Pieter Levels - The Indie Hacker’s Guide to AI Startups

My guest today, Pieter Levels, claims that "Indie Hacking is dead." Yet, Pieter runs several indie AI startups (and a few traditional ones), totaling $250,000 in revenue every month. So, how can he be a successful indie hacker while dismissing the foundations of his work?
It turns out that Indie Hacking is very much alive. But it has changed significantly. And Pieter has been there from the early days.
Today, Pieter and I talk about what it means to be an Indie Hacker in the age of AI tools, platforms, and businesses. From dependency risk to preparing software businesses for a potential exit, we tackle a wide variety of topics that every Indie Hacker has to deal with. We also dive deep into Pieter's personal journey: from digital nomadism through thoughts of teaming up with fellow makers. You'll get the full picture of an entrepreneur who tells it the way he sees it - which, as you will find, has made the world of social media a very interesting place for him to work in.
With insights into the meme of bad coding, the Lindy Effect, the importance of social proof, and the generational divide regarding AI, this conversation with Pieter Levels is a must-listen for anyone interested in AI startups, indie hacking, and the future of digital entrepreneurship.
Pieter on Twitter: / levelsio
Pieter's projects: levels.io/projects/
00:00:00 Indie Hacking and AI Startups Evolution
00:07:17 Dependency on Suppliers and Finding Alternatives
00:16:37 Prioritizing Speed in Entrepreneurship Execution
00:27:11 Future of AI With Positive Outlooks
00:40:11 AI Business Challenges and Potential
00:44:52 Future Work and Travel With AI
00:52:56 Twitter Changes and the Need to Adapt
00:57:50 Attention Economy and Communication Impact
01:01:39 Navigating Controversy and Authenticity on Twitter
This episode is sponsored by Acquire.com
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[@starterstory]

5 years ago, Pieter inspired me to get started. He showed me it's possible that I could build a business from my laptop, and that business changed my life. This video will inspire thousands more

[@sweetlittlelies7317]

What business btw?

[@TheBootstrappedFounder]

Pieter inspired me, too. My own SaaS business exists because I saw him succeed. That allowed me to try, and it worked out pretty well.

[@Alwalou]

His talk today is not inspiring, it's disappointing

[@TheDamonChen]

We all inspired by Pieter 🙋‍♂

[@fintech1378]

@@Alwalou which talk of his is good? recommend

[@marc-lou]

Pieter's tweets were my psychiatrist during depression. He inspired me and tons of other makers to wake up and grind. Thanks Pieter ❤ And thanks Arvid for making this.

[@El_Diablo_12]

10:30 Pieter’s challenges with Python, Pip, Numpy 11:45 reaching personal limitations and needing to grow 15:20 SEO work 19:28 focus on getting customers to pay you, rather than your code elegance 23:30 do things by hand first, make money, then automate 28:00 using Subreddits to find good ideas 31:30 e/acc 34:00, 36:00 technologists being biased since we control the machines 39:40 Nomadlist generating 50-60k per month for most of a decade

[@DennisPing]

This 1 hour candid conversion is a gold mine. None of that corporate evangelism talk.

[@iliasjaddi]

Thank you Arvid for this great interview, I see kindness in your eyes every time you interview people so I’m very happy it’s you who is doing these interviews. I really like Pieter Levels, despite him having me blocked on twitter lol, I still think he is someone worth to learn a lot from and I love how his advice boils down to just have ideas, build them enough so you can validate, and then once the light is green, go all in. It might be interesting to bring Marc Lou to the podcast, I’d love to hear about his story 😙

[@TheBootstrappedFounder]

Aww, thanks! And yeah, he sure is opinionated and quick to block :D I'll talk to Marc, he's on my guest wishlost :D

[@sebastianescalante9855]

Starting this year, because of Pieter I decided to launch a business myself instead of waiting for cofounders like I did before. So grateful for his lessons. Thanks for the podcast Arvid, keep going!

[@Aash31]

I am also starting this year, would love to connect with you to talk about the same Sebastian

[@RodolphoArrudanogoogle]

Pieter is a big source of inspiration for me. Thanks for the interview.

[@KirillZubovsky]

Did you know Facebook was running PHP on their back end for the better part of first 10 years? First, PHP was what Zuck knew, and second, it was really easy to find PHP developers at a reasonable price. They only replaced the old code after achieving a massive, massive scale and the code just couldn't handle the performance anymore. Something to keep in mind when people question your tech stack.

[@Ke_Mis]

I just found out about this podcast, and it is awesome! :) As a solo-entrepreneur your podcast strikes the perfect balance between specific tech stuff and the business side of it! Good job man, keep on going!

[@TheBootstrappedFounder]

I really appreciate that!

[@rafidhoda]

ABSOLUTELY AMAZING! I've bookmarked this and I'll be revisiting it many times in the future! I'll also be sharing it with people :) Thank you so much for this gem, Arvid and Pieter!

[@TheBootstrappedFounder]

Thank you so much!

[@TravelingTice]

Thanks so much for the conversation! As a new "indie hacker" entering the scene, I felt quite daunted with the amount of "new" stuff we need to focus on like AI and TikTok. It can feel overwhelming and sometimes even like you "missed the wave". But hearing that things like SEO are still tried and true makes me feel reassured that working on "traditional" website-based applications without AI still can have a future I guess 😅 Will check out more episodes!

[@TheBootstrappedFounder]

All you need is open ears and a willingness to learn. Stuff changes so fast, and you'll never know it all, so sticking with what you know and slowly sprinkling the new is perfectly fine!

[@Xe054]

Wow, I'm so grateful this content exists in the world. I learned so much and feel inspired. Can't wait to watch your other videos. Thank you.

[@TheBootstrappedFounder]

So glad!

[@NikSydneyNolte]

He is THE best we have 👨🏼‍💻 Very glad that you had the chance to talk to him on camera 💪🏼🎥🎬🔥

[@TheBootstrappedFounder]

Me too, it was quite a joy to hear him think out loud!

[@all69anna]

Really good interview!! Thank you! Shared with my coder son, and I will rewatch for myself.

[@TheBootstrappedFounder]

Thank you!

[@filipgajtanovski9166]

Arvid Kahl, I love your podcast and I follow you on Spotify as well. I really enjoy the value you create and it's really inspiring! Bringing Pieter Levels as a guest is a huge win! Best of luck!!!

[@TheBootstrappedFounder]

I really appreciate this!

[@gabrielfono844]

Pietel inspire me to learn how to code and currently working as software engineer. I am currently building my first startup

[@mikewhit]

what's funny about Pieter is that almost no enterprise would hire him with the way he writes code lol.. but he gave me a great tip which is to screw CICD and develop directly on prod lol.. these are tricks he could consult for enterprises but based on my chats w him he could not contribute directly but man it's such a head trip once you walk away from enterprise code that does nothing.. and respect because the guy publishes all his stats and embodies the ethos of the individual contributor or individual anything being able to float a boat :)

[@indieBen]

Oh Arvid ! Did not know you Were on YT now 🔥 need to listen to this pod episode ❤

[@ksprdk]

Good stuff, both of you!

[@Andy-hs7ee]

Great interview!

[@matten_zero]

Thank you! @20:08. Ive been wondering why people say i need to learn other languages to build apps. Pytton is all I need

[@HazelLim-vr2uz]

“Indie hacking is dead” What an opening to get me to sit up and listen! 😅

[@filipgajtanovski9166]

he just used the idea of controversy, discussed at 01:00:00

[@andersnss9073]

will watch

[@joeslack]

LEVELS THE CHAMP !!!! 🔥🐐

[@LL-vs9gv]

Thanks for this very interesting and insightful interview. It feels so different but good to know levelsio as a real human being, rather than a twitter account.

[@TheBootstrappedFounder]

It makes such a difference, right? :D

[@mruhaily]

Thank you Arvid , very good interview

[@TheBootstrappedFounder]

Glad you enjoyed it

[@chrisgrigg82]

Thanks Pieter and Arvid, this was so insightful and inspirational!

[@TheBootstrappedFounder]

I appreciate i! Pieter is such a joy to talk to.

[@WilsonSilva90]

I was wondering how the hell were you replying to the live stream comments whilst paying attention to the conversation. Then I wondered how were you able to add that ending clip to the end of the stream. This was pre-recorded. Smart!

[@TheBootstrappedFounder]

Yes, this was a live premiere of an edited conversation. "Live" is a malleable concept :D

[@aninhaclaralui]

I’m so excited 🤩

[@TheBootstrappedFounder]

🥰

[@conformist]

amazing podcast episode. for real. i subbed. i'm at the beginning of my indie (not hacker) now, after doing a failed startup. also working on AI products atm lmao. i hope i will look back a year from now and have made money to pay rent lol

[@TheBootstrappedFounder]

I appreciate this a lot!

[@ilichpadilla2448]

Amazing video Arvid! Following this channel right away and turning on notifications 🔔 Pieter is an inspiration for the community of indie hackers and, particularly on my case, I started some SaaS projects motivated by his growth.

[@TheBootstrappedFounder]

Yeah, he sure is an inspiration :D Thanks for the kind words!

[@mehulsharmamat]

waiting :D

[@sudhamjayanthi]

Oh wow, pieter on a podcast!!?

[@FlorinPop]

Amazing episode! A crazy guy. In a good way (most of the times 😂)

[@TheBootstrappedFounder]

Thanks, Florin :D

[@fcordobaot]

Great conversation 🎉

[@TheBootstrappedFounder]

Than you kindly!

[@MyLatinLife]

Pieters first interview in months!

[@TheBootstrappedFounder]

Yeah, I was very happy that he agreed!

[@rohitdas490]

Hi Arvid, please add the ratethispodcast link in the description ☺

[@mitchellcohen]

great episode!

[@TheBootstrappedFounder]

Thank you!

[@underdogg3972]

Oh man I'm subscribing great channel

[@TheBootstrappedFounder]

Thank you so much!

[@justinholbein9776]

Great episode

[@TheBootstrappedFounder]

Thank you!

[@JirmanJiri]

🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation: 00:00 📉 *Pieter Levels discusses the evolution of indie hacking and its transition from a niche, subcultural activity to a mainstream approach in entrepreneurship.* 00:56 🌐 *The growth of indie hacking aligns with the rise of Product Hunt and the shift from traditional VC-funded startups to independent ventures.* 01:55 🏋️‍♂️ *Indie hacking has become more competitive and challenging due to its popularity and the entrance of big tech companies into the space.* 03:21 💰 *Economic recessions influence the shift towards lean, indie hacking startups as traditional funding becomes scarce.* 04:17 🔧 *Discusses the challenges in AI startups, particularly the lack of defensibility and high churn rates due to the widespread use of common AI models like GPT-4 and Stable Diffusion.* 05:38 💸 *Highlights the high operational costs and low profit margins in AI startups, exacerbated by expensive GPU requirements.* 06:36 📈 *Discusses the impact of platform dependencies and the scarcity of GPUs on AI startup costs and scalability.* 07:33 🛠️ *Pieter shares his experience with dependency on suppliers and the challenges of adapting to sudden cost changes in the AI startup ecosystem.* 10:28 🔄 *Emphasizes the importance of having flexible, adaptable systems to mitigate the risks associated with dependencies in tech startups.* 11:26 🤖 *Pieter acknowledges his limitations in AI development and discusses outsourcing to specialists for complex tasks.* 12:41 📊 *Highlights the effectiveness of influencer marketing on platforms like TikTok for startup growth, exceeding traditional press coverage.* 14:42 🤝 *Pieter contemplates the potential for collaboration with other entrepreneurs in the AI space to leverage mutual strengths and skills.* 16:12 💻 *Discusses his approach to technology, emphasizing simplicity and practicality over trendiness in his tech stack, mainly PHP and JavaScript.* 16:59 💻 *Pieter describes his PHP coding as structured and clear, countering the perception that it's subpar. He mentions using GitHub and having a well-organized folder and file structure, making it accessible for other developers.* 17:26 🤖 *Discusses the cycle in tech where agencies sell the latest technologies to clients, leading to an ever-evolving ecosystem of frameworks and skills, which he sees as unnecessary complexity for entrepreneurs focused on customer acquisition.* 18:54 🧰 *Emphasizes the reliability of older technologies like PHP due to their proven track record, critiquing the trend of adopting new technologies that may add unnecessary complexity and have unproven longevity.* 19:23 👨‍💻 *Highlights a mindset difference between developers and entrepreneurs, where developers often focus on technical elegance, while entrepreneurs prioritize practicality and customer acquisition.* 20:21 ⚡ *Stresses the importance of execution speed over technological perfection in startups, especially in the fast-paced AI industry.* 21:18 🚀 *Shares his experience with Avatar AI, where he started with a simple HTML page and a Stripe payment link, emphasizing the value of starting simple and scaling up as demand is proven.* 23:46 🛠️ *Advocates for the 'concierge' approach in startups, where entrepreneurs manually handle processes before automating them, ensuring the business model works first.* 25:42 📈 *Discusses the evolution of indie hacking, suggesting that what was once a movement has now become a mainstream method of doing business.* 27:13 🌐 *Advises new entrepreneurs to seek unique, less crowded paths and to leverage platforms like TikTok for documenting and sharing their startup journey.* 29:43 🤝 *Notes a generational divide in attitudes towards AI, with younger generations more accepting and utilizing AI tools like Jenni AI for practical purposes.* 30:13 🤖 *Reflects on the skepticism towards AI among older generations and emphasizes the importance of focusing on the positive impacts of AI.* 32:39 💭 *Suggests that societal changes, like the provision of a basic income, may be necessary to address the challenges posed by AI and technological advancement.* 33:40 🌍 *Discusses the historical fear of technology taking over, as depicted in films like Terminator, and relates it to contemporary fears about AI.* 34:09 🤖 *Discusses the fear of technology, particularly among those who cannot code or control it, leading to a sense of powerlessness and apprehension towards AI.* 35:01 💡 *Suggests that governments should provide basic income and encourage voluntary work to protect people from the disruptive impacts of technology on income and employment.* 36:23 🛠️ *Reflects on the challenges for founders in protecting their technology, given the rapid pace of change and reliance on platforms like OpenAI.* 37:22 🌊 *Emphasizes the importance of quickly adapting to new technologies like AI to maintain a competitive edge, citing his own experience of rapidly developing AI startups to catch the wave of technological change.* 39:20 🌍 *Shares his passion for Nomad List, viewing it as a long-term project that constantly evolves to address the complex problem of finding the best places to live.* 40:18 📈 *Highlights the stability and longevity of his project Nomad List compared to the more volatile and stressful nature of AI startups.* 41:19 💸 *Considers selling his AI startups once they reach a certain revenue milestone, noting the high multiples for AI startups and the need to balance profit margins.* 43:12 📷 *Discusses the potential of AI to replace traditional jobs like photography, suggesting that AI could serve as a tool for enhancing or streamlining existing processes.* 45:19 🤝 *Views AI as a tool that aids in doing tasks more efficiently, acknowledging its potential to replace certain roles but emphasizing its usefulness in augmenting human capabilities.* 48:12 🌏 *Reflects on the evolution of digital nomadism, noting a trend towards slower travel and the continued relevance of the lifestyle, especially in the context of remote work.* 50:08 🚀 *Observes the growing trend of remote work, leading to an increase in digital nomadism, with particular hotspots like Bali, Thailand, and Mexico attracting remote workers.* 51:07 🌐 *Pieter Levels discusses how solo travel helped him overcome shyness, learn to socialize, and experiment with different aspects of his personality.* 52:05 📱 *Talks about the changes in Twitter's algorithm under Elon Musk's leadership, leading to more extreme content being promoted for higher engagement.* 54:00 🔄 *Observes a shift in Twitter's dynamics, where product updates and less sensational content receive less visibility compared to more viral or extreme posts.* 55:23 💬 *Emphasizes the importance of authenticity on social media, even in the face of changing algorithms and audience dynamics.* 56:20 📊 *Discusses the need to adapt content for different platforms, likening the strategy to meeting audience expectations on KZbin and Twitter.* 57:15 🌍 *Reflects on the societal and cultural shifts that occur in seven-year cycles, suggesting that we are currently in a new cycle influenced by AI and recent global events.* 58:14 📹 *Highlights the importance of crafting content to capture audience attention in the first few seconds, especially in the current attention economy.* 59:12 📉 *Notes the trend towards shorter attention spans in media consumption, with a shift from long movies to short videos like TikToks.* 01:04:14 🗣️ *Advocates for sharing honest, sometimes controversial opinions on social media, viewing it as a platform for authentic self-expression.* 01:06:06 📢 *Acknowledges the challenges of dealing with criticism and hate on social media but emphasizes the value of staying true to oneself.* 01:07:33 🔗 *Recommends following him on Twitter (@levelsio) for insights into his entrepreneurial journey and honest takes on various topics.* 01:07:58 🤝 *The host expresses admiration for Pieter Levels' journey and contributions to the indie hacker community, highlighting his role as an inspirational figure.* 01:08:31 💼 *Pieter Levels is open to the idea of selling his AI businesses in the future, recognizing the need for potential changes in direction or ownership.* 01:09:01 🚀 *Discusses the challenges founders face when growth stagnates, and suggests considering the sale of a business as a viable option to capitalize on its current value.* 01:10:00 🔄 *Highlights the common scenario where businesses face stagnation and lose value over time, suggesting proactive steps like selling the business can be beneficial.* 01:10:30 🏢 *Recommends Acquire.com as a platform for founders looking to sell their businesses, emphasizing the importance of making timely decisions for personal and business growth.* 01:10:58 📢 *Encourages listeners to engage with and support the show through various channels, including social media and podcast reviews, to expand its reach and impact.* Made with HARPA AI

[@SamHartmannCom]

Premiere notification activated🔔

[@TheBootstrappedFounder]

I appreciate it :D

[@TheEtrepreneur]

Levels is legendary, I've met him at some coworking inauguration in Chiang Mai in 2018, there was a drunk guy very funny, then I recognize him, from that moment I knew I made it. haha p.s. I don't get along with people from July, but boy they are resourceful.

[@nathanrobinson9455]

Pieter is very knowledgable about AI. It's clear that through the process of building companies that utilize AI, he's also become an expert on the business and fundamental strategy and constraints for AI in and of itself. Pieter, you should start an AI making company, not just a company using AI.

[@AlexMacGregor]

Pieter is a legend!

[@LildAnakin]

🔥

[@demonotizedinstantly]

Can't wait for this shit ❤❤❤

[@Robin-qf9is]

🔥🔥🔥

[@JeffFasulkey]

This is incredibly inspiring. Ship ship ship

[@thehari75]

Guys is no code and low code the future? Will regular people for example ux designers or marketers be able to create fully functional products without hiring softwaree engineers? Will ai make this possible?

[@TheBootstrappedFounder]

I think we're getting ever closer to this. The more the interface changes and "understands" requirements better, the less practical skill we'll need at building.

[@NOCODE-VIETNAM]

Which software do you use to record the interview?

[@TheBootstrappedFounder]

That's riverside.fm - link is in the description

[@Kingromstar]

He's absolutely right, it is mainstream now

[@MatijaGrcic]

49:00 Pieter wonders, 'Where am I?' His subconscious answers, 'In Croatia.' I love that.

[@denizcansanlav]

🔥🔥🔥 :D

[@MartinKleine]

Arvid, really cool interview. Noticed that you been looking 24/7 into the webcam, which makes me ask are you are ROBOT?

[@TheBootstrappedFounder]

Nah, I just have a teleprompter! 😂 Pieter’s video was right where I’m looking.

[@watcher1326]

I can't put my finger on exactly why, but I found this content energizing. Though I don't think only dumb people take a year to find an idea that works...or at least I hope not. :)

[@TheBootstrappedFounder]

Haha, there is something very enjoyable about Pieter's directness :D It does inspire me, too!

[@sharayus6832]

This interview is a gem.

[@udaym4204]

best way to host model aws or replicate or any other

[@Speaks4itself]

replicate

[@AITwo_co]

Replicate

[@udaym4204]

i think he use aws because aws is must cheap compared to replicate

[@jesusic1320]

What is the stuff he wasn’t able to manage? He talks about it in 11:01. Python, pyphone, pip manager? Did not understand him.

[@TheBootstrappedFounder]

Probably the very complex backend stuff that has to do with machine learning and such.

[@luvsuneja]

I kinda get that stuff as an ML Engineer. I really want to try some indie hacking.

[@JohnnyUtah269]

It would be easier to watch if the video of the guest was fullscreen when they are speaking

[@TheBootstrappedFounder]

I'll consider that for future videos!

[@JohnnyUtah269]

@@TheBootstrappedFounder 🙌🏻

[@JohnnyUtah269]

@@TheBootstrappedFounder and I don't mean it to be disrespectful it's just when Pieter is talking sometimes your movements distract my little adhd brain

[@rohitdas490]

Pieter said stressful 5x time while talking about AI startups and twitter thinks wrapper startups are easy/get rich quick scheme.

[@yarikbratashchuk3386]

How old is this guy?

[@TheBootstrappedFounder]

Early 30s I guess? :D

[@dondolla2135]

You need time stamps on your vids.

[@TheBootstrappedFounder]

Thanks for pointing this out, I have updated the description.

[@mtwata]

I love Pieter's ideass but his passion for Elon Musk is so weird 😂 great conversation though. Interviewer did a very good job

[@TheBootstrappedFounder]

Thank you!

[@cyrusm9044]

Why is the host staring and smiling at me ALL THE TIME! It's creeping me out 😮

[@TheBootstrappedFounder]

Thanks! I am looking at Pieter in my teleprompter because I have a conversation with him - you know, the video you're watching :P

[@cyrusm9044]

I ended up putting a sticky note over your part of the screen as it distracted me from the (really interesting) discussion. Maybe I am the only one who gets creeped by the stare...

[@JohnnyUtah269]

@@cyrusm9044 it distracted me as well. At least on iPad with the KZbin app you can pinch and zoom to one part of the video

[@TheBootstrappedFounder]

🤣 @@cyrusm9044 - I'll take this into account in the future. It's funny: on Twitter, someone told me the exact opposite. For them, seeing both people was making them feel more included in the conversation. But hey, maybe I should offer branded sticky notes for this purpose :D

[@cyrusm9044]

@@TheBootstrappedFounder seeing both people is good. My personal preference would be if you could offset the camera so you don't look into it while you are looking at Pieter. Like on a Zoom call or a talkshow in TV - nobody looks in the camera Looking at Pieter, I know he is talking with you. Looking at you, I see that you are focusing on me and talking to me (while that's not true). Ps: I appreciate you even read this. It's your show, do as you wish. It can be that I am an outlier and should not be listened to.

[@jeremymeyer5990]

Nope just beginning. HyperModern development is next.

[@DueGreg]

I am a lil dog a cute one hey

[@johndoe_1984]

This guy is so arrogant and full of himself. He honestly got very lucky.

[@JamesTudsbury]

Maybe he did get lucky, but nobody built his businesses for him - he still tried to do something, which is more than a lot of people do.

[@luvsuneja]

You don’t get lucky without working hard and taking risks.

[@nonefvnfvnjnjnjevjenjvonej3384]

i feel like Pieter Levels is a cheap hack.. dont be like him..

[@murlin616]

U jelly?

[@nonefvnfvnjnjnjevjenjvonej3384]

@@murlin616 jelly? i would never ever want to be like him.

[@murlin616]

@@nonefvnfvnjnjnjevjenjvonej3384 u must be mad he's doing better than u

[@jaymason7097]

Yeah let’s try communism again. Good idea guys.

[@TheBootstrappedFounder]

Ha, probably not. Pieter and I come from countries with strong social safety nets, which color our views a little. But we're also both founders strongly rooted in the capitalist system. Personally, I'd like for entrepreneurs (who are doing society a massive service by innovating and experimenting "on the edge") to be recognized and supported more. How do you feel about that?