PF30 Bottom Bracket Explained, Creaking, Pros, Cons and Fitting Shimano Cranks

[@gnarlydroid]

This contributor really gets the useful information out in free form.

[@kailenpiardi2721]

not many people can say they are really educating others on youtube, not that he would say something like that haha

[@squeegy200]

Very informative. I've been reading article after article regarding PF30 and Shimano Cranks. This video consolidates all of the main points into a single understandable 12:51 minute explanation. THanks!

[@redlinechavez]

Very informative demonstration on this subject. I was just about to purchase a frame with the PF30 feature but I was questioning any chance of creaking of the cranks. This has helped very much. I just can't seem to find a perfectly built road bike. What a pain this venture has been from the very beginning. I am really thinking of just junking the whole cycling idea. What a shame. It's just not super simple and a simple joy. If it's not the cost, it's the questionably built components or a compatibility issue. But, yeah a very informative video. Your work is very much appreciated.

[@dmitryhetman1509]

Just buy bike and ride it, do not overcomplicate it. Hambini suggest time bikes or look bikes

[@lvirag8401]

hambini juvenilia is vital content in 2021

[@christophedelcourt996]

Great video. Super clear explanations, precise, complete on a not-so-easy topic. Many thanks.

[@rickardfrick2959]

No particular benefit to the consumer... nailed it Hambini!

[@howienordstrom1290]

Thanks so much for your videos, Hambini! I'm learning a ton! Your clear explanations and visuals are appreciated.

[@driventomadness117]

Excellent video. Well, that explains why my cranks barely spin in the spin test.

[@JClishe]

This was truly excellent, thanks for sharing.

[@whichdoctor4858]

Replacing my PF30 squeaky bearing today. Video helps and will probably buy an adapter.

[@aneeshfroome4464]

Ah I see you use Mitutoyo digital calipers! Good stuff xD

[@jerometridon6333]

What do you think of BBInfinite bottom bracket ? Il looks like your solution, no ?

[@gruanger]

This is a great video, your presentation and info is so good

[@bartlemy]

Just discivered your channel- great content. Thanks for the lessons!

[@dougmbaker]

Super video and very informative! Thank you for sharing your knowledge.

[@Hambini]

Thankyou for the feedback.

[@DS-nw1wc]

Well done on the video, you touched on all the key issues

[@Hambini]

Thanks very much. It's much appreciated.

[@Stephanpeev]

Hi Hambini, that's a great channel you have. I was surprised to find a little corner in the internet, where facts come first! Having bought a supersix evo a couple of years ago, I face a dilemma to work with what I have and invest in wheels or start from scratch with a better choice of frame and pick components along the way. From what I gather, the frame in itself is not bad, but it's nothing special either. What do you think? +1 on the poor bottom bracket though! Mine developed lateral play from new and after a lot of faff, the mechanic at the shop I bought it from said one of the cups was "loose" and had to refit it and I presume they packed it with retaining compound to keep it in place. On a separate note, do you have any knowledge of the commuter/urban bike market? I am going to get a new commuter, but am looking for something closer to a fixie/single-speed type. They all seem to come with rubbish Quando axles and pathetic brakes...

[@Hambini]

Hi Stefan, I commute on a Cervelo S5 so I'm the wrong person to ask. If you already have the frame, it's a false economy buying a new one unless there is a problem with it. A new frame will not make you significantly faster. However the wheels will make a difference. If you want good all round wheels I recommend Shimano C35/40/50/60 - they are robust and well made. Hope that helps Hambini

[@joshuayoung1622]

Hambini: incredible content! which manufacturers are known to drill straight holes? Or perhaps a better question, which bottom bracket standard(s) has the least issues? This will be a major decision point for building up my next bike. I currently have a trek with BB90 (not sure if you're familiar with trek and the BB90 v2 bearings, but it's a nightmare)! Thanks in advance!

[@Hambini]

Hi, I'd recommend Cippollini, Pinarello (because they are threaded) or Look. BB90 usually uses 37x24 bearings which are an odd size. If you get creaking you are stuffed because there is not much you can do to correct it short of putting lots of activator and retaining compound in it. Hambini

[@joshuayoung1622]

Hambini Performance Engineering Great, thanks! The dogma/gan fit the all around race function I'm looking for. I saw colnago has some new proprietary bb that's PF threaded. Any experience with that one? P.S. now I just need some Naca profile wheels with problem-free hubs... :)

[@edic2619]

Thanks for video.

[@harryhume]

Excellent tech vid. Also no blue language - not discovered FLO wheels yet?

[@sgomez3047]

Alright Hambini, I realize that you probably get swamped with questions so let me and to the list. I have an Orbea Orca with a BB86. I am currently running Dura Ace 9000. (that's what it came with) however I am a Campy guys and plan on switching to Record 11sp. This is where it gets a little gray for me and where you come in. Now, the dura ace crank is rather close to the frame without the need for bearing cups. Therefore (I think) more power and less BB deflection and stress to the BB and frame. Campy requires cups for the BB bearings. Therefore pushing the crank arms out and additional 20mm. (10mm per side) My thought is that the spindle is longer on campy and increasing the leverage on the BB / frame with each peddle stroke and increasing the chance for a creak or making the BB hole on frame oval. (relatively speaking) your thoughts? Thank you for your time!

[@Hambini]

There are a couple of things to consider. Technically, the Campag system is superior because it uses an interference fit on the axle and not the bottom bracket body. Shimano has it's interference fit on the body and the axle is a sliding fit. The ability to take load with an interference fit on the inner race is increased. When you get to around 90mm of bearing spacing there isn't going to be much difference between the two. The crank arm stiffness is a variable that needs to be considered. Parking the design to one side and now speaking from personal opinion. I would stick with the Shimano system every time. I'm not a shimano lover by any means and they are not immune to their share of F*ck ups but their manufacturing systems and tolerances are miles better than Campy and SRAM. The other two don't even get close. The Shimano system looks to me as an engineer like someone who was very switched on designed it. The Campy system lacks from the same level of manufacturing engineering. Hope that helps Hambini

[@rodrigocespedes8581]

great video , you have the gift of teaching.

[@Hambini]

Thankyou for the kind comments

[@jmh70]

Hi Hambini Many thanks for this very informative video. Have I understood you correctly in that you loctice the bearings into the cups as well as applying to the cups prior to installing into the shell? I've been plagued with creaking from the bb on my Supersix Evo HM. Just watched this and it's made me determined to solve the problem once and for all. Thanks

[@Hambini]

Hi, yes if you go for loctite to both bearings and cups. Also remember the activator, the activator is important when using the loctite on non metallic components.

[@douglasnast6257]

How is the crank attached to the inner bearing surface? We go to all this trouble to tightly fit the outer bearing surface to the shell by screwing or interference, but it seems like the crank just sits on the inner bearing and isn't really attached to it. Can you clarify please?

[@pashaxodessa]

Opinions about good old square taper bb ? Is it a good option, if I do not mind the weight penalty ? Thank you

[@joseramoninigo4034]

Hi, I have an Orbea Terra with a PF30 (46x68) shell and the FSA BB cups installed on it have been replaced twice so far. The creaking does not stop with a new pair. As I won't be replacing them by another identical set, I have wondered which ones to install in order to replace these and eliminate the creaking. Do you think those with the central sleeve threaded so each side cup is attached to the other work better than standard press-fitted PF30? Thanks in advance.

[@cthulpiss]

No drawings available anymore? Not even the bearings pushers? A pity.

[@brianwoods2998]

Thanks, I think you may have the solution to my issue. I have a 2018 Cannondale Synapse and I want to fit Absolute oval chainrings, However, the original Cannondale BB30 setup with Cannondale cranks don't have enough tolerance and my LBS believe any flex would result in the chainrings coming into contact with the frame (as if I could ever have enough strength/power to create flex ha). So would changing out the original BB30 for your BB or the Rotor allow me to move to Shimano cranks with Absolute Black oval chainrings?

[@burronorteno]

What is your opinion on T47 BB shell?

[@popitn2nd]

Sir thank you for this Video. I have multiple question about this PF30. This is the current technology that Cannondale using right now on their Supersix evo Hi mod bikes. To be specific. Cannondale uses Part # KP197/SRM if you google this you will see exactly the parts and what comes with the bearing kit. This kit come with aluminum shell cups to hold the bearing in the BB. My concern is.. i have not found a tool or anyone demonstrating of removing of the shell cups with the bearings. Nor have i seen the right tool for it. I'm not a big fan of tool being used to tap out or hammer out the bearings for it can ruin the tolerance of the bottom bracket. My question with this particular situation....Once the bearing goes out on the PF30, does the shell cups need to be replaced along with bearings? Or only the bearings? My other question is when installing this part # KP197/SRM on the BB, which we know that cannondale have the aluminum shell cups on this kit. Do i use the activator and loctite on the aluminum shell cups? Lastly, how do you remove the shell cup if they need to be removed or replaced with out using the hammering method. Please link me up a tool for this if you have a source where i can get this. Or if you can show us a vid. Thanks! sorry this is too long. Thanks in advanced!

[@Hambini]

Apologies for the delay, I missed your message. The puller and the sleeve need to be appropriately sized but they will fish anything out. For the Other questions, the cups can usually be reused but the bearings need to be replaced. Activator would not be required for an aluminium on aluminium joint. Activator is only needed in carbon frames. Hope that helps Hambini

[@willwong4804]

The user manual of my bike (specialized epic) specifically ask to use epoxy when installing the PF30 BB, which is the reason why I'm sooo reluctant to service this component. I can imagine how difficult it gonna be to remove and how messy when reinstall......

[@Hambini]

Are you sure it's epoxy? that seems pretty drastic

[@willwong4804]

Hambini Yeah. And it's not regular epoxy, they recommend to use 3M DP420, industrial grade stuff which has super high shear & peel strength (T_T). Google keyword (PF30 epoxy) for the long-lasting discussion of such method. Pleas make a video using your dummy BB to give us more information regarding how, if possible, to remove, install, pro, con etc. Many thanks!

[@karlroszko]

Your videos are excellent, I've just started subscribing. A question if I may... I have a cannondale supersix evo with a BB30 and I'm soon going to replace the standard FSA cranks with dura Ace cranks. I have no idea what standard bearings/bb cannondale have put in there (or the bike shop), do you think it would be worthwhile just getting some decent bearings and changing all that out at the same time as removing the cranks? If so do you have a recommendation?

[@Hambini]

Hi Karl, If you are going from BB30 to Shimano, you have to bridge down from 30x68mm wide shell to 24x90mm. You can use a dedicated bottom bracket or you can use delrin adaptors to bridge the gap. If you are going to change the bearings, I would recommend you use NTN, SKF, NSK or FAG. If you are in the US, Timken might be easier to obtain. I specify NTN bearings in Jet engines as my default but the other brands are also good. FSA have some bearings which use green seals, these are rebranded chinese bearings and they are of poor quality. I would not recommend swapping the bearings out unless you have a reason to. Changing them out because the NTN bearings have lower friction coefficient is not worth it as the difference is small. Changing them out because they feel gritty or have worn is a good reason. Hope that helps Hambini

[@karlroszko]

Thanks so much Hambini, shortly after posting my comment I watched your 25min video that demonstrates the whole process of going from a BB30 to Shimano crank on your Cervelo. I will do exactly the same thing as what you have done. I will almost definitely buy one of your bottom bracket assemblies also. Its very srtange that the designers of BB30 would move the bearings inward, wouldn't that just increase moment forces from the cranks into the bottom bracket? I would assume that the closer you can get your bearings to the crank arm, the better for stiffness and reducing those moment forces.

[@davidobrien8438]

​@@karlroszko BB30 was designed to give road cyclist two things they keep clamoring for: (1) narrow as possible "Q-factor", and (2) something for all those cyclists that consistently have "heal strike" on their crank arms, marring them up. BB30/PF30 addresses these two desires. Now there is much disagreement with the buying public's sensibility in focusing too much on narrow Q-factor without mapping it back to a body dimension or measurement. So the narrow BB width was the design trade-off BB30 inventors made. True or not, they also believed they could make up the stiffness difference using a larger diameter aluminum (vs. skinnier steal) spindle.

[@MP48]

do you manufacture Bottom Brackets for the Cannondale Scalpel Ai (PF 30A- 83 )?

[@airguillo31]

hey Hambini, so by using the cups or adapters to fit the shimano cranks are you losing more power if you use an integrated BB? or loses are minimal? how many watts or % would you approximately lose with the cups?

[@dmitryhetman1509]

not much, if it squicks then you losing power

[@motoresruedas7357]

Hi.. I'm wonder if I can use bb30 pf Crankset on my frame that is just bb30a. Can you help me explaining that please

[@G4ogami]

Any chance of a Hambini PF90 GXP BB? My Trek Madone 9 needs your help. Happy to be a guinea pig.

[@Hambini]

Oh dear. drop me an email and I will see what I can do! Thanks Hambini

[@tl924]

What is a 92mm width PF30?

[@chrismad1344]

Exist any adaptor for BB30 to 24mm crank set?

[@kirynkokos5751]

1 advise: press 1 bearing/cup at a time

[@sufyansaleem9771]

One question what is to stop the bearing from pushing through from the non drive side, there seems to be little to stop that?

[@Hambini]

the interference fit will hold it.

[@TheUnrevealer]

I got a PF30 carbon bike with carbon shell. Cups are 2 piece aluminium Campy Power torque. Aftet 50-100 km ride right cup works its way out of the shell by some 2-3 mm, clunking on harder right pedal downpress. Also chainrings move a bit to the right affecting front deraileur operation. It happened already third time in a row after repressing cups/reinstalling crankset. Is this is a clear indication of poorly manufactured frame which needs warranty replacement, or maybe some chance that installation was improper? Retaining compound was not used in any of case...

[@Hambini]

It's more likely that your frame has some sort of issue. That sounds more like misalignment given that it happens after a period of time. If you can get it scanned, then it will tell you for sure.

[@TheUnrevealer]

@@Hambini thanks for your input, very apreciated. The bike now given to Bike shop for fixing this as it is under warranty anyway, only 400 km ridden so far. Will see what manufacturer will do about it..

[@wheeljoesanchez1188]

help me please may i know the right size of spindle of demo 8 2011 model meduim size 27.5 pf30 length size may i know

[@BryanJacksonLives]

I came here to learn how to stop my Stumpjumper PF30 from creaking. I'm leaving with a plan to never buy another frame with a BB30 or PF30 bottom bracket. oh, and, holy crap that loctite is expensive. $62 for the pair shipped from Grainger for the smallest bottles.

[@Hambini]

you should be able to get it cheaper than that! you can probably blame the constant quay to make things cheaper for all of this!

[@BryanJacksonLives]

Hambini Performance Engineering what do you think about bbinfiniti. they seem to be selling a bb very much the same as what you made yourself.

[@Hambini]

My opinion of them on a business level is poor. They threatened me with legal action about a patent infringement claiming that I had infringed their US patent. I pointed out I was in the UK and then put a video out stating words to that effect and that I would expose their business practices along with an open invitation for them to take legal action against me. They then decided to back down and apologized for giving me the hassle. For an out fit that was the result of a kickstarter campaign I find it ethically unacceptable. From a technical perspective, I have never used their products so I cannot comment but there are some fundamental differences between Hambini and BBinfinite: 1. Hambini units are hand made and not made by a computer code. Hand made allows the machinist to account for tool wear and final tolerances remain the same. That's not possible with a computer program as there is no feedback 2. Hambini units do not have a centre sleeve 3. Hambini units do not require an air hammer and an air compressor to remove. 4. Hambini units do not use Chinese bearings or bearings that are made to a standard that is only popular in fidget spinners and skateboards.

[@BryanJacksonLives]

I did not realize that Hambini made the BB that you showed in the video. I thought that was a one-off you made. I apologize for my ignorance. I'll take a look at your solutions as well. Thank you for the information and the video.

[@willwong4804]

The manual of my 2014 Epic describe the procedure of installing PF30 BB must involve using epoxy between cup-frame and cup-bearing. Perhaps that's how the OEM solve the creak. Consider to change the BB using the "wet" method prescribed by Specialized.

[@Matt-uf2nc]

Really great videos, keep it up.

[@Hambini]

Thankyou!

[@dioright]

i just notice that you stand on knees. painfull probably...

[@TommyTheSurfer1]

You video are very good, thank you! I wonder how do you restain lateral movement for your self made one piece bottom bracket? Do you glue it in the frame?

[@Hambini]

The interference fit is enough to hold it.

[@Jose__Manuel]

when you take out the loctitte I knew for myself that pressfit a BB30 bottom bracket is trash. Best regards.

[@mas3ymd]

The bottom line is that the bb30 and (especially) the pf30 standards are unquestionably the single-most idiotic designs ever to come to bicycling (even more so than the integrated headset). They've done nothing but create problems. The claimed advantages are a bunch of bullshit. No one has ever proven any stiffness advantage of thicker spindles.

[@Hambini]

I'd agree for the most part. With regards the thicker spindles, a 30mm axle will be stiffer than a 24mm based purely on geometry. Would the end user be able to tell the difference - I doubt it, Lots of people win grand tours riding Shimano and they use 24mm

[@mas3ymd]

Hambini Performance Engineering Wider diameters don't always equate to more stiffness. The wall thickness and materials used, for one, makes a difference. Furthermore, the plastic bearing cups can (and probably do) compress under load, which reduces stiffness of the overall system. I use metal cups for my pf30 frames. Lastly, it's important to remember that the only portion of the spindle whose stiffness matters is that protruding outward behind the bearings. The stiffness of the spindle medial to the bearings doesn't make a difference - perhaps there's some advantage in torsional stiffness, but I can't imagine this being anything more than minuscule at best. The bottom line is that these bicycle companies probably don't test their products scientifically to assess whether their designs have the desired effect, and the end result is a number of solutions in search of problems.

[@Hambini]

You are right, my comment was referring to the polar moment of inertia and second moment of area of the two sections. All other things being equal if you make the axle diameter larger, it will become more stiff. 24mm to 30mm is a factor of 1.25, if you cube it, you get 1.95, so theoretically a 30mm spindle is almost twice as stiff. However as you correctly point out, stress finds it's way to the weakest points (probably the cups) and the increase in stiffness is not worth having - you may as well have had the lighter 24mm axle.

[@CanIHasThisName]

The one advantage, really, is versatility. Once you have a BSA frame, that's it. It's BSA forever. With PF30, you're able to convert to pretty much anything, including eccentric BBs. And there's also a song for all those people who have managed to strip their BSA threads :)

[@essex__rider]

Who is this young chap? Where’s the Hello? And also, where is the blanket???

[@errikoespinoza2133]

Niner rlt frame pf30 with rotor bottom bracket creaking ,same issue with kcnc bottom bracket 🤬🤬🤬

[@bosco2814]

could u tell me how to uninstall the adapter?

[@Hambini]

There is a video for it, have a look on the product page for the particular BB.

[@edscoble]

Can you please make your content accessible by adding closed captioning?

[@johnurtu7844]

Removing a "glued" PF30 without destroying the frame? To Glue or not to Glue? I agree that "gluing" the cups to the frame (BB shell) and the bearings to the cups will certainly help to reduce creaking issues. Looking 1-2 years down the line, when the time comes to replace the bearings or the entire BB, will the cups or bearings be removable without destroying the frame? Using a glue essentially "welds" the cups into the frame. Most PF30 frames do not have a flat, parallel surface, with a diameter greater than the outer flange of of the PF30 cups, designed into the BB shell area. This renders "press type" tools for useless for removal and results in the only way to remove the cups is "pounding" out from the inside. This a VERY BAD way to remove a glued-in, pressed-in structure from a $5,000 frame. If the cups are glued in, this may make their removal impossible, or at best very difficult. In light of this, is it realistic to believe that you can assure a quiet, creak free BB assembly WITHOUT gluing? Overall the whole PF30 concept seems bankrupt from the outset. Too many pieces, with too many surfaces pressed into each other, all ripe for creaking and squeaking with bearing cup bores misaligned on several planes. You have noted on this and other videos, that bike companies do a notoriously poor job manufacturing a carbon frame with a BB shell that is aligned on all planes and outside end surfaces. Also given that the crank spindle is indeed "straight" over time will it not try to straighten out the miss alignment, thereby causing movement of all the cups/bearings thusly creating noise/creaks and premature bearing failure? Any insight, advice or comment welcomed.

[@fendermon]

@RollinRat Good rant Rollin. When fixing a high end bike involves a tube of glue.....lord help us.

[@fendermon]

@RollinRat You could write a book. Not kidding at all. Consumers (me included) have been trained to think expensive is better. Having said that, why wouldn't a reamer be used to finalize the BB hole after molding? It doesn't seem that hard.

[@fendermon]

@RollinRat It's a shame the consumer has to do the deep dive to see through their tricks. That's why I appreciate guys like you spreading facts. I will used threaded frames due to, in particular, your (and a select few other's) well crafted rants, thank you :)

[@fendermon]

@RollinRat I appreciate all the guys at my local shop and mechanics for sure. I definitely steer business their way, and treat with well deserved respect. Now get going on that book :) Cheers

[@fendermon]

@RollinRat Happy new year. Good riddance 2020 :) Cheers

[@ronrankin8727]

great info. Wish you were my neighbor heh heh.

[@Hambini]

No you don't. you would hate the noise

[@havefunandbikestuffOver40]

Hi

[@michaelallan108]

With your one piece BB shell, can you explain why the retention is from one side only + friction? I have no doubt it works better than STD or aftermarket, I'm just interested as to why you believe it (your system) wouldn't benefit from a positive retention on both sides? Cheers

[@Hambini]

It's a good question. The retention is a radial interference. The position is governed by the axial stop which is the flange. On a multi piece BB, there is no link between the two sides so the stop is required on both sides. On a one piece, the two sides are linked so it only requires one stop. That flange is not there too stop the bottom bracket falling out

[@michaelallan108]

@@Hambini to help my mechanically minded (not engineering educated) brain. The explaination for the two piece token BB I just fitted having two axial stops is simply for positioning in the frame and doesn't (generally or by design) offer any benefit to that system? Just feels counterintuitive (to me) that a second stop wouldn't add any benefit.... But I'm not the engineer obviously 🤔😆 Cheers and thanks

[@Hambini]

@@michaelallan108 If you took the extreme example where there was no axial flange and basically a tube, you could push that tube in and there would be nothing to locate it. On a two piece, each of the tubes needs to be located hence the stop. On a threaded for pushfit (like a wheels mfg or praxis thread) the stops are there to tension the threads - it's the tension that holds it in.

[@Rusty-Metal]

Too bad you are not into suspension, hydraulic brakes and drivetrain. Oh the industry horror of those items.

[@31acruz]

THUMBS DOWN FOR ME, I THINK YOU TOOK WAY, WAY, TOO LONG TO EXPLAIN SOMETHING SO SIMPLE. A SIGN OF INSECURITY. DO BETTER.