PHP Is Terrible...

[@InfinityN]

PHP is terrible .... said the Javascript developer.

[@JeremyAndersonBoise]

Who is? 😅

[@professor_ozzy]

Said the guy who has been looking for a job for the past 5yrs for an entry lvl position 😂

[@AllMyGabens]

​@@professor_ozzysays the egotistical butthurt nerds who are going to go back and forth ad nauseum until the rest of our brains fall out the back of our fucking heads.

[@professor_ozzy]

@@JeremyAndersonBoise undefined 😬

[@yojou3695]

​@@professor_ozzygo fix some dependencies or something

[@williamdd450]

There are only two kinds of programming languages: the ones people complain about and the ones nobody uses

[@martijnb3381]

The one people complain about is often ten times more used 😊

[@myname2462]

🤓

[@RandomNoob1124]

The ones usually complained about are used by KZbin comment section “programmers” lol.

[@someman7]

@@RandomNoob1124 I've professionally and semi-professionally used... about 10 languages. I don't see a problem with PHP. Also, you don't appear smarter by making anyone look dumber. Not to people smarter than yourself, at least. EDIT: Apparently I misunderstood @RandomNoob1124's comment - see below

[@RandomNoob1124]

@@someman7 I don’t think you comprehended my comment correctly. I didn’t insinuate anyone being less smart or smarter than me. I insinuated that the people who complain about languages, typically are KZbin commenters who try to sound like they know what they’re talking about but in reality have no significant work/projects that prove they’ve actually used/experienced the language.

[@cbaesemanai]

I will ship 3 php projects by the time you solve your npm dependency nightmare to get some library working that should exist in the default language.

[@sudeshryan8707]

Couldnt hv said any better..

[@Lolimov]

Yes exactly this the standard library of PHP is pretty awesome.

[@jan.tichavsky]

PHP has its quirks but the fact is my PHP app runs 24/7, updating PgSQL database from real time public transport data. No plugins, packages, compilation needed. And as a bonus the managed (and shared) webhosting is dirt cheap so I only need to care about the code.

[@dasten123]

in your dream

[@bumblebity2902]

and you deal with composer.

[@ya64]

Oh no... junior developers write problematic code in PHP.... PHP is terrible! It's the worst argument I ever heard.

[@Khaos98]

yea, that happens literally for every language code

[@chrisalexthomas]

90% of the video is just "I have skill issues" ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[@yapdog]

That's usually the case.

[@Ways2Code]

Yeah pretty much my feeling as well!!!

[@tonskreee6213]

PHP sucks if you compare it to most of the programming languages. I use PHP too.

[@chrisalexthomas]

@@tonskreee6213 you’re the 36th Haskell programmer on that newsletter, aren’t you?…

[@tonskreee6213]

@@chrisalexthomas LOL, I really like how you assume things haha. Grow up mate.

[@beaticulous]

PHP is your friend and your customers don't care.

[@pbsuite]

[@aurilllium]

Your customers don’t care which is why you choose the language most appropriate for what you want to do, not always PHP but it could be. That’s not to say rewrite old codebases in an entirely new language though, that’s generally going to be much worse than just working with the existing one

[@uaer309]

​@@aurillliumunless you already have at least 100k active users and need to migrate into a micro service architecture Laravel is the way to go imo.

[@heyman620]

They care, they want the features WordPress provides. I say it as the customer since I managed a team and we outsourced this type of work. We migrated from JS+Node to WordPress.

[@ignskeletons]

This comment strikes at the truth, the end user does not care as long as the website works. If they can use your website without issue they'll never once even think about what programming language was used to make it.

[@TAINCER_]

That example code was also how someone would write PHP 6-8 years ago

[@ak4rp0v]

I’d say even 10-15 years ago…

[@InfinityN]

Definitely not 8 years ago. At least 10+.

[@Leonhart_93]

Not even. It's a html template, a view, not a controller or a service.

[@gipen]

I worked in php for real 15+ years ago and we already had simpletemplate, we had different files for php and html, and we used static classes to represent our db model, having effective mvc in separate files and folders. I think thats the way someone that was just messing around or learning worked in php.

[@triplehalo]

First thing I noticed. Echo in your templates? Come on now.

[@yega3k]

7:51 No one writes PHP like that anymore. When is that sample code from, the 90s??

[@biomorphic]

I started with PHP casually, when it was a very limited scripting language. I mean casually, because I hired a guy to develop the back office of a web application. We decided to go for PHP, I don't even know why. I had experience in Java at the time, and Turbo Pascal, Delphi, C/C++. Nothing was working, it was full bugs, so I paid for what he had done so far, and I took the thing in my hands. I kept the HTML and I throw away the PHP. I had no experience building websites, so I learned both PHP and HTML. Well, I smashed it. PHP was limited at the time, and it was HTML mixed up with PHP, a pain to refactor. But it served me well. Nowadays is totally different, much more sophisticated. Is has a lot of great MVC frameworks, it runs much faster, much better support for OOP, template languages to write HTML templates, an amazing standard library, Composer and Packagist for external packages, a great and extensible log library. PHP does what it does better than any other programming language. You can't use it to write a driver, it is not meant to be use for services or daemons, but for APIs and website in general is simply great. Also you find a lot of cheap developers who can use it, which is a great thing for a startup who does not have money. And the language itself is way better than Python. Thanks to the community it evolved with a lot of RFP in a great scripting language. And yes, that is a sample code from the 90s.

[@RandomNoob1124]

It’s to fit the narrative, influencer programmers don’t actually program.

[@patricknelson]

I remember interviewing people in 2009 who wrote code like this… even by then we were _pretty well_ past that code style. PHP def has its quirks, but that example proves that any idiot can write 💩 code in any language.

[@nananananadev_]

I think it has. 😅

[@ayoubrahmani4045]

a blade page isnt that different

[@TheMagnus156]

Classic PHP hater, drops random code from 20 years ago "HEY EVERYONE, look my awful js library is way better". Is that like just low self esteem thing or why are they doing this? Also most what he showed was just an HTML template, so it doesn't even make sense.

[@RazorMureithi]

mysqli hasbeen deprecated since v7, we are in 8.3, f that guy

[@Frank-xu2ed]

​@@RazorMureithibullshit, the decades old mysql extension was removed years ago and mysqli is the successor which got improved in 8.x Some of the functions and aliases around mysqli have been deprecated or maybe already removed, but you shouldn't have used those anyway for better alternatives

[@paperell]

Every time someone criticized PHP just ask him "where is your lambo?"

[@Farbfilmstudio]

What color does your lambo has*

[@JustBCWi]

I think DHH might criticize PHP, and he has a Le Mans car. Is that close enough?

[@monolith-zl4qt]

That's funny because ever since 2011, PHP devs are the most underpaid on the job market. Try asking a Cobal or legacy C#/Java consultant.

[@dandogamer]

@@monolith-zl4qt the guys with the lambos were the startup founders who typically used php as their initial version

[@ZM-dm3jg]

Lamb's is for brokies. A lambo is 10% the price of a Bugatti. It's a poor man's Bugatti

[@S4ntia60]

PHP is the Nickelback of the programming world. Only when you stop listening it's haters you realize it was a lie told by JS devs this whole time and it's cool

[@professor_ozzy]

Damm right!

[@theshermantanker7043]

Pretty much the same for Java too, minds it's own business, still gets shit on

[@ajar1000]

I wrote some truly awful php code about a decade ago for my dad's company. Still works!

[@cbaesemanai]

I wrote some over decade ago that out lived the hardware twice and was just replaced last year. It was perhaps the most simple code I have ever written, no db connections etc. It took all the company orders in for all that time. They probably replaced it with a dozen node containers, two k8s clusters and a few oracle databases.

[@airaction6423]

Why it shouldn't?

[@hermes6910]

PHP is only as good as the developer. If you think it sucks, it's probably a skills issue. Being good doesn't mean it's the language of the year. But still, PHP > JS for the backend, any day. And it would take less time to deliver a product with Symfony or Laravel than with all your JS half framework half panda half lib.

[@ivan3584]

Based on security problems is still the worst language ever made

[@m4sterred853]

@@ivan3584Where’s the data on that?

[@404maxnotfound]

@@ivan3584 Are they security problems modern day or security problems years ago?

[@aragnophy]

@@ivan3584 Because of popularity, it's not a language problem. Python have a lot more issues

[@hermes6910]

@@ivan3584 The 2 firsts sentences are the answer for you.

[@immaterial_vivi]

nobody actually hates PHP for PHP, we all hate it for the half broken, mission-critical Wordpress/Typo3/Joomla installs we inherited at our first jobs

[@will4417]

Many hate it because the last version they used was 5.3. People also hate it because others do, like the Dallas Cowboys.

[@lazymass]

​@@will4417I hate it, because I still have the horrors of working on badly written projects in my head. Too many PHP stuff is just garbage. Even stuff written in frameworks like Laravel can easily be complete garbage. Is it a problem of language? Not at all... Latest versions are actually pretty nice, but I don't want to deal with another hot garbage project. Me switching to TS and Go really helped with it, better selection of well maintained and engineered projects in my experience. Made my job more enjoyable.

[@armsofundertow98]

That video felt like it was geared towards people with 0 attention spans. I'd love to see an actual video going into PHP. I tried using it before and hated it but it was years ago. I would like to see what has changed and why you would use it over basically anything else (JS, C#, Java, Kotlin)

[@alex_xe]

try @phpannotated . i think that he's building a framework from scratch right now.

[@_DATA_EXPUNGED_]

Aaron Francis has a ton of excellently made videos on the topic. Prime reacted to a few by him as well. But generally, I'd say that while modern php is a really nice language, it's been primarily getting popular again because of Laravel. It is THE reason to use php. And also shows off all the fantastic new features the language added in the last years. Additionally, there's the ease of use of php - you just get a VPS for 5€ and can easily serve quite a few customers with that - no need for all the cloud insanity. So much more simple. No vendor lock-in, no ridiculous traffic pricing. And easily enough for the vast majority of websites. Unless you're going to have to scale to tens of millions of daily users or even more, there is no reason not to use the simple and available php.

[@odcat614]

Welcome to the internet 👍

[@Suleyman-kel]

funny how all 4 languages are Java or inspired by Java

[@dragons_advocate]

Here's a big reason: PHP can be hosted everywhere. Every web hoster does it. Not so much for every other language, most of the time you'd need containers, cloud, a (virtual) server, or a combination of the lot. Makes hosting more expensive and requires supervision and support. PHP apps often are just set-and-forget.

[@simsmzzms]

Full time PHP and Java dev here. Enjoy both a lot but prefer writing PHP especially with all the post 8.2 features. It's honestly really great. Most of the gripes in the video were problems you could get from any shitty unstructured codebase in any language. Done right PHP is the bomb.

[@Khaos98]

truestory

[@Leonhart_93]

Yeah, the video has a lot of random thrown statements that were factually incorrect. And showing a php-html template which is a view is not the core of how a non-trivial PHP backend is built, which would be controllers and services 😂 PHP is not particularly easier or harder to learn than something like Java or C# and in fact all 3 of them share a similar use case of the backend server. These days is pretty performant as well, it does number crunching really well. I like PHP because you can write any paradigm you want. You can write functional too, classes aren't a requirement, or use both as needed, reminiscent of how C++ does it. And the best part: it has the Laravel framework.

[@jan.tichavsky]

I think the most criticism comes because it's so easy to start with so you can write garbage that still works as long as it doesn't hit unexpected conditions. It's the Python of web pages. You can run anything from a single file app to a huge framework monstrosity. But that doesn't make it bad.

[@Leonhart_93]

@@jan.tichavsky That is true, with very little training you can start adding some ifs and for-loops in a .html file and you have a basic web page. No build required either, it just works. However the core of the PHP and the difficult logic in a larger project is always contained in controllers, services and repositories. That's like 90% of all my PHP code. Also, the Laravel framework improves on those html views and adds a much nicer and simpler syntax. Basically the React server components before they were cool 😅

[@MyZombieLick]

Symfony 6 and 7 are also spectacular.

[@aragnophy]

Yeah, showing template code for 1 sec and complaining how bad it is... Nowadays ppl not using php like this

[@Nekroido]

The only thing that stops me from writing purely functional is lack of currying :< I can probably substitute it with invokable classes, but then the simplicity and magic is gone

[@NoemiSalaun]

PHP with static analysis is far more typesafe than most of the language. Even the associative array coming out of my sql queries are inferred to the correct typed array shape.

[@SurenEnfiajyan]

There is a Typescript for JS, which makes JS programming a much more pleasant experience.

[@DavidSmith-ef4eh]

how bro? with doc annotations? I know there are doc annotations for hashmaps and objects, but you still have to define them yourself and they don't necessarily prove that what you've gotten matches the annotation.

[@gaetanp77]

​@@DavidSmith-ef4ehyes we don't have generics (and we'll probably never get it) so outside parameter return constant and enum type hinting you have to use phpdoc. Which is not the best but still something that gives you pretty decent static analysis.

[@DavidSmith-ef4eh]

@@gaetanp77 I usually just create dtos, php objects just for having type safe return types lol. Copilot makes that chore a bit easier, since it autofills all the boilerplate.

[@DavidSmith-ef4eh]

@@gaetanp77 and php generics, I've used them many times, I still couldn't do them from memory lol. Incredible how complicated they made them in php doc annotations

[@everbliss7955]

3:40 "You have more servers than you have users" is out of pocket😂😂😂

[@willinton06]

That was like, so harsh

[@PvtAnonymous]

I have only one server and I use it just for myself. Good ratio, I'd say.

[@spoofer9113]

@@PvtAnonymous I'm assuming its local server.

[@PvtAnonymous]

@@spoofer9113 publicly reachable through a domain. There wouldn't really be a point hosting your stuff when it's local :)

[@JamesSmith-cm7sg]

PHP and Laravel is perfect for a start up web platform or backend. It's so easy to build features. You'll ship at 2-3x the pace.

[@cartoonhead9222]

Yeh, or even Symfony.

[@Frexuz]

Still worse than Rails 😂 Laravel just copied it and made it less good

[@Arvi89]

I dislike laravel style, I find Symfony way better.

[@airaction6423]

Codeigniter even if discontinued is good

[@constantinegeist1854]

Modern enterprise PHP is barely different from Java. Same concepts. The frameworks/ORMs borrowed heavily from Spring/Hibernate. The only difference is the standard lib in PHP which is more procedural than Java's.

[@gaetanp77]

At last a comment that actually makes sense. PHP has a wonky standard lib inherited from the dark ages, but the rest is pretty on par with what you would expect. It doesn't have super cool features but its best strength lies in its library's ecosystem. The modern PHP framework are gems for backend development I mean Symfony is really an incredibly productive and flexible set of tools you would miss with most other languages.

[@thomac]

Yes, and on top of that, php is generally less verbose than java, and doesn't require you to compile

[@arbitrarycomplexity]

You can write command line PHP in the same way you write command line python.. yes.

[@descendency]

Everything can be packaged in to an executable if you try hard enough

[@MarisaClardy]

If you use FrankenPHP, you can also just create an executable file too

[@alwaysnobody2841]

Laravel mentioned YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

[@OzzyTheGiant]

YEEEEE INTENSIFIES!!!!

[@helloitsjury]

Woop woop!!!

[@XeonProductions]

I've never hated PHP, its always been that familiar friend.

[@iuse9646]

I hate the people that hate it. There's absolutely no reason to hate it

[@ghajik.]

Exactly, it's easier than anything else you have to deal with in the web dev

[@ivanschekoldin7315]

@@iuse9646 I hate it

[@Daraneys]

@@ivanschekoldin7315 me too

[@harleyspeedthrust4013]

i feel that way about perl. whenever i need to get some scriptable thing done quick, there is perl.

[@laurencevank]

One of the best things about PHP is its documentation. It allows user comments, and the best voted ones have practical examples and clarify when/how to use the feature, its shortcomings, alternatives and a big etc. The worst voted can also be useful to know what not to do, it's great!

[@patricknelson]

Super easy to look up every function and every class and even see which versions supported it. Very well structured change logs, demonstrating what’s new in each version (minor/major) and what’s breaking, etc. That’s one thing I really love to see in any language I’m picking up and learning. I think that made a huge difference in its adoption, too.

[@1.N.Decent]

What's great about it is I can download the whole thing including the comments in chm.

[@dominikvonlavante6113]

Ehhh ... compared to Java, Springboot or Quarkus, its documentation is just raw sewage. It is terrible and even dangerous because the documentation is written for a beginner, but absolutey hides and ignores on purpose all of the nitty gritty details and special cases.

[@64bit-Slash]

Exactly... I would love to see PHP opensource there phpdocs... every other garbage language and framework would be wise to learn and do the same as PHP.. except they probably won't because they are stupid.

[@Sasha-dh5bg]

PHP will never die as long as CMS (Wordpress, Shopify, Opencart, Drupal etc.) and frameworks (Laravel, Symfony, Yii2) exists. 80% of sites are written on PHP

[@danielmoll]

PHP + HTMX + SQLite ... works!

[@rangingaway92]

My favorite stack

[@patricknelson]

“PHP doesn’t have conventions” … Do you even PSR, bro?

[@stefanalecu9532]

Haters gonna hate

[@David-ng9qh]

Lmao good one

[@patricknelson]

Been writing PHP in some form since 2004 or so. Had my own framework and eventually even an ORM modeled after Eloquent (from Laravel). Man, when Laravel hit the scene it was amazing. I picked it up in 2014 after it had been out for a while and loved it.

[@florisvandenberg7424]

Every programmer should build a framework at least once. Such a great learning experience. I modeled mine after Symfony and Doctrine.

[@Ruzgfpegk]

PHP is indeed quite good for CLI scripts, as it evolved while Perl stagnated a lot (and Python became a clusterfuck of virtual environments) (and Bash stayed a pure nightmare). For work I wrote a PHP library so that it could be used through a "web" PHP file (with AJAX using htmx) as much as through a CLI PHP file, for different types of users, it keeps each "path" clean and easy to maintain/understand and for everything it does single-threaded, it's really fast.

[@DorianDevelops]

The rant about working in a real program was so spot on! Shortcuts on top of shortcuts because of a death march will make you a bitter old programmer real fast!!

[@ThePrimeTimeagen]

Isn't that just a fact of life

[@onee]

As someone who first learned JavaScript then learned PHP. PHP feels so easy in comparison. JavaScript is like a programming language that wants to be everything, but is really none of them at the same time. This is why they have invented 50 ways of doing the same thing over the years which makes the language unnecessarily verbose.

[@davos913]

I have watched you for quite some time, and I like that you have started to acknowledge PHP because it is actually not bad at all. Also, the templating example was like something from 1997; it shows that the guy does not know what he is talking about. Nowadays, PHP uses templating engines like twig.

[@MikeC1]

Template engines for PHP is just as asinine as transpiled languages in JS. I have worked with both, professionally.

[@MyZombieLick]

@@MikeC1 Twig with Symfony is really quite good.

[@patricknelson]

I’ve written my own templating engine in PHP, used Blade, Twig, SilverStripe, Nunjucks and etc. So far I gotta say Blade and Twig are up there. SilverStripe is very succinct which is nice, but the template inheritance and sections/blocks in Blade/Twig are pretty sick.

[@SkylearJ]

I still use PHP as the engine because honestly it's super well suited for it. Much less overhead.

[@ska042]

​@@MikeC1 Not at all, templating languages have have a lot of purposes that stuff like CoffeeScript didn't have. They're supposed to be limited, so you don't end up having all your domain logic in the templates, and they're supposed to be simplified, since a lot of the time, the templates aren't written and edited by the same people who write the backend logic and database interactions. Having a separate template engine goes towards those goals. Besides, even TypeScript is transpiled to JS, it just happens to also be a superset of JS. Nobody complains about TypeScript being asinine.

[@takeiteasyeh]

PHP 8.x is actually so nice

[@dragons_advocate]

A project in university had us create a web app with api, and the backend guy on my team fumbled the bag hard trying to get some complicated microservice cloud to work. After panicking a bit about the looming deadline, I managed to recreate the backend in PHP in an afternoon. (Just a homework project, nothing complicated). Even did my own URI routing. Primitive, but simple and functional. And PHP can be hosted literally everywhere. So, no - PHP itself is not bad. My guess is, most of the disdain for it comes from mixed-in HTML templating (which btw, you don't have to do that way... but you can), and HTML being an unreadable convolut by itself more often than not.

[@jan.tichavsky]

You can write HTML with some PHP in it, PHP with some HTML echos, pure PHP with externally imported HTML from somewhere else, and anything in between. Hell, you can have an API without any HTML. Easy to start with and gets the thing done. As you say, pick some cheap webhosting and you get a shared but fully managed server for peanuts.

[@RandomNoob1124]

Most of it comes from KZbin comment programmers who eat up narratives and programmed hello world.

[@tomcoop9750]

I just started learning PHP after years of using JavaScript and front-end languages. I don’t understand the hate lol. Seems like a decent way to parse form data and connect to a SQL database. 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@Khaos98]

People like to hate php just because it's mainstream doing it. Then you discover that they literally know nothing about it and they are still at version 4

[@carlosafonso4671]

As a developer who's been writing PHP code for more than 10 years and have been openly criticizing how bad the language was throughout almost my whole career I must say that PHP has actually got (and keeps getting) a great and fun language to work with. Definitely worth learning it nowadays

[@drcphd]

Started working a lot more with PHP in the last couple of years. It's actually one of the languages I enjoy the most tbh

[@michaelbrauner]

I love the Symfony Framework. Half of Laravel is made of Symfony components. I just like Full Stack Symfony.

[@rynhndrcksn]

I had to learn Symfony for my job about a year ago. It was my first foray into modern PHP and I was mind blown how nice Symfony, and even Laravel (though it isn’t my first pick) are. Especially the effort that’s being put into the UX side of things with Symfony. Turbo and Stimulus becoming first class citizens is a huge improvement imo.

[@michaelbrauner]

@@rynhndrcksn Oh man, you are so right. I like how you write about that. I think and feel the same.

[@AngelZaprianov]

My personal opinion is Laravel is good for small projects or entry level... Symfony is more for professionals, enterprise use. Love Symfony! ❤❤❤

[@michaelbrauner]

​@@AngelZaprianov Yes, I agree with that. Laravel is very interesting, precisely because so much is happening and the community is very active. But for serious projects, the stability, simplicity and robustness of Symfony is unbeatable for me. Thank you for your comment. I appreciate that!

[@florisvandenberg7424]

True that. All the good bits of Laravel are actually Symfony packages. The shitty stuff was added by Laravel itself.

[@jonathanjacobson7012]

I used to hate php, but what really sucks is this video you reviewed.

[@Winnetou17]

Yeah, that video really is stupid.

[@asagiai4965]

The amount of weird and misinformation before 2 minutes is outstanding. I think I never heard someone I know who program in PHP, that it is functional. And a PL being easy doesn't mean it shouldn't be categorized as PL.

[@Belgabor]

I think he means functional as in working, not as in functional programming.

[@asagiai4965]

@Belgabor I see that makes sense. But it is still weird because the purpose of programming is to make functional things. All other things are complimentary to them.

[@StefanoV827]

PHP with OOP syntax is literally identical to Java with sometimes even more features, and what that guy shows in the video? A template with html and php mixed? Is he still in 1999? Also Prime, can you take a look to PHP with Swoole performance benchmarks?

[@Leonhart_93]

Yes, it has every OOP feature you would ever need, and unlike Java you can also do functional without any classes needed. It's very versatile and useful.

[@WrittenInFilm]

Full stack multi stack dev of 15 years, PHP is by far my favorite language, and I've written full time in dozens upon dozens of different things, from machine/assembly code to the netcode on the firmware on industrial routers. PHP is is like no other 😘

[@sealsharp]

What a terribly anticlimactic ending.

[@Miralhas42069]

the whole video was pretty anticlimatic tbh

[@odayprogrammer]

@@Miralhas42069 it's just reaction videos

[@martijnb3381]

Only programmers with no experience will dislike other languages, in time they learn to dislike programmers not languages. PHP is a to the point scripting language, that made programming populair. Because PHP is so accessible and easy to learn and use. PHP is the first language i learned in 2001, and i still like the language. And just like C you can shoot your self in the foot, and that is what i like about PHP. Nobody is holding your hand!

[@RealRatchet]

No i hate the language because it was a dumpster fire when I was forced to use it and I don't care if it got any better in the last 15 years.

[@martijnb3381]

@@RealRatchet Thats fine, just use the language that fits you best🙂 And beeing forced to use things is never good... Im 'kinda' forced to use Magento, Magento 1 was ok, Magento 2 i really dislike, but its my job so..

[@falconeagle3655]

JavaScript suck. Change my mind I dare you

[@RandomNoob1124]

@@RealRatchetmake a better scripting language or shut up 😂

[@martijnb3381]

@@falconeagle3655 JS does the job for most people, and there is no alternative, browsers only know JS as clientside language. jQuery is a good tool to use when working with JS. When you say 'it sucks' you probably mean it is inconsistent, i agree. But in practise i never had any big issues with it.

[@Mr-Ibee]

With my current job I've had to work on an application written in PHP which has needed some serious love (like fixing SQLi vulns due to a lack of validation / sanitization). I've actually had a great time with the language thus far! Even with the codebase being a tad disorganized and such I've still found most things pretty easy to navigate and get going in.

[@TheLegendOfTerry]

"When your Jira tickets reference other Jira tickets" This brought back bad memories :(

[@ABMedia83]

Yeah, PHP 7 and 8 are really good. The language I can't stand is Visual Basic because it's a "Hold your hand language"

[@MaybeADragon]

Visual Basic is great for beginners though. Compared to JS and Python, I think it's a good start to "real" programming for young people.

[@rorp24]

I hate VB but maybe because my first and only contact with it was VBA as an intern, with a codebase that was passed from intern to interns

[@CottidaeSEA]

PHP 7.4 is when it actually felt good to use, 8.2 and 8.3 are wonderful. I think PHP has suffered mostly because there was a lack of strict typing. No IDE could make sense of the code and you'd easily get warning everywhere. Arrays allowing any items is still a big problem that exists though, I hope they can solve that sooner rather than later.

[@swiclabc]

​@@CottidaeSEA The array thing isn't a problem at all. If you need to "strictly" allow only certail types, you can wrap an array with a custom Collection class, that only allows the type you want.

[@CottidaeSEA]

@@swiclabc I know, but that shouldn't be necessary.

[@Tyrianad]

As a PHP Developer, i don't care what people think. What i do care about is that i can solve clients problems, in a fast way, and that does not need an omegastack to run. Not everyone needs the infrastructure of NASA for a simple web app, and not every company can have a cloud stack with a gazillion services tied together.

[@backpacklv4]

I use PHP on a daily basis, and I've been using it for quite many years (mostly only on personal stuff and fun projects, I've been using php at work for around 4 years) and I have to say that modern PHP is incredibly easy and fun to use. You can even throw the blade templating on top to make your life easier.

[@sanusihassan7125]

PHP is made to made to make money, that's why they have the dollar sign in their variables, it's rare to find a JS dev with a Lambo

[@stefanalecu9532]

I don't see Perl devs with lambos (although they've saved up for a nice house at least)

[@slipknot1943]

jquery baby

[@sanusihassan7125]

@@slipknot1943 people don't use jQuery often nowadays

[@neoqueto]

Therefore jQuery was made to made to make money too. jQuery + PHP = $$$$$$$$$$$$

[@SopwerEnjiner]

and PHP is a currency in the Philippines 😄 (PHP - PHilippine Peso)

[@AntonSlavik]

A login form written in php is HARD TO READ!?! Brother in Christ, what the hell!? You can't get any simpler in terms of a clean layout of sequential statements. Has this guy seen a form made with JavaScript? (I wouldn't actually write a form in JavaScript, because that's stupid and pointless).

[@gonzajuarez4918]

"PHP today is not like PHP 10 years ago" awh I say the same thing but with C++ and 20 years. Feels odd being on the receiving side of that argument

[@ferinzz]

Omg.. i experienced this recently. Hadn't touched c++ since 2006. Went through a 'fundamentals' course recently and was blown away by how much is in the std.

[@rusi6219]

Modern C++ would be amazing if it wasn't for all the bloat. C is just superior to C++ with it's conservative approach.

[@ezekieloruven]

​@rusi6219 C++ remains committed to the zero cost abstraction as far as I know. What bloat are you referring to? Is it just the large feature set (I won't deny how confusing that is), or does it affect executable size/performance?

[@rusi6219]

@@ezekieloruven large feature set

[@harleyspeedthrust4013]

​@@rusi6219well you don't have to use the bloat. c++ is objectively superior to c because you can do everything that C does AND you can organize your code in a sane way. you can use as much of the std as you want or as little as you want; the core language features beat C imo

[@backlink69]

if you said "php is terrible", maybe you're still junior dev. Cuz as a senior role, that person should only care about how "their language" can resolve the problems. Engineer should focus to the problems and find out the way to handle them. Not debate about the programing language

[@SpencerThayer]

PHP just works. Cope.

[@domjag8439]

“You guys have more servers than users!” LOL that is a classic line!

[@lowkeycode]

This guys video was like a strobe light of memes and gifs right in the face

[@ThePrimeTimeagen]

get wrecked

[@odayprogrammer]

was way better before

[@mrright1068]

LMAO! Jira makes you an enterprise developer? Is that what I heard?

[@ryanisthewind]

Even it's creator didn't make a scripting language at first, it was just a template language Now it is a great language

[@keithprinkey8575]

I love how people complain about php and mostly the people complaining are the ones who don’t know php 😂😂😂. Php powers over 70% of the web and until it no longer has a strangle hold on the internet, this argument is moot!!! Not only that but the largest and most widely used CMS in the world, is built on top of php along with every other major CMS. 😂😂😂 ON TOP of all that, you didn’t show a true php project at all? The php you barely showed was wrote years ago???? You were showing html templates that don’t even use php? It sounds like you made this video to create turmoil and views, quite frankly and I just lost a lot of respect for this channel for even entertaining this idea that php sucks even though it powers 70% of the web.

[@johnchristian3248]

i program in PHP, JS and Python and every week and rank them in that order. I can understand the love of python for data scientists but for monolith web apps its gross.

[@Wizatek]

PHP is fire! people that are hating on it are most likely hello world level programmers

[@JaderRubini]

brazillian mojitos hurt me emotionally i’m in shambles

[@i-dont-burn-under-the-sun]

@@squishy-tomato I was thinking what the hell he considers a brazillian mojito. Thanks for clarifying, no sane people would reach that one alone.

[@drcphd]

I really dislike the language/editor/framework "wars", when being handed JS and PHP code bases, in my experience there's a bigger probability of the JS one being a bunch of spaghetti. Also, in my professional life it's usually the less experienced developers who complain about PHP. I've yet to meet a seasoned dev who hated on PHP.

[@asdfcsa41fas]

THE NAME... PHPAGEN

[@CyberFreaked]

PHP is awesome, the only thing that I miss in some special cases is that there is not boot sequence for your application. It would be nice to have shared memory over multiple requests / clients that is initialized on boot of the php-fpm instance.

[@j-p-d-e-v]

Laravel is one of the best thing happened to PHP.

[@arminmatthes]

PHP has never been my favorite language, but modern PHP (7.4+) definitely deserves some love! Thanks for the honest and objective discussion! And I absolutely dislike Pythonbecause I find meaningful spaces cringeworthy and needlessly difficult to refactor, but I don't go around hating about it to people asking me whether or not they should learn it when I don't have a firm understanding of the language...

[@fg-zm2yu]

PHP -> the cheapest to deploy and maintain yearly. Go PHP!

[@dschledermann]

That depends on what your project is doing. If you just want a web site with some logic and not lot load, then sure, PHP will be the cheapest to deploy. If your project has to do a lot of heavy lifting, then something more efficient like Rust may be the way to go. With regards to maintainability, PHP is going to win over JavaScript any day, but probably lose to Rust. Anyway, that's my take a PHP and Rust programmer.

[@stefanalecu9532]

​@@dschledermannyou're that confident in *Rust* on the back end and not, you know, C# or Java which are already established? Good luck finding soydevs to maintain your outdated-within-3-years app

[@dschledermann]

@@stefanalecu9532 nice with some name-calling. That's always going to improve the conversation. With maintainability I'm mostly think how your current code is going to work on future versions of the language. Here, I've had a range of subtle problems with PHP mostly concerning automatic casting, whereas Rust is strict. As for Java and C#. Sure, they are more established in the cooperate space. For the tasks I'm doing they are not the best fit. I work in a telco and some of my tasks include some massive number crunching. TBs of data (phone traffic data). Rust is just a very good fit for such a task, as it is both quicker and especially more memory efficient than any of the other languages mentioned.

[@tanmaydas]

When Neo was inside the Matrix, from time to time he used to doubt his surroundings. I think the guy who just showed a 15-year old template and spread hate against PHP is paid to do so by PHP community so that PHP community doesn't get polluted by toxic JS devs and PHP folks can live peacefully by maintaining a healthy community of programmers. Well played PHP, well played indeed. The art of reverse psychology🧠

[@tabsc3489]

my first two programming languages were PHP and Python for chatbots... i blacked out the PHP parts.

[@Gabriel-kl6bt]

It has been so many years since I touched PHP. I got into Node.js, React, TS, and I enjoy them very much. I am studying .NET and C# at the moment, and never have I ever thought about PHP again.

[@RavenGhostwisperer]

If you think PHP is bad, you've never tried Perl ;).

[@NoX-512]

Perl will give you PTSD

[@takeiteasyeh]

@@NoX-512 s/PTSD/JOY/g; fixed it for you :)

[@stefanalecu9532]

What about Perl? Are you hating on Perl but not on legally distinct web Perl? I find PHP devs hating on Perl so funny

[@aragnophy]

and JS is worst

[@JulianStokesIt]

@@NoX-512 When I read that I mentally missed the P and then mixed up the remaining letters into STD. I used Perl and still maintain a small portion of it today. Do you think I should get tested?

[@yevhenkozlov286]

9:00 with React it's relatively easy to squish all the abominations into custom hooks or/and extra special components; to hide and to forget

[@iojourny]

The bots... god, the bots.. Before watching the whole video, I'll just say that PHP, like any language, has it's own strengths (better soft typing than JS, vast amount of 1st-party functionality, very good ecosystem compared to dumpster fires like NPM), but also some weaknesses (mainly anything async). Also, it's as good as the framework you use with it (and no, self written code is still competing with frameworks, it's not beyond any comparisons).

[@locSob]

You still can't describe an array item type with PHP. Why do you need those types? JS has ts to check types, php has Psalm but it is too limited and is not developed.

[@Fanmade1b]

​@@locSobof course it is possible to work around proper typing in PHP. But that's called bad programming. There are more than enough ways to write properly structured and typed code in PHP, even without having to create another language that tries to simulate having any typing at all.

[@Winnetou17]

This needs more upvotes so the bot who copied this comment is buried. While you're here, if you saw the bot comment(s) (the one with a lady-like icon and having instead of actual new lines) please report it. Thank you!

[@bowiemtl]

A bot stole your comment, the irony is real

[@constantinegeist1854]

>PHP's weakness is anything async PHP's execution model aligns perfectly with the modern serverless/stateless paradigm. I.e. you have short bursts of execution without any state. Usually asynchronous execution in PHP is done by handling events from an event bus. The event bus often is distributed and can be used to coordinate processes on different machines. So it's distributed with no additional effort. Scaling PHP is also super easy (because no state), just add servers...

[@kvelez]

0:28 Amen. 0:51 Amen. 2:09 Python 2:24 PHP 3:19 Horizontal scale apps. 4:14 Linux Contributor 8:35 Frontends 10:31 Template 11:40 Amen -> C#, PHP, Go. 14:19 Unbelievable.

[@keremardicli4013]

I dont understand why people hate php. It does the job so good in a short period of time. Relatively cheap on hardware as well. So fast to begin with and to get a result.

[@jatinkumar7287]

New developer, learnt javascript but in my startup company, had to put my hands on laravel for backend. Right now im working on vuejs and laravel and honestly I only knew 3% of laravel and it has actually change my mind from hating php to im cool with it. The only thing i miss in php is the . Notation. In most language its for object but here its for addition. U need -> to use object methods. That's the only problem i found so far with thus framework.

[@belkocik]

There are 50 jobs in PHP in my country and there are 900 jobs in Java and 600 with C#. Pick wise :D

[@jafar217]

I'd pick c# any day. It's the easiest to understand although the generics and their constraints sometimes add a lot of boilerplate unlike f# which seems to have a smarter compiler which figures out the generics by itself. I find f# syntax difficult to understand so I'd rather stick with c# 😋.

[@InfinityN]

This take is so weird... You're not a X, Y or Z developer. Either you are a developer or not. Learning a language is just a matter of a few days, max weeks to properly get into. Learn programming and any language becomes easy.

[@chockman3833]

Apply for all of them and lie through the application - languages can be picked up on the go

[@jafar217]

@@InfinityN learning new languages great and all but if I have to learn a new language every day then I won't be able to do any useful programming. Sure if it's interesting I take a look at it, but I'm not going to immediately switch to that language if I don't have to specially if its syntax is so different i have to spend several days understanding whats happening (Specially piping functions to be more specific)😋.

[@everyhandletaken]

@@InfinityNI hope I can one day get to your level & become an expert in 52 languages a year.

[@laniusdev]

3:17 - "...you have more servers than you have users" just killed me. XD

[@AndersonPEM]

PHP is like JabbaScript: it can run good code and bad code. It's up to you :P

[@DasHeino2010]

I just finished my first real calculator in php in ca 300 lines. It creates a html page wich takes 2 values, gets the recepie vor it. Then the 2 inputs you make for mg and weight and adds it to the class of the recepie. Then it shows the difference of ingredients. (so I can use the recepies that are not sold anymore and integrate them into the newer ones to some extend) Im happy I could finally manage that after like 50h because I didnt know anything about programming and immediatly it was like (you need: html, php and CSS) just for my simple calculator on a website. I think I found a new hobby! ^^

[@Ragnar452]

Php can't be worse than javascript, not in a million years. Even version 5.4 was better than javascript.

[@jan.tichavsky]

At version 5.4 the roles were clear, PHP for backend, JS for frontend.

[@strongleongch]

I am full time enterprise PHP developer (while trying to code in C in meantime for fun). I worked with 20+ years old PHP 5.3 codebases as well as PHP 8+ codebases. I really like PHP and I think it is awesome. Hot take: I HATE laravel! People who say that laravel is awesome are same type of people that think that react is simple and electron is good pice of technology (spoiler: it is NOT)

[@robertmarder126]

100% agree with you. I started back in the days of PHP 3.x and have also written a lot of C/C++ too, and I have said for many years that PHP is basically a C scripting language. These languages run everywhere with easy deployment, and have a simple syntax and standard function library you can easily memorize. And the startup/runtime performance is excellent. But these languages require the programmer to take extra care with things like parsing and input validation. With great power comes great responsibility. Most modern developers are more accustomed to a far more hand-holding environment than direct PHP and C give you. Modern PHP/Laravel is considered "good" because it doesn't require the programmer to think very much about what is happening, as the framework hides far more low level constructs from the developer. This adds a lot of higher level complexity of course, especially around OOP and data structures, but modern developers just use copilot and other rich IDEs so they never need to really fully learn their favorite language anyway - because they just learn the framework.

[@AndrewTSq]

I like both JS and PHP :O

[@jamescrittenden2734]

If you've never used PHP traits or its magic curly brace syntax in any code you've ever written, you fundamentally do not understand its expressive power. Though I don't consider this a selling point as much as an observation, it also has occupied multiple spots on the "Best Frameworks for 20__" for years running. Their practices have gone on to inspire many modern day frameworks and continue to do so. For those using 90s to early 2000's as a metric to judge its growth in the last 15+ years are either not using it or have never utilized it to its true potential.

[@caspera3193]

You gradually learn to hate them all.

[@toma1610]

12:40 This principle is applied for EVRYTHING in the business world, not only for programmers, for just avery simple topic: supply and demand.

[@xotmatrix]

I will never drop LAMP. I've played Zork.

[@orterves]

12:20 the value of cobol programmers is mostly in their knowledge of how cobol-based systems are designed and maintained, not so much in knowledge of the language itself

[@edism]

That video was so stupid I'm going to start my channel.

[@ThatJay283]

the 400 line react component thing is so true. like, you have a large form, lots of states, form error handling, also chuck in some sphagetti mess from fixing edge cases, and you have a 400+ line react component.

[@ivanschekoldin7315]

That's because react sucks, just like PHP

[@ThatJay283]

@@ivanschekoldin7315 yup. where I'm at, is react isn't awesome, but moving away from it would require a full application rewrite.

[@gofullstack]

Most hated Lamborghini maker 😂😂😂

[@ComputersAndLife]

PHP was my second web language. Basically, once I hit the part in the Perl book about parsing parameters I went cross-eyed and found PHP and never went back. Wrote a sort of CMS for a fire department that is still up. Definitely need to get it changed. But it was really unique for them to have their call runs listed on their website and being able to go into their run history since the 70's. It was a pretty productive language for me.

[@leomongeg]

People that says PHP sucks = Skill issues

[@ivanschekoldin7315]

People who say sucks = skill issues. Except PHP. It shouldn't exist

[@cdwlights]

I’ve written PHP in a lot of places. I used Symfony but, there are some cool features. Now, I’m a Rustacean in my free time, and whatever pays bills in my day job. When you’ve been coding for 20+ years, the soft skills are much more important, says the 20 year veteran, now realizing my mistakes.

[@swiclabc]

The traits in PHP are not what you think they are :D They are actually a pain in the ass to work with most of the time. Composition of classes is still the better way to go.

[@Leonhart_93]

They are good for frameworks to add various features to classes. Laravel uses them heavily. But in your day to day code you will hardly ever need them.

[@PieJee1]

I see them as static composition. They are overused especially in Laravel projects. They are also similar to mixins. So be careful using them.

[@gaetanp77]

​@@Leonhart_93the fact that you'll find so many traits and facades in Laravel projects is not the strong selling point you think it is. Traits are not that good in PHP, they act as a bag of code you can randomly attach to any class. Sure it can be useful, but it can lead to growing as a bag of shit without you noticing.

[@dschledermann]

Agreed. Most usages of PHP traits I've come across are atrocious. It makes the code opaque and difficult to read and debug. You can't type hint for traits or test them in isolation. A proper composition is almost always the correct approach.

[@mind.journey]

Traits save you writing several LoC, but the trade-off is the opacity they come with. But the only viable alternative is to define the function in all child classes and have them call an external class. In like 1% of the cases you would use proper inheritance, but I try to avoid it like the plague these days

[@StatixCinder]

PHP was great as a language to learn if you were in the C timeframe, it made templating data on websites so easy by looking familiar, it just happened to eat the SQL injection bugs by happenstance of being the most popular of the time when it was discovered.

[@StatixCinder]

As for the PHP cli side, it was actually a really good xml parser, I used it to interpret xml schemas and then fire out C++, java, and C# proxy source code for friggin CORBA. It is really useful depending on what you need.

[@Adjust91]

JavaScript is a terrible language lol. You’d know that if you tried literally anything else. (Not aimed at Prime)

[@rusi6219]

I wish every browser had noscript on by default

[@marcempunkt9737]

"You probably have more servers than users" Ok now I feel personally attacked 😠