Pillemer, Fractured Families

[@brittajacobson2523]

It feels better to know I’m not alone. Thank you.

[@lanamuir9352]

Thank you Dr. Pillemer for this book lecture. I have been estranged from.my entire family for just over twenty years. When my parents died (1999 and 2001) my heart was broken, as I loved them very, very much. My two older sisters and brother had become emotionally intolerable to me after these deaths, so I chose to "step away". I had listened to "you are not really one of us", or "we don't know why mom and dad adopted you in the first place", "blood is thicker than water" since I was little all the way through to adulthood. I came into the family at age six and my siblings were 22, 20 and 18 years older than myself, married, and raising their own families. So, I was raised as an only child. As I matured, my siblings religious self-righteousness and hypocrisy wore me down. At age 50, I let go of my siblings, their children and pretty much the entire extended family. My love affair was with my parents and that became self-evident when my two sisters and brother allowed their true colours to shine. Jealous, petty, narcissistic, cruel and gossip that would destroy any family. I had to take care of my mental health and simply depart from the family that I grew up within. The last twenty years have been free of terrible hurts, cruel words, lies and a myriad of personality deficits that I endured for the greater part of my life. I rarely discuss this with any of my closest friends, as I have a fear that they will think that I was the one responsible for the estrangement. Yes, I was the one who walked away and when I closed the door behind me, I wanted to leave it closed. My siblings are now all dead and the last thing I would have done is attend their funerals. I am not a hypocrite and could see no point in showing respect for people who showed me little respect, let alone love, throughout my entire life.

[@elizabethk3238]

Almost an echo to my experience. I'm not adopted, but so different to my 5 siblings that except for the fact that I look like them, I would have gladly say I was adopted.

[@Missusri]

About five years ago, someone I know, a widow, was on Facebook with an image of hers alone standing up in different state. I knew she had adult married children. At the time, I had thought rather negatively from seeing that Facebook page of hers; now I have a different take. Maybe this person just wanted to claim her independence; and maybe she and her children were estranged the way I and my adult children are now. I love my children as they are doting parents of my grandchildren. I am still navigating the whole situation and am trying to stay sane!

[@lesterdiamond6190]

take some of my strength. my sister physically assaulted me trying to provoke me into retaliating , which she would have used instantly to get me into trouble with the law. people like this are evil. It's up to the rest of us to stand together and call this stuff out for what it is. I canned the whole crew over twenty years ago and have a great life now. If I gave them any chance at all they'd be right back to their old tricks. Just wrecking things for others. No f'n way!

[@pannellclara]

wow what a journey i’m glad you are ok now & strong may God bless you

[@bandieboo8102]

Wow.. great comment...

[@deborahronca]

I'm estranged from a few members in my family including my daughter again she has cut me off from her life a few times. I was the one that reached out to her the first time we were estranged. But this time I feel a lot more angry at her and feel like what she is doing is a power trip using my grandchildren as pawns in the situation. I know that I'm not perfect but I was a single mother most of her life her father my ex-husband abandoned her. I feel that this hurtful situation in her life that her father abandoned her, makes it so much easier to cut me off. I am not ready to speak with her she has hurt me many times during our relationship. I just had enough of feeling bad about myself and feeling guilty I did the best I could. My daughter had mental illness issues, addiction, and I was there to help her from so many of these problems. Her first marriage ended in divorce and I gave her and my grandchildren a roof over her head and cared for my Grandchildren so she can get help with her addiction and get sober. This was not appreciated by her and she in turn abused and assaulted me physically! I just cant take anymore hurt from her.

[@SL-bo7ui]

I can relate to you. Little bit different story but includes estrangement from my daughter for over 3 years now. It’s very sad!

[@kateregis6115]

We have very similar paths, currently in a similar cycle with my daughter, so sad….There is strength in reading your words because I too reached the ‘Not ready to speak with her, too hurt” I did the best I could……one day at a time,

[@mjcard]

You are doing the right thing in my opinion. Your daughter needs to learn something. My sister treated my mom in a similar style and my mom endured the hurt from her until she died. I wished mom had not been the ever enduring mom. Many reasons, not the least that my sister needed a wake up. It didn’t do her any favour.

[@blippyy4177]

Can you hear yourself? You take absolutely no ownership of anything. That is probably the reason you are still estranged. "I did by best." Is not taking ownership of anything. I recommend you listen to Tina Gilbertson if you want to fix anything. It starts with yourself. That goes for all the other EP out there. Get educated please.

[@blippyy4177]

@@pamelameltonhuff583 ...when you say blame, you mean hold you accountable for behavior?

[@victoriajohnson4420]

Reconciliation may be okay for some situations, but in our case, we initiated the estrangement and set specific standards for any reconciliation. Realistically, we knew that our simple demands would never be met. I still suffered years of nightmares in which they tried to get back into my life and reduce me to the little role I had to play in the dysfunctional family dynamic. At least by day I can revel in my freedom.

[@alchemicalrelationship]

Personality disorders play a huge role. Personality disordered people create so many issues that aren't represented correctly!

[@thurayashi145]

I agree! Thank you for highlighting this

[@lesterdiamond6190]

Sister... Borderline Personality Disorder, Brother.... incredibly jealous, always with the put downs and the insults. Will never give them an inch as long as I live. Just the worst.

[@erikar9761]

Great lecture! Thank you Dr. Pillemer.

[@moxiepooties6363]

The first interview was with a person who believes that the superficial stuff is what parenting is all about. Because of the media, a lot of people think that unless you are getting beaten, burned or raped, you are not suffering abuse or neglect. The second person made some good points. It's the psychological stuff that matters, not the money your parents spent on you. When you have family members who have personality disorders or another kind of mental health challenge, or came from some type of dysfunctional family themselves, or will only let you do what THEY value, or insist on doing everything THEIR way regardless of YOUR needs, and will NOT negotiate meeting needs, you've got a narcissistic family situation, no matter which family member is a problem for you. My problematic family member problem involves a person who allows me no boundaries, and wants everything on their own terms all the time. My family of origin did NOT discuss or negotiate anything, discussion was forbidden on pain of a whipping. And that has seeped down to damage the next generation.

[@angelaweber5879]

Estrangement is catastrophic for a mother most of the time. I developed a condition called Tokotsubo Syndrome, also known as "broken heart disease." It's a cardiomyopathy caused by stress and sorrow.

[@DebraJMSmith]

Fabulous interview. I purchased his book, Fault Lines, and it's to be here tomorrow. I look forward to reading it.

[@beckydowhower8156]

My oldest daughter,cut me off after,the death of my second daughter,4 years ago.with the loss of both of my daughters,6 grandchildren,and 2 sisters,and nieces.ive been honest about it with myself and others.iove them ALL.Thetefore ,if All are better ,without me,so there we have it.God bless us all.

[@nellie...]

God bless you too 🙏

[@blessingfarm3674]

I am sorry. God loves you, too. I know the pain of rejection, too, and am struggling as well, but I try to remember that God loves us, too.

[@tw6973]

Does it get easier? My eldest daughter became estranged taking my 3 grandsons, 3 years after my youngest daughter passed away (who was also estranged for 2 years prior to her passing) I see no future and hide away at home. Must be me for both my kids to hate me

[@annalynn9325]

@@tw6973 Very sorry for your loss. It’s so hard for our children to reject us 💔

[@shyamalaratnayeke8757]

I found this seminar very helpful and could identify with many of the points made here.

[@recyclespinning9839]

What siblings need to understand that we all have different parents. Each of us were treated different . We were born at different times and parents were different at different ages also. Some parents abuse one child , neglect , yet dote on another child . At tines this contributes to a child not being able to care for an aging parent. Not that that child is using it as a form of revenge, but possibly no connection from the years that child was neglected . Even possibly he or she is suffering because of the abuse and just struggling to support themselves and even struggling emotionally just to survive from all the pain inside. This state of their lives just makes it impossible to have left over emotional energy to help the parent. In my case parents were caught in a huge battle with their favorite towards the end of their lives. They had estranged all their other children. So even though they were fighting with his entitlement and crossing financial boundries etc , he was STILL the focus of their lives .. Sad

[@heatherwentz]

I went through being parented differently too. My parents don't see it my sister don't see it. It really sucks when you understand everything going on and they just don't get it. It's sad to watch.

[@please.665]

I had a different father than my siblings. It's why I'm here. I can't even begin to tell you how half-sibling denigrate as devalue other siblings.

[@-Deena.]

Excellent session and extremely personally useful. Thank you.

[@anitalucero65]

It is a very very sad situation the only way I survive is knowing I have Jesus to help me get by day by day, one day at a time. Your spirituality will get you by.

[@averayugen8462]

I believe in having at least ONE real friend, and not an imaginary one.

[@annettegray1843]

Amen! 🙏🙏 I totally agree!

[@lemostjoyousrenegade]

🎯❗️

[@shellcshells2902]

I couldn't get through the estrangement by my sister without my relationship with Jesus.

[@annalynn9325]

Amen, no way I could manage without Jesus ❤

[@WeekendMuse]

Very informative talk about a complex subject. Unfortunately the noise of typing on a keyboard during the Q&A segment is truely distracting.

[@marywhite3970]

Some siblings just decide they don't "like" you; or they rank you as being below them. My older sister calls herself the "Matriarch", insists on setting the terms in even a simple invite...she trusts no one and must establish control and dominance even in phone calls, she will drone on forever without any give & take, she subjects you to a monologue and resents it if you try to have any real exchange. At first, tried gently to bring her attention to this which she ignorred then I set a boundary by letting her know that next call, we were going to need to set a few ground rules because she was openly & completely dominating every conversation. She seemed unable or unwilling to self monitor her flow even in the interest of conversational fairness. It felt like she was imposing this role of "mandatory listener" onto me without any regard for reciprocity. She's a very passive-aggressive type. She refuses to call me now and is giving me the cold shoulder. When I called her to ask a couple things about her lasik surgery since I'm preparing for it here shortly, she told me to "get a phone book" and "to try finding it in the 'yellow pages'"...lol...bet if I looked up passive-aggression, her name would be at the top of the list! Before I even noticed her insistence and compulsion to monopolize the conversation, I noticed after literally hours of indulging her, how pathological her pattern was. She has discarded me for not acquiescing and deferring to her and she does not allow me the space to express my own viewpoints genuinely and therefore does not allow me to just be me but wants me to 'tailor' my interactions with her that always gives up the floor to her as if it is a preset required form of demonstrating my respect for her which she downright demands...or else there will be no relationship. It's symptomatic I'm sure; but the pain is that I miss the person she used to be and keep reaching for that part of her that seems no longer there. I miss my sister...at least the one I used to know. 😞 We do have lifestyle & philosophical differences... She got married had 3 kids; I remained single and struck out on my own. She categorizes my choices as "selfish" as if my life is just one long "vacation". And I see the burdens & responsibilities of her choices as maybe not as "fulfilling" as she had imagined or had been 'sold' on...she endured a lot in order to hang onto her husband and that identity of "married woman" but I'm not sure it paid off in the way she had expected. I bought & paid my own house off which I think is a source of resentment for her when she thinks over how much of her own authenticity she had to set aside in order to be married. Our lives contrast one another on many levels. It's like I cannot be comfortable just being myself around her, I have to always, in some manner, treat her as if she deserves all the respect...like she is some kind of martyr. But we all make choices and those choices come with certain consequences once chosen, that cannot be undone. We each have to live our own lives that unfold as a result of those choices; whether thoroughly anticipated or as a result of herd and gender conditioning.

[@please.665]

Sounds like my sister. Girl I couldn't go on.

[@karenlacey4549]

Dr. Pillermers work and his ideas are techniques for family situations that are salvageable, not people who had sadistic outright villainous families of origin. If your situation is insolveable not one single person would want you to go back for more abuse. However many people have workable issues in their families of orgin so if this lecture is not for you leave, no one expects you to listen to a lecture that you can not use for your situation. Other people working on their issues for themselves and their families is valid. It's terribly sad some people will never have sane healthy relatives who change for the better,but this attitude that some estranged adults believe all parents are as bad as their parents is what is getting push back.

[@vgrannyvl2]

I disagree on the point of being estranged from abusive toxic family. If you remain or go back you will be abused more and worse. Abandonment is many times the very answer. Does it hurt? Yes but abuse is supposed to hurt as well as cutting off ties to those you love who abuse you. Will it remain an open wound? No. It may take a long time but the wound does heal. My dad died when I was 13. The worst trauma ever. I didn't begin to deal with it until the age of 28 and then slowly over the years. I am now 64 and can talk about him and think about him without crying and feeling dreadfully painful. I believe if you look at it in the proper perspective things go quicker. 2nd scenarios: I cut off many from my mother's side. Who said you are supposed to remain with family? Someone who wasn't in an abusive/toxic family. If you are in an abusive situation no matter how it hurts, leave. If you stay, you will die. I'd rather live and live well. When we are children, we need "family" but once we become adults we do not need those abusive ppl. They are the wound and what caused the wound. Don't look to them to heal it. You must heal yourself. Take your power back.

[@please.665]

I'd rather take the big hurt instead of steady taking the little ones.

[@please.665]

27-33 is the "quarter life crises" the "phoenix return" "Nigredo. The time when unresolved issues oblige you to handle them.

[@palette_1563]

I've got very minimal contact with my kids but i cant imagine cutting contact all together

[@helenachase5627]

I've experienced this with my two boys. I also took a brief break from my mom and brother. I think it's OK for creating better boundaries and breaking bad dynamics. But, I think if possible it's best to make up if love is there. But not if you really just don't like your sibling or parent

[@caliblue2]

My firstborn was continuously abusing me and projecting her jealousy and insecurity onto me fabricating total lies while she got prescribed multiple medications that totally changed her personality, Instantly abandoning her romantic relationships with significant others with the same angry tone. At age 55 when my mom passed she began tofabricate that my father had sexually molested her and he had never been alone with her one time in her entire life. While we were always there for her birthdays and any event she wanted us there for when it was time to return the same she acted angry that anything should be expected of her. I cut her off and told her if she ever wanted to apologize for all the lies and the anger She manufactured that she knew where I lived. It’s been seven years she’s blown through another few relationships that ended in anger. It’s sad but she’s still angry and that kind of crap makes people physically sick and steals their light.

[@paulclarke3132]

First, I wonder what percentage of the time estrangements are the result of the child cutting the parent off or visa versa. I suspect it is almost exclusively the former although this doesn't in any way reveal who is primarily at fault. Secondly, I would guess that if there is therapy involved, most of the time only one side participates and it's probably mostly parents. Obviously, having access to only one side would make effective therapy very difficult if not impossible. If the lopsidedness is as I suspect, it also reveals sort of a one-way flow of love, willingness to forgive, loyalty, etc ...the things that good parents provide their children growing up. Lastly, I think that we are losing the sense of what it means to be family and its being replaced with what seems like a very self-centered ideology where one's personal happiness is paramount to anything else. In other words, traditional family values are giving way to individualism. If someone is only thinking of himself, it's very easy to develop a form of thinking whereby the reaction to a problem becomes "the" problem. This comes out as: "You're always getting mad about things." and that's a nice way of saying "I want to do anything I want and don't want anyone to complain about it". Thus, any complaint becomes the infamous "toxicity" so often mentioned in discussions about estrangements and fault for the primary problem is not considered nor ever corrected.

[@lesterdiamond6190]

It’s a pipe dream to think you’re gonna make progress with sociopathic/psychopathic family members. Sometimes the best thing is to just quietly disappear and ghost the whole crew. One radioactive apple can really contaminate the whole barrel.

[@averayugen8462]

and we wonder where loneliness comes from...lol... it happens when YOU are the target of those sentiments and I hate to admit but this stuff is apparently ubiquitous. Ghosted people are just too...objectionable.

[@lesterdiamond6190]

@@averayugen8462 It's important to respond that I am not lonely at all. I'm a fiercely independent man in a great marriage with cool hobbies and plenty of money. After my parents died and I administered the estate in precisely the way they requested, I simply left for good. I simply will not tolerate the kind of abuse some of these people think they are entitled to dish out. It's been 23 years now. I don't even know who's dead and who's alive.

[@crystalkooy6401]

what do u do when they have your kids but at 13 and 17 all of a sudden stop letting you talk 2 ur kids and say your kids hate you. and when the 17 is 19 she left college in Leadville in dorm to live with my evil family in the same bedroom with her 15 yr old sister who they can't be in same car or same rm in apartment. my oldest had the living room and nevaeha and I in bedroom

[@please.665]

The most devastating realization is that everyone else is complicit.

[@please.665]

@@averayugen8462 Your attitude sounds like one of the flying monkeys

[@christineplaton3048]

Im still hoping to find assistance ie a study or therapist aware of NPD ...resultant damages in family.

[@maricamaas2326]

Many years ago was advised by someone older, with much life experience; that the more children one has, the greater the chance that in future - at any given time - there will be some of them who are not angry about something one had said or done 😅 Another elder testified how the biggest mistake he had made while raising his children, had been to do too much for them. His 30 year old offspring could not yet stand on their own feet. After him continually supporting them so well, they could not handle challenges and problems on their own. It is indeed a blessing to be granted the privilege to raise children, yet one should be diligent in preparing them to individuate and become independent, and as soon as they are ready, one should be quick to release them towards finding their own way in life.

[@MarilynLoftin]

Eventually the grandchildren will find you and have a beautiful relationship with all of their family.

[@TomHuckACAB]

My dad used to call me "Pooh". It was all affectionate and stuff. We were estranged for the last 20 years of his life. Now I see the metaphor fits perfectly as far as Milne. If I had only known back in the 1970s

[@roseannpacheco6970]

This was very interesting and helpful and I hope to get more information from reading the book ..

[@nellie...]

Thanks!

[@heatherboughton5936]

Defensiveness kills all relationships, eventually. Hoffman Process was the best thing that I ever invested in for my own personal growth. Did it in 2006. It's tough but it's amazing.

[@blippyy4177]

Do you mind sharing more ? Thanks

[@anniemac7545]

I'd love to know the stats of narcissistic parents involved in estranged families

[@averayugen8462]

I have no family and I am supposed to go on as if nothing has happened. But I cant speak to anyone now, never with children and not even with nice neighbors. Zippo. The man in my house acts as if I don't exist. That's my life. Doesn't seem like it can ever change now. So my advice is: Have a loving family or don't get born

[@ichoosehope]

Please stop TYPING and CLICKING

[@bbelizy9627]

Typing was very annoying and rude!

[@laurajane4806]

Estrangement is the result of living INVALIDATED. Your list of pathways, I believe to simply be the final straw. In estranged relationships there is one or more offenders whose deflection, projection, and slander are believed and repeated by everyone and a truthteller who nobody believes. So, the truthteller goes away and the rest of the family pretends that those who commit crimes against others have the traits (stolen from) the truthteller. The truthteller is considered "bad." It's based on false (projected) identifies, is illogical and insane, but really is just that simple. We endure it for as long as we can take it. It's a lifelong role that will never change. What nobody notices during inheritance quarrels is that NONE of the culprit personalities simply abide by respecting the wishes of the deceased. They are rewarded for disrespecting their deceased loved one, while simultaneously painting us black. Your examples show narcissistic elements. No narcissist is every going to be honest and open during therapy (the reason we give up). in the mother/son video, she starts off with narcissistic statements. She lists items that are exterior (food, good school - no mention of fond memories, love or acceptance.) She then invalidates their reality. An authentic person would be soul searching. It's obvious to those of us who have endured it that the son is the invalidated truthteller and the mother is living the false persona. Agreed we can be the bigger person, but every time we do, they attack us again and then play victim. it's a perpetual phenomenon that is frustrating. We don't bring up the past, they do. The Estranged person is Exiled basically, then the narcs go into therapy and call the Estranged person a "liar" - again invalidating us. The need to assign blame is at the core of every narcissist. WE aren't blaming, we are responding to being blamed. We try one more chance over and over and every time they make us the bad guy. We are forced to accept that they will never see us for who we are, or simply get out from in front of the firing range. 🙂

[@maricamaas2326]

Yes indeed, estrangement is far more difficult to deal with than losing a loved one through death. This is especially applicable to marriage break-down due to adultery; as is written in Ecclesiates 7:26.

[@kazsmudge5559]

Found the continuous typing very distracting couldn't listen all the way through.

[@bbelizy9627]

Typing was very annoying and rude!

[@heatherboughton5936]

The typing by the questioner is very off-putting, from around 40:00

[@bbelizy9627]

Typing was very annoying and rude!

[@RS-ov2st]

The typing in the end is very distracting. Maybe record, then type later.

[@bbelizy9627]

The typing was annoying and rude!

[@amybouchard]

If you read this comment section you’ll see how challenging estrangement is for all the parties.

[@DarkerSideOfDawn]

Yes I get this is about reconciliation by way of acceptance .. but until we start getting to the heart of control dynamics and the effects of abuse that goes with it this is just going to get worse.

[@rorytennes8576]

You forgot to mention religion. Difference in religious beliefs or lack of divides family

[@anitalucero65]

When is he coming to New Mexico?

[@djbowler3333]

I think Larry David summed it up succinctly- "Not everybody likes eachother". There, i just saved y'all 90 minutes.

[@PattyFairclothjmegg]

Sometimes it’s just that simple. Our kids grow up and personalities don’t always work together as adults. As a parent whose daughter cut me off over 3 years ago, it still hurts and i look for answers and I find myself trying to explain that I loved my kids. I can’t help but picture that one guy from the movie “Office Space” who is realizing he is pretty useless, screaming “I’m a people person!”

[@christineplaton3048]

Important for me, I have experiences with fractured families...plural...women like myself that have survived narcissistic spousal abuse. I need a link with the Cornell University Psychology Department. I'm interested in working in a Narcissism study / group .

[@averayugen8462]

Did you connect with Cornell?

[@crystalkooy6401]

I'm interested if you got a hold of any1 what's the #. I specifically got on my phone cyz I'm watching on my TV to try to figure out how to be apart of a study.... I want to know so much I'm willing to be a poster child for making emotional and mental abuse illegal. I'm gathering info on people I've negatively affected in my life and go after the professionals that allowed me to get where I am to discover all this is what's caused my kids to hate Me at 19 and 15. and wanting to help them.... which ifk they Jane that comes from my family for 2 years now

[@christineplaton3048]

@@crystalkooy6401 Crystal. Yes, I agree it would be nice to be a part of a study but the kids might not like it. Mine are adults. The parental alienation is the most painful of all. The abuse as I was reading causes in some a splitting...where trauma causes them to see people , events as in black and white. They alienate the wrong parent because they have an alliance with the abuser. Call it self preservation. But they were trained from a very early age. We are cut off, they develop mental illness under extreme duress and are ill prepared for relationships. I see this ...we don't need to be poster children. We are older, wiser and we have survived some of the worst psychological traumas out there. I know I have. But we were not the greatest parents while under siege. The entire family was suffering and it was acceptable to our Churches ...or other organizations. NPD or narcissistic personality disorder is newly studied and they are trying to help develop methods of treatment. Utube has great helps if you stick only with the mental health professionals. Write letters or one letter to the psych departments of various colleges. This is where the studies may originate. Univ. Of California is one.

[@christineplaton3048]

@@averayugen8462 They did not respond to my attempt. Nor did other Universities.

[@sbriks]

Looking for advice.. will listen and look for clues to diagnose why my son is crude and rude..

[@whattheheck9641]

look i know it hurts to be let go.. i decided im not dealing with trying anymore,, i want happiness and im not going to put myself in pain.. i say good bye we as parents ,, should get the hint then go because YOU WILL KEEP GETTING HURT UNLESS THEY GET HELP TOO

[@stellamiranda5742]

Please don’t type while the expositor is talking

[@lisac8509]

Therapist today sre trained to blame the parent as a narcissist resulting in no healing for the family. Generations before were not allowed to carry a grudge and were encouraged to resolve issues.

[@Sunmoonandstars123]

Unless you’re Scottish, then it’s a feud and lasts for generations.

[@lesterdiamond6190]

you haven't met my brother.

[@DarkerSideOfDawn]

If they do .. I would be honored to be a part of it. when my abusive marriage ended .. my born children turned on me.. my bonus children stepped up for me .. My ex is a master manipulator

[@danitaminer6863]

WOW! 🤗😁👍👍

[@DarkerSideOfDawn]

Boom! You said stonewalling.. Where is that behavior learned?

[@libbyrumary4939]

Too bad there was typing and clicking going on!!! She needed to mute herself….

[@jann9507]

The interviewer has done a horrible job !! 1) stop typing 2) read only part of the question that’s relevant to the topic and cut out the rest of the crap 3) mute yourself when the professor is speaking.

[@-Deena.]

Wow....

[@ruthhugo8935]

Your criticism is so rude considering the incredible excellence of this presentation. Small thing the typing annoyance compared to the wealth of I formation.

[@bbelizy9627]

Agreed!

[@bbelizy9627]

Stop typing! So annoying and rude!