Peter Hitchens reacts to Liz Truss promising to end a ban on new grammar schools

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[@blacklisted4885]

Holy shit, an actual Conservative policy. It'll never happen

[@Wallace43266]

Surprise

[@telephassarose3501]

The grey haired woman obviously hates the Conservatives…the stuff about Dixon of Dock Green etc was ludicrous…

[@DieFlabbergast]

Yes, these tired old tropes keep coming out, again and again, because they have no substantive counterarguments. I'm genuinely surprised that she didn't accuse grammar school supporters of being white supremacists.

[@augustuscaesar5997]

Typical Leftie, she benefited from a Grammar school, and now wants to pull up the ladder so that modern children don't also benefit...! ( Unless they're wealthy of course..! )

[@Chris-kz7us]

Very childish of her. Couldn't take her seriously after.

[@henrybartlett1986]

Hitchens hitting the nail on the head yet again. Access to a meritocracy removed.

[@GuyLegge]

I do hope you're joking Henry? To hear Hitchens talk you would think comprehensive schools set exams.

[@kevinbillington9773]

@@GuyLeggeI do hope your joking, when in the 60s or 70s would a graduate with a degree be flipping burgers for a living.

[@aldebaran9255]

I am an ex Grammar school student and a secondary school teacher. To suggest you cannot 'go back' is not as impossible as they make out. The intellectual capacity of young people is still the same as it ever was. It just needs the correct environment and support. Who will teach? There are thousands of us itching to see this go forward. Of course we can.

[@idreeskhan8885]

Its not about going back at all, what a dumb argument that is. You can make grammar schools to match the modern world- First make them have more of an intelligence test, not a test that you train for so much so it will take the brightest people regardless of financial background (modern education testing methods like GCSE's and A Levels are very easy to train for and this favours the rich). You can also take in people from poor backgrounds overwhelmingly, or have caps on the number of rich kids going to them. This really isnt that hard. Dont know why people cant tweak a few things with it.

[@idreeskhan8885]

@@dedgehog6835 You also need a proper curriculum and exam methods

[@pumbar]

I assume you are middle aged? The new breed of teachers will not be the instructors you are / were.

[@valeriegrimshaw1365]

I'm ex grammar school and a poor east end product with 2 degrees and sent my own kids to private schools under Maggie's assisted places..their aunt is a stupid lefty who objected to her taxes paying for this BUT when she had her own kids she moved to Kent for the grammar schools. Hypocrisy ( Harriet Harman ALSO sent her boy Harry out of Peckham to St Saviours and St Olaves grammar in Kent) OUR local secondary was famous for stabbings btw

[@MrReubenTishkoff]

Thing is, these days "teach" is understood as "indoctrinate". If you are going with real teaching intentions, you won't make it past the initial interview, if you are called for one.

[@Stop..carry-on]

Peters correct

[@d.jparer5184]

Give Peter his own show!

[@MadCapMag]

This is 2022. No one has to give you a show, you just make one. Read his books instead.

[@d.jparer5184]

@@MadCapMag no thanks

[@benvids]

All these people saying 11 years are crushed by not getting in, are insane. If a child feels crushed the parent has done the crushing. Wherever they end up going, celebrate it.

[@garyc9908]

Yes correct

[@valeriegrimshaw1365]

I went to an east London grammar school. Mum was a hairdresser and dad went from job to job. I sat in class with doctor's kids, dockers' kids, university lecturers' kids, a lad whose dad was in prison and brother in borstal....we all worked very hard and were mostly successful. The lad whose dad was in prison ended up as a top engineer at BT. That particular rug was ripped away from the likes of us by Tony Crosland Charterhouse educated Labour thickie. Labour did not want their core working class fodder getting educated and WISE to their commie shenanigans.

[@georgemather9082]

I didn’t go to grammar school, heck I wasn’t suited for it. I was suited for an apprenticeship however. Point is, it’s not about “equality” or being “smarter,” it’s about being better suited.

[@valeriegrimshaw1365]

There were technical schools and REAL trade colleges and training as with apprenticeships.

[@Enl1thened1]

I went to the 1st comprehensive in the country, it was a wasted 5 years I'll never get back, many lessons with no teachers, even the head said it was a complete disaster

[@razkhan2958]

Grammar school are good talent boys and girls

[@karentanner4002]

I was a " failure" at aged 11 But have gone on to carve a fantastic career ..as a senior clinician in medicine

[@blacklisted4885]

Big wow. Maybe it was never about fail, non fail

[@stephfoxwell4620]

Grammar schools taught us modesty and dignity.

[@cellbiologyshorts9105]

Cope

[@chriselfyn]

The 'elephant in the room' is the quality of teaching, regardless of the building in which it takes place. Most of the teachers at my 60's grammar school would not have survived a modern OFSTED inspection. In contrast, I have friends of my age who went to secondary moderns who had skilled and dedicated teachers, They went on to successful careers. Mr Hitchens makes the assumption that all teachers at Grammar Schools were skilled and dedicated.

[@Monicablackbelt24]

Peter Hitchens is spot on…

[@lairdkilbarchan]

In the private education sector these days you can expect to pay around £200,000 for the kind of education you would have acquired at a bog standard comprehensive school in the 1970's. However, it's worth every single penny.

[@macoooos9204]

A socialist jealous of other people's wealth & people with intelligence - imagine my shock.

[@michaelmurray7220]

I went to a Catholic School in Scotland and we were split up by ability anyway. Smarter kids in the top maths class and less smart kids in the lower maths class etc. Aren’t all comprehensive schools doing this? And if so then why are people against grammar schools? It’s the same principle. Personally I would bring back Grammar schools tomorrow if I could.

[@kalanos4660]

The solution is not to build more mediocre schools. I went to a comprehensive. There was a grammar school at the end of my road, but it was closed, and its facilities lost before I could have been educated there. Instead I was despatched to a school that was not much more than day care for older children. My generation was betrayed.

[@richardlewis1539]

The biggest problem of reintroducing Grammar schools, of which I was fortunate to be educated in, is that now the pupils will be ten times smarter than the teachers such is the standard of our teaching ( in Wales it's shambolic and is failing pupils to a degree that can only be described as criminal thanks to a devolved Labour government)

[@carolebarker2195]

"People in this country have no idea that Comprehensives were not introduced....to make things fairer....they knew that standards would fall and it was a huge social experiment conducted on helpless children, and it's failed." What a wonderful tirade, Peter. Spot on. I went to a comprehensive in the 70's, it was like "Kes".

[@valeriegrimshaw1365]

Absolutely spot on Peter Hitchens.

[@paulahickman7924]

What the grey haired lady is talking about is called mainstreaming over here ( canada) and its a disasters

[@SagaciousFrank]

When Peter Hitchens speaks, you can hear the passion in his voice. This subject - and the others he pronounces on - mean a lot to him.

[@jonesalex565]

That woman, gave the worst incoherent argument I've heard in a while. Did she really go to a grammar?

[@homebusiness8166]

In Bristol UK we had more Grammar schools than other cities up until 1980s

[@SagaciousFrank]

She benefitted hugely from them, but she's happy to close down that avenue of escape for others - great logic. 👍🏻

[@jillatherton4660]

TY Peter.

[@dartharpy9404]

Truth again from a legend

[@andrewking2036]

I take it this woman only became anti-grammar school after she'd tried to get her own children into one.

[@markymark7803]

Yet another back peddle by truss. I would never have had voted for her in the debates if I knew she would row back on 100% of her promises.

[@cosmicjack1215]

Peter is on point as always.

[@stonecoldjaneausten926]

Peter Hitchens. What a fucking Grammars school! 🏫 Love him!

[@ColinMill1]

One point with which I would take issue with Peter - the opportunity to migrate from the Secondary Modern to the Grammar school via, say, the 13+ was more virtual than real. The secondary modern in my area never entered any pupil for the 13+. Similarly no one was ever demoted from the grammar school to the secondary modern. I have subsequently discovered that this was the norm, certainly during the 1960s.

[@carolebarker2195]

Let's face it, teachers in the 60's and 70's were bloody lazy for the most part. They didn't care about encouraging kids and were more concerned with building their bolshy castles in the air and bolstering their own egos. At least that was my experience, hearing them ranting in the staff room.

[@homebusiness8166]

In Bristol UK we had 11 and 13 plus

[@DesmoDreams]

I went to a grammar school, and hated it!

[@J.A.Seyforth]

The continuing ignorance of the British isles in all directions is astounding

[@kevinbillington9773]

At least every one except the well off goes to the modern equivalent to a secondary modern now.

[@joebaird5874]

We still have grammar schools in Northern Ireland. The comprehensive system failed by dragging children down to the dumbest level in the class. Peer pressure is the key to success or failure.

[@vareast]

Excellent point. Dragging the lowest levels up is the only way to achieve success. This is true in many walks of life.

[@tennysonfordblackbird2087]

Very true Peter and if you don't live in the right area your f.......

[@alphabetaxenonzzzcat]

Whilst I agree with grammar schools, I do feel that the other types of secondary schools have to be developed(the secondary moderns and technical schools). I doubt this ban will be lifted though. The Tories show no inclination for actually improving education in this country.

[@albert21able]

I failed the Eleven Plus, I was sat in assembly hall taking a exam that I never had a clue what it was for.

[@carolebarker2195]

I can believe that. Teachers back then weren't big on explaining anything. Of course, the cane was still a major feature then.

[@steadfastandyx4947]

Got this woman is awful. She exemplifies the state our country has become.

[@brianwarden7250]

Reforming the selection process as opposed to throwing the baby out with the bath water maybe would yield better results??? But will Truss be there at Christmas???

[@bobwinner8936]

We need MOARE of Hitchens!

[@mnro123]

Needs More Time

[@Rootle2]

She was a flower child, no doubt about it

[@felixthecat3n2]

Let's not forget that employers are selective..

[@macoooos9204]

"The current year" argument.

[@kevinbillington9773]

Hitchens is right again. But admits he has no idea on solutions.

[@SagaciousFrank]

What is this lady on, since when did the Conservative party hold conservative views or tropes?

[@karenyoung8341]

Absolute tosh. If a child wants to learn, they will, no matter the school. One school? This woman needs to go outside once in a while

[@davidthomas3826]

New grammar schools would be great. The comprehensives are totally crap. What there needs to be are good alternatives to grammar schools for children who do not pass the selection tests. The woman in this debate typifies the middle class lefty hypocrisy. She benefitted from a grammar school education but doesn't want to see younger generations enjoy the benefits she was given. And they want to keep the current train wreck comprehensive school system because they buy a home near a good school. That way they don't have to send their little Jeremys and Jocastas to the same schools as working class kids without breaking their socialist principles

[@vincentswift7]

Take a look on chat sites and see how many people speak basic three letter English its it's we're were where as has to too two of off have they're there you're your

[@simonscarrott9071]

In my day the clever kids went to Grammar Schools and the dopes like me went to Comprehensive schools

[@Payne2view]

In previous generations I would certainly have been put in a Secondary Modern at 11+. However, I went to a Comprehensive where likewise I was "streamed" to sit amongst the deemed less able or slow pupils. It was only my personality and wish to try harder which got me moved up a band to where I would even be considered to do O'Levels. I could have quite easily given up on myself, like so many did. Even so I didn't do very well and the best grades I had were achieved by re-sitting GCSE's in Night-school after I left, in my early to mid 20s. Eventually I earned a BSc(Hons) Degree in Physics, in spite of the Comprehensive School system.

[@steveturner6770]

Well done. You obviously have a quality of perseverance.

[@DieFlabbergast]

Is this comment an argument FOR or AGAINST, the comprehensive system? It could be either!

[@audreyblack8629]

Many students got O levels in Secondary Modern as well! You actually needed to pass the 11 plus for Technical Colleges anyway.

[@ColinMill1]

@@audreyblack8629 It depends on the era. In the 1960s the Secondary Modern schools had their pupils leave at the end of the 4th year, age 15, one year short of being able to take O levels or even the lowly CSE exams. In this era, the vast majority of Secondary Modern pupils entered the job market with no qualifications at all. Not until the leaving age was raised to 16 did this change significantly.

[@ColinMill1]

I suspect I am from a slightly earlier era. I failed my 11+, went to the Secondary Modern and, as was the norm in the 60s, left, age 15, at the end of the 4th year with no qualifications. I applied for, and got, entry into the 5th year to take CSEs. This allowed me to gain entrance to Tech. College and night school to take O levels and then take A levels also at Tech. Eventually I obtained a BSc in physics and a PhD in atmospheric physics (the subject choice was luck, not prescience!) and became a lecturer at Manchester. So, from leaving school it took me slightly over a decade to achieve what I set out to do.

[@GuyLegge]

The idea that school exams have been dumbed down is ludicrous and it's about time Hitchens published his book or kept quiet.

[@entropy5431]

He is right. One example are matrices which used to be taught at O level/GCSE but are now reserved for A level. There has also been a massive grade inflation.

[@ColinMill1]

I was a university lecturer in physics between the 1970s and the 1990s and during that time we increasingly had to teach aspects of core physics that had been dropped from the A level syllabus. This, of course had consequences for what we could cover and down-graded the degree.

[@GuyLegge]

@@entropy5431 But A level is what one needs!

[@entropy5431]

@@GuyLegge My point is that exams across the board have been made easier, what ever level you achieve.

[@GuyLegge]

@@ColinMill1 This makes more sense Colin but what has this to do with comprehensives? ,, they don't set exams. I agree that higher education is in dire trouble. Take neuropsychology degrees for example that are pure junk science waffle that allowed Jonathan Miller to wander around university campuses parading himself as intelligent.

[@mnro123]

There's Only One Way We Can Do

[@Easternlodown]

Interesting discussion, but I do think Christopher Hitchens is portraying the discussion in a very simplistic way. He is totally correct, the German system has certainly kept its grammar schools, however, they have found that underprivileged children (especially those of immigrants) are at a huge disadvantage in the 11+ equivalent and thus the Gymnasiums are filled with a disproportionate number of more fortunate children. Also, to argue that an examination such as the 11+ is a true meritocracy/ true representation of a child’s abilities relative to another’s is laughable. Naturally, wealthier children have greater access to paid tutors, study guides etc etc and thus stand a better chance of performing well. I don’t know what the solution is but grammar schools do not guarantee equality of opportunity.

[@vareast]

It's a free for all here in Japan for high schools (grades 10-12). In theory, any kid can go to any school (I think the majority are private and you have to pay even for the state-unded ones) and in any location (some kids travel 2 hours each way every day to go to a good school). The schools decide who they want, but there is a massive choice and a massive range. Britain now seems to have a policy of de-educating kids.

[@shaaravguha3760]

I go to a grammar school in a very average area in east london (for sixth form). My previous school was a run-down state school and I can confidently say that there are proportionately more economically disadvantaged kids in my current grammar school. (more kids in council flats, free school meals, etc)

[@TonyMontana-zl8pz]

They're should be a limited amount, of the highest standard, because some grammar schools are way inferior compared to other grammar schools. Some tests are easier than the higher level grammar schools, they all need to be one top level, this coming from ex grammar pupil

[@zapbrannigan000]

this gov had 10 years to do this......all talk and no action.

[@KOL630]

I do think the 11+ is a bogus way to test kids IQ. In my school, a handful of children were taken to a separate room to take the test and they all passed. Everyone else failed it. Was totally rigged. It also mentally destroys kids to tell them they’ve failed at that age. Also kids are all different and their brains work in different ways. I failed mine and encounter people in my professional working life who are so called educated but cannot string a coherent sentence together. Nothing wrong with grammar schools as a concept but what should really be happening is that all schools are held to the same high standards and provide the attendees with the same good level of education. I am still bitter about my 11+ 30+ years later.

[@Portekberm]

How? 😂

[@Monicablackbelt24]

The whole education system needs overhauling .. why do we teach children things they don’t like or excel at and will never use! By year two senior youngsters should be able to choose subjects they enjoy and will use.. we also need to teach about taxes and bank accounts and how to budget etc! My younger daughter when she was a teenager asked me why they were not taught how to handle money etc.. because they don’t really want us all that educated!We also need politics OUT of the classroom .. which is the left’s favourite enrolment technique.. and the only way they can get voters through indoctrination!

[@shelleyphilcox4743]

What is stopping delivering grammar school quality in a comprehensive school? What is the 'magic' in the grammar school that cant be achieved via streaming subjects in a comprehensive environment?

[@mnro123]

One Thing

[@audreyblack8629]

So now no child gets a choice!

[@fletcherhamilton3177]

My father failed his 11+ 🤣

[@michaelhuggins8513]

Blame the left

[@shelleyphilcox4743]

Germany has a very rigid system with early selection about what educational.track you follow that is hard to change. Very few go onto tertiary education in comparison. It's interesting that it's always private and grammar school ex pupils that say they are better and a cut above? I think it's because they want to feel special and better than the comprehensive school kids and be seen to have an education like the one they imagine experienced by their privately educated chums. I went to comprehensives, my children went to both private and state comprehensive schools. Honestly, the teachers in their state school were very dedicated and the private school they went to was full of over indulged, nannied and micromanaged children. Educational attainment gap between the state and private school was very little, especially when you factor in the difference in class size and that the private school required you to be tested and be of a certain academic level before accepting you. Goes to show it's the quality of the teachers and broader team that makes the difference and not the money you pay.

[@chris-eq3sx]

Germany also kept on technical colleges which ensured that young people not going to university had a valued qualification which they could put to good use.

[@divvy1400yam600]

I agree that English education has been ruined but it was NOT via the introduction of Comprehensives It was the attitudes that were introduced into those schools that caused the problem. Grammar school methods could have been , and were intended to have been , introduced into Comprehensives. First two years to asses the the potential of the students and then stream with grammar methods imposed on the 'top' students The slow intro of 'wokey' ideology stopped that from happening ! Anyone ought to be able to see that a child of NOT rich middle class parents will on average be more educationally prepared than the child of a working class but relatvely rich parents. That was the failure of the 11+

[@cavendish009]

I agree wholeheartedly with this lady's ideas on Grammar Schools and all the other sorts of schools - we need them all.

[@peterevans7208]

Has hitches done any research The guy's mad

[@wendywolfman]

Yep. He wrote a book on it. Have you?

[@tonycoxall7370]

You haven’t researched his name: It’s Hitchens.

[@robertstewart239]

Didn't you hear him say that he has just written a book on the subject?

[@stephfoxwell4620]

Hitchens has spent 24 years studying this and written two books on it.

[@HaggisOfDeath]

Hitchens is also a narcissistic doom-and-gloom type, and I say this as someone who very much enjoys his content and who is certainly 'on his side' on most things. I don't overly blame him for being all doom and gloom considering the disastrous fall of this nation that he has watched in real time, but there have been worse periods in history that people have bounced back from. Things are terrible now, and Hitchens has gone his whole life talking about the problems without anyone really listening or putting into practice any of his solutions. So now he just says its too late, leave the country, etc. He's wrong of course, while one Englishman still breathes it is not too late; and all I can really put his demeanour down to is narcissism as he will not be the 'hero' who fixed all of our problems. That is going to fall to someone else, and while they might well be inspired by a lot of what Hitchens has said in the past; he will not be getting the glory. He needs to get over himself and continue to fight the good fight, and continue to spread sound ideas and doctrine, and to stop telling people that 'it's all over, we can't do that now, its too far gone, get out while you can'. The great heroes of history were always inspired by someone, they may not get the glory, but what they did and said is the true reason for why the hero had his victory; and for a good many up-and-comers Hitchens has been a great source of wisdom and knowledge; I would like him to continue to be, so drop the despair and instead go forth and encourage and inspire a new generation.

[@Mr_Spliffy]

First everyone. First