putler & co.

[@zhufortheimpaler4041]

and that the european marked is more or less saturated. i mean almost everybody usees leopard 2 or is buying leopard 2

[@KellAnderson]

And Ukraine will need to rebuild their entire military as soon as this war is over.

[@zhufortheimpaler4041]

@@KellAnderson yeah but they have even less money than poland. so guess what they will buy/restore: T-72B3´s etc. Poland has already less than 1/4 of the larger eurpean nations in military spending, Ukraine agian has about 1/3 of the polish spending. Just the equipment of a Brigade with 2 MBT, 2 Mech, 1 Artillery and 1 light infantry bataillon based on current western equipment (Like Leo2A7, KF-41, Boxer etc) would blow Ukraines full annual military budged. for just the heavy equipment. Personnel equipment etc isnt even included in that. Ukraine will rebuild its military, but will very likely retain a very large core of ex sovjet equipment. Unless NATO buys Ukraine the Equipment.

[@reggievonramstein]

@@zhufortheimpaler4041 and will get them next century 😂

[@MotherChucker-k4o]

Poland is the gigachad of Europe. Much love from America🇺🇸🇵🇱

[@maciejp8001]

Hi, congrats on a realy good video. Let me add some info that there was missing. 1. Tanks. T72 and T91 are no more in Poland. They were donated to Ukraine and thus the Army has shortage of 300+ tanks. Thats why Gov is on buying spree and they take Abrams + K2 of shelf. The K2 was considered to be a go to tank here in Poland for a few years now. Its merrits could have been already evaluated by the military and industrial partners, thou unoficially. Also we do know like 1/2 of it as the Krab uses it chassis and we already make them localy! 1A. Leppards are NO GO for us as there are constant issues when you try to upgrade them, basically Germans are greedy as hell and dont want any participation in it. Thats why our domestic upgrade to Leo5PL is soo late. 1B. MGCS - Poland wanted to participate in this program but as in the Leo case Fr and Ger just wanted us to be a customer. As we need more tanks than this 2 countries combined its pretty clear why we chose other options. 1C. Infrastructure. Polish bridges and roads are not heavy enought for operation of Abrams tanks. As US Army exp forces are based in the north some of critical infrrastructure was adjusted to requirements of their tanks. Still it would be crazy expansive to rebuild whole coutry infrastructure to match Abrams req. Thus they chose to buy 2 different specs that differ in weight. 2. Howitzers. We had some considerable stockpiles of soviet era equipment. Those were planed to be replaced in "the future". As we have sent to Ukraine most of our stockplie quite suddenly we need to replace it with smth else. We have also donated some Krabs and additional were ordered by Ukraine. Local production capabilities are just not significant enought. We were already planning for Krab to be modernized with auto-loader. I suspect it was just faster and easier to get license from Korea. Do bare in mind that Krab is K9 with different turret. So in the end we will have Krab with K9 (oryginal) turret and auto-loader, but also benefiting from Polish electronics expecially the Topaz system thats equivalent of IBCS for artilery!!! 3. FA50PL. Those I consider a cost optimalization decision. We need to replace Su-22 and Mig-29 as all parts were sent to Ukraine and Russia ain't gonna sell us more. They have low operating costs. So for a day-to-day duties they will be supperior choice over F16 and F35. Hope it gives some local prespective.

[@PerunAU]

Do you have any good (polish language included) sources confirming that most of the PT91s have gone? best info I have suggests that Poland still retains the tank as part of the fleet

[@ladrok97]

@@PerunAU He can't have. We know about one division (so 58 or 44) and way later some reports which suggested that roughtly 100 were delivered, but it was very dobious. So technicly Poland still operate PT-91 and T-72 (T-72 probably few, where most of leftovers are left to be spare part donators)

[@martalukaszjastrzab760]

@@PerunAU There're no official sources. The best one are Ukrainian ones. They very often thank us for stuff we've never officially sent.

[@Soggy-In-Seattle]

This was excellent. Thank you for the clarification on why Poland is moving in a new direction.

[@demondeity9816]

Technology transfer seems to be a big issue for Poland, same reason why Poland chose both the US and Korea for a nuclear power plant deal. The Koreans offered the technology to be transferred.

[@ulf5738]

Norway has been offered technology transfer of K2 MBT. Also Korea will buy Norwegian tech for the same amount of money. This is a major deal for Norway.

[@DSFARGEG00]

This is purely speculative, but Polish distrust of Germany as a political partner could have played a significant role in them being disinterested in pursuing the Leopard further. And since the Russian attempt to annex Ukraine began you've seen Germany shown recalcitrance wrt. transfer of its equipment into Ukrainian hands, even from third parties. If you're a Pole and have to live next to Russia, do you REALLY want a foreign country with whom you share a complex relationship to control your tank production and source of spare parts? Especially when that country has, until recently, shown a disturbing deference to Russia?

[@croc501]

No no, not Polish distrust but shit PIS and Kaczor

[@JakubHromadzki]

@@croc501 No, it's the Poles' lack of trust in the Germans. I refer to the latest research by Sadura & Sierakowski.

[@croc501]

@@JakubHromadzki so apparently I don’t trust the germans then, right?? Because i am a Pole and what pis and small amount of Polish people say apparently means that every pole doesn’t trust the Germans

[@croc501]

@@JakubHromadzki i am pretty sure you just named two Piss oh wait i meant pis people

[@mrd7067]

To my understanding poland does still do things against the few germans living there (there are videos on this) Then the staff at Majdanek for example says something different than the USholocaustmuseum and other places- If you were to say the exact same things in germany as the USholocaustmuseum and other jewish voices you`d risk legal trouble and jail in germany for. And then there are also things like this polish book: "Ku wrzesniowi 1939. Zbrojne ramie sanacji" Old newspaper artices like the following: California Digital newspaper collection Madera Tribune, Volume LXXIV, Number 98, 24 August 1939 POLE GUNS FIRE ON DANZIG PLANE German Planes Detour to Avoid Attack DANZIG, Aug. 24. -Early morning bathers reported today that Polish guns fired 10 shots at a Danzig sports airplane and that shell fragments fell in the streets of Zoppot, in free city territory. The German Lufthansa company abandoned direct airplane service, across the Pomorze area of Poland, separating Germany proper from East Prussia and Danzig. Planes were detourned over the Baltic as the result of today’s and yesterday’s alleged Polish firing on German planes. Why are the statements of polish dilomats and politicans from the 1939 timeframe and before getting ignored? Why had the polish marshal Rydz-Smigly a oil painting of himself in triumph march under the Brandenburger Tor in summer 1939? The by now declassified diplomatic exchange also is quite interesting (e.g. DOCUMENT 161 Beck to Lipski in the polish white book no. 110, p.119 and the english blue book no. 102, p. 102). Also interesting are the books: In Allied London by Count Edward Raczynski Hell's Mouth: Confessions of Count Nepomuk As well as statements and deeds made by Pilsudski and Edward Rydz-Smigly And more. What happened in poland after ww1, ww2 and between? Why did the nuremberg trials and other trials follow the following rules: International military tribunal charter Article 19. The Tribunal shall not be bound by technical rules of evidence. It shall adopt and apply to the greatest possible extent expeditious and nontechnical procedure, and shall admit any evidence which it deems to be of probative value. Article 20. The Tribunal may require to be informed of the nature of any evidence before it is entered so that it may rule upon the relevance thereof. Article 21. The Tribunal shall not require proof of facts of common knowledge but shall take judicial notice thereof. It shall also take judicial notice of official governmental documents and reports of the United Nations, including the acts and documents of the committees set up in the various allied countries for the investigation of war crimes, and of records and findings of military or other Tribunals of any of the United Nations. To my understanding german guilt for Katyn has been established there. How does/did ths case differ from anything else there? It`s even nudged on in the in things before: The Moscow Conference; October 1943 STATEMENT ON ATROCITIES (at the end) "... Thus, Germans who take part in wholesale shooting of Polish officers ..." Which other "wholesale ...." could have been meant here than Katyn". Especially considering the sowjet track reckord with executing polish leadership and the forced enlistment of more than 100k poles in the red army after Operation Barbarossa started? Why was and still is international law (e.g. the Hague convention or the UN genocide convention) getting ignored in the case of germany?

[@paulh.9526]

I saw Perun, and never clicked so fast

[@Bootskum1]

100% this!

[@arthur2014]

The fastest click… In the woooooorld

[@tougheddie7297]

Perun and drachinifel, two of the best channels on KZbin.

[@sugandesenuds6663]

we need a perun powerpoint addiction group anonymus.

[@scoobydoobers23]

Poland is currently manufacturing an exportable version of the Blackhawk and has managed to sell it to multiple foreign buyers. Which is pretty impressive.

[@superbudegu]

I think the polish made blackhawk is called the S-70i

[@scoobydoobers23]

@@superbudegu Yep. The Philippines has ordered quite a few. They actually ordered more after Russia's invasion because they realized the Russian helicopters they ordered would never arrive.

[@juliuszkocinski7478]

The funny part for me is that despite no equivalent currently in service apart from decaying soviet stuff and domestically made W-3 Sokół (Falcon) helicopters there were little plans to adopt Blackhawks to the Polish air force

[@Rorschach1024]

Also consider, that with production and repair facilities in Poland, sales to Norway start looking better. Repair facilities are right next door and only a train ride away. Whereas Korea repair means a ship trip back to Korea. So this may be intended to sweeten the deal for Norway.

[@silentbob5566]

Korea being far away is a feature, not a bug: they're not entangled in European politics, which is an euphemism for mud slinging and betrayals.

[@Rob_F8F]

Love Perun's humor! 8:45 If someone is matching through Trafalgar Square, then someone at the Royal Navy or Royal Air Force has really screwed up.

[@666Tomato666]

You may enjoy the "Yes, Prime Minister" episode about Nuclear deterrent.

[@dracolazarus7776]

Or the French just took the Eurostar :p

[@terranempire2]

Korean arms are making a strong inroads into NATO, the K9 is basically NATO’s now default sph with the UK even taking a look. K2 has Poland and Norway. AS21 based of K21 is in the running for potential Polish buy, it’s in both the American and Australian IFV programs. I think K2 might have more a potential interest in Europe now. I mean Romania is supposedly looking for a new tank. The conflict in Ukraine might push other neighbors to join.

[@adrianlang6550]

This is such a fascinating video. Great to use the (i assume) Irish technical expert in the narrative. I can see Polands Baltic neighbours and Ukraine being very interested in the Polish kit in the future. Thank you A

[@SamGray]

I recall talk of, "The M1 was designed to fight in Europe. Will it work in the desert?" I'd say if the K2 works in harsh terrain, it'll probably still work in less harsh terrain.

[@IndoPacEyes]

🤣🤣 well said

[@magiccarpetmadeofsteel4564]

A fair point, but friendly reminder that most of that talk was from “reformer” numbnuts.

[@ThePaciorr]

The thing is european plain is the HARSH terrain not the hills and mountain in Korea. Basically, you need more armor on tanks that are more prone to taking hits especially hits from different sides.

[@kgjung2310]

@@ThePaciorr Hence the K2PL variant.

[@Pawelec801]

Poland did give a try to upgrade its fleet of LEO 2A4 its called LEO 2PL. Apparently working with German manufacturer proved so encouriging that Poles decided to run to Koreans...

[@SirAntoniousBlock]

Poland: Sth Korean never invaded us.

[@adriankrajewski85]

@@SirAntoniousBlock Germany appeared to be not a reliable business partner any more, which is not the case with loyal & professional South Korean approach. Simple as that..🇰🇷👍🏻

[@fujiwaraemiko7318]

@@adriankrajewski85 Would you be a relilable business pratner to someone that demnands discounts so hight that you earn close to ZERO? I saw someone using the term cash cow. Looks a bit like poland is treating germany like that in many areas. Bad bad germans, right? NO, there are always two in a boxing match!

[@JaneCobbsHat]

@@fujiwaraemiko7318 Germans didn't want to give Poland the deal Poland wanted and so Poland turned to SK and US who did offer Poland what Poland wanted. So it was clearly possible to satisfy Poland's demand at terms that both sides agreed to.

[@TheNecromancer6666]

K2 is a bloody impressive design. We don't know its operational capabilities, but an Autoloading L55 in a realtively compact package....

[@aureaphilos]

Another A+++ presentation, Perun. Your videos hit just as we're waking up (eastern USA) and my kid and I always go for a morning drive so that we can enjoy your presentation - either before breakfast or just after -- and we have such good discussions related to your topic. Building a new industrial complex can have several medium- and long-term collateral benefits: construction flourishes as facilities and infrastructure are built, manufacturing jobs are created, training and design centers can draw young adults to the area, and local businesses sprout to serve all those people.

[@mordie31]

As a Pole I really appreciate him saying "most normal countries" LOL. I can safety say we are not quite normal. ;-) Much love for this video mate. Peace.

[@supreme3376]

Hmm nawet jeśli to mamy chęć mamy Środki i wciąż jesteśmy "głodni"

[@donaldhill3823]

It occurred to me that buying from multiple sources the Poles get a modern army fast with less fear of 1 supplier dragging out production. However it also gets to test wide verity from which it can come up with its own future design based on best features of each.

[@mikeynth7919]

And if everyone else is suddenly rearming, there will be production bottlenecks in the local European sources - they may not be able to deliver on a time frame that suits Poland, whereas Korea is an untapped supplier to European markets and being closely allied with the US uses a lot of US standardized (hence NATO standard) ammunition.

[@danielreynolds4116]

Classic one hour sunday session on things i totally didn't think I needed to know but now i do.

[@jakehautakorva1651]

"...to repel for example a major invasion from an unknown country to the east of Poland" Very diplomatically put! :D

[@MrGeneralissimus]

He meant Mongols, i'm sure of it.

[@slavbozyk7132]

It was spot on👍 "win - win" deal for Poland and Korea and hopefully for all other countries in Central and Eastern Europe

[@tamoroso]

So another reason that Poland may be interested in maintaining a serious military is that, while they absolutely are a member of NATO, and in my opinion NATO will definitely dogpile on any "unknown invader from the east" should such an invader materialize, Poland has previously counted on treaty obligations, and it went poorly for them, requiring an entire world war to restore the existence of Poland, and the eventual death of the Warsaw Pact in order to actually achieve the independence they enjoyed prior to September of 1939. Just sayin'.

[@tokarp390]

it is much more simple if Yu have land border with Dictatorship with army around 1 milion (China,KRLD,Russia) you need to keep appropriate firepower .

[@pRahvi0]

To be honest, they would get the wold war whether they needed it or not, since an invasion of NATO Poland would trigger war with most of Europe and North America anyway. But yeah, better be safe than sorry, since last time only the very first invader (Germany) was declared war on, the second one (USSR) being mostly ignored.

[@adriankrajewski85]

You got it! Nothing to be added. From the Pole..👍🏻🇵🇱😉

[@Prussia_is_not_yet_lost.]

That warmongering attitude was the normal behaviour of the poles in Prussia as well. Not to mention they attacked from 1500 till they got destroyed by Prussia, Austria and Russia in 1700 constantly Moscow on an yearly basis. The poles only get along with themselves and hate all other people. Thats why in Poland live relatively few foreign people. Everything what is not polish the poles hate. The germans experienced that over centuries but the poles got the english allways convinced of their peacefull and tolerant caracter. The polish King Wladislaw Wasa or was it Sigismund III brought in the moslem tartars and murdered away all Hutterites and Amish who lived in Poland and Prussia back then. Apparently just for fun. Thats how the Amish and Hutterites ended up in Northamerica. Same destiny the polish did to the protestant germans and Mennonites. The polish being catholic only are tolerant to other catholic poles. Any masuric evangelical poles they murdered away and out of the country as well from Prussia (today province of Masuria). Half Poland was once Prussia where german protestants lived. The whole thing went south when the poles finished after 1918 with the protestants killing at least 50.000 germans and then again after 1945 driving everybody out. Thats the reason Hitler invaded Poland in order to protect the german minority there which is the same thing what does today Putin in Ucraine. But nobody listenes nor cares about murdered minorities nor then nor today but blames "the bad guy" allways on the victims (the germans and russians). Germany should urgently join Russia to finish these polish warmongerers and get Prussia back. The polish never where considered good guys by the surrounding nations except by the poles themselves singing praise songs to their own people. I dont see Poland be able to afford an army. That will make them poor. Prussia (today half Poland) was allways considered the poor mans lands of the region since even when the germans had Prussia, they never had enough natural ressources. Thats why they lost WW1 and WW2. In the same situation is Poland today - they dont have any ressources. Thats why Hitler occupied Norway since the whole central european region does not have enough ressources to build a tank fleet of these 1000 Tanks. Once these tanks need spare parts these are out of combat. Not even to talk about fuel which Poland has none. Poland is a horse grasing and Sauerkraut country without natural ressources for an sustained steel hungry prolonged war. These 1000 Tanks are only unnecesary spendings but long range howitzers are usefull. Besides that Poland is now cut off from any russian natural ressources. Where they will get the iron ore and other metals from to build tanks? Shipping them from the US over the Atlantic half across the world is the only option. The russians just need to mine the polish harbours and havens so they are done. Prussia is not yet lost!

[@TysoniusRex]

Speaking of treaty obligations going poorly, Poland has since 2014 seen what US, British and Russian "guarantees" did for Ukraine. Given their history, they are wise look to to themselves and a reliable partner (ROK) to build their new military and national defense industry.

[@bungalowjuice7225]

You have an uncanny ability to make fools like me understand complex topics. It's the mark of someone who knows their stuff. I appreciate someone who doesn't go way too far outside their own expertise (like, random example, being a psychologist commenting geopolitics...) and also is humble enough to take the help of people more aquainted with a specific topic.

[@SpencerHHO]

The more you think about it the more the deals between Poland and Korea make sense. There is still tension with Poland and other EU countries especially Germany. Being in different parts of the world there is no such tension with Korea and in the case of major regional crisis Poland and Korea are insulated from each other. Of course this adds huge logistics challenges but with Korea willing to share IP the deals actually improve logistics as Korea can now effectively sell it's tech from Poland at a more competitive price as they don't have to ship whole tanks half way across the world.

[@grzegorzmalenta2359]

Poland and Germany are two different civilizations.

[@grrkaa8450]

any tension with Poland is not with the country as a nation with all it's needs and strengths but with the silly leading party that has been in power for the last couple of years

[@azzogathor]

​@@grrkaa8450 I will agree to this. PiS is, imho, not seen favorably anywhere in the EU right now. Even amongst neighbours. They are a bit .. out of touch? with where the EU is trying to go, collectively. However, they also played the Ukraine war considerably better than western europe and that is getting them quite a few props, as it should. No tension with the Polish people though, whatsoever. Maybe except in the UK where ( when I used to study there ) everyone that didn't look british enough got the usual "Pollak!" yelled at them by some chav or another.

[@slawomirkulinski]

21:15 - it's very simple, T-72 PT-91 -> to Ukraine, Leo's fazed out and replaced by Abrams and K2PL. In the end there will be 2 types of tanks Abrams and K2PL. Abrams mostly in armored divisions, K2 in mechanized divisions.

[@squiddlykicks8327]

Never apologize for "rambling" Chief. That's what we are here for. Great video guys!

[@JMM33RanMA]

There are a lot of similarities between Poland and S. Korea [대한민국], topography aside. Both countries are ancient, both have been at war with neighboring enemies, and Russia was an enemy to both. Both were occupied by foreign armies and both were wiped off the map, but recovered independence. Both had to overcome the ancient enemies of poverty and an entrenched and selfish ruling class. All of this leads both countries to have a very similar geopolitical stance that amounts to being as self sufficient as possible in defense and partnering with a more powerful nation that can help them to repel invaders, but is too far away to itself be a danger. In both cases the distant partner is the US. How this relates to the arms deal between Poland and Korea is that both countries work hand in glove with the US, Korea more so since its partnership with the US military goes back to the 1950s, and Poland continues to intensify its relationship with the US. The US has reduced its footprint [bases and permanent forces] in Korea, while Poland seeks to increase that. I know from my experience living in Korea that the Korean military is very close to the US, in fact the two militaries are under joint command. The Korean officer corps are required to have near native command of English, to be interoperable with US forces. They are, in effect NATO compliant, and NATO is US compliant. Yet this was not mentioned in the video. The main infantry weapon of the ROKA [대한민국 육군] is identical to that of the US. There are close non-military relations between the countries as well as the current very strong military one. There are 1.8 million* Korean Americans, and there are more than 9 million* Polish Americans. The Poles have a longer relationship with the US than most countries as they participated in the American Revolution, there are places in the US named after Generał Kazimierz Pułaski and Andrzej Tadeusz Bonawentura Kościuszko. *The numbers increase if you count people of multi-ethnic descent. The results of genetic studies are surprising to many Americans who have not kept track of where all of their ancestors came from!

[@mikeynth7919]

The ROK army being US standard thus NATO standard occurred to me, making resupply easier, occurred to me.

[@piotrd.4850]

Except, RoK was successfull.

[@JMM33RanMA]

@@piotrd.4850 Consider that Poland today is an independent country, a democratic country, a country without a selfish nobility [narcystyczna szlachta], and a country where the population has freedom of thought and choice. This is true of both countries, and that, compared to the past. Achieving all of that qualifies as success in many people's book. Freedom means that there is more that can be, even should be achieved.

[@jintsuubest9331]

I have no idea about Poland, but South Korea is still very much owned by selfish ruling class. They just a change of name from emperor of dynasty to CEO of corporation.

[@elgenerico6263]

Dude, I'm Polish and I'm supposed to study for a boring exam. You're actively forcing me to procrastinate!

[@Dante-fk4yi]

No no no, don’t put your procrastination on Perun. Humans are procrastinators by nature

[@bluefarie10]

Good comment and good luck with your boring exam. Good wishes from England .

[@xlerb_again_to_music7908]

prep using bullet points of the key issues. Write out 10 times so you can repeat them blindfold. Perfect Practice prevents Piss-Poor Performance...

[@ThaatEpicKitten]

Good luck with your exam! Fellow student from America

[@peterc.1419]

If you're Polish you get better info than from "The Chieftain" from Wolski.

[@kresimirperadinovic1652]

One headline poked me in the eye: Why is new model EU army being built in Korea? Anyone aware of the bureaucracy in place in EU, lobbies, politics, slow processes etc, understands why Poland wants a quick solution that won't take 13 years of thinking, 25 years discussing, and 8 years debating. At least.

[@Oooooof2024]

The decision to create new EU vehicles such next gen tanks and stealth aircrafts have already been made but many of them are still in the development stage and won't be put into the production for decades. So I don't think this is s bureaucracy problem

[@dariuszcaban4717]

It's not about UE, it's about Beralus.This big Army its essential to keep Russian away from Belarus.For security Poland and Ukraine specially for security two capitals Warszawa and Kijow.Its going to be war .In one site will be Polish and Ukraine combine big Army supported by Belarusian people and enemy will be Russian bear.This will be the final of Russian empire.

[@kazansky22]

@@Oooooof2024 Germany can't even maintain its military equipment or fulfill upgrade orders for Poland for many years, Or spend their 100bn on equipment because, bureaucracy.

[@StaalBurgher0]

And then blocked because the project team wasn't socialist enough

[@tonyhawk94]

@@Oooooof2024 We are not even sure these projects are gonna actually exist, France and Germany take YEARS to agree on parts of contracts that are not even the big deal yet.