Discussion with A Critical Dragon of Rings of Power: Season 2, Episode 7

[@Snally38]

Thanks as always for the great insight and humor Philip and AP! Watching these discussions has definitely increased my appreciation of the show

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

@@Snally38 Thank you for watching! I’m glad you enjoy our antics! 😁

[@gibranlewis7300]

Commenting to your season finale review with a critical dragon. I really liked the insightful, indepth commentary you both offered. I'm an old school LOTR/Hobbit/Silmarillion loremaster myself, since my childhood when the Rankin+Bass and Ralph Bakshi animated movies were the only major filmic adaptations available. I say, and maintain, that I really like the shifting of Olorin/Gandalf into the 2nd Age, since it will help casual fans to better understand that Gandalf is essentially a guardian Angel who aided the Elves since Elves became a created thing. Regarding Isildur and Estrid, I think your observation, Phillip, was magnificent!!! A betrothal is a sacred oath, and in ancient times, in many ancient cultures, it was treated thus, especially in the fictional cultures Tolkien was representing with the Elves and Numenoreans. That Isildur would be the main accomplice in Estrid violating her betrothal oath shows that he puts the pleasure of flesh above what is right, if he pressure is strong enough, and it is foreshadowing of how he will likewise yield to the temptation of the ring as he yields so readily to the temptation of Estrid's flesh. I also think that her betrothed may end up being the king of the dwimmerburg dead, as he would have a very personal reason for betraying Isildur in the way that Isildur, with Estrid, betrayed him.

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

@@gibranlewis7300 Oh, that’s a great idea about Estrid’s betrothed becoming the King of the Dead! He’s already a leader among the “low men.” I’m glad you enjoyed the musings from AP and me, and it’s good to know there are old school loremasters out there who can assess Rings of Power on its own terms. As you well know, Tolkien never actually settled on much of that lore, and we don’t actually know how he would have felt about everything published from The Silmarillion onward. I’ve enjoyed the take from the show for the most part. Cheers!

[@gibranlewis7300]

@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Thanks so much for the reply!! Re: making assessment of Rings of Power on it's terms, In some areas I'm a purist, lol, but more about the fundamentals than the margins. I generally loved the Jackson movies ( LOTR and the 1st 2 Hobbit movies [ Battle of 5 armies had too many missteps, despite a few great moments, whereas the other movies had many great moments with a few annoying missteps ]). I think some of the changes make PERFECT sense. I love that they shifted Gandalf's arrival into the 2nd Age, because there is no reason why Olorin the Ainu/Gandalf couldn't have arrived then, and LOTS of reasons why he might have come. But, I especially love it ( as a longterm Gandalf fan, who was winning drama contests portraying him when I was 9 lol ) because it will help casual fans better understand that Gandalf is essentially a Guardian Angel who has been aiding the Elves since the Elves first came to be. Tolkien's musing about the Blue Wizard's having come in the 2nd Age makes plain that he realized it would have been fully reasonable for the Istari to have been sent earlier. Certainly Lindon, Arnor and Gondor could have used the wise and mighty Mithrandir in that time when Sauron was overrunning all Eriador. Why would the Blue arrive so far ahead of the others? It's fitting that they still came all around the same time, but an Age earlier ( especially since we know now, from the notes of Tolkien published in The Nature of Middle-Earth, that Olorin was one of those sent to protect the Elves when they first awoke from the fallout and refugee demons coming from the war between Aman/Valinor and Utumno in the Age of the Stars ). I always held a notion that Gandalf's BLUE hat was a parting forget-me-not gift from Alatar, ere the other began his long sojourn in the East and/or South. I don't terribly mind the Balrog timeline being moved up, because certainly the Balrog would have sensed Sauron's presene at a time when that other evil Ainu was so dominant in Middle-Earth, and in the Tale of Years, the Dwarves basically have nor records of doing anything between the 2nd Age and the Balrog's destruction of Khazad-Dum in the 3rd Age. It does effect the Amdir ( or was it Amroth.. ) and Nimrodel tale, as the Balrog's presence panicked a third of the Elves into fleeing Laurelindorinan/Lothlorien, but that could also be moved up, and some of those Elves could still settle near Gondor to mate with Numenorean descendant men, producing the line of Dol Amroth. I DO want to see more of the Balrog being properly portrayed as a VERY SENTIENT demon, not merely some fiery beastie. He should be haunting and harrowing the dwarves spiritually and psychologically like some demon in a Stephen King novel ( think It and the chief vampire of Salem's Lot ), up until the moment of his release ( that Durin II vs Balrog scene was stunning though!! ). : But the Isildur and Estrid mess... I don't think the show runners would give her a fiancee, nor for mere Soap Opera drama. Oaths and Vows are Serious, especially in many ancient cultures, and ESPECIALLY in Tolkien. There is a spiritual aspect and significance to them, and Bridal Oaths especially so. In the Biblical Old Testament/Torah, stealing/cheating with a betrothed woman was seen as being closely akin to full Adultery. That Isildur leaps so willingly into this, as you mentioned seemingly with no second thoughts, is a very darkly telling and foreshadowing view into his character. We can hardly imagine Elendil, who was willing to die rather than renounce the queen, or Aragorn behaving thus. Again, thanks so much for the reply. Hopefully you'll post some of your reviews on twitter. I followed you there in case you do. Cheers, & God Bless.

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

@@gibranlewis7300 I love that you were channeling Gandalf even as a 9 year old! I think Gandalf is one reason I wanted even as a boy to grow a beard. All the best!

[@gibranlewis7300]

​@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy KZbin ate my response ( Doh!! as Homer Simpson would say. I was going to say, I'd be willing to bet that, like me, you had a tendency to collect virtually every staff quality stick you encountered on walks around wooded areas, from childhood to now. lol I only recently stopped, having already a sufficient collection lol. Our current cat of 12 years is named Gandalf, NOT by our design. He was the first and most agreeable cat at the ASPCA shelter when we went looking. PLACED there for us!!! Best to you also. Thanks for the stellar content, and for the replies. God Bless!!!

[@moschi5844]

Thanks for the video, it was a very nice discussion. As always. Listening to you elevates the show for me. I really liked how Callabrimbor got out of the illusion. How he noted the mouse. Something so small and unimportant, something Sauron would never notice or care for. So not something he would pay attention to.

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

That was a clever moment! Sauron does tend to not notice the little people!

[@moschi5844]

@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasyI thought about also making that point. And thought it too much on the nose 😅

[@andreamiller3578]

Sauron created Celebrimbor's own Truman Show

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

@@andreamiller3578 Ha ha! Indeed!

[@andreamiller3578]

Durin failing Elrond was so heart-breaking. I knew it was coming but it still hurt.

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

@@andreamiller3578 Definitely a moment they set up very well. Cheers!

[@ACriticalDragon]

Nemesis! Willst thou foul deeds ever end? 😂

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

@@ACriticalDragon Never! Mwuhahahaha!

[@Crafty_Spirit]

I did not know I wanted to see Elrond kiss Galadriel until I did 😅 Not sure why though. Maybe it's related to my notion that Celebrían is probably the least interesting of Tolkien's Elves, and Arwen for that matter, too. Galadriel and Elrond were supposed to marry at some point in the writings, but Tolkien later invented Celeborn. There's also a text in which Celebrimbor experiences unrequited love towards Galadriel (who there is married to Celeborn). Tolkien did not leave much room for second romances (after your first love) though. Even if Galadriel in the show presumes Celeborn "dead", she should expect him to wait for her in Valinor, a temporary split.

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

I suppose with as long as elves live, there are bound to be relationship issues that crop up during those thousands of years. I don’t know how my wife puts up with me, and it’s only been a few decades! 😂

[@Crafty_Spirit]

@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Tolkien may be naively romantic in that regard :-) By the way, were you familiar with the term Kitchen Sink Drama? It's how Charlie Vickers (Annatar, Sauron) described one way of how he sees the story of Celebrimbor and Annatar as depicted in the series. I have a vague idea, but I didn't before hear of that British film genre.

[@Crafty_Spirit]

@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Your wife would know though 😁

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

@@Crafty_Spirit Never heard of Kitchen Sink Drama, but I’m going to look it up!

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

@@Crafty_Spirit Ha ha! True!

[@superfuss1984]

Seems the Show was made for you! 👍🧐

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

@@superfuss1984 I’m enjoying it for the most part!

[@Paul_van_Doleweerd]

Funny, I heard a rumour that Dr Theme isn't a numbers guy either... 😂

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

@@Paul_van_Doleweerd That is slanderous propaganda perpetrated by the nefarious Professor Fireballs and his minions (aka “researchers”).

[@Paul_van_Doleweerd]

@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy BANANA!

[@thefantasythinker]

So does AP sit in trees to read poetry? Or was that you he was referring to? 😂I am so enjoying these discussions. Thanks guys!

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

@@thefantasythinker Sitting in trees and reading poetry is probably more A.P.’s style. I’ve been known to sit in the odd tree and read the occasional poem, but, being terrible at multitasking, I never do them simultaneously. Cheers, Jarrod!

[@andreamiller3578]

I think this was my favorite episode of this season since it concentrated mostly on one story line and did quite a bit with it. So many great character moments! I thought it was a great illustration of pride leading to destruction--really a theme running throughout the show. The kiss was kind of stupid but it really didn't have any romantic overtones to me. I did feel like the showrunners were trolling a bit, but i can't be bothered to get upset about it. Heh

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

@@andreamiller3578 It was good to see the payoff as several threads converged in this episode. It was well done!

[@pwmiles56]

Funny thing, Tolkien did write an abusive relationship. Saruman and Wormtongue! Down to Wormtongue saying "you made me do it" (murder Lotho). But of course, the theme was appropriate only to such despicable characters.

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

@@pwmiles56 Saruman and Wormtongue: the poster children for dysfunctional codependency.

[@MacScarfield]

«And here's to you, Lady Galadriel! Ilúvatar loves you more than you will know Whoa, whoa, whoa» (I do 100% agree with you take on the kiss, but her being his (future) Mother-in-Law, the joke just wrote itself! 😅Also, the outraged people are clearly not Italian or French!😂) Back to serious mode😅: Celebrimbor’s realization of Annatar/Sauron and Durin having to choose to face his own father above coming to Elrond’s aid: Man! 😢Even knowing the fate of Khazad-dûm, Eregion and poor Celebrimbor (that finger being just the start of his misery and horrific fate!😵⛳️😬), it stung! 😭

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

@@MacScarfield Ha ha ha! I’m sure the elves would be big fans of Simon and Garfunkel. 😂 There were so many painful, tragic, and well orchestrated moments in this episode. Cheers, MacScarfield!

[@SethPlato01]

1:01:41 pause you're welcome

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

@@SethPlato01 Cheers! 😁

[@DoUnicornsRead]

Rings of Power? 🤔 Like, diamonds are a nemesis' best friends?😁

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

@@DoUnicornsRead Exactly! 😂

[@kdf_dudu]

there is no way that you love this show. the amount of mental gymnastics that you guys made to try and paint this show as good is surprising

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

@@kdf_dudu Are you actually trying to tell people what they can and can’t enjoy? I am enjoying Rings of Power. It’s also fine with me that you’re not, assuming you’re even watching it.

[@yurikendal4868]

@@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy Bad faith takes are not enjoying it but shilling for it.

[@semplethings]

I'm actually loving season 2 but I don't have any attachments to the original books so maybe that helps

[@horizon5873]

ref