The Dark Side of Science:The Horrific Stateville Prison Malaria Experiment 1944 | short Documentary

[@PlainlyDifficult]

I hope you all find this one interesting! I think it will be the last Dark Side of Science for a while.

[@milesbrush4863]

Thats to bad there one of my favorites

[@AltGrendel]

Understandable, I would imagine researching this stuff is depressing to say the least.

[@davidmedlin8562]

I think I understand and get it thank you for what we've seen love all your work.

[@SimSetSoPalestine]

When did US Prisons Experimented on inmates . What Race were they ? Nazi’s got a lot of inspiration from America .

[@nsahandler]

You should consider tagging in and out of these topics with a collaborative partner. Topics this difficult to cover will definitely take a toll on someone. Chill out for a bit, mate.

[@cameronhaney4892]

Love that pic with the men wearing nets on their heads but with exposed arms and legs. Nice job guys, you really understand the principles at play there.

[@danatmonst3594]

I think we all paused the video here and shook our heads.

[@JoshuaTootell]

Reminds me of when I worked a hazmat job. This guy ripped holes in his suit so he could get to his cell phone. Contaminated hands onto no longer clean pockets into a now contaminated phone...right to the mouth 🤦‍♀️

[@danatmonst3594]

@@JoshuaTootell 😱

[@StephenMckeighen]

@@JoshuaTootell The answer is obvious because of the suits but What were you working with exactly so I can recoil in revulsion properly?

[@luv2luv720]

@@StephenMckeighen good try lol

[@NickJohnCoop]

It’s a strange thing for one of these ‘Dark Side’ episodes to have a case where it’s still awful,but not as awful as it could have been.

[@PlainlyDifficult]

Indeed

[@habaduba2383]

Considering it was accompanioned with a storry of torture and genocide of 1200 people, think its quite up to standard

[@xminusone1]

It's not as worse as the mk ultra/mk naomi experiments that were done using unsuspecting public and the most vulnerable people in our society.

[@chrisj2848]

Hey PD, this was an incredible episode, really well paced and explained. You have really found your stride! Also its so cool to know you make your own soundtracks!!! 👍

[@PlainlyDifficult]

Thank you I really appreciate it! Glad you enjoyed it!

[@fastinradfordable]

@@PlainlyDifficult = rock star

[@CrimsonSw1ft]

Just as I was searching for a new Plainly Difficult video! I think these science topics are a good contrast to your usual disaster content, but either way I love a new upload! 😁 Great work! 💪🙌

[@PlainlyDifficult]

Thank you

[@CantHandleThisCanYa]

Every Saturday my friend, like clockwork! 😁

[@Insharai]

Love the science ones so far from what I've seen!

[@C2K777]

The Nuremburg Code. That creation designed to do so much to protect so many, thrown out the window so readily.

[@chrismay2298]

It was just a show.

[@Killerspieler0815]

The Nuremburg Code was ignoresd 2020-2022 ("Corona"-sting) as well globally

[@greentree180]

Do one on borellia, Bartonella and rickettsia. These were all tested on humans and have been left to run wild today.

[@bethanywordsmith5231]

Kudos to getting the name of the prison correct!! I worked at Stateville between 1989 and 2002, and got very tired of being asked what "Statesville" was like. It was a maximum-security prison, which usually housed prisoners serving longer sentences for more serious felonies or who had caused discipline problems at lesser-security prisons. The round house was still in use when I worked there.

[@jbird7782]

often confused with the Old Joliet Prison from Blues Brothers

[@miss.guidedghosts7858]

Super interesting video! One note on pronunciation, the word "Quechua" (referring to the people and the language) is pronounced "KEH-chew-uh" rather than "kwey-CHEW-uh" and for any future reference, most of the time with words that come from Yucatec mayan (a language mostly found today in fragmentary surviving words and names, mostly in the Yucatan peninsula) if they include an X, it makes an "ish" sound, like the "sh" in the word "sluSH". names like Xochilt are pronounced as "sho-cheel". Keep up the good work!

[@enigma591]

You must be a riot at parties. Bless your heart!

[@Julia-uh4li]

99.9% of what you tried teaching everyone here, doesn't pertain to really anything in this video, BUT personally, I actually appreciate learning that. Cheers

[@mnxs]

Came for a video about immoral scientific experimentation, (also) learned about Yucatan Mayan language. Gotta love the Internet.

[@initial_C]

For that matter "quinine" is pronounced "KWY-nine", none "kwinning".

[@gabrielleeliseo6062]

Also, Plasmodium falciparum is pronounced fal-sip-a-room.

[@chrisw6164]

This is why I drink as many gin & tonics as possible. Keeps my quinine count strong.

[@PlainlyDifficult]

:D

[@twocvbloke]

Whether misunderstood, misinterpreted or misrepresented, they did at least make an attempt at consent, even if it was with a somewhat captive audience...

[@PlainlyDifficult]

They did make an attempt

[@foo219]

A very marginal difference at best. And when you're only marginally better than what went on at Dachau you're on pretty thin ice...

[@av_oid]

@@foo219 That even if you were part of the half that survived the Nazi malaria experiments, you were killed anyway is only a “marginal” difference?!?!

[@1xivix]

If you could do a video on the tuberculosis experiment at Willowbrook state school it would be appreciated.

[@PlainlyDifficult]

Thanks for the suggestion!

[@puddingcake3002]

Can I just say that the panopticon model is psychologically horrifying. It's the anxiety haver's nightmare. At any moment, you could be observed, so for as long as you were in prison, you had theoretically zero privacy. You could be judged at any time for any reason. I would have a hard time sending even my worst enemy to that reality.

[@PlainlyDifficult]

It does seem pretty cruel

[@foo219]

Prisons overall tend to be inhuman nightmares. Even here in Sweden where we try to treat people decently we still stack several people in one cell, which is just unacceptable. It's bad enough to be locked inside somewhere, but being locked inside together with someone is just inhuman. Human being need human company, but we also need solitude. It's a fundamental human need and to interfere with it is torture.

[@TwoJaysMoon]

Apparently it’s still in use in that prison, too

[@MintyLime703]

The only relief I ever get from generalized anxiety is at night when I'm alone and I know everyone's sleeping. Nobody's around or awake to bother or judge whatever it is that I'm doing or just me in general. For that reason I've been a night owl ever since I was a kid. A prison like that would be my personal hell. I genuinely believe I wouldn't survive there.

[@annakeye]

Thanks John. I would put Stateville around '5'. I'm assuming, and please, correct me if I'm wrong, that you are saying not all that nasty because of the times they were living in. I'm saying '5' because of the times they were living in as well. If it was done now (some would argue it still is but in a much less obvious way), then '9' would be right, specifically because they had to seek permission from the participant. That, in my opinion, almost makes things worse in Stateville because they knew that it was an easy way to manipulate the prisoners.

[@PlainlyDifficult]

I think my rating was a bit of the times and then in comparison to the crimes set out in the Nuremberg trials. Thanks for the comment

[@richardkaz2336]

@6:49 you state "251 case per 100,000 troops" which would be of little concern. However the actual case numbers as the CC shows is '251 cases per 1,000 troops' which is a problem.

[@tanjinpang]

Have to push this comment so that others spot this discrepancy. I think the number is 25.6% www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2241971/?page=5

[@TwoJaysMoon]

It’s a concern to those 250 out of 100,000. That’s pretty harsh my dude.

[@richardkaz2336]

@@TwoJaysMoon You totally missed the point dude.

[@douro20]

They reopened the roundhouse at Stateville Prison in 2020 for purposes of forceful quarantine. It is probably the largest such roundhouse in the country.

[@stuffedninja1337]

Day started off sad, but then I remembered, it's Saturday! New Plainly! Fascinating that you ranked it that low. I'd have gone with at least a 5, probably 6. Considering all the side effects that can linger from this, it feels much more unethical than it was made out to be, regardless of the participants' past. even people I hate don't deserve to have lifelong heart issues (except child molesters, they deserve suffering). also, for a moment I forgot that the UK drives on the opposite side from the US, and the ending was very disorientating. xD;

[@Keenath]

Eh, I think a 3 is about accurate. A zero would be a totally safe, morally unambiguous test. In this case, the consent was somewhat dodgy, but they did know they were signing up to catch malaria, which was pretty well known at the time in terms of what it could do to you, and it's entirely possible the doctors actually explained more in person than what was in the signed document. They weren't told they might be testing experimental drugs that could have serious side effects, and that's the really dubious part, but still, on the scale of zero to Dachau, it's gotta be a pretty low score.

[@odd_shoes]

The people I hate do.

[@calendarpage]

For something similar, take a look at 'Acres of Skin,' by Allen Hornblum. It recounts how mostly black prisoners from Philadelphia were used for drug experiments, many of which were for dermatology products for companies that are well-known today. Many were scarred for life. Participation was encouraged because it gave prisoners a little spending money, which positively affected prisoner behavior. Some participated because it gave them money for commissary goods, which they could use to avoid unwanted sexual advances. Sadly, because many men were from very poor backgrounds, no one on the outside funded thier commissary, so without participation, they wouldn't have any money. The studies raise questions about race, consent, research ethics, research on prisoners - the list goes on.

[@Chironex_Fleckeri]

Suggestion: the Pellagra (sp.) Experiments. "With the cooperation of Mississippi's progressive governor, Earl Brewer, Goldberger experimented on eleven healthy volunteer prisoners at the Rankin State Prison Farm in 1915. Offered pardons in return for their participation, the volunteers ate a corn-based diet." - National Institute of Health (NIH, a US government institution) The study supposedly promised American convicts freedom for eating a diet deficient in a critical vitamin - B-3. The goal was to test the theory that many Southerners in the US were not contracting a communicable disease, although one could see why it presents as one. This was during a time when people were just beginning to understand TB, Polio, etc. Germ theory. Many of the subjects developed serious pellagric rashes. Dr. Goldberger injected himself with pellagric blood to prove that it wasn't communicable. This was a disease that was causing tens of thousands of deaths in Southern States, primarily an effect due to poverty. Ethical quandary. There isn't a lot about these experiments, but they were as critical as the goiter (enlarged thyroid, iodine deficiency) experiments in changing the way food was fortified. Iodized salt, niacin-enriched wheat flour. It essentially eliminated these once-prevalent diseases. It was just the ethics of the Pellagra Prison Experiments that were particularly... questionable. I think it's interesting. Maybe others do as well!

[@PlainlyDifficult]

Thanks for the suggestion

[@Chironex_Fleckeri]

@@PlainlyDifficult Sure thing. Been watching your videos for years. Love what you do

[@samanthaivyleigh]

I remember something about that, like scurvy needs citrus, they just needed iodized salt to cure the pellagra? Interesting 🤔 that would be a great pd vid

[@CoastalSphinx]

@@samanthaivyleigh There were two common nutritional deficiencies that were identified around the same time, but aren't directly related: Vitamin B-3 deficiency, best known for causing pellagra, cured by niacin which was added to flour. Iodine deficiency, best known for causing goiter, cured by iodine which was added to salt.

[@abrahamlincoln9758]

The problem with The Nuremberg Trials is that they established a standard of justice that none of the Allies had thought to employ at home and have scarcely been interested in implementing since.

[@chrismay2298]

That's because it was all a big show.

[@thorin1045]

it just maintained the victors write the historybooks baseline. if the other side won that war, than the us/uk/su horrors would be well known and demonized, while the ones displayed in nuremberg would be turned into minor cases and it was in a war, so it was acceptable and such.

[@ElJulioso]

Yes, it was the sort of "justice" meted out by the victors against the defeated. The large-scale bombings of innocent civilians by the allies (who did it on a much, much larger scale than the Axis) is objectively much worse than the horrific malaria experiments, given the immense death toll, but not one ally was ever charged with war crimes because of it.

[@cactusman1771]

@@thorin1045 Even then it was really only the Germans who got the main punishment. Japan got off with a pretty light punishment. Victors write the history books is debatable. A lot of misconceptions and lies about WW2 Germany come from German generals and other high ranked people in nazi germany who survived. I would say survivors write history.

[@thorin1045]

@@cactusman1771 technically that part, that the surviving germans could tell anything, lies or not is also a victors write the history, but for the next war (cold war), the western writings would not be in play if the commies win that. and of course it is muddled with a bunch of other issues. Japan get off relatively easy is the result of the cold war too, the us needed japan during and after the korean war.

[@ewkerman4185]

I think you missed a part of the horrifying part. Were the Prisoners really criminals? or were there guilty of stuff like "selling cotton after sundown?

[@judahcreighton1544]

im pretty sure laws like that would have sentences less than 18 months

[@Keenath]

I assume you're referring to Jim Crow laws here. For what it's worth, the participants in the study were all white males of similar age and in good health, so you wouldn't have anyone who had run afoul of racist law enforcement.

[@VarjoMedia]

It doesn't matter. You are imprisoned for the crime you've been sentenced for. Whether you did something horrendous or just a minor thing does not change that no one has a right to subject you to such treatment. Imprisonment does not mean forfeiture of your human rights.

[@Keenath]

@@VarjoMedia Which treatment are you referring to that represents a forfeiture of human rights? The informed consent was iffy, but at its core everyone involved understood that they were signing up to intentionally catch malaria for science. This is one of those events that we look back at and go "oof, that was not good" but at the time it was a new high point in medical ethics. Our current view of it was largely shaped *by* the Nuremberg Trials forcing us to recognize that it wasn't nearly good enough.

[@k33k32]

As the video says one of the prisoners was Nathan Leopold, who, with his cohort Richard Loeb murdered a 14 yr old boy. These were wealthy, white Chicago college boys who left incriminating evidence at the scene of the crime (Leopold's expensive glasses) among other clues.

[@cherbearian]

Thank you for another harrowing example of the importance of full informed consent. I love your series, but I am a medical laboratory scientist with a microbiology specialization and this murdered me (despite it being an excellent episode) - the species name is pronounced fal-si-puh-rum. We had an entire unit on the Plasmodium species; they continue to be a huge problem. Nothing But Nets is an excellent charity if anyone wants to look into it ❤️

[@PSUQDPICHQIEIWC]

Informed consent is hard to achieve when lying is not merely unpunished, but defended.

[@LintuLumessa]

Holly shit, that video was quite triggering. I am actually Austrian and also the granddaughter of a Holocaust survivor and I've lost a huge amount of relatives in concentration camps. Some of them even fell victims to medical experiments. I honestly couldn't even finish the video, but thx for talking about it.

[@scottessery100]

It’s amazing how morality and human rights was never considered… assuming prisoners had no humanity or rights

[@grmpEqweer]

...We often forget that now.

[@jhoughjr1]

No one in the US hanged for our medical crimes

[@brentlolacher3000]

Tis a shame.

[@rcwagon]

Rating: well I would say a 4. Compared to the other dark side of science videos, this is the least egregious of them, but not spelling out what the hazards were clearly in writing means they were hiding something. Malaria wasn't unknown, but what did the late 1930's prison poplation know about it and its effects?

[@leechowning2712]

Actually a fair amount. At this time malaria still would occasionally break out throughout South United States as far north as Washington DC. Malaria has been a constant issue for anyone working in moderately tropical environments for a very long time, and we actively monitor throughout Florida Georgia and the virginias for signs of this infection returning, because malaria is extraordinarily hard to treat without the use of these powerful drugs, and the illness actually taking up residence in the bone marrow leading to very common repeat infections. Even today programs around the world are seeking a way to finally beat this pest into Extinction, and so far having failed.

[@michaelholston2233]

Yeay I am #3. Denver Colorado for Plainly D. Loves this guy.

[@PlainlyDifficult]

😬

[@NoGoodNamesLeft]

And people think the internet scammers are the only bad people to worry about lol

[@SteveFrench_420]

Maybe some do. 1/2 of the country knows the government is the biggest danger. Especially the "intelligence" services. FBI, NSA, etc

[@Ceretrea]

Definitely higher on the unethical scale. A lot of these prisoners would have only been in for 2yrs max so, possibly, for something minor. Not worthy of a lifetime of side effects or death. Even if they weren't, they deserve to make an informed choice. But I highly doubt they'd have offered to parole any lifers on this study.

[@Meenadevidasi]

Lot of nasty things go on under the pressure of war. It's kind of like the rules get bent.

[@oculusangelicus8978]

This is the reason why I have nothing to do with medical research, because they have a hard time disclosing all of the possibilities of a new medical drug when they themselves don't know the effects the drug has on the human body. I was asked to partake in one where they didn't disclose ANY possible side-effects the drug possibly could have, and this was only two decades ago. and They likely had a who team of lawyers to protect them in the courtroom, while I and the other unfortunate people who trusted them have to fend for ourselves. No thank you!

[@rogankarns8]

Morning

[@HexyTech]

Afternoon :)

[@PlainlyDifficult]

Afternoon

[@TheTotallyRealXiJinping]

‘Got my pills ‘gainst mosquito death, my buddies breathin his dying breath.’

[@ItsLunaRegina]

They say "inhuman acts" regarding war crimes but humans are the only ones that do sht like that.

[@bimlauyomashitobi421]

Oooh. I see that you removed the clickbait thumbnail.

[@mackmcmillan9905]

Hmm, same thing with the COOF pokes...

[@johnr797]

"It was taken and exploited by Europeans." Is that a different way of saying the Europeans saved thousands of lives?

[@Le_Comte_de_Monte_Felin]

If you count the small-pox blankets distributed by European invaders in North America... well... you do the math.

[@commisaryarreck3974]

Colonialism bad Bringing millions into civilization and centuries ahead in technology bad

[@jacobfreeman5444]

No. They didn't do it with the intention of improving quality of life for all. It was no doubt used quite recreationally and only for those who were deserving, ie, wealthy. Never forget we humans are selfish, self-centered creatures. Anything to the contrary is a self-serving delusion.

[@johnr797]

@@jacobfreeman5444 proof would be welcome

[@perrydowd9285]

There's an important side to the difference between a victim and a volunteer that has major implications for volunteers in the civil situation. This video reminded me of the words of Returned Services League Victoria President, Bruce Ruxton, in response to a situation where Army volunteers from a nuclear trial in the fiftees found themselves legally blocked from claiming compensation for chronic health problems due to radiation exposure from the government. Rule number one is DON'T VOLUNTEER. Morality aside, you have almost no chance of legal compensation when it all goes pear shaped.

[@dracorex426]

The American experiment was clearly unethical, but it wasn't part of an act of Genocide, the subjects actually had to agree to participate, and they didn't murder anyone after the experiment. Also it wasn't done to a racial minority. I'd give it a five.

[@TheStefanskoglund1]

though if it saying no means risking to end up in isolation ? or ending up in a place like Angola in Mississippi ? Angola, a rather nasty plantation worked by prisoners - come in at 90 kg and out at 60.

[@Rika914]

Yeh I thought similarly. I would have given it a 6 though. The most significant problem imo was the giving of cytotoxic drugs for which there was no informed consent. Their consent is pretty much meaningless given how vague an explanation they were given. Prison was the punishment for those men's crimes, noone deserves to be given poison and not told what it is.

[@reddwarfer999]

It doesn't make it any less bad that it happened to whites rather than blacks though.

[@scottessery100]

@@Rika914 I agree. And then there were “terminal” patients injected with plutonium one being an Australian child another didn’t have terminal cancer. Then the troops “volunteered” to be given nerve agents or exposed to fallout

[@SvarogAristaeusAllen]

I don't know if you can call it agreeing to participate if you don't know what you're consenting to

[@Sebastianator01]

Back then they believed the whole experiment was okay. We ask today was the experiment unethical? HELL YEAH IT IS

[@PlainlyDifficult]

Pretty much

[@Johnrich395]

Sounds like it was much more ethical than the currently running human experimentations with mRNA.

[@lovesiriusblack]

You should do one on Vipeholm experiments in Sweden, most people thing we are angels, nice to get a more realistic view. Think there are more than just the vipeholm as well 🙃

[@foo219]

I'd rate it an 8. It's not PURE evil, but then, neither were the studies at Dachau. Both experiments at least tried to learn something. If they did it just for fun, THAT would be a 10.

[@PSUQDPICHQIEIWC]

Is it ethical human testing if participants are neither informed of the expected possible side-effects nor of the fact that they're participating in a human drug trial in the first place?

[@Т1000-м1и]

you should have also made this a collab with legal eagle channel and also include and rate both the Stateville and also and the German one and also done a deep dive analytical section (approx 3 hours) on how the malaria virus itself works and also a section on the consent of the microorgranism ethics and also their free will of choice and also....

[@PlainlyDifficult]

Sounds good!

[@Yezpahr]

7:27 Ah yes, Dutch Dominance... We sure left a bunch of carnage behind wherever we dominated. I can totally understand the monstrosities we performed have made you unwilling to do another video of the series Dark Side of Science, yet what we did in the America's was nothing compared to what we did in the Indo-regions... The prison system across the world learned a lot from us. I would rate this experiment a 7 on the evil scale. No informed consent, survivors were murdered, evil enough to sentence 7 of the 23 to death. (is that why you rated it a 3? 7/23 = 3.04)

[@thearisen7301]

This was about the US study that had informed consent and used volunteers although the info provided was very general and used criminals who would naturally be inclined to volunteer. The Nazis tried to use it defend themselves but it didn't work because the Nazis were using concentration camp prisoners with no info or consent, etc, so their defense lost.

[@Polo1683Official]

Hey i grew up just off the edge of the map you showed at 9:15, I know alot about the history of the area since its exploration in the 1800s and the trading post at isle a la cache (fished there since I was a baby). Ama about the town and history! So cool and surreal to see my old neighborhood on the first video I watched today!

[@jedgrahek1426]

12:28 "They were all white men" Lol I am truly shocked, not the way this usually went... Wait.... did they *really* need to test the effects of a much too large dose on one poor random person, when they already knew it was a very dangerously high dose they were giving him, probably already knew the general negative side effects of normal doses and could extrapolate, etc... it seems extra thoughtless and cruel to do that test, when they honestly didn't need to actually see someone die to know that level of the drug was very dangerous.

[@stupidburp]

To me it suggests that the study of the efficacy and safety on nonwhite patients was considered not important enough to spend resources on by these study leaders. Given the widespread discrimination that nonwhite service members experienced at the time, if the treatment of malaria for them was viewed as an afterthought it would not be surprising.

[@jensaugust743]

Let's be real here, it was probably just due to the dominant race in the prison being white - and as such, would have the largest pool of possible participants. Everything doesn't have to be racist

[@evey89]

You should do a dark side video on the experiments the US did in Japan after the atomic bombs were dropped. Instead of treating them, all they did was record the effects of the bombs on survivors. Made me cry when I heard about it.

[@TwoJaysMoon]

@@MyHentaiGirl you think kids deserve to die horrific deaths because their parents, or really more specifically their political leaders were shitty people? Would you be willing to pay the price for the atrocities your politicians partake in?

[@jamesnicholson3658]

@@MyHentaiGirl As a guy from a Country that faced incendiary devices, the doodlebug bomb and a general blitz I can state with certainty that civilian populations should not be the target for any kind of bomb. I would even argue the US use of nuclear devices on civilian population centres is immoral, abhorrent, and verges on a war crime. I understand how brutal the Japanese Army was, we faced them ourselves, however when you act in a brutal manner in facing a brutal enemy you lose your moral high ground

[@Patco11]

If dropping the bomb saved even one American life, it was the right thing to do.

[@TwoJaysMoon]

@@Patco11 you think a rando American is worth hundreds of japanese children? Yikes dude.

[@Patco11]

@@TwoJaysMoon Yes I do.

[@phoebesmith8154]

I read the transcripts from the doctors trial. It’s both horrifying and fascinating.

[@saltyreesescup3104]

So If That Was A 3...Where Do You Put The Current Medical Experimentation At ?

[@dmhendricks]

Nobody care about muh colonialism. I can get lectured about that literally everywhere else. I did not colonize anyone and thus feel no guilt.

[@capacamaru]

Isn't the introduction of quinine to Africa kind of a good thing though?

[@aldenconsolver3428]

Very interesting and well worth viewing. For the time the protocols at Stateville prison (IMHO) were reasonable and proper. There were undoubtedly medical experiments done in the same era in the US that were almost as barbaric as the concentration camp 'studies'. If the defence attorneys had used the Tuskegee untreated syphilis study it would have been much harder to discount the similarity (I suppose that the fact that the Tuskegee subjects were not murdered afterwards would have to count for a lot, (but still Tuskegee was clearly unethical and certainly racist). Very glad to see that this did lead to a uniform code for the carrying out of medical testing.

[@theotherlauren]

This is fascinating (and awful). Thank you for all the work you put in to making these videos!

[@nco_gets_it]

The best part of this one is that there was no shortage of malaria cases already at hand. There was no need to create more...but as I always remind my family, atrocities in all societies are often thought of as "experiments" by "scientists".

[@hermanrobak1285]

"There was no need to create more... [malaria cases for the study]" Yes and no. For treatment after infection, they could have enrolled malaria patients. Though, without the controlled environment, they would need a larger cohort of participants to smooth out the noisier data. This might take more time than they thought they could afford to wait during a war. For preventive treatment, the waiting time could be *way* longer. If the infection rate is not super high, it can take many months, even with thousands of participants, to get a good "signal" from the results. Hence the "challenge" infection, to skip that waiting. Urgency is a frequent provider of moral license. Beware of events or attitudes that lead to emergencies, or promote a sense of urgency.

[@juliusapriadi]

​​@@hermanrobak1285Good point about the dangers of urgency. I just got scammed by s.o., because I was a bit to quick with a pre-payment for an offer to good to be true. One hour later I received an automated warning by the online market place about that person, but he (or she) was already gone with my money...

[@evebrassard3105]

My rating at the time of the experiment is 1. In todays terms it would be a 4-5. Cheers

[@mirensummers7633]

When a vulnerable population without a source of income is offered to be in a study for money and reduced punishment, where the risks aren't fully explained and patients are deliberately endangered by being administered toxic levels of drugs, that is an unethical study, there is no debate.

[@knomesaynmafk4789]

So if you just drank tonic water containing quinine would that be enough?

[@ploed]

I love the speed you going with this video!

[@earbjr4715]

How about mrna use on humans, specifically children?

[@yeastyboyx]

Always a treat seeing these in my feed. I hope everything's well.

[@PlainlyDifficult]

Thank you

[@MindinViolet]

Wow, how could they possibly think it ok to conduct a study so obviously unethical? I don’t think this study is a grey area at all. This study was just evil. I would rate it an 8 or 9.

[@MegaFrannypants]

I mean, it's a bit of an oversimplification to call the panopticon "brilliant." There are both practical as well as ethical issues 🤷‍♀️

[@Yora21]

"Well, I could be wrong, but I believe Ethical is an old wooden ship that was being used during the Civil War era."

[@justinwatson1510]

Getting incomplete information about how you are being used in an experiment is equivalent to getting no information at all. Prisoners are still humans, and I would say this should be scored closer to an 8 or 9.

[@Waterlilyy]

I’ve really enjoyed this series! Would be interesting for you to do a video on how pregnant women were treated and babies delivered in hospitals in the early 1900s. Some pretty non-evidence based scary stuff.

[@DarkWarchieff]

Panopticon is what the Dutch Koepelgevangenis uses (dome jail) right? I live near a high security prison, but that one just looks like a mix of a school and fortress.

[@joethebrowser2743]

Mr South Londons Saturday upload Great. 👍🏻🇬🇧

[@PlainlyDifficult]

Thank you

[@joethebrowser2743]

@@PlainlyDifficult not a problem. 👍🏻

[@ddivar8149]

Too bad Richard speck didnt get several doses

[@nonyadamnbusiness9887]

Given the time period, I think it might be better to ask if it was ethical to sacrifice hundreds of thousands of young Americans putting out yet another European dumpster fire.

[@esteban1487]

A 3 seems low

[@AlphaHorst]

It is funny that the Nuerenberg Trial would probably also fail the modern test of justice because of its use of the Nuerenberg medical ethics code. (And other things that have changed since then) As they judged people on a code written after their imprisonment/during their trial.

[@SqualidsargeStudios]

The us was and is not a hair better then the nazis

[@turdcalzone7636]

2:06 You say 1944, but the title says 1945. But, wasn't it truly at 1946? Just kidding, but yeah.. Also who is writing the CC? There are lot of misspelled words etc.

[@Le_Comte_de_Monte_Felin]

Automagic KZbin dunderness.

[@turdcalzone7636]

@@Le_Comte_de_Monte_Felin So what you mean is that the captions are autogenerated? Even if a whole part of text is presented, and not by word alone?

[@volvo09]

​@@turdcalzone7636 it's been my understanding that KZbin auto generates it, or you can chose to do your own. I saw a comment once where someone was laughing that "you snuck penis into the CC a few times" and the author replied that he doesn't do CC.

[@turdcalzone7636]

@@volvo09 yeah, I know about that. But there are LOTS of information such as names which gets fked by auto CC, but this video got names right, so I suspect its not been autogenerated, just our guy here with his dyslexia, haha! No, but seriously I dont know shit, since Im not a creator... Just a penny for my thought.

[@Delicious_J]

Excellent channel name sir

[@landrec2]

What an intro... buckle up!

[@knomesaynmafk4789]

Id pay to see someone dissect a mosquito

[@CantHandleThisCanYa]

Ah yes, it is Saturday…. _time for some good ol Plainly Difficult death and destruction_ ❤️

[@jhoughjr1]

Yeah I’m sure Africa would be Wakanda if Europe never came around.

[@bcubed72]

Wow...is quinine really pronounced "kwinning?" Always thought it was "kwy-nine."

[@CoastalSphinx]

It's a regional thing - most UK dialects pronounce "kwinning", most US dialects pronounce "kwy-nine".

[@MrEnjoivolcom1]

Just a heads up, it could be just me, I could easily be mistaken myself but... I truly thought, I had been subscribed to the channel being I watch your videos quite often. Here recently, again I could've swore I was definitely subbed, just having previously had this prior thought and made sure to click the button. Upon clicking this video, I see I'm not subscribed. So I click to sub. I could be mistaken, I admit. But I really do feel I had already subscribed. Simply wondering if you knew of anyone else on your channel had this problem. 🤔

[@davesmith5656]

Plainly Difficult - I have to fight through the absolutely ridiculous dee-dee-dee-dee-dee excuse for a bumble bee symphony going on in the background. Maybe next time you could find ambulance sirens to loop? I just stopped watching.

[@BTW...]

Rated 7 / 10

[@Insharai]

Yeah 3 is fair for this xD different time for sure, loved the connotation to the military vision on prisons being useful and generally certain places being difficult to ocupy. Really brings up some questions, and im one to normally question the financial, we're just along enough i hadnt concidered something like viral lol

[@2Fast4Mellow]

The problem with ethics is that it will come back to bite you. Ethics are often more a 'do as I say, not as I do' mentality. We (the US) did several (phycological) experiments on prisoners in Gitmo. The US has a rich history regarding this subject. Another great example are top secret documents presidents like to take (and keep) home. One claiming that a garage is good enough security, the other removed the 'top secret' classification and therefor technically didn't had top secret documents at home...

[@mvb88]

How do I put this. Ww2 was bad but it improved modern medicine so much. Like beyond what you could imagine. So it's bad what Germany and Japan done but it was good what they done. You personally most likely benefited from what they done. Your alive so you did.

[@F40PH-2CAT]

OMG this is where Frank Drebin sent all the criminals he caught while with Police Squad! (In Color). Surely he knew....

[@Т1000-м1и]

Haven`t seen your videos in a while

[@PlainlyDifficult]

Oh no welcome back!

[@amberkat8147]

I know that it's pretty much impossible to find a situation where testing on prisoners is not coercive at the very least, but it's amazing how the very existence of the Holocaust victims' was criminalized to the extent that those doctors really couldn't see the difference. And then there's the "aftercare." On one side no attempt to actively harm the participants beyond the effect of the study was made and they were rewarded for their participation. On the other, the VICTIMS- because they had no option to consent or to refuse- were simply killed if they had any issues and then killed afterwards if they were too badly effected to be worked to death. And somehow those doctors and their lawyer didn't see any really difference there either?! Like seriously, how are those sets of things at all alike aside from "people in custody being experimented on." That's the ONLY similarity!

[@thereal757_ap]

Aye, I live super close to Stateville. I did know about this, but not much about it. Very interesting. They also put on a, killer, haunted house attraction.

[@deepat]

music is great, keep it up

[@janegregory2445]

Couldn't cope with the hideous, intrusive and unnecessary 'background' musak, so switched off after about 3 mins

[@christopping5876]

What about an episode on the Northwick hospital, London, TGN1412 drug trial in 2006?

[@alexander1112000]

I’m gonna go ahead and say if Leopold had died in an experiment, I wouldn’t be too put off. Beat a kid to death to prove you’re one of Niche’s Supermen? Yeah, I don’t care too much about your life anymore.

[@nexaentertainment2764]

251 per 1000 cases or 100000 cases? The subtitles say the former, but you spoke the latter. Which is the correct number? I imagine the former, as the latter is not a particularly large incidence, at least not enough to cripple a military.

[@mikeall7012]

Surprisingly, i don't have an issue with this. It's not too far off from letting a convicted soldier complete a high risk mission for their freedom. I submit there is no way to prove it, but im sure the prisoners who volunteered knew the risks were greater than what was being disclosed. Show me a prisoner who trusts the warden, so to speak. This gave condemed men a chance to feel some semblance of redemption. I know thats an oversimplification, but based on the follow up interviews with participants, there is truth to the point.

[@mercster]

It's funny how people today look back and ridicule with scorn how things were done 100-200 years ago. nO iNfOrMeD cOnSeNt oF tReAtMeNt fOr dEaDlY dIsEaSe. Good lord, grow up.

[@Zigurath100]

I hope it stays safe and effective, and does not become oops.

[@Kayaya]

so basically the na.zis' argument was "the americans did it too"? yea well that's of substance, can't see them losing the trial now! /sarcasm.

[@Delkot]

Its not the same but both needs to be punished. If it was the other way around usa would have won anyway beacuse they are “good guys”. I mean i hate nazis as much as anyone but their defence is the same “for the greater good”. People should be objective and shouldnt say “but they did” and make them pay for their crimes.