Pickleball! Why Do Some Players Play Down While Others Play Up in Tournaments? Is It Fair?

In this video, a team that has a tremendous amount of power. Actually, they have a great overall game, but, choose power most of the time to win points. Check it out.

[@tanthony3895]

Every tournament I have played in without exception, has suffered from sandbaging. This is a horrible practice that has to stop because it is ruining tournaments for players all over the country. The reason these people sandbag is so they can go capture metals and feed their misdirected ego. It is a scourge on the sport of pickleball and has to stop.

[@pickleballpick-apart9787]

I agree. But, what is the solution?

[@tanthony3895]

@@pickleballpick-apart9787 I was a professional in the recreation industry for many years and part of the solution would be to have teams sign up at their perceived level, participate in pool play and then dependent upon the results of pool play, they would be put in the appropriate brackets in accordance with their scores. They could still sandbag to a degree but it would be a lot less likely. Most tournament directors either don't want to take the time to have to build out complete new brackets or they don't have the knowledge and how to do it in a quick short time period. That's the downside to my method is it would take more time and effort on behalf of the tournament directors. Right now what they do, is leave the teams in there registered skill level and have them compete from pool play into brackets the entire way. That is the main issue in how tournaments are structured with pickleball now. It makes sand bagging easily achievable. In summary, register at your desired level, compete in pool play, take those results and then build complete new brackets which may move many teams up and down in their levels. This would provide for more accurate and fair competition.

[@charlesmuller120]

The guy in black was just a solid 3.5 nothing more. He was hogging her side on baseline shots and I'm sure they talked about that strategy probably because she's not consistent back there. It's not like he was some stud 5.0 sandbagging. The other 3 players were mediocre 3.5s or solid 3.0s.

[@pickleballpick-apart9787]

Thanks for watching and thanks for your comments.

[@henry0712]

As a relative newbie, I think that the guy in black is playing down, and that the opposing team is a couple of frustrated 3.5s. The lady in green did a good job of getting out of her partner's way and might be a 3.5, as well. Another great pick-apart video!

[@pickleballpick-apart9787]

Thanks for watching, your comment and the compliment.

[@AnnMitt]

This team mismatch reminds me of how nearly every open play feels at a "premiere club" that I currently belong to (not for long, though). When two players are 3.5 and the other two are 2.9, there is no way to have a decent game. It's complete frustration and causes pop-ups and smash downs.

[@pickleballpick-apart9787]

It can. If I do that, I just try to work on some shots I'm trying to develop. Thanks for watching.

[@deanjohnston7176]

completely agree with your analysis here. And the tournament entry is based on self-rating, especially if it was their 1st tournament. I need to go learn about this DUPR system.

[@pickleballpick-apart9787]

Most players have a higher opinion of their ability than they actually have. LOL! Thanks for watching.

[@mattc3581]

The guy in black here, I wouldn't say was that strong, not clearly 4.0+ playing down, he hits some nice shots but hits quite a few bad ones as well. The pair on the nearside have some more advanced tactics worked out, stacking etc, which you don't see that much at 3.5 level, so that is a little deceiving. Someone else in these posts has said his partner in green was or is actually a 4.5 rating which seems even less realistic. Again she seemed reasonable, but not great. Having said that the DUPR ratings are somewhat of a mess I feel, so it's hard to say. The system is supposedly gender neutral, therefore a 3.5 man should play at the same standard as a 3.5 woman. There shouldn't be any need for him crossing over to take shots on her side because she would be just as strong as him. In reality I think men at a similar rating are much stronger than the women right now. This won't even out unless you have thousands and thousands of games with men vs women to even out the relative ratings, so it may take a while.

[@pickleballpick-apart9787]

Your best comment is, the dupr ratings are somewhat of a mess. Good point about how a 3.5 woman should be equal to a 3.5 man, according to dupr.

[@dmills7375]

Even if they were both 3.5, one might be stronger than the other. When it comes to tournaments, expecting a 50/50 split on shots is asking to get beat. Got to play to strengths. Granted, he went to the extreme, but you do what you gotta do.

[@FAZEGSAUCE]

The lady in green is rated 4.52 on DUPR I partnered with her at 4.5 PPA Seattle she is def not lower then 4.5

[@pickleballpick-apart9787]

That's the problem with players like her. If she's 4.5, as you say she is, why is she playing at the 3.5 level? Regardless, the way she played in this game is not at the 4.5 level.

[@charlesmuller120]

wow, I guess I would be a 5.5 out on the west coast.

[@keithchasteen8593]

Tournament entry is based on self-ratings, not DUPR ratings. If DUPR ratings were required for these tournaments, then there may not be so much sandbagging.

[@pickleballpick-apart9787]

Thanks.

[@kenlocke9806]

I think the loosing team ( lady with the white top ) made the male opponent looked better than what he really is. I say this male player is a 3.75, but not a 4.0. This guy’s back hand is ok, but could be a weak spot. The loosing team could have exploited that, but their service return leaked depth and purpose, that’s why the other team could bang on it mercilessly. The lady in green dress actually is pretty good, I believe she is a solid 3.5. The loosing team is closer to a 3.0 than a 3.5.

[@pickleballpick-apart9787]

Thanks for watching and thanks for your comment. I'm going to stick to my opinion that the lady in green is 3.0. She may be a 3.5 bodybuilder. LOL.

[@kenlocke9806]

Thank you for your response, I still think the lady in green is a better player than 3.0. She was over shadowed by the strong partner, she didn’t get to show her skill, she is well coached, she has the split steps, she move up appropriately, she is always in the ready position. Her serve always solicits a short reply. I don’t mind playing with her as my partner.

[@pickleballpick-apart9787]

Good points. I guess she just didn't get enough opportunities to show off her ability. @@kenlocke9806

[@dmills7375]

Good analysis!

[@johanmeijer133]

The losing team made a lot of short second shot returns. These are easy to put away with a little drive, as the guy in black did.

[@pickleballpick-apart9787]

Thanks for watching. Good point. Shallow returns are very attackable.

[@jonk6137]

Everyone in tournaments play down…I played gamma Pittsburgh last week 3.5 and got smoked!!

[@pickleballpick-apart9787]

Not everybody, but a lot.

[@jonk6137]

@@pickleballpick-apart9787 I play up

[@Vanessa-pe2xs]

I played Gamma in Pitt, too. We didn't medal, but every match was close. I had a blast. I agree, sandbagging is so common now, people are actually preemptively sandbagging because expect to face other sandbaggers. haha

[@jonk6137]

@@Vanessa-pe2xs are you playing cranberry as well?

[@Vanessa-pe2xs]

@jonk6137 I didn't know about that one. When is it? May do Battle at Bridges.

[@garrett5532]

I'm not seeing the playing down in this case. Both men appear to be at a 3.5-3.99 level. I don't agree, as the consistency for 4.0+ play and decision-making was lacking. I say they're both near 4.0, while the women may be playing up, if anything.

[@pickleballpick-apart9787]

Thanks for watching and thanks for your comment.

[@mattc3581]

Yeah, where I play we have games with a bunch of say 3.7 to low 4.x players and they look a lot better than this. Less errors, less popups, etc. just generally way more consistent play. Don't know how much ratings can vary by area and such, but this doesn't look like it would be winning a 3.5 tournament where I am.

[@gregmusselman7466]

Hey thats my boy! Neil and susan are so good

[@pickleballpick-apart9787]

Thanks for watching.

[@ralphparker]

I don't think the guy is a 4.0. So he didn't play down. The others could be just tired too and making mistakes.

[@pickleballpick-apart9787]

Tired? I think you're giving them a break.

[@ralphparker]

@@pickleballpick-apart9787 Yea, You are right. However, I played in a tournament about 4 years ago and the men's doubles was in the morning and the mix doubles in the afternoon. I had 6 games in the morning and 9 games in the afternoon. I was beat at the end. But it was a great day.

[@pickleballpick-apart9787]

Understood. That's why I don't play in tournaments where I'd have to play men's and mixed on the same day. It might kill me. LOL!@@ralphparker

[@gregmusselman7466]

The guy is almost a 5.0 player

[@GrizSteve]

Forgive my ignorance, but is it possible as a team they are a 3.5 but individually 4.5 & 3.0. Are the groupings for tournaments by team rating or individual?

[@pickleballpick-apart9787]

Thanks for watching and thanks for your comment. That's not ignorant. I was kind of maybe thinking the same thing. The guy is 4.0 the girl is 3.0, so = 3.5. That's not the way it's supposed to work.

[@tammytaylor4310]

In tennis mixed it’s a combined rating of the players, maybe pickleball will adopt that.

[@robertw4196]

​@@tammytaylor4310I was thinking the same

[@robertw4196]

​@pickleballpick-apart9787 that's how it works in tennis. In pball, should they be playing 4.0 if they want to play together? The lady in Green would really struggle at 4.0.

[@ardynites1733]

Duc Nguyen? Nguyen the ball is going out!🤣

[@pickleballpick-apart9787]

Haha! That's pretty clever!

[@valeriepaul6348]

they are trying to hit it to the woman in green- but her partner covers 90% of the court

[@pickleballpick-apart9787]

Yes he does. Thanks for watching.

[@StewsReplay]

the weaker team NEVER adjusted from the backspin by the best player...it's silly how badly they play or don't recognize the spin shot.

[@pickleballpick-apart9787]

Good point. Thanks for watching.

[@dmills7375]

What should they have done?

[@StewsReplay]

@@dmills7375 Backspin means you have to hit the ball UP a little bit more than you would normally or it will just roll off your normal drive into the net. Watch each shot go into the net time after time. Then watch when the woman hits it to our heroes and see how their shots travel with no backspin from the opposing team.

[@dmills7375]

@@StewsReplay ah. That makes sense. I thought you were talking more about strategy than mechanics. 👍

[@StewsReplay]

@@dmills7375 same kinda thing. Your shot selection changes if you get a HEAVY backspin your way...a drive is a big risk. use that spin and continue it to his partner who won't expect the extra spin... I commonly do this. it works about 65% of the time.

[@SultanKhan66]

The far team should only hit to the woman in green and when the man in black goes to poach he's leaving an entire side open. Make him play both sides.

[@pickleballpick-apart9787]

Good point. Thanks for watching.

[@ohoffm1]

Another Pickleball pick-apart pick-apart for you: 1) You got the point at about the 55 second mark incorrect. You said that the guy was unable to return the drive but his shot hit the tape and rolled over for a winner. The serve changed hands afterwards as it should have. 2) You mentioned there is a small angle shot that they should be hitting to avoid the guy in black but failed to mention the other alternative which is go behind him and keep him from taking so much of the court. You can stop a poacher by hitting the ball to the court that they are leaving for their poaches also. 3) it is not uncommon in mixed for the male to be at a higher level than the female especially if spouses want to play together. With that skill gap it is difficult to decide what level to play at so often they just split the difference. The male has to do his best to protect the female that is going to be targeted

[@pickleballpick-apart9787]

All good points, especially when playing in a tournament. Thanks for watching.

[@dmills7375]

lol. He wasn’t protecting her from being targeted. He was basically playing singles. What little I saw of the woman In green, she had the ability to hold her own. I thought the same thing you did about keeping her partner honest by hitting behind him.

[@stewiegriffin3627]

If you're not going to force people to use their Dupr rating then maybe just a simple Beginner, Intermediate and advanced. With clearer guidelines in where you need to be playing.

[@pickleballpick-apart9787]

Good point. Thanks for watching.

[@PaddleReadyPickleball]

Guy in black is a 4.0+ in my opinion. I think the lady in green is a 3.5 or a little better. It hard to rate her on the video because her partner was taking all the shots. The other team guy 3.5 his partner 3.0.

[@pickleballpick-apart9787]

Thanks for watching and thanks for your opinion.

[@PickleballJoy]

My take is different. (Surprise!) Black male was clearly the strongest player, but Green lady is good, too. She was hitting some excellent screwball serves and made some impressive digs. She simply deferred to her stronger partner. (Which is why I dislike tournament Mixed. The Guys are really playing Singles too often.) White Sox seemed like an actual 3.5. He had a number of times where he wasn't properly positioned. White lady -- the weakest player on the court -- may have been "playing up." I would rate (noting this is just a single game): 4.5 Black 4.0 Green 3.5 White Sox 3.25 White

[@pickleballpick-apart9787]

Thanks for commenting. You are correct. In mixed, a lot of times the female player is targeted, just like in tennis.

[@datta85]

Rory is correct - the Male was definitely not 3.5 hit was too consistent, hit too many backhand spin drops to be considered 3.5 he is more 4.0 Other male was 3.5 Lady in green was a smart/strong 3.0 Other lady was a weak 3.0

[@PaulLossman]

The guy may be better than 3.5 but i don't think he is that much higher. Agree the other woman isnt 3.5 and he is taking advantage of her poor returns. Id consider myself 3.5 and id do the same.

[@pickleballpick-apart9787]

Thanks for your opinion and thanks for watching.

[@CWK090]

It's not uncommon, in mixed doubles play, for the guy (assuming he is the better player) to own 2/3 of the court, sometimes 3/4. Ben Johns and ALW is a good example. The lady in green is better than you are giving her credit for. Getting out of her partner's way and allowing him to take the shot should not be construed to be a weakness on her part. ALW does the exact same thing when playing with Ben and she is obviously a great player.

[@pickleballpick-apart9787]

Thanks for your comment and thanks for watching.

[@Largecanyondog]

The player in the black I the near court is a tennis player.

[@pickleballpick-apart9787]

Thanks for watching and thanks for your comment.