Phonograph cylinder can be played with piezo-electric transducer.

On an old video, I used a a piezo-eletcric transducer to play an old 78 rpm disc. That video is at • early electric pick up... . Someone wrote in, & asked: could the same technique be used to play a phonograph cylinder. What a good question! The answer is definitey YES; but the system still needs some work! 8^)

[@Karl63601]

Outstanding Norman! So happy to see you again.

[@bixanorak]

Sorry, "One size fits all" message: Thanks a lot and see you again soon! Cheers, Norman.

[@AuroraMills]

I think we were all getting a bit anxious,,,it's been too long my friend! As always, you're a gifted teacher and raconteur!

[@bixanorak]

Sorry, "One size fits all" message: Thanks a lot and see you again soon! Cheers, Norman.

[@Parlophonic]

Dear Norman, it has been far too long since your last video and I have to admit I had begun to fear the worst, but here you are as entertaining as ever; thank goodness! This, your latest presentation, is utterly amazing and I have enjoyed it very much. Please don't leave it so long until your next offering - a few records would do. but please keep posting because you have a certain knack of holding one's attention - a rare commodity these days!! Thank you and here's to the next time!

[@bixanorak]

Sorry, "One size fits all" message: Thanks a lot and see you again soon! Cheers, Norman. Coming up (eventually) a better cylinder player, and recording mechanically, vertical cut, on wax discs. All this has been done; just needs the videos!

[@Parlophonic]

@@bixanorak I hope you are well and enjoying life Norman. Best wishes, Richard.

[@roybo1930]

This is just increasable, and BEAUTIFUL, Sounds GREAT!

[@guitardoug12]

So wonderful, thank you! It is a distinct pleasure and honor to hear sounds of the past. Incredible player too, quite ingenious to say the least.

[@bixanorak]

Thanks! On reflection, I should have taken the output from the transducer (which is very high) through a potential divider to reduce it to a line input level. I shall do better next time! Best regards & take care in the Lockdown! Norman.

[@ralphmills7322]

Seeing your method of producing a glass point reminded me of my high school chemistry class in the 1970's. We were given glass tubing and a gas burner and then told how to cut, bend and draw out the tubing to make the pipettes and other pipes to attach to the flasks and test tubes of the chemical apparatus.

[@jean-paul7251]

Sounds just as good if not better than my edison standard phonograph. Thanks Norman, great video.

[@steverose798]

Great to see you back again Norman.

[@bixanorak]

Sorry, "One size fits all" message: Thanks a lot and see you again soon! Cheers, Norman.

[@leowagner1366]

Bravo! This was a great video. Probably the only one which accurately explains how to make a phonograph needle.

[@bixanorak]

Hi Leo - many thanks! A pity I couldn't show the fitting of the glass point into the tiny tube - could not get close-up focus for video. However, I've just been given some add-on lenses for my camera, so next time it'll be OK... 8^) Cheers, Norman.

[@valerjan1974]

Bravo! I also like to experiment! I love creating tasks for myself, finding solutions and implementation methods. This is real creativity. It's great that you have time for this! Unfortunately in our Urals, Russia has never had such rollers. In my opinion, this is an interesting subject of technology and history. I wish you good health and further creative success!

[@bixanorak]

Sorry, "One size fits all" message: Thanks a lot and see you again soon! Cheers, Norman.

[@hdmuz8]

Reminds me of Glenn Sage long-arm cylinder transfer system - not bad for first time!

[@777fiddlekrazy]

Very VERY COOL! I LOVE HOW COMPETENT AND INGENIUS (likely by necessity) OUR FOREFATHERS AND MOTHERS WERE! BEING A MUSICIAN THE FIRST THOUGHT i HAD UPON SEEING THE "INDESTRUCTABLE" PHONOCYLINDER WAS HOW THE MELOTRON WERE NEVER CREATED LIKE THIS? WHY STILL TO THIS DAY WOULDNT WE HAVE A MELOTRON(very distinctive sound) THAT WOULD BE ABLE TO LOAD UP THESE CYLINDERS AND EVEN CONTROL THEIR PLAY SPEED FOR DIFFERENT EFFECT? WOULD BE A FANTASTIC INSTRUMENT TODAY!

[@bixanorak]

A marvellous concept! Congratulations. I suppose the Hammond Organ was one step along this road - a star-shaped revolving steel disc with so many ponit on it, passing near the core of an electromagnet. Take care, and best regards, Norman.

[@78rpmblog]

Welcome back to KZbin land, Norman, so great to see another video from you, and again very interesting and informative.

[@walterblackledge1137]

Missed your videos, Glad to see you are doing well.

[@jeenkzk5919]

Very nice! It’s interesting to see this stuff work. I also admire your enginuity ! Love hearing personal stories from that era! Nothing better to understand the past than context.

[@bixanorak]

Sorry, "One size fits all" message: Thanks a lot and see you again soon! Cheers, Norman.

[@Roger.Coleman1949]

Brilliant stuff Norman , you remind me of an inspirational teacher when I was at Primary School school aged 10, who was a fanatical enthusiast of clocks, steam power and early sound reproduction and electrical technology .His non-curiculum science lessons were always much anticipated and enjoyed and the knowledge gained has remained with me after nearly 60 years !.

[@bixanorak]

Oh, Great! Thanks, Roger... so pleased to be an echo (however distant!) of one of your formative influences. There are plenty more mini-projects in hand, but must find time for them... Kind Regards & again thanks, Norman.

[@stewartmarshall4112]

Great to see you back in harness and apparent good health. Had feared the worst from your absence. When I first watched your Crystal radio series, proceeding onto valve radio circuits, this was the very first time I began to understand how this stuff actually works despite a lifetime myself of messing about with all this. I am probably not much younger than you are. Wish I had a teacher like you in the old days. Thanks for all your efforts with these brilliant videos. Cheers, Stew from Washington State USA but family from Lincolnshire originally.

[@bixanorak]

Hi Stewart & thanks for writing. Glad you like the stuff! Have a couple of others in the pipeline: a more elaborate home made cylinder player, & also - wait for it - a set-up for mechanically recording speech, vertically cut, on wax discs; which is pretty pointless, but fun! Well, your family couldn't have migrated much further away from Lincolnshire! Some of my grandfather's family went to British Columbia about 1912, & my son re-established contact with them a few years ago - it was great exchanging images &c. All the best to you & yours for 2020, Norman.

[@620film]

Your machine and tonearm tracked wonderfully! Very inspiring....I'd love to make something like this!

[@SusanAmberBruce]

About the glass; it can be contrasted with a black paper to get a clear image. All that small stuff you videoed, you should read up about depth of field (no pun intended) and size of the aperture on the lens which you can actually enforce with a piece of card with a hole in it. And also with small subjects; one does need more light, and your eyes already told you that.

[@frankartieta7483]

Hello :) Damn Good to see you ! You are a member of the few ! Who make really good videos ! Cheerio !

[@area46241]

Fantastic Norman! My kind of genius

[@mspysu79]

Very interesting, I love seeing projects like this, it does seem to work quite well for something that is so quickly put together.

[@RWBHere]

Glad to see you back again, Norman! Thank-you for the most informative video. My father used to teach me how to make things out of glass rod and tube, in the 1960's, but never a stylus. So you've taught me something new. Presumably, you've allowed for the very high impedance of the piezoelectric transducer? For those reading who do not know about these things, some explanation is needed: A valve amplifier, or a FET input stage, would be the simplest options for lowest distortion from a piezoelectric pickup. This kind of transducer might have a peak output of above 1 volt, at an impedance of 10 Megohms or more, but an electromagnetic one would generate a few millivolts at much lower impedance. Connecting the piezo transducer to a low input impedance preamplifier will cause distortion, because the input voltage is too high, resulting in clipping. The frequency response would also be affected by the mismatch. Also, if you use the 'phono’ input of an amplifier, it has filtering, 'RIAA curve equalisation', to account for the low output at low frequencies and higher output at high frequencies of a magnetic pickup. On the other hand, a piezo pickup has a roughly constant output voltage at all audio frequencies. The result is that the piezo pickup will sound worse than it should do, even if amplifier input impedance is correct, because of an equalisation mismatch. One other modification which you might care to try is to extend the tone arm beyond the pivot point and adjust counterweights, to find the best tracking weight for a cylinder. (It can be as high as 100 grams or 3.5 ounces, depending upon the arm and pickup. Compare that to a gram or two for an LP record.) That would minimise pickup distortion.

[@bixanorak]

Sorry, "One size fits all" message: Thanks a lot and see you again soon! Cheers, Norman. (No, I didn't! I do know that crystals are very Hi-Z though...)

[@mrrgstuff]

Excellent work. Very well explained and a nice simple design. I really ought to try to build one of these as I have cylinders I can't play. Thanks 😀 👍

[@robertfenney]

Thanks it is really great to watch you recreate history!

[@oldmaine4314]

Thank you for posting this video and sharing the method of drawing out and mounting a glass Edison stylus. It was great to watch the process! Also, do you have a video of designing your step motor cylinder player? I’ve got an extra bed plate and mandrel from an Amberola and imagined someday I would give it a new life by driving it in a similar manner.

[@robfriedrich2822]

A tangential arm what use to follow the groove could also be used

[@stuartellis2006]

Welcome back dude !! You haven’t been on for a while !! Was getting worried !!! 👍

[@ShellacScrubber]

Wonderful stuff Norman. Thanks for sharing this with us.

[@peterfarmer1592]

Welcome back Norman. Missed you.

[@Tims_Projects]

Thankyou Norman, I enjoyed that very much.

[@bixanorak]

Hi there & thanks for writing. The output from the transducer was extremely high, and I should have just put a potentiometer across the output. Instead, I made the stylus bar longer, to reduce the Mechanical Advantage. How stoopid can you get? 😃 But after all, it was a video done mostly on impulse, so what the heck? 😀 Best regards, & take care. Cheers, Norman.

[@grahamrdyer6322]

I like it but the only trouble is I haven't got any cylinders haha, great to see you Norman.

[@PA2OLD]

Again Norman, a very good video and what a result!

[@raudiobrown]

That was great fun, informative, and involving. Thanks for a great video. Am comfily subscribed now.

[@bixanorak]

Hi, and thanks for writing! One thing I got wrong, was the huge output from the transducer. Because of that, I extended the stylus bar to reduce the modulation. It would have been far simpler to put a potential divider across the output from the transducer... oh well, one cant think of everything! 8^) Again thanks & best wishes during difficult pandemic times. Cheers, Norman.

[@raudiobrown]

Seems to me I saw one fellow writing to the effect that a long tonearm, being a bit flexible, can be more forgiving of slightly warped cylinders. Sounds plausible, within limits--perhaps with a bit more tracking force. All the best!

[@MikeBracewell]

Lovely stuff, Norman. Just discovered you & look forward to watching your videos!

[@torugonza]

Norman please tell me how many RPM does the cylinder rotate?

[@lookoutleo]

Quite amazing it's possible to make a player at all, wow

[@bixanorak]

Thanks for writing. Yes, it's great fun trying out these half-crazy things! 😀

[@lookoutleo]

@@bixanorak so how does the amplifier work? its not a normal audio amp attatched to ceramic cart? and what is an ardueno and how does it control speed?

[@bixanorak]

@@lookoutleo Hi there.The audio ouptput from the transducer was very high, so that it could be put into a 'Line input' of a normal audio amplifier. The output level was probably 100 mV or more! As regards the use of stepper motors & arduino, there are hundreds of videos on KZbin explaining how use them - have a look around - that's how I started. Best regards, Norman.

[@SamHarrisonMusic]

The puck: still better than a Crosley! :p

[@MacEstelle]

Wonderful Norman

[@bixanorak]

Sorry, "One size fits all" message: Thanks a lot and see you again soon! Cheers, Norman.

[@SuperFredAZ]

Very creative, thanks for the lesson.

[@SoddingaboutSi]

First Norman! It plays a treat.

[@BroWCarey]

You do the coolest things, Norman. If I lived near you, I'd be at your house every single day to say what you're doing!

[@bixanorak]

Hi there! Well now, you'd be welcome, 'cos there's so much stuff that's slidin' off the edge of the world - and when it's gone - it's gone! What the heck. Cheers, Norman.

[@SamHarrisonMusic]

I actually think this maybe sounds more listenable than the one with the better needle assembly, because of the natural high and low cut removes a lot of noise from the cylinder! How long will the glass needles last?

[@BrokeMoFo]

I must say the stories of early life from your "neck of the woods" are certainly more tell tale of a camaraderie that is seldom recited in american history, I am jealous sir. Thank you for your history and your intelligence...

[@BrokeMoFo]

On a second note, I am horrified that the youth of today has no appreciation as to where music began and what efforts were taken in to produce such a thing...

[@bixanorak]

@@BrokeMoFo Sorry, "One size fits all" message: Thanks a lot and see you again soon! Cheers, Norman.

[@jhonwask]

sounds pretty good. I like it.

[@a1wireless1964]

Awesome video, what type of glass rod are you using I know you said 5mmm but is there a special kind, borosilicate, Pyrex or what kind.

[@bixanorak]

Sorry, I dunno! Glass rods bought on ebay as 'stirring rods' for laboratory use, dissolving solid in liquides, &c.

[@leowagner1366]

Can I use a standard Edison 0.8 mm 2 minute stylus from an original reproducer instead of making my own?

[@bixanorak]

Aah - no; I don't think that would be a good idea.Sorry, and all that. Making filaments of glass with a blob on the end was a very 'cheap & cheerful' way of getting a simple phonograph, like the Puck, to play. A 'Puck' phonograph was really a toy, & only cost about $2. If you have a genuine Edison stylus, those were made of *sapphire*, not just glass, and are far too valuable to be used up in simple 'fun' experiements! If you want to copy what I did, the point doesn't have to be glass, let alone valuable sapphire. As an inital trial, the tip of a thin wooden cocktail stick would do as starters - ultra cheap, & non-destructive to the cylinder... I bet you it would work pretty well. Good luck in your experiments. Cheers, Norman.

[@michaelventresco4534]

Great work! Thank you for your research. How long does the pivoting arm have to be to remain in reasonable alignment with the grooves? Also, can you tell us the thread pitch of what you used for the lead screw?

[@torugonza]

No hay tornillo de ningún avance ! El brazo es empujado por el surco tal como pasa en un tocadiscos convencional.

[@andrewandrosow4797]

Good work!

[@LupotheButcher]

I just stumbled upon your channel by chance and I'm loving it so far. With regards to this video, I have a collection of cylinders I inherited and no way to play them, so was thinking about trying this out. I have all the bits and pieces already except the glass needle. I do, however, have several brand new 78 diamond styluses. If I can make a method of attaching it to the piezo disk will that work? Thanks and keep up the good work!

[@bixanorak]

Aiee.... thanks for writing, but to *really* play cylinders on a home made device is quite a serious undertaking - my video was a kind of 'fun thing', and the cylinder I was using was a U.S. 'Indestructible', that were indeed very tough & can put up with a lot of abuse. Spend quite a lot of time on looking at this site: www.christerhamp.se/phono/ which has many, many approaches to playing cylinders electrically, and you'll get plenty of ideas on different approaches. You certainly won't be able to use a cheap piezo transducer as I did - it would massacre ordinary wax cylinders. I made a 'serious' electrical cylinder player a couple of years ago, & will try to make a short video of it soon. Best regards, Norman.

[@protocolfree]

well done! keep up the good work buddy!

[@danielkreutzjans7015]

Do you have any tutorials on making piezo electrical translucer and connecting it to a speaker? This is a great video and I want to replicate it to play some old phonograph cylinders my grandpa gave me

[@CMarkulis]

Wouldn't that self-made glass ball be usefull by glueing it onto an old stereo pickup, for playing Pathe records? Cables have to be arranged for Pathe, too. If someone has only a few records, this would be cheaper than buying a special needle for it. By the way, thanks for all your great videos :-) .

[@bixanorak]

Hi there. Well, absolutey, yes - if you got the size right. It would wear quite quicky, but the cost is negligible! You can buy a special sapphire ball, which I did, and found it rather disappointing. I don't have many Pathés myself, though I have other British vertical cut records: Musogram, Neophone, Clarion, Marathon &c & generally my collector friends tend to treat them individually, trying a number of different size styli until we find the best one - which is very often NOT the Pathé special... >8^( OTOH, the big sapphire IS usually good for the biggest Pathés - 14" & 20", but not many peole have rafts of 20"! Good luck, Cheers, Norman.

[@rarestshellac7519]

It's been my experience that the radius of a stylus used for vertically modulated recordings is not near as critical as that for normal laterally cut discs, as long as it's not too large. I recall playing Pathé discs acoustically using a ’soft tone’ steel needle (the very thin ones) inserted UPSIDE DOWN in the soundbox. That is, with the blunt shaft in the groove instead of the ’pointy end’. Now I am not recommending this as a general practice as variables in sound box weight, needle shaft profile record material etc, could all conspire to wreck a precious recording. All Im saying is that it has worked quite satisfactorily for me. However, if you should ever be tempted to try this idea, at least test it out on an unimportant disc first.

[@adrianoragazzo1321]

GREAT entertainment and ALOT of good informations as usual, thankyou ! I have a question please : i've spotted couple radios : a (probably) FT 847 and something that looks like a 2m/70cm ...so what's your callsign if I can ask ? Again thankyou for the lovely videos. De Adriano IZ3SVI

[@joseme447]

Wow!

[@johnsweda2999]

Great, is that the only first electric pickup for cylinder? Why use glass and not a needle? is there an advantage using glass. I suppose it's important to have the cantilever a certain length, different lengths will give you different results how sensitive it is is that right. I suppose if it's too long you could start introducing distortion problems in playback not sure about if it's shorter though just less sensitive. this need to be remastered and recorded for prosperity and quality. I think you could get a good sound out of it I can hear a lot of detail quite amazing how old is that recording. I bet there's a lot of hidden detail can be picked out of the background adding dynamic range as well and expander and active EQ can open up the sound stage. Are people remastering and recording these Old cylinders.?

[@bixanorak]

Sorry, "One size fits all" message: Thanks a lot and see you again soon! Cheers, Norman. Electric cylinder pickups were made way back in 1918, 1919.

[@johnsweda2999]

@@bixanorak short and sweet Norman thanks

[@robertgaines-tulsa]

Did they ever find a way to mass produce record cylinders without having to record each cylinder with a live band?

[@bixanorak]

Hi Robert. Yes, indeed they did. In the 1890s cylinders were brown wax & most were indeed recorded individually! A few years later, they developed a system whereby one *really strong* brown wax could be used as a master record, from which 10, 20 even maybe more, copies could be made using a pantograph. It was finally solved around 1902, when a new technique of electronic metal 'sputtering' came into use. The master wax cylinder was put into a vacuum chamber, & after nearly all the air had been sucked out, the new technique of 'vacuum electrodepostion' was used to deposit a layer of gold on the wax. This could, in turn, be plated onto, & so this 'electrotyping' enabled thousands of cylinders tobe made fronm one single cylinder. Cheers, Norman.

[@MrSpengler1234]

That's brilliant!

[@automatedelectronics6062]

Looks good. The sound quality isn't that bad and with it being acoustically recorded, I couldn't imagine it sounding any better. I probably would have just added the pickup to a regular Edison phonograph. The music library at the University of California, Santa Barbara has a vast library of acoustic recordings which have been electronically recorded to wav and mp3 files.

[@lewallen2897]

I really like this guy as a presenter happened on his lathe video and ended up watching videos I would of had no interest in for over an hour 😂😂👌

[@tarstarkusz]

Can you link to the 78 piezo-electric video? I searched your channel with piezo-electric but it didn't list anything.

[@bixanorak]

Hi there - no problem.... should have put the link in before. Have done so now in description - also here : kzbin.info/www/bejne/nJOqfZ6iaMmsfbs Thanks for pointing out the error. Best regards, Norman.

[@mostlyanimations1469]

What do I do with a steel record

[@mostlyanimations1469]

Nobody has ever seen whats on it

[@josephhager1933]

Awesome video norman love it. Could you do a video on Morse code?

[@bixanorak]

Sorry, "One size fits all" message: Thanks a lot and see you again soon! Cheers, Norman. A Morse video - ah now! That could be fun!

[@Jaiven1]

:( Who whatever dislikes... why??

[@roystonrichards3368]

I assume that the cylinders use hill and dale recording.

[@bixanorak]

Correct, Royston. There's a rumour that one company actually tried a lateral cut cylinder, but it never got anywhere. Cheers, Norman.

[@rarestshellac7519]

Although it would be theoretically possible, maybe with two-minute 100 grooves/inch cylinders and a smaller (4-mill) stylus, I've never read it heard of it being done. Unless we count the ’Phonautograph’ which was inherently lateral only and could record an audio waveform but could not play it back.

[@АнатолийМитрофанов-я5е]

Какая скорость вращения цилиндра фонографа?

[@bixanorak]

Здравствуйте, Анатолий. После 1900 года большинство цилиндров фонографа должны вращаться 160 раз в минуту. Конечно, есть вариации. Наилучшие пожелания вам и вашей семье. Норман.

[@AttilaSVK]

Great content as usual :) However that motor is loud. And it's loud because of the driver. Try a TMC2208 in 1/16 microstepping mode, it will make the motor near silent. It's available in the popular StepStick format used primarily in 3D printers, but you can adapt it to an Arduino nano with the CNC shield. It does however require 12V instead of 6V, but the motor noise will be gone for good. Edit: here's a comparison between a DRV8825 and a TMC2208 driver, both in 1/16 microstepping mode: kzbin.info/www/bejne/rGGzkp2deL6Vh80

[@zosimo538]

Jesus is coming back amen po ipakalat ang salita Ng Diyos Kase babalik na sya amen

[@Madness832]

~8:01: there's 13 cylinders there!

[@bixanorak]

Sapristi Nivose! You're right - there are 13 & I only counted 12. But then, I make many mistakes... 8^) Thanks for telling me. Cheers, Norman.

[@arnaldoalves1362]

Fala demais. E não mostra tocando logo.aff

[@marcobrecca]

You talk too much. Get to the point and make a 2 minute video.