PHREAK- Incoming Split 3 Item Overhaul "TANK Items REALLY Suck"/Reason AP Items Aren't Being Changed

[@willshen1772]

A good way to tell how weak tank items are is the fact that ChoGaths meta build is now trinity force second

[@Lin_Nascimento]

As a cho otp who hasnt played in 3 weeks. Uh???????

[@richardgesegnet5481]

Damage cho best cho. Tank cho is sad cho

[@alessgr9394]

​@@Lin_Nascimento cho gath otp 😂😂😂😂

[@tupacshakur5868]

Trinity into wits end was always good, ive been building that on cho for 8 years

[@TheSorrowfulAngel]

I mean, I never really liked full tank cho and usually played more of an AP bruiser line with him(Similar logic as with sion: You are already really tanky baseline if you buy resists, offensive items turn that tankiness into much more of a threat). But trinity? Thats new to me lol

[@mr.mc.doesntexist7693]

You know how you can tell tabk items suck? Even against a full AD team, building armor barely does anything. It used to be punishing, very punishing even but now nobody gives af anymore.

[@riven4121]

Exactly that, the reason why 3+ ADC comps are viable even at the highest level is because armour is absolutely dogshit.

[@Timeforspas12]

Thank god it sucks. Imagine a sejuani or a K'sante going at you with 300 armor not taking damage. Nightmare fuel.

[@RobotboyX2]

yea, running around with 400 armor and randuins, u still get deleted by adcs in 5s, the only tank that can stand up to 3 adcs is rammus.

[@sphyx_4356]

@@RobotboyX2 and the adc gets deleted in 0,1 sec by the tank with 30% max health dmg...

[@RobotboyX2]

@@sphyx_4356 yea, current tank dmg is a bandaid fix, its kinda like aatrox going lethality, if u not gonna live long, might as well go for a big impact. in older seasons tanks took 30s+ to kill adcs

[@yeah-yeah2249]

Here to read about all the copers that will disagree even though tank items do suck lol.

[@WorldKeepsSpinnin]

They dont suck. They do their job. They make you EXTREMELY tanky. Theres nothing that sucks about them.

[@lain_fr0m_w1r3d]

They are just delusional. Angry low ELO ADC mains

[@yeah-yeah2249]

@@WorldKeepsSpinnin They do suck by riot's metrics,and not just a little bit lol

[@stefanristic9245]

Yeah "riots metrics" the metrics of a company that doesnt understand that they have to revert the durability changes back from season 13 in order to make assassins playable in master+ and get zeri lucian corki mid out of the meta at this point i resorted to playing broken ass yone just because of sustain and 200 years champ design since the meta is so obnoxious and boring to deal with for past like 5 patches i think

[@stefanristic9245]

I even see some fkin ezreals too

[@hanshysher6266]

Armor on Tank items suck, Magic Resist in Tank items is too fucking strong

[@KD-_-]

@@hanshysher6266 mages are supposed to suck against tanks

[@olle1153]

@@KD-_-say that to the yasuo woth rookern 4th item

[@facundoc602]

@@KD-_- ap assasins are supposed to suck against tanks, ap battlemages are supposed to shred EVERYONE with high risk

[@kreeperkiller4423]

Honestly Kaenic Rookern, Force of Nature, and Abyssal Mask are the only good MR tank items. They’re extremely good don’t get me wrong, but other things like Hollow Radiance just get completely eclipsed by the other items.

[@naakuallotey2931]

​@@facundoc602everyone except tanks. Malphite amd rammus are just built for ad. They shouldn't shred tanks that build mr easily. Everyone else sure but not tanks.

[@mrcoconut7568]

The reason tank items suck is cause some classes (skirmishers, divers) are overloaded, and when they build reasonably gold efficient tank items, they're so much stronger than anyone else. A tanky fiora who now takes 2 seconds to kill each player instead of 1 second, but is 4X tankier becomes dumb. Tank items will get nerfed again, not because tanks are OP, but because Sylas, Akali, Fiora, Camile will build tank items. Until they decide to remove some BS mechanics from their most popular champs, tank items can never be remotely efficient.

[@TheSorrowfulAngel]

It's not that they are overloaded, the problem is the shape of damage atm. If a bruiser fiora takes 2s to kill instead of 1, her damage output is the problem, not her durability. For example~ Optimally, fiora needs to proc 3~ish vitals to kill a squishy. To do that, she needs to be durable(to survive for as long in a skirmish/tf), but her upfront burst needs to be lower.

[@ignacioperez5479]

​@@TheSorrowfulAngel the most remembered tank meta was damage champions building sunfire cape, spirit Visage and iceborn gauntlet. Yasuo, Fizz, ekko, akali, diana

[@TheSorrowfulAngel]

@@ignacioperez5479 That depends on how long you've played league ^^"

[@ignacioperez5479]

@@TheSorrowfulAngel i started back in season 3/4 (i remember the log in screen being aatrox)

[@TheSorrowfulAngel]

@@ignacioperez5479 Huh. Well, you should remember cinderhulk meta then.

[@dishonored6116]

Tank items do suck but that's because they nerfed lots of heavy resist options. Another issue is that, you can survive for a bit while building armor (if no armor pen on enemies). Meanwhile, building magic resist feels like it hardly matters. Stacking magic resist literally feels pointless.

[@mrnoblemonkey8401]

I like to play juggernauts and always found it weird that assassin items worked better then tank items in a lot of cases.

[@AzafureKayn]

can you be accepting of tiamat / hydra on kayn and adjust the champ accordingly instead of removing his crutch item :(

[@lucashodges5134]

ngl im kinda confused bro admits tank items are the worst in the game, and then he also says they are buffing armor/magic pen, AND the buffed cleaver so you can shred armor faster. ??????

[@dirtydard4870]

Tank items aren't bad against bruisers. They're bad against mages and ADC

[@Archedgar]

200 years of development experience bro. Remember, as they in rito HQ; Riot Games works in mysterious ways. Amen.

[@yeah-yeah2249]

@@dirtydard4870 but the pen items phreak mentioned are ADC and mage items...

[@dirtydard4870]

@@yeah-yeah2249 but you mentioned Black Cleaver....

[@yeah-yeah2249]

@@dirtydard4870 not the same person

[@aster011]

I guess its really hard for Riot to admit that removing active from Botrk was a mistake, and the best part is "we removed active because low elo players forget to click a button". No wonder they cant balance that item for years now...

[@emptyptr9401]

That can be a valid reason though. Many characters in lol have a problem where they are hard to balance bc their power level in low vs high elo is too different. Depending on which champions build an item, having an active on an item might make that problem worse. And bork is probably an item that is build by many chanps that have that problem. So that reason absolutely can be valid.

[@richardgesegnet5481]

Wildrift's version sucks bad. It's a passive timer of like 40 seconds for a crappy passive

[@einjharrelraca]

nah. a 10% max hp nuke, on top of what bork did, was obnoxious. do you REALLY want zed running around with a essentially free "delete 12% of your maximum health in this one point and click slow" button again? cause i really dont.

[@maseywat]

​@einjharrelraca you know it was op when assassins were building it

[@einjharrelraca]

@@maseywat not even just building it, but rushing it first item. lol

[@luccamaino4118]

Rabadon for mages, dawncore for peelers. Would be nice a must final item for tanks like those items

[@---ip3jr]

Jak'sho is supposed to be that item, maybe next split it'll be better.

[@ebobab9564]

​@@---ip3jr tbf Jaksho doesn't really do that because it barely makes you any tankier vs any enemy who have voidstaff/ldr/serylda Gargoyles used to be it because it gave you a shield so big that it almost didn't matter which attack you took because the shield would always be bigger. Jaksho would literally need to give you 200 armor+200 mr just for it to be barely useful vs ldr/serylda/void

[@LoLAjax]

Used to be gargoyles

[@jeromefeliciano4611]

@@ebobab9564i miss stoneplate

[@HuebertEllowit-LOL]

Old cinderhulk haha

[@seamusrichardson5601]

Tank items suck and I know that because you cannot rationalize a 5 AD team doing lethal damage within 5 seconds to a full build ornn.

[@tupacshakur5868]

Almost every ad champ deals ap or true damage aswell

[@naakuallotey2931]

Dont forget max health ​@@tupacshakur5868

[@aldroydf35]

I mean, for tank items you have like, rookern, warmog, thornmail, sunfire, jak'sho and maybe frozen heart and maaaaybe heartsteel, so it's more than fair saying tank items suck

[@revyrev28]

Don't let iron andy hear you say that...

[@tank1503]

am i tweaking, what makes heartsteel maybe a tank item, it gives like the most health in the game right?

[@ebobab9564]

@@tank1503 You could have legit 50k hp and you would still lose the 1v1 vs a champion with bork as their only dmg item (unless you're chogath because your R damage scales of hp, so you would actually oneshot them)

[@LoLAjax]

@@tank1503it’s not built by most tanks anyway. It’s only really consistently built on Mundo who is a juggernaut and turns that hp into dmg and not tankiness. Other than that there’s kench who’s again using it for more dmg and not really tankiness

[@munchiemunchie5226]

​@@revyrev28Only Tahm, Sion, Mundo and Zac ever build and it not much nowadays because they all have better items.

[@tesserax8183]

Tank items have to suck because Riot is stupid af and keeps making tanks that do damage scaling with tanky stats. Make tanks do terrible damage if you want to make them tanky, a full tank champ shouldn't be able to one shot anyone.

[@Archedgar]

That's how it used to be but rito said that was impossible to balance. Tanks did miserable dmg but had way better disruption & natural durability. Sejuani2 is a great example of this; Sej2's ult was an AoE stun, and her perma-frost was a follow-up, similar to twitch's expunge, that she could use after the ult for a 70% slow for 1.5 seconds. It was fantastic initiation, but the dmg was total crap. Sej was reworked into Sej3 and her AoE slow follow-up was gone, her AoE stun was gone, her passive's resists are a fraction of what they used to be...... however, her kit has more dmg than it used to. Just apply this to all tanks in the game but without a rework and that's what rito did. Literally the opposite of what you're saying.... no idea wtf they were thinking. Rammus taunt used to be 3 seconds and powerball [Q] slow lasted 2 seconds, not 1. It was also way faster. You get what I'm saying? you are right, but this is a problem that rito has been cultivating for many years. Like idiots, they keep doubling down and making things worse.

[@singed54]

Tanks with no damage can be safely ignored, tanks never one shot but kill you over a period

[@tesserax8183]

@@singed54 It's a team game, tanks with no damage still provide CC and absorb damage just by sitting in front of their carries. Like, what do people not understand about this: tanks are meant to be tanky, not deal damage, they're meant to be SUPPORTS for the team. They're meant to absorb damage and hinder enemy aggression, control space, not 1v9 solo carry lmao. I swear, tank players who genuinely believe they should be able to 1v9 fights are the most delusional players and should literally just play a juggernaut like Aatrox instead.

[@Skywollfs]

Lets say mathematically tank items are worse than items for other roles. The issue with making item changes like this is because you are ignoring the other side of the equation, champion power. Since tanks have highest base damage/stats it is reasonable for their items to be weaker to bring them inline with the rest of the game. If they are going to overbuff tank items we are going to have a similar situation like we had before where you had sunfire/iceborn fizz ekko + all tanks being meta. Champion power being ignored in this change is a critical error and a fundamental flaw which makes these changes and any effort put towards it a bad decision at its core. The reason why tank meta is bad is because tanks are not skill expressive characters and that is fine. A tank is something you go to fill in for your team or if you are autofilled in a position which makes you still useful even with less skill. By making tanks the strongest characters in the game you remove all agency from skill expressive champions/players and reward less skilled players.

[@TheSorrowfulAngel]

Tanks(or rather, melees in general) having the highest base stats is due to actually needing those high base stats. If all their items are weaker because of their base stats, then its like they do not have such high base stats in the first place. The goal of giving them high base stats is not to make them the "same" power as everyone else, it is to give them more power than everyone else - which they require by virtue of being melees without assassin levels of mobility and disengaging tools. That said, base damage on tank abilities is quite high atm. And it is so high, because tanks are not durable enough throughout the game... it's a band-aid to keep them relevant, pretty much. If tank items did their job better and tanks wouldnt almost be bursted in fights, their base damage could come down again... idea being that tanks kill you slower than before, but have the durability to back that up. Also, saying that tank metas are bad due to skill expression is a weird take. I mean, tank metas are bad for certain reasons(enjoyment most of all). And while there are many tanks that are not that high on skill expression, we've got quite a few tanks with high skillcaps these days

[@Skywollfs]

@@TheSorrowfulAngel sensible answer. i was high when i wrote that

[@Archedgar]

There hasn't been a tank meta since season 6 back during cinderhulk glory days, lmao. Fefs like you talking about 'MUH TANK META' + preak being in charge of balancing are the reason tanks are over-nerfed & have been weak for so long.

[@Archedgar]

*>"Tank items suck"* *>".... that's why we're making it easier to shred armor with black cleaver"* /slow clap Well done, Mr lead balance developer. 200 years of development experience on display here 4 shur.

[@jeromefeliciano4611]

Cuz its in a bad state design rn. Mr items is so good against all ap comps while armor items sucks against all ad comps. You can just buy one mr item against a full ap comp and you will win. While on ad there’s different kind of ad that its hard to itemize for them well. As for cleaver its just a QoL buff that doesn’t affect the whole Cleaver users.

[@Archedgar]

@@jeromefeliciano4611 That's entirely my point.... preak fkked up tank itemization and is only making it worse.

[@jeromefeliciano4611]

@@Archedgar phreak wasn’t even in the balance team when the current tank item are in or created. It was already a problem ages ago and now it is being addressed.

[@Archedgar]

@@jeromefeliciano4611 He has been a rito member from the beginning, shill. Even in S0 he was involved with the balance team. Shill.

[@jeromefeliciano4611]

@@Archedgar ??? He was just put in balance team last year. He was just doing patch rundowns and the champion spotlight guy from the previous seasons and has no control over what is changing during those times.

[@KD-_-]

I wonder if these changes will fix Vayne's power level or make her even worse. Usually nerfing all the ADCs and buffing tanks means Vayne gets to shine in ADC role.

[@einjharrelraca]

Eh. Adcs in botlane are still going to feel like dogshit. There just isnt anything you can do about solo laners being handed 3-6k gold in stats for free, via level lead.

[@Timeforspas12]

That's a good thing.

[@igobyvax]

​@@einjharrelracathats why i love THE JOY UNBOUND

[@TheSorrowfulAngel]

@@einjharrelraca Yeah, I sometimes wonder if duo laning should be better on xp. But its a really complex topic. Personally, I think supports are the main reason ADC felt bad for so long. Way too many low utility/ damage supps are around these days and supports are just so, so strong in lane.

[@markmartin2819]

NOO TANKS ARE OP!!!! I BLIND PICKED YASUO INTO MALPHITE AND I COULDN'T KILL HIM IN LANE!!!! MY CHAMP SHOULD WIN BECAUSE IT HAS MORE ANIMATIONS AND MORE BUTTONS TO PRESS!!!!!

[@IIIlIl]

Since he says he believes but isn't 100% sure @ 9:25 can someone confirm if it's true one server tick is the same as one 30th of a second/one frame?

[@stefanristic9245]

I mean i dont think any of us can really confirm it you need to ask like august or someone who works at riot games

[@TheSorrowfulAngel]

@@stefanristic9245 Someone more tech savvy probably could tbh.

[@mrnoblemonkey8401]

Simplifying and toning down items is gonna make the game so much better

[@sphyx_4356]

buff tank items nerf tank dmg

[@yGKeKe]

This is either going to be a great change for the overall game, or an unmitigated disaster that makes stat check champions unkillable. I'm willing to bet it's another tank meta like the start of every season before this one and champions like K`Sante are just going to steam roll everyone.

[@Archedgar]

There hasn't been a tank meta since season 3. Don't be a joke.

[@naakuallotey2931]

The real tank meta was s3 or 6. "Tanks metas" nowadays are just brainlets who dont itemise correctly against tanks and complain or ppl who dont realise a fighting a fed player while behind doesn't make their class broken. U are just behind

[@TaconIStenen]

That phrase, tank meta… I don’t think you know what it means.

[@ignacioperez5479]

​@@Archedgarseason 6? When You saw yasuo, ekko, Fizz and company building sunfire, gauntlet and Visage? Or was it season 5?

[@Archedgar]

@@ignacioperez5479 Which one of those is a tank exactly? oh that's right. None. Calling an assassin meta a 'tank meta' is rito tier BSing.

[@tosfriendly]

tank items "suck" cause you gave every tank DAMAGE scaling off DEFENSIVE stats. It does not matter if a thank item has shit stats if every tank has +30% more armor passiv in his kit somewhere.

[@hugocoolerkanalsmal3172]

TRUE

[@boyaramjosian3976]

You are wrong for the simple reason that resistances are logarithmic. So the more resistances you have, the less effective they become. Having +30% or +60% resistances does not matter as you get only a 5% damage reduction if you build tank. It only boosts your mid-game and your laning phase after your first or second back. If you consider the fact that LDR and other anti-tank items are all really good in your first 3 items, and the fact that tanks have a weak laning phase (and don't say it isn't true,the stats show it for top lane and jungle. Bot lane is out of the question as it is a rotation meta between different types of supports). Now, about the damage-yes, tanks have damage, it's to give them agency. The only way for a tank to be relevant in a PvP game such as League is to be a threat. In the game, you have two ways to be a threat in team fights, which are the situations where tanks are supposed to matter: CC and damage. You might say to just focus on CC, but too bad, carries have survivability and CC. If tanks only have CC, why not just play Cassiopeia or TF all the time? They have really strong CC and damage, so they are more impactful. Everybody would like tanks to be just tanks, but that would make them more irrelevant than a Yuumi as a member of a team. Also, remember that they need to lane or clear jungle, so they need decent clear and the ability to contest a lane/camps to get gold and XP. So they need more than just CC; otherwise, GG, better pick Aatrox next time. So the solutions would be: 1. Remove all CC from the game that isn't on a tank, and all carries would cry, or 2. Change the way damage and resistance work in the game for EVERYTHING (minions, objectives, on-hit effects, jungle, turrets), and it would take too much time for the same result as a buff.

[@Mil1nk]

@@boyaramjosian3976 no they do not become less effective. Only relative strength relating to hp becomes worse.

[@kf532]

​@@boyaramjosian3976 tanks needing the DMG to kill you as fast as they do is literally mostly a league thing in terms of mobas. Their items are usually extremely selfish and they don't make a lot of aura/counter items so their only agency is going to be DMG and cc while becoming a stat stick. League just doesn't have the same base for tanks to do well without massive damage.

[@BorkBigFrighten2]

​@boyaramjosian3976 The "more resistances you buy the less effective it becomes" is a myth. If I have 0 Armor and buy a 100 Armor item, that reduces the phys damage was I taking before purchasing the item by 50%. If I have 100 Armor and buy an item that gives me 100 Armor, it reduces the physical danage I was taking before I got the item by 50%. The argument lies in the effectiveness of buying more Armor *versus getting more Health.* If I have an option to make myself 75% tankier from 2 Armor items or 50% tankier *then* 25% tankier from buying Armor and Health items, it is better to take the latter because of multiplicative scaling.

[@KolomalakasPoutanas]

He played Ornn and lost I guess

[@shinkii5819]

Riot cares about top omfg this is crazy

[@DHBFISN]

What are ranged champs whose best rush option is botrk supposed to do tho like can we please stop nerfing vayne pls pls pls

[@seamusrichardson5601]

if they are buffing tanks vayne will naturally become a better pick because there will be more tanks to fight.

[@naakuallotey2931]

How low elo is this take. Bork is not anti tank. The moment ur at 40 to 50 percent hp its doing no Damage. An adc at 50 percent hp is much easier to kill than an pure tank at 50 percent hp. Bork only counters pure hp builds but only sett and mundo do that. And sett has w and myndo full heald so bork is useless anyway. Black cleaver, ldr, or armour pen and magic pen are anti tank. There's ur problem to begin with. And vayne negates tackiness generally. Buffing tanks buffs vayne.

[@DHBFISN]

​@@naakuallotey2931 u spittin honestly

[@naakuallotey2931]

@DHBFISN thx man half the game is just itemisation. If u do it right it makes the game much easier for yourself

[@remotenightowl]

Right before Worlds to. That's crazy.

[@prestonbaker3212]

As a tank player... tank items "at least 60% of them don't suck.... a correct analysis would be... tank items WITHOUT tank passives, and stat growth SUCK.... making building tank items on squishier champs like pantheon, darius etc feel less valuable because even though you need it sometimes you don't gain power into your own gameplay as a tank like mundo, or, k'sante gain for building hp and armors.... they actually get stronger and hurt more and get faster through these scalings.... other champs don't meaning tank items are largely gatekept from bruiser champions who often want or need to build tank style because of enemy/team comp or build path of either.... in that regard they suck but tank items on tanks with their passives and scaling are ridiculous strong.... easily stronger item value than any adc, and most hyper carrys excluding the wind shit brothers. A movement to have more power in the tank item and less in the tank passives that benefit from the raw hp and armor in too many ways.

[@ebobab9564]

Can't wait to read what the silvers are cooking in the comments For sure Phreak is the reason why they are 700 games stuck in silver.

[@Mirro18]

Scroll up and you got a guy seriously thinking Phreak has been the shadow government of Riot Games since day one, so... go read it. As a treat :)

[@TheSorrowfulAngel]

@@Mirro18 Wha... People man... they are wild.

[@NielsO-t3v]

Funny how Phreak talks about the cleaver change BUT IT DOESNT FUCKING WORK. BOTRK? 1 stack.... Udyr q? 1 stack...

[@Mirro18]

Bork is an item onhit and never worked before previously. Not sure about Udyr Q but Bork never was included in that interaction.

[@NielsO-t3v]

@@Mirro18 Phreak literally says in the video that if you buy botrk it should give an extra cleave stack man

[@yttrends9300]

i told you guys it's not fair black cleaver only stack 2 times for senna n other champs with 2 on hits items or passives no. so they changing it again next patch to do that

[@miruajin6448]

Ngl, i like variety and I’m not insistent on marksmen bot, so, hopefully, I can play some other champs in the duolane- tanks even

[@mampfredh.992]

Didn't they remove mythic items because they wanted more build diversity? Now they force items into specific slots and kinda remove the "diverseness" from builds because they make every item lean heavily into a niche?

[@miruajin6448]

I think they keep changing how the feel about things.. it’s kinda weird But idk, I like variety, so the less complex a game goes (in ways of fixed item, mandated purchase order or even assumed role assignments like adc must go bot…) make me feel the games going stale

[@KD-_-]

They want to go back to random champs situationally building a full blown tank item or 2. Darius used to pick up Randuins in older seasons before damage creep.

[@wondarx2685]

it'll last for a couple of days and then nothing

[@Frightning]

Tank items don't suck, tank champions suck, because they're not allowed to get *any* scaling damage from their typical itemization so while their base damage is decent early on in the game. Later on, the do *no* meaningful damage and at a certain point, them being even tankier doesn't matter because either their team's damage dealers survive and kill the enemy damage dealers, or they don't and no amount of tank stats in the world will matter when you have insufficient damage to kill anyone in a fight. They need scaling damage based on their defenses put into whatever parts of their kit do damage over time and is *not* frontloadable (this frontload damage problem is why riot usually avoids giving tanks damage, if they can frontload too much of it, they start doing the job of mages and of tanks at once and that is pretty obviously imbalanced.

[@seamusrichardson5601]

With the exception of support tanks, every solo lane tank in the game has some sort of built in scaling off of tank stats. Chogath's ult scales with bonus health, Mundo turns bonus health into bonus AD, Galio's passive damage scales with MR, Ksante's Q, W, and R damage all scale with tank stats, Maokai's E scales with health, Malphite's W and E scale with armor, Ornn's E damage scales off of resistances, Rammus turns Armor into on-hit and reflect damage, Sejuani's W damage scales with health, Shen's E damage scales with health, Sion's W damage scales with health, Skarner's Q and E scale with his health, Tahm Kench's passive and Q scale with health, and Zac's Q scales with health. Even amongst support tanks, Taric's E scales with armor, Rell's E scales with her health, and Braum's Q scales with health. The only non-support tank in the ENTIRE GAME that I could find (and she isnt even really a tank she is more of a bruiser) that did not have damage scaling with her own defensive stats was poppy. I really dont know where you're getting the idea that tanks get no damage scaling from their tank items/stats.

[@Frightning]

@@seamusrichardson5601 Most of those scalings are incredibly poor (K'Sante is a notable exception and is a really good champion partly because of this) and you also skipped over several jungle tank examples of having no scalings, like Amumu for instance has 0 offensive scalings w/ his tank stats (his W would a nice place to have some imo, since it's DoT). Also part of the reason those tanks are solo lane tanks is *because* they at least have some scaling with their defenses and also because Sunfire Aegis/Hollow Radiance exist to give them the waveclear they need to actually be able to farm and trade damage well enough in lane to not get ran over by scaling damage dealers during laning phase.

[@seamusrichardson5601]

@Frightning the scalings are bound to be lower numbers than offensive champions, tanks are not meant to be able to kill you in one or two rotations, they are meant to kill you over the course of many. I assure you that you do not want tanks to be scaling damage as hard as bruisers.

[@Frightning]

@@seamusrichardson5601 Correct, but they have an irrelevant amount of damage past 15 minutes especially beyond 20. Class feels bad to play because of it, completely dependent on allies to do anything (enchanters have this problem too, but they're a little better off in that they do scale *somewhat*, issue w/ enchanters is that their items are what actually suck more so than the champion's scalings for many of them at least). The right now tank DPS is so low later in the game that despite there impressive mitigation even 10% LS on an auto-attacking fighter is enough that they easily net heal off of said tank, let alone an ADC w/ BT and anti-tank items (who should at least be winning that fight handily, granted). Tank dps doesn't scale well enough as they're crutching pretty hard on Sunfire Aegis and Hollow Radiance to even have enough at 10 minutes into the game.

[@seamusrichardson5601]

@@Frightning I'd like to see the evidence of your poor damage claims to be completely honest with you. It does not seem like we're playing the same game.

[@tonyluiscomedy]

Hey man idc if u change up tank items to be better but I would really like it if they at least die in a reasonable amount of time and dont demolish my healthbar.

[@naakuallotey2931]

Ppl who do that tend to be juggernauts amd skirmishes who build tank items woth some damage items and masquerade as tanks. Case in point mundo or mordeskaier or illaoi. Definitely illaoi

[@dylanhelvetios2300]

Watch IE not getting nerfed

[@Timeforspas12]

amén

[@ryukoysusei]

I find it funny that people forget that tank items aren't as strong because tanks were 100-0'ing carries with no damage buit.

[@Archedgar]

Which tank can do that while building tank items? maybe ksante before he was balanced down to normal..... also, DRM is not a tank.

[@RobotboyX2]

the reason tanks deal so much dmg is because they die so quickly, its kinda the reason why aatrox often prefers lethality. u may be alive for a short time, but u make a big impact in that time. in the past tank items were really strong and tanks could 1v1 adcs but would easily need 30s+ to do so, which is okay imo, adcs shouldnt be able to contest tanks in sidelane, thats why fighters exist

[@yeah-yeah2249]

@@ryukoysusei who are these "tanks" ?

[@user-bc7fe4ep8k]

@@Archedgar Malphite, Zac, Mundo... off the top of my head.

[@Airmez]

This was literally never a thing stop coping

[@Andy-xd5dj]

But will they nerf the chempions that gain more defensive stats from items or damage from tank stats along with them? You know how it goes

[@saesteelol6156]

i feel like there is a problem where when tank items are good bruisers will end up building them to much and then they look op

[@tristannottrysten]

what bruiser buys tank items? The only thing i can think of is Irelia building frozen heart, and Dead man's on some bruisers like garen and darius. If bruisers do buy tank items, its either because the game is too damage-y to the point bruisers are super squishy, or that tank item is just broken, and even Yi or Viego can build it

[@bohomazdesign725]

Thats not a problem. Thats how it should be. Bruisers have 3 - 4 subclasses (from tankiest to squishiest): Tank Juggernauts - 0 to 1 damage item into full Tank (Sion, Mundo etc) Bruiser Juggernauts - 1 to 2 damage items into full Tank (Darius, Illaoi, Yorick, Olaf, Yorick etc) Divers - 3 to 4 damage items into 1 to Tank items (Camille, WuKong, Vi, J4 etc) Skirmishers - 4 to 5 damage items into 0 to 1 Tank items (Fiora, Riven, Viego etc) Right now we are in a situation were champions like Darius build up to 4 damage items causing him to oneshot squishies instead of fulfilling his role of being an annoying drain-tanking menace. The reason for this is that Tank items dont give enough survivability, so naturally if you cant tank anything you turn to damage, because offense becomes now your best defense. And there are some champs that completely turned away from Tank and Bruiser items like Yorick and Aatrox which also indicates that Bruiser items are also not in a good spot (those are also very poorly designed - to many anti-burst items with to little generic sustain items that are on top of that very situational and / or can be used by a very small amount of champions). The Bruiser class is a really wide class with various needs that uses a really wide spectrum of items. And as it stand right now all the subclasses use 1 to 2 Tank items less than they are supposed to. Tank items become a problem when they are good enough for Marksmen and Mages to build. A KogMaw or Varus building JakSho is not ok. Azir or Ryze building Frozen Heart is not ok.

[@lessgoo3428]

​@@bohomazdesign725perfectly said.

[@gcfdyt]

​@@bohomazdesign725Very good comment! 💪

[@richardgesegnet5481]

Gotta put the speed at .75 just to understand wtf he saying

[@lacez3590]

A R M O U R 👏🏾👏🏾 say it till it rings in your head when you sleep folks. ARMOUR SUCKS. Not MR ffs

[@Maxah333]

League just feels like a cheap knockoff of what it used to be. They keep talking about these great changes that will fix the game and just end up making the gameplay more and more stale.

[@csgofr0sty89]

Tank items suck because you guys keep trying to force damage into them instead of being actual tank items

[@naakuallotey2931]

Yh but then the adcs and mages will start crying.

[@JustShotsForMeh]

@@naakuallotey2931 ADCs and mages actually cry about getting folded in half by tanks, they never cried about getting their damage blocked.

[@TheSorrowfulAngel]

@@JustShotsForMeh Oh, they do cry about that. I mean, ADCs, mages and assassins always lose the tank 1v1s. RIght now, they lose them very quickly but the tanks actually take damage. Used to be that they lost much slower, but tanks took less damage. They cried about that back then, too. If tanks were just tanky with zero damage, zero threat to them... only then would they be happy. Because they think this is an mmo and tanks in mmo dont deal damage(except in pvp, but who cares lol).

[@TaconIStenen]

Tanks need damage to make sure they aren’t projailed. If tanks don’t have damage, they will either have lower CDs to rotate spells more often or have longer lasting CC, both of which skew them towards proplay and away from average players.

[@marufawal]

Tank meta 2.0 incoming

[@ibrahim5463]

i am really not excited for these changes

[@Timeforspas12]

Tank items sucks for a Reason. Tanks in league deal a lot of base damage. Imagine dealing damage AND being durable... This whole thing about reworking tank items to be better screams nightmare fuel.

[@عليمولايونعمالمولى]

tanks are fine, when they used to have op items like sunfire aegis the game was so bad and so unfun, tanks tanking 5 people for a while shouldn't be a thing like what used to happen, I remember that happened once in a pro game a few years ago where an ornn tanked the whole in their top redside jungle and left with like 25%+ hp

[@stefanristic9245]

Balance is completely tailored for champs this man wants to play dude abused mao to get to gm nerfed it and was like "BOooOOoOOoO I aM hIgH eLo" he mustve played ksante and got fked by garen fiora or camille

[@diogoafonso3660]

Bro seething and coping like Phreak himself fucked his mother

[@yeah-yeah2249]

he's not a toplaner.

[@Ceade_]

im fine with tanks being the weakest because non-support tanks all do damage and do not tank

[@KD-_-]

They're building damage though

[@BorkBigFrighten2]

​@@KD-_-What Tanks are building damage??

[@Archedgar]

@@BorkBigFrighten2 He probably means AP Malphite..... but if anything AP Malphite only shows how terrible his tank builds have become that for a lot of platyers he is now known more for building AP than building tank.

[@Ceade_]

@@Archedgar i mean tanks building tank items do damage

[@Archedgar]

@@Ceade_ Every character does damage.

[@Collektor1]

tank items are fucking broken. how you study this game all day and know nothing about it

[@madobricktw6969]

tank items would be chill if ldr wasnt the most broken op item in the game

[@rosediomond4661]

LDR is outclassed by Mortal Reminder rn wdym

[@KD-_-]

Ldr is bad though? It has no item passive.

[@einjharrelraca]

Ldr is dog shit right now? The fuck? Its litterally just a worse voidstaff now, and that item is DOOOOOOG SHIT.

[@monkey3101]

Can’t wait for tanks to stat check bruisers into the ground in new split

[@diamondhyena5631]

Ya bro Maokai is totally gonna 1 v 1 Darius now that he gets 10 more armor on an item

[@einjharrelraca]

More like bruisers and assassins are all going to build tank items, once again, because that issue never got addressed, and riot just obliterated tank items to save their 2 favorite classes.

[@monkey3101]

@@einjharrelraca yeah THEY KNOW THAT TANK ITEMS GET POACHEDB UT BUFF THEM WHAT IDIOTS THEY ARE

[@thomaspereira1545]

Tank items suck 🤣🤣 thats a funny joke

[@nicoseaton4567]

I dont care if tanks are weak. They take the fun out of the game so just leave them in the dirt

[@mikeholkis2881]

It is unacceptable to have this bad of an understanding of the game when this is your day to day job.

[@stefanristic9245]

I agree hes stupidly overcomplicating things while wanting to climb himself and when you put those 2 things together you get a balance team lead who tailors changes to his liking

[@christtwitch4013]

So wait a minute phrek. Dont tell me u just nerfed on hit items and buffed tank items LooooL on hit items are already sht nobody builds them anymore and u just nerfed them and then buffed tanks the only class to which on hit items should be effective against. Jesus christ who the fk gave u that job

[@stefanristic9245]

Buddy bork is a core item on irelia yasuo yone kalista kog maw yi etc. The only champs that dont build it who should are adcs like miss lucian caitlyn but they dont care anyway because of how strong their crit items are already i mean they can just go ldr if they really feel like they have to and problem solved the old version of work was even weaker than this one item is still very much in its unbalanced statw