Philip Kapleau Was GREAT! But What is a Roshi?

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[@tteravai]

My former teacher, who is a dharma heir in the Kapleau lineage, once gave a talk where he addressed the fact why Kapleau didn't have dharma transmission. In the talk he told that the real reason was that Yasutani, Kapleau's teacher, insisted that his student Eido Shimano would be placed in Rochester as an assistant teacher. Kapleau didn't want Eido Shimano to come to Rochester, because he had met Eido and he did have a bad feeling about him. Yasutani wasn't pleased for Kapleau rejecting his wish, and refused to give him inka because of this. Just wanted to add this story to the soup.

[@HardcoreZen]

Interesting reason. If it’s true, Kapleau was right!

[@TYPHON2713]

​@@HardcoreZenI trained for 12 years in the Soto tradition, and practiced shikan-taza. But when it became time to actually find a sangha and teacher, the only center that offered that in my area was a Sanbo Kyodan center. I've read 3 Pillars of Zen, and disliked the emphasis on enlightenment and counting breaths. Other then that, they practice the same way the Soto center I attended does, only adding koan practice as well. At this Sanbo Kyodan center NOBODY uses honorifics. The 2 teachers (everyone there actually) Insists on being addressed by their first names. But, I'm curious about what you would do if you were in my position. Having practiced Soto style on your own for 12 years, then finding the only place that offers sesshin, dokusan, and weekly zazenkai was Sanbo Kyodan. Would you go? Should I go...?

[@osip7315]

its all about money, yasutani was miffed kapleau didn't cut him in for kapleau's book royalties (3 pillars of zen) which were substantial, much more interesting is the fight that went on that got toni packer expelled, brutal !

[@scottruplin]

Exactly right, I trained at the Rochester Center long ago, your comments are spot on. Shimano was a dangerous man.

[@psyche599]

I think this means that Master Roshi from DBZ was a transmitted zen teacher

[@Schnabelhund]

In Japanese, he's called Muten Roshi, which translates to Master Muten. "Master Roshi" really is nonsensical, haha! Same for "Master Shifu" from Kung Fu Panda, since shifu is Mandarin Chinese for master.

[@swamification]

Handsome Brad Warner Roshi has quite a ring to it! 😂

[@osip7315]

stop watching "dramas" they distort your sense of reality. as a side note, being ugly is a transmission requirement

[@1213141516171897]

It would be a great gag to put it as his name on his next book. Please do!

[@sekauffmanpa3]

Brad, Three Pillars of Zen was certainly one of the first books I read back in 1978. It reinforced the enlightenment model that drove me thru the next 30 years. As I have previously written to you, the quest led to some pretty dark places in the quest for the "peak experience". I hope others did not make the same mistake. Gassho, Stephen

[@Teller3448]

"the quest for the "peak experience". Kensho turns us towards the fundamental reality that isnt moved by ups and downs....peaks and valleys.

[@BuddhismByKev]

I’ve met a number of people, just through living ordinary life, who were most assuredly Zen masters. Though they themselves perhaps didn’t know it. I’ve also studied Zen at Zen Studies Institute in NYC and met real Zen Masters. And they were notably mediocre. So I don’t think it means too much at the end of the day. And if it doesn’t mean too much, people should just call themselves what they want.

[@Stevie_tha_tooth]

I can relate as this happens many times in martial arts. I train jiu jitsu and there’s lineage when a black belt promotes another person to black belt. (Example: Gracie family brought Jiu Jitsu to America. Our teachers lineage goes Gracie>Gurgel>Garcia>Ables>Lyons…the last being my teacher Chelsah Lyons). One black belt to another. Many times people will open Jiu Jitsu schools and put Gracie all over the mats but never set foot in a Gracie gym. But if you check their lineage you quickly discover they trained from Bobby who gave classes out of his RV and never seen or trained with a Gracie.

[@John-uw7wd]

A succession of Brad clarification videos that inadvertently offend the followers of another two lineages on top of the last offence

[@zenmite]

I trained at the Rochester Zen Center for a few years back in the 1970s. I was not a formal student of his, but rather of his chosen successor at the time, Toni Packer. Kapleau never called himself Roshi that I know of. His students insisted upon using the title. As someone mentioned, it was likely the editor or publisher who insisted on the Roshi part to boost sales. I watched Brad's interview with CNN years ago. Brad 'allowed' CNN to introduce him as a 'zen master'. Brad did not correct CNN. Allowing yourself to be called 'zen master' seems at least as icky as Roshi. Philip Kapleau was a fantastic guy, even though I disagreed with him on a number of points. He came to Georgia and spent a month or so with a friend of mine who had just lost his son to cancer.

[@HardcoreZen]

There’s a difference between a quick interview (less than a minute, I think) on tv & three books in multiple editions on shelves for decades. It does seem like Kapleau was a genuinely good guy.

[@osip7315]

toni packer went to his funeral reluctantly, she really felt burnt by the way he treated her prior to her "expulsion" and being somewhat acquainted with what went on, i am not surprised

[@zenmite]

@@osip7315 Did you speak directly with Toni at Kapleau's funeral? Toni and P.K. had reconciled several years before his death. He even visited the Springwater Center. I never heard Toni say anything about being hurt or angry about their split. P.K. helped her make the transition to her own center---she was not expelled. She told P.K. (and the sangha) that she didn't feel she could continue to teach within the framework of the R.Z.C. She and I had several personal discussions about the reasons for the split. She became more iconoclastic after reading and listening to J. Krishnamurti. P.K. and the Zen Center had a decidedly 'religious' take on Zen. I heard P.K. and one of the monks say that the Mahayanna Bodhisatvas were not only symbolic, but actual, real entities

[@osip7315]

@@zenmite i didn't go to the funeral, but i did hear her honest opinion on the subject earlier, she was quite capable of putting up a "front" rather than expressing her real views and btw kapleau told her to leave, she was very adverse to social friction because of her wartime experience.

[@zenmite]

@@osip7315 Cool. I wonder if we know one another? I was a member at springwater for several years after leaving RZC.

[@shaneatkinson617]

This is probably hard for Westerners to understand. In Sufism/Islam, you don't get to call yourself a Master or Shaykh (in the spiritual sense). There is also the idea of the silsilah/isnad or chain, which connects you to the previous teacher, which is usually written. They give you ijaza, a license to teach, or idhn, the permission to lead people on the spiritual path. There is also the idea that it is dangerous for you spiritually if you make claims to be an inheritor to a spiritual lineage. Many Sufis in the West who went off track have a tenuous connection to tradition and didn't actually receive transmission and permission to teach.

[@HardcoreZen]

Interesting! So it seems like they have a similar system to Zen.

[@desmondmccabe8321]

but lots of them seem to call themselves shaykh - or allow themselves to be called shaykh - and they seem to insist on 'lineage' - are you thinking of the likes of schuon among those in the west? - i'm just interested (but do have doubts about the so-called 'traditionalists' or perennialists on account of their apparent elitism)

[@Andy-vh3ns]

Sadly in this day and age it seems Brad, but people don't want to either hear the full story or understand the full story. They would rather just have an emotional reaction to stuff online so they can rant. I listened to the whole video yesterday and you were not putting down Kapleau Roshi as practitioner, but rather pointing out the issue around is authorization as a teacher. Shit, anyone can be a teacher -- because wipes their own ass, they can be a teacher to other of doing just that. I think people need to chill out a bit and first listen before going all nutty.

[@zfid]

I suspect Brad knows exactly what he is doing.

[@willholman6124]

Hey Brad love this series

[@JimTempleman]

Lineage (outside of bloodlines) derives from the tradition of apprenticeship, the traditional way of transmitting knowledge, when the majority of people were illiterate. It is true that medical surgeons maintain the tradition of apprenticeship, because extensive oversight is required. How many Roshi spend a lot of time watching their students teach? (I bow to those who do.) And that brings us back to the old observation that the best students do not always make the best teachers.

[@elzoog]

I met Philip Kapleau in May of 1984 (before I met Tim McCarthy) when I was living near Mantua OH. His book "The Three Pillars of Zen" was one of the books on Buddhism you could borrow from the Ravenna public library. It was my first real life experience with zen. I asked him the stupid question of "How close am I to enlightenment." and he simply silenced the question. My father was not happy because I turned down doing overtime work on a Saturday that week. But, if I did overtime work that week, I wouldn't be talking about it today, would I?

[@HardcoreZen]

You met Philip Kapleau? I AM NOT WORTHY!!!!

[@elzoog]

@@HardcoreZen Not only that Brad, but when I attended his talk, he forgot what a certain master said in one of the koans, and I was able to tell him what he said from memory (I read books on zen and had memorized that one). Philip Kapleau was impressed and asked me if I wanted to come up an finish teaching the class. So hell yeah, even though I no longer remember the exact koan he was referencing, you are not worthy! Similar thing happened to me when I was at the Cleveland Buddhist temple and Eido Roshi was a visiting teacher. He asked a question about a "Taoist" poem which (I still remember) was which line in the poem is the most problematic. I immediately answered that the poem says that what it is describing is nameless, yet gives it the name "The Tao" which happened to be the correct answer. So Eido said that I won some calligraphy thing he was passing out to whoever could answer the question. However, Rev. Ogui put a stop to it by saying that we shouldn't honor students who are too intellectual.

[@JimTempleman]

@@elzoog Great stories!

[@kashnomo]

I wanted to show my support for “Handsome Brad Warner” on the book covers.

[@TedRandomGamingChannel]

I found your mention of Toni Packer quite interesting, and was prompted to do more reading about her. I enjoy your videos, Brad, but honestly I do not understand the purpose of much of the complicated zen/buddhist philosophy you talk about. I understand (somewhat) the purpose and potential benefits of meditation. It sounds like Packer went somewhat in the direction of eschewing the traditional trappings and beliefs to focus more directly on the meditative aspect? I would like to hear more sometime your thoughts on the role of meditation in zen versus the more intellectually-oriented (writing, discussing, philosophy, etc.) side of zen.

[@WorldCrafterPrime]

I would buy a shirt that said: Thrill Seeker seeking Handsome Roshi

[@elzoog]

That's almost worth buying the shirt and giving it to Brad as a gift!

[@HardcoreZen]

HA!

[@deborah3783]

I would buy that merch. 😂

[@accademiaoscura7870]

There's (obviously) a lot of complexity and confusion around this issue, for multiple reasons. For example, The Sanbo Kyodan, as an organization didn't really exist in its final structured form yet when Kapleau was studying with Yasutani, and Yasutani was often criticized (later) as having been getting a bit old and erratic in his later years, leading to questions about his method of giving out Inka. Secondly, there's the difference between Soto and Rinzai approaches to Zen training, and what "Inka" means in Rinzai. Yasutani's teacher Harada Daiun Sokaku, straddled both Rinzai and Soto, but remained officially Soto, meaning he could not receive Rinzai Inka , even though he had technically achieved the level of Kensho realization necessary - and here is the crux of the issue: In Rinzai, Inka is an outward formal recognition that a student has had an inner awakening as determined by the Teacher...So one could argue, that it's the realization that matters, so that even if one fails to get the document for whatever reason... if the level of (Kensho) awakening is there, then the document could be viewed as irrelevant. SO Harada Daiun Sogaku, began teaching a Koan curriculum, and issuing his own form of hybrid Soto / Rinzai Inka, based on Koan (kensho) realization, despite not officially having a Rinzai Inka to do so. Kapleau effectively did the same thing... following the pattern set up by his teacher's teacher, he too failed to get the document (Inka) but nonetheless went on to teach, based on his having had the inner awakening experience, which Inka is only the outward expression of. This is of course in sharp contrast to pure Soto - which is highly bureaucratic, and views "Inka" more like a kind of "college Degree" which one attains by having completed a formal liturgical training program, but which in mainstream Soto, has no relation to any kind of inner awakening experience or "kensho" of any kind.

[@benhorner8430]

Do you think there is some value in the certification process? (It seems like you probably do, I'd be interested in hearing that. :) )

[@fhoniemcphonsen8987]

Hey handsome, don't know if you'd be interested, but Remco has a new fretless video that's pretty cool.

[@billycrows]

People probably got mad a the “phony” moniker in the title; and being lumped in with ‘Master Rama’. My local center is in Kapleau’s lineage; I wouldn’t bother to go because of the hypochondria and the fact that you must pay for an orientation before you can sit with the sangha in person. That said, Three Pillars of Zen was the first book I read on the subject, and I liked it as an introduction.

[@bernardjohnson8093]

Keep ‘keeping it real’, Dude.

[@beebobalula]

The word 'rōshi' is short for 'row ship', which means captain. So rōshi means captain 😇

[@JimTempleman]

Regarding Philip Kapleau: How do you know that it wasn't his publisher who insisted on calling him handsome?

[@HardcoreZen]

They won’t do something like that without the author’s explicit and clear consent.

[@JimTempleman]

​@@HardcoreZen And you believe that held true back in 1966. -That's reassuring.

[@HardcoreZen]

@@JimTempleman Probably.

[@JimTempleman]

Once upon a time the criteria for Buddhist transmission was to verify that the student had reached enlightenment. But those days have long since passed. Now transmission seems to be associated with a permission to teach, or to set up one's own temple, or to publish books using the title Roshi. Was the form of transmission related to enlightenment ever a requirement for teaching, rather than for establishing a traceable line of enlightened masters? Buddha asked Ānanda to teach prior to Ānanda's enlightenment. This whole topic is one sticky wicket!

[@zfid]

'Sticky wicket'...a very English phrase, does that translate into American?

[@JimTempleman]

@@zfid Well then just think of it as a sticky thicket.

[@zfid]

@JimTempleman I think you elucidated the problem very succinctly but was merely amused by the idiom. Indeed there are many phrases in cricket which can apply to situations in life and have the advantage of being slightly oblique which offers a 'feel' rather than an exactitude. "Corridor of uncertainty" comes to mind

[@JimTempleman]

@@zfid My mum was originally British, but dad was America & I was raised around Washington DC. But its funny how much my mother's vocabulary seeped into my own.

[@Teller3448]

"Once upon a time the criteria for Buddhist transmission was to verify that the student had reached enlightenment. But those days have long since passed." Yes...Buddhism in Japan is all but dead and has been since the Meiji Restoration in the late 1800s. There was a movement called the 'haibutsu kishaku' which led to the destruction of thousands of Buddhist temples and the expulsion of countless monks. The government deliberately tried to destroy the religion in favor of State Shinto...and they succeeded. In China, something similar happened with the rise of Communism. But there is a resurgence going on with temples being re-built by Chinese communities all over the world...even in Canada. Look up the 'Wutai Shan Buddhist Garden' in Ontario. Its truly gigantic!

[@B.Hordiienko]

Loved it but 3 Pillars of Zen was a bit confusing for me when I read it 30 years ago. Incidentally, Rochester Zen Center is about the only place I think a person can go to apply for ordination. Which is great, but somehow odd. Another great video Brad! ❤You’re a handsome guy!

[@notarabbit1845]

I don’t mean to take the Catholic priest analogy too seriously but I’ve been wondering about this. In Catholicism (I used to be a Catholic monk) the claim is that priestly ordination is conferred in a line of succession (called apostolic succession) and the ritual itself causes an “ontological change” on the ordained. I thought zen ‘s system was more based on the actual experience and learning? Or is what you’re describing about transmission a similar claim made by zen about the ritual itself conferring some special thing on someone? Also is it only transmitted teachers that can do things like Jukai or ordination?

[@DavidEarthflame]

No, sounds like you gave your Rochester Zen Center talk in the Buddha hall, not the zendo. That hall is used for many things when not for big ceremonies. The center is pretty vibrant, not sad. Please look up Chapin Mill retreat center, where we now hold our Sesshin.

[@HardcoreZen]

I'm glad to hear that! It looked to me like a lot of permanent fixtures for yoga practice had been added and took up most of the room where I spoke.

[@josephmayshark5715]

An old friend from the Rochester Zen Center brought your videos to my attention. I'm going to add my two cents (or 1 cent) to this. My main point is that I don't think you know enough about what went on at the Rochester Zen Center to be tallking about it like this. I was a Philip Kapleau student (but by no means an outstanding one!) from 1970-1980, went to many sesshins. I liked Toni Packer's approach better (in the beginning) and went with her for 4 years or so after the schism. (She noticed that I wasn't very interested in koans and said I didn't need to do any more if I didn't want to, so I didn't. And this was fine. But when she totally quit Zen I lost interest. This is a long and complicated story). We in the hoi polloi sangha in Rochester heard various stories about the split with Yasutani, and I don't really know all the details. It's true that PK didn't fully complete all of Yasutani's requirements. It's also true that Yasutani didn't approve of PK's attempts to Americanize Zen to some extent. (for instance, PK used an English translation of the Prajna Paramita, which Yasutani didn't approve of). There were things I didn't like about the RZC while I was there, but they mostly had to do with it being basicallly too much in line with Japanese Zen monastic training. But I spent many years involved there, and think that overall it was very good for me. PK had his blind spots - I think when he agreed to start a zen center in Rochester he had no idea that he was going to be overwhelmed by a bunch of hippies and people with families, but this is what happened. He was a straight shooter, though. You mention some of the BAD Zen teachers - Eido and Sasaki. Also Maezumi (molesting students, alcoholism), Richard Baker (improprieties with students, financial improprieties) and the Tibetan teacher Trungpa (abuse of students). This all reflected very badly on American Zen. I would also note that Philip Kapleau's Zen was not Soto, but a mixture of Soto and Rinzai, which was initiated by Yasutani, who was Rinzai trained but wanted to introduce some aspects of Soto. I think your fixation of the Roshi thing is pretty bizarre.

[@HardcoreZen]

Thank you! I have no "fixation on the roshi thing." I just think it's good to explain these things.

[@FirstmaninRome]

Well, in my Buddhist book collection, 3 pillars is the one I've bought and giving away the most, and tried to use in zazen. Different strokes for different folks...to move the world, there are certainly better books I have read, but I guess there none I've read on zazen practice Itself that even come close, and his other books are good too.

[@jefffedorkiw1619]

you should call your next book “philip kapleau was a massive phony! (and other hot takes on zen in america)” by handsome doctor brad warner

[@elzoog]

As to the "handshake thing" in spirituality, you can become an ordained minister for free through the Universal Life Church. If however, you want to get a doctorate of divinity degree, they will charge you about $30.

[@The_New_UG]

I only watch for the Venerable Ziggy. I don't know who this Brad guy is. Please stop being stingy and give Ziggy dharma transmission. Ziggy has the Buddha Nature, we can all see it.

[@dr.jeffreyzacko-smith324]

My former teacher, who I really respected and still do, actually interacted with you at RZC (he was very close to Kapleau). I eventually left my former center here in NC for a few reasons … Kapleau’s lineage is essentially dead, and I never felt right about his own use of a title not earned. Plus they (Sanbo) stress koans as practice, which never felt right to me. They also see Soto Zen as the “Cult of Dogen”, and really seem to mostly embrace other Sanbo teachers. I just never felt at home there … as nice as everyone was. But it was a fine place to start!

[@HPD-wv8qu]

Don’t worry about offending people people need to stop their egos

[@stevenbawtinheimer3790]

Handsome!

[@JimTempleman]

Forgive me, but all this made me think of a funny idea of a skit: The Original Buddha doesn't arrive until the modern day, and must rely n KZbin & other social media to spread the word. Of course he would start by founding a physical Sanga around himself to test & verify that he could explain things clearly to his followers. But it's hard to imagine the up hill battle of going global, online, in today's world. So much friction and noise. So little patience, respects (much less reverence), and equanimity. And we call this progress? Good thing he came when he did. As long as I can remember, people in the US would ask themselves, what if Jesus reappeared today, (but not as the final judgement). But that is viewed more in terms of would each person be willing to listen and take what he said to heart. Today, that would be the easy part. Getting through all of the noise & friction would be the hardest part. And so I conclude that we all need to calm down and listen carefully to each other with an open mind. & Brad's channel is far better than most at doing that.

[@Teller3448]

"The Original Buddha doesn't arrive until the modern day..." How many people existed in ancient India...maybe a hundred thousand compared to today's billion. Everything today is diluted by the sheer weight of numbers.

[@JimTempleman]

@@Teller3448 (The sheer weight of numbers) x (Communications at the speed of light) x (The level of networked interconnectivity) =================================== An overwhelming potential for good & bad.

[@deborah3783]

I feel like the Buddha wouldn't do anything to "spread the word". He'll just do his thing on his own and those who learned about what he does and want to follow will have to go seek him out.

[@JimTempleman]

@@deborah3783 I see your point. That's what Bodhidharma did. But what about the Bodhisattva Vow of: "I vow to deliver innumerable sentient beings." Would he be missing out on a golden opportunity? But my real point is about how much more accepting people were back then. We're so inundated with sales pitches that we keep looking for ways to tune people out.

[@Teller3448]

@@JimTempleman "We're so inundated with sales pitches that we keep looking for ways to tune people out." Imagine if there was a law prohibiting advertisers from broadcasting images of anything other than what they are selling. That would cut the pitches by 80% at least.

[@riding_with_marielle]

Sambo's! There was still one in Santa Barbara until 2020, when the name changed in the wake of the George Floyd protests. It was briefly called "Peace and Love" and then changed to Chad's.

[@radzo1675]

I knew there was going to be a sh*tstorm when I saw the title of the video yesterday. You are certainly correct about him not being a transmitted teacher. The title saying "fake Zen Masters" with a pic of Kapleau raised my eyebrow a bit but I chalked it up to a case of clickbait.

[@seanhollandcanada]

On your next book, don't have 'Brad Warner' on the cover. You should use 'Dr. Handsome.'

[@jparkercoleman]

You should go after Shinko Roshi at Great Mountain Zen Center in Berthoud CO. Total phony

[@saffronalgharbi3443]

the lineage transmission (shiho, shisho) is a Chinese cunfucian instituition transfered to Japan and had the only function to transfer the chinese imperial rule, also a totally nonsense in Western culture and way of life

[@HardcoreZen]

Why is it useless to know your teacher's lineage?

[@Teller3448]

@@HardcoreZen "Why is it useless to know your teacher's lineage?" Because any individual teacher (esp in the modern era) has a low probability of being superior to the teachings of the classic source texts. And a high probability of subverting those source teachings with their own personal distortions...like Nishijima's theory of balancing the autonomic nervous system.

[@t.c.bramblett617]

I swear, Zen people are about as snobby and gatekeepy as jazz fans. I say this as a Zen person and jazz fan so no offense intended, banish the thought of any created lmao Just listen to the music. And I get Brad's point, using a title too freely is really a symptom of false advertising in a way, which is the essence of all marketing but obviously with ethical gray areas that are actually gray continents. In that sense, it is a lie.... like all marketing. Even publishers that call books things like "Hardcore Zen". ;) But for real talk... Brad's point about his doctrinal issue with Kapleau really rang true. I hope enough serious students listen to that point, it's really a big issue if you are a follower of Dogen's original Soto. Brad has spoken and written several times about the tendency of Western and popular Zen sources to push the idea of satori as the cosmic orgasm everyone's looking for, and this idea is definitively opposite of what Dogen said. Of course, you need not follow Dogen either but that's the key to what Brad is saying, it's the focus on enlightenment as a goal and improved state instead of what you are doing when you sit.

[@mattrkelly]

not a roshi because of Eido... narcissists are a great stain on any group...

[@larysaistomina6849]

If you learned e.g. programming but did not complete any exam or certification, you still could call yourself a programmer and you would be hired for a job given you pass a technical interview. Because you can, you know, program. I think this is all that matters. Certificates are not a guarantee of skill or virtue. I know where you are coming from regarding calling oneself a Roshi, you would not do this - but Kapleu did for some time. Well, you do not eat meat now, but you probably did for some time in the past. And let me tell you... That's okay both ways.

[@paulengel4925]

So sensitive...

[@sedonasting]

Kapleau is a fence. Jump.

[@BobCarsonsMMA]

So wait, you’re saying you want to fight one of Kapleau’s students?! This has gone too far. I was not the least bit bothered by your video, but you did choose to title it TWO PHONY ZEN MASTERS and proceed to talk about two particular people. It is not crazy to infer that the two people you talked about are the people you were referring to in the title. Was he a phony? Don’t know and don’t care. He said some crazy shit in his books, imo.

[@noahkaufman2013]

I’m only half way through the video but I just want to say FATHER O’MALLY was a DAMN FINE Catholic priest even without ordination he was a better priest than ten Protestants all put together. Just had to get that off my chest lassie. As Will Smith would say, keep O’mallys name out your mouth lad.

[@williamvarado1111]

Best way to apologise is to take it down.

[@Teller3448]

Where's the drama in that???

[@HardcoreZen]

No need.

[@maciejgoralski1744]

you are trump zen