Planetary Imaging - Seeing or Focus?

In this video, I attempt to capture Jupiter 3 different times and finally come out with a somewhat decent image. It's a struggle trying to figure out see and focus when just getting started.
Seeing examples - www.damianpeach.com/pickering.htm
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#astrophotography

[@atacke3736]

Great vid Joe. It's good to watch someone working through their issues. I'm right there with you. Nice setup, not there yet. A gun seems to work well against bear. The noise almost always makes them turn tale and run. It's your yard not his. Keep the vids coming.

[@CosmuzzAstro]

Hi Joe Been a while since I left a comment. I am always cautious with phone Apps. Shame it didn't work for you. Your patience really payed off I think. Like anything, the more we do something the easier and better it gets, but we all have to start somwhere. I have no clue when it comes to this side of the hobby. I thought it was a super capture and you now have a bench mark to progress from. Look forward to seeing more in the future. Thanks for sharing buddy, I really enjoyed the video! Clear Skies and watch out for Yogi Bear!!!

[@JoesAstrophoto]

Thanks so much Ben! I’m hoping to continue to work on planetary again when the moon is bright. It’s giving me something to do when it’s too bright to get DSO data.

[@AstroParkAstrophotography]

Nice video Joe, and your initial images of Jupiter look great! I'd like to suggest a focusing tip that I've learned that's been working for me so far, and it works pretty well with Jupiter. I use a Bahtinov Mask to achieve focus on the planets as well as deep space objects. When you're in FireCapture, start by increasing the Gain to its max value temporarily to overexpose the planet. Then put on the Bahtinov Mask and use one of Jupiter's Galilean Moons as a focus point. You should see that classic diffraction spike pattern on the moon, and you can adjust the focus knob accordingly to get the best possible focus. But as you mentioned, the seeing conditions and your location are the limiting factors for imaging the planets. I have to deal with the jet stream where I am in Maryland, so it can be a pain sometimes. You're off to a great start, and I hope you'll stick with it and make some incremental progress!

[@JoesAstrophoto]

Thanks so much AP and great tip for focusing as well! I’ll give it a try.

[@JohnMcGFrance]

Hi Joe. I know how you felt! I’ve been deep sky imaging for over 10 years but thought I’d give Lunar imaging a try. I started with just visual observing through a 10mm eyepiece on my Edge 8 and couldn’t believe how much the image moved in and out of being sharp. It was like those heat image things you see on roads on hot days. I found the best solution was to shoot at least 10,000 frames and select just the best 5% in Autostackert. Even then you need to hit lucky for good seeing. I’m sure you’ll get something you’re happy with eventually but it may take a few nights and some luck. Clear skies .

[@CaptRescue2]

Thanks for keeping it real Joe! Always learning something from ya!

[@JoesAstrophoto]

Thanks Cap! It’s been quite the struggle but I’m not giving up.

[@gregerianne3880]

Thanks so much for sharing your experiences, Joe! Very helpful. I'm just starting to do some planetary imaging with my EdgeHD 8 (after just getting comfortable doing DSO imaging!) and it's really an entirely different ballgame. Your video was helpful. Thanks again!

[@michaelasbury5473]

Great video! Eventually I’d like to get into planetary imaging as well. This is very useful information. I went through a similar issue with solar observing. It took me a couple of days to get it where I could get the sun in focus.

[@JoesAstrophoto]

Thanks Mike! Also good to know on solar as someday I want to try that out as well.

[@LogansAstro]

Great video Joe - very useful for those starting out with planetary imaging and what to expect. While getting good focus and having good collimation are important, from my experience, the seeing plays a HUGE part in what kind of image you capture. This year when doing my imaging of Jupiter, I had really disappointing results the first few nights and I was trying to figure out what I was doing wrong. But on one particular night the seeing was vastly improved and the detail in Jupiter just jumped out which then made getting focus a hell of a lot easier. Having the GRS or a moon shadow present also helps to find a good focus point. So I totally agree, if you have everything else pretty much right, the seeing, I think, plays the biggest part. As you managed to post this video, I guess we can presume you didn't get eaten by the bear.... phew!

[@JoesAstrophoto]

Hahaha thanks Logan, I’ve managed to avoid the bear for another year. I appreciate the comment and confirmation that I’m doing it correctly. Its so hard to know when just getting started and after almost two months of falling it’s nice to finally get something.

[@siegfriednoet]

Great video Joe, lots of information for someone like me who is setting his first steps in planetary imaging, thank you

[@JoesAstrophoto]

Thanks Siegfried! I hope your experience goes smoother than mine.

[@siegfriednoet]

@@JoesAstrophoto hmmm, not really ... 🙂

[@JoesAstrophoto]

Sorry to hear man.

[@Astronurd]

Use a flip mirror for easy planet centering on your sensor. There's no backfocus or extenders needed for planetary especially with an SCT.

[@avt_astro206]

Awesome Video Joe, Your Progress is amazing in Planetary! Tip: use Low exposure time and A High Gain to Get Higher FPS. It might give you Grainy frames but You can Use The Denoise Slider In registax in High levels To Clean it up. collect around 3000 to 4000 frames For the Best Results, Stack Some best 50% ot 60% of the Frames. Nice Work Joe the Great Red spot is Clearly visible. Hope You have a Chance to see Mars, I saw It rising late at Night!

[@JoesAstrophoto]

Thanks Avanteesh! And thanks for the tip I will give that a try. I’d be super excited to get images as good as yours and Mars is on my list to get on the next full moon.

[@legacysearches4481]

MAN! This is right on time for me. I am struggling with doing planetary with this scope.

[@JoesAstrophoto]

Thanks LS, the struggle is real, but keep at it. I’m really glad I kept plugging away now, but I almost gave up twice in the few months of trying.

[@thecampingastronomer8554]

Glad that you suffer from the same problems as me as regards finding the planets on your screen and trying to get them focused. You are right about the seeing. I happened to be imaging the moon earlier this year on a night which turned out to have fantastic seeing. I couldn't believe what a difference it made to what I was seeing on screen. Your perseverance paid off in end Joe as you did get a nice image to show for your efforts. And you didn't get eaten by a bear, which has got to be a win 🤣

[@JoesAstrophoto]

Hahaha thanks John! Every August through October, I'm dealing with them, but that's ok, just part of living in the mountains. Finding the planets is so much harder than I ever thought it would be.

[@IcemanAstro]

Damn Joe, you sure did have to go through a hell of alot of stuff when it comes to getting that photo!! Astro is tough sometimes man. I'm hoping it doesn't take me a month to get a photo of Jupiter. Clear skies bro

[@JoesAstrophoto]

Thanks Isaac! I’ll be honest, I almost gave up twice during the 4 outings to get 5 decent minutes of video lol. I sure hope it’s faster for you.

[@dumpydalekobservatory]

Great video Joe seeing is definitely the key when it comes to planetary to get a nice crisp image, I think Damian Peach once said on a video to get a decent image here if you see low lying mist but the skies are clear it usually a good time to shoot some frames as the air is still. The jetstream really screws up the seeing here though so that one decent seeing night is very rare.

[@JoesAstrophoto]

Thanks DDO! I never realized how drastic the seeing can change the quality of what you get until now.

[@RaysAstrophotography]

Nice work Joe! Good to know about seeing conditions. I am also not that particular about it.

[@JoesAstrophoto]

Thanks Ray! I’m guessing with your C14 the seeing is even more critical, but your planetary images are always amazing man!

[@RaysAstrophotography]

@@JoesAstrophoto let's compare seeing one night soon. I will post my seeing and same from you and lets compare images. I am learning in the seeing too

[@JoesAstrophoto]

Sounds like fun Ray! I’d love to work with you man.

[@DSOImager]

It's a whole different game Joe, isn't it :) Nice shot!

[@JoesAstrophoto]

Thanks James, it really is! I’ve never had to worry about bad seeing to this degree before.

[@SimonsAstro]

Great video Joe! What a worry about the bears! Don’t blame you for wanting to be 10ft away from your door! Very good effort mate, nice image at the end, you can clearly see the giant red spot! Planets can be tricky, I wouldn’t have a clue🤣 The ipolar is supposed to be able to polar align without direct sight of Polaris! Although I’ve never tried that😀Clear skies Joe!

[@JoesAstrophoto]

Thanks Simon, I should have taken the time to use another camera and polar aligned, but was hoping that app would have worked.

[@dalilama2000]

Hey Joe! Glad I could help a little but sorry no help with the bears!! To me seeing is really the biggest factor as you now know. If transparency is good too that's the best case for me in northern Illinois. A very good first image but the big win for you was the ride up the learning curve. Glad you made great progress - you deserve it after all that work!!!

[@JoesAstrophoto]

Thanks Brian! I’m glad you talked to me about it. I hope other’s starting out in planetary see my vid and not give up or think they have broken equipment like I did at first.

[@HeavenlyBackyardAstronomy]

You are soo right about "Seeing Conditions" when it comes to planetary. High winds aloft and mountain waves definitely obstruct vision plus, and this is a big plus for me ... HUMIDITY. High humidity bounces those light waves all over the place. I am always fighting to get focus on the planets and usually just end up 'guessing' what looks like the best focus. Now if you think this was a challenge, go try and focus on Mars. Mars is tiny compared to Jupiter and Saturn and that bright red light just jumps all over the place. You got to have good seeing to get it. BTW, thanks for the shout-out.

[@JoesAstrophoto]

Thanks Pat! And thanks for all the great planetary tutorials! While I was out capturing the data and also trying to edit the images, I could here your voice explaining the steps lol Much appreciated my friend!

[@DavesAstrophotography]

Great job Joe. Glad to see you experience the same issues as me, makes me feel like it is more 'normal' and not just me being a buffoon. As for your bears......... you can keep them, venomous snakes and spiders is enough for me when out in the dark, fek the bears! I sh!t myself enough turning round and seeing stray cats staring back in the darkness!

[@JoesAstrophoto]

Thanks so much Dave! It is good to know I’m not alone in the struggle and you’re right, I kept thinking, I’m doing something wrong, but I never really was. Just very inexperienced. The wildlife scares me as well, but I’ve grown up with it my whole life and am very bear aware.

[@AstroQuest1]

Excellent video Joe and you get the diligence award for sticking with it. I did some planetary stuff 7 years ago when I first started out with an 80mm refractor and have not done it since - I'd be lost. Your images turned out pretty good in my opinion. Too bad the polar alignment app does not work - I was interested. Make a lot of noise when you go out at night, I believe that alerts the bear as they really don't want to see you anymore than you want to see them. From what I understand for planetary the seeing is most important and for DSO imaging transparency is most important. I think your trials and experiments seem to confirm this. Cheers Kurt

[@JoesAstrophoto]

Thanks so much Kurt! Nothing like jumping into something you know nothing about and trying to figure it out lol. I completely agree with the seeing vs transparency and I’m glad I’m a DSO imager first and foremost because the conditions seem to be much more favorable for that in my part of the world.

[@AstroQuest1]

@@JoesAstrophoto Yeah never thought about how the Mountains make it worse in your area. Side note - a bear bent my bird feeder pole over so it can get to the food a couple of weeks ago. - Not fixing it until the bears hibernate.

[@JoesAstrophoto]

We can’t put bird feeders out either. I have to keep the trash dumpster in the garage as well. But glad to hear I’m not the only one with bear problems. Dang bears lol

[@GarnettLeary]

Hey Joe great video. Very real. Something that will greatly benefit you is WinJupos. I deal with the jet stream and ocean air so I can relate to atmosphere. When you’re shooting above 30fps surely there’s a sharp one in there somewhere. Your percentage is probably really low on good frames so a derotation is your best bet. If you’re uncertain about focus I can offer a few tricks. One is to overexpose Jupiter and then use one of the Galilean moons to focus. The terminator of the Moon works great if available. Something I don’t see anyone mentioning is collimation. I have absolutely no doubt in your ability to perform and check it but have you? It’s super critical. What may be acceptable on a dso could look total trash on planets because the magnification is so great. I’d toss the barlow. With bad seeing you’re better off with ROI and higher frame rate. You’re chopping your own legs out by slowing your system down. Typically anything under 10 meters in fl can be exposed for 1 minute. Above that you’re around 40 seconds. You should be able to grab 4 sets for derotation. I totally feel your pain tho. Recently I ignored collimation on my 180 Maksutov, thinking no way that could be it especially on a mak, to waste four nights. It was off. I’d be happy to send you data on what a typical night looks like in eastern NC. It helps to have reference. I hope something in this was useful. I’ve been at planetary a really long time. Love it. If you somehow aren’t familiar with Christopher Go, look him up. Most of his work is mono but essentially all the rules and methods apply. The deepest stuff nobody talks about are inherently bad in color cameras. For example you really need a low histogram on blue shooting Mars. Hard to accomplish on OSC. A really good Saturn image takes around 40 minutes of derotation and variable exposure rates. I mean to say the next level stuff. People shoot breathtaking deep sky targets and think to themselves they’ll jump right into planets and spank it. That’s the setup for a very humbling reality check. Unfortunately the seeing is the greater majority of the deciding factor. Damian Peach travels to Barbados to shoot. If you can’t escape the atmosphere your best friend is speed. If you’re doing everything else correctly you absolutely only benefit from higher frame rate. Toss the barlow and get WinJupos. I guarantee that will help.

[@JoesAstrophoto]

Wow Garnett! So much useful info here man! Thanks so much for taking the time to share. I will check this all out. You got my number when you said some people shoot great deep sky objects and think they can jump right into planetary. Exactly what I thought and wow was I ever humbled.

[@GarnettLeary]

I learn something from all your videos. It’s a pleasure to watch your content. Clear skies.

[@JoesAstrophoto]

Thanks Garnett! That's so awesome of you to say man!

[@astrogeekman]

Hey Joe, I feel your pain. I noticed that when I moved to Kansas in July, the hot, humid, mosquito weather heat dome seemed to provide the best seeing I've ever had with the planets, and after it cooled down, almost impossible for a good shot. I enjoy using Sharpcap as well. I recomend getting a flip-mirror for the scope, it lets you put different eyepieces and makes centering the planets much easier.

[@JoesAstrophoto]

Thanks AGM! I’ll check the flip mirror, sounds cool. Usually after it snows here we get amazing seeing, so maybe after next weeks storm I’ll give it a try.

[@astrogeekman]

@@JoesAstrophoto yeah, the flip mirror was a game changer, made going outside to image more fun.

[@andyrawlins]

Polar Align Pro works fine but its relies on the compass in the phone and this is affected by the metal in the mount. I borrowed someone else's idea and made a bracket that holds the phone about 30cm away from the mount and this helps a lot. Its good enough for wide field milky way stuff etc. Its not going to work for high mag planetary though. Thanks for the video. Those bears sound scary!

[@davecurtis8833]

Nice work joe, I’m starting planetary imaging too. I’m having similar issues with seeing too 😊. No bears down here in NZ.

[@JoesAstrophoto]

Thanks so much Dave! Good to know I’m not alone in the struggles. You guys don’t have bears but the trolls and middle earth would be my concern in NZ hehehe 😜

[@davecurtis8833]

@@JoesAstrophoto Yes, those little hairy trolls can be annoying during scope setup ;-)

[@JoesAstrophoto]

Hehehe

[@seansmith908]

I'm in SE Louisiana. I'm about to dip my toe in the planetary pool. I'm not sure what to expect but I know the humidity etc is going to be rough. through the eyepiece Jupiter mostly looks like its boiling. I'll need some serious lucky imaging. Always enjoy your vids Joe. Just finished my skyshed, I'm catching up!

[@NG-VQ37VHR]

I'm in SE louisiana also. Walker, specifically. The humidity and being at close to sea level does make imaging difficult. But I did some of my best jupiter and saturn imaging a couple weeks ago. So you should be able to get some usable pics. We are at quite a disadvantage down here though. Still, It is amazing what autostakkert and registax are able to do with the mess of lucky imaging we get down here.

[@JoesAstrophoto]

Thanks so much Sean! Congrats on your obsy man! It really transformed the hobby for me.

[@JoesAstrophoto]

Great point NS! I was blown away at the difference between the raw video and the job that Autostakkert and Registrax made.

[@jesuspineiro1622]

You can try NINA's three-point polar alignment. It only takes 5 minutes to be almost anywhere in the sky without the need to see the pole. I use NINA with my 10" SC. I set up the alignment using a medium format camera with the guide scope and the 462MC on the SCT to capture planets. Regards

[@JoesAstrophoto]

Thanks Jesus, I thought about it, but didn't think it would work with the 462 and 2x barlow at the time, but it may have. Good point!

[@jesuspineiro1622]

If you want to use the WO Z81 as a guidescope, you can mount it on the SCT with a Losmandy dovetail and rings. That's how I use it.

[@jesuspineiro1622]

@@JoesAstrophoto In my case the 462MC on the SC10, but to align with NINA I put the 533MC on my Guidescope 70 x 400mm

[@JoesAstrophoto]

Yeah, I need to grab another guide scope for sure.

[@vinoner1]

I laughed so hard on this video. I love how you’re so honest. 🐻 Bears!!! We only deal with huge rats 🐀 in Chicago. Thank you for the video Joe, it was fantastic.

[@JoesAstrophoto]

Thanks Vin! I’m thankful we don’t have rats here, but we get lots of field and deer mice. Glad you enjoyed the video.

[@trevorgreen2232]

Ah the struggles of polar align and focus are real but I would think being attacked by a bear is a much bigger concern :) Great video thank you .

[@JoesAstrophoto]

Thanks Trevor, funny thing is I was just talking to one of my neighbors about the bears. Her husband was washing the car in the driveway and a bear was just walking up the road and he didn't even stop washing his car. He has lived in the area so long, he's just used to them being around. I've only lived here about 4 years, but I don't think I can live here long enough that I won't run when I see one.

[@davidletz9123]

Thanks for this video! I have a 5" Maksutov. I was under the impression that I did not have to concern myself with back focus with this type of telescope, as I would with a refractor. Am I mistaken?

[@JoesAstrophoto]

I've learned that back focus is not a concern. My issues all have to do with bad seeing in my area.

[@davidletz9123]

@@JoesAstrophoto Thank you for the swift reply. If you had to make a choice, which would you prefer for planetary imaging, SharpCap or Fire Capture?

[@JoesAstrophoto]

@@davidletz9123 I've tried both and I would suggest you do the same as they are both essentially free. It's been awhile, but from what I can remember, FC was easier to figure out, but I think it was easier to find my target in SC.

[@JoeJaguar]

hey Joe for 29 years i always obsever 99.9% alone what i used to do is put a small radio playing (not loud) but in the back ground. Animals have way better hearing then us so do you think that would work? They would hear music or radio for couple hundred meters away and know there is human's there so better no go that way? Joe

[@JoesAstrophoto]

Hey Joe! Thanks man, that's definitely worth a try. I'll give it a shot next night out man.

[@Ronbo765]

I have never been able to get an accurate polar align with Polar Scope Align Pro. The author says that magnetic interference from the mount causes inaccuracies which required me to find a way to mount the cell phone off axis away from the steel AVX saddle which was too much trouble for me. Your saddle looks to be non-magnetic aluminum. I found it better to just align at night and mark the tripod leg positions in the ground (I know you had no visual access to Polaris, but you could plate solve).

[@JoesAstrophoto]

Thanks Ron, yeah I wasn't having much luck the that app. I've just decided that when I can't be out in the field, I'll just be in the front yard where I can see Polaris :)

[@AstroRef68]

Cool Where did you get those green nobs on the dovetails?

[@JoesAstrophoto]

Thanks AstroRef, the knobs on the saddle came with it. It’s an upgraded saddle from ADM.

[@AstroRef68]

@@JoesAstrophoto I see Thanks

[@gunnarjensen5910]

Off-axis guider works well with a 2030 mm focal length ??

[@JoesAstrophoto]

Hi Gunnar, I usually use my OAG when doing deep sky imaging, not sure how it would work, if at all doing planetary. I really wasn't having issues tracking the planet once I found it.

[@user-dr8ug3gs3c]

17:39 I think I heard a bear growl. lol

[@JoesAstrophoto]

Hahaha thanks J! I’m hoping the bear is gone for the year. Now it’s just coyotes to deal with which are much less scary.

[@anasantacruz9483]

Hi! wouldn't it be both?

[@JoesAstrophoto]

Hi Ana, it is, but without decent seeing you won't be able to focus at all.

[@anasantacruz9483]

@@JoesAstrophoto thanks

[@anasantacruz9483]

You are completely right

[@hael8680]

What kind of bear do you have around?

[@JoesAstrophoto]

Hi Ha, it’s just a smaller brown bear, although it looks black, but I’m still weary of it. I hope it’s gone for the year now, it’s getting pretty cold here now.

[@hael8680]

@@JoesAstrophoto Keep some old pots and pans near your gear. If you slam them together you will make enough of a rattle to startle the bear long enough to get back to a safe spot. I have done that with coyotes.

[@JoesAstrophoto]

I’ll give it a try, thanks!

[@kajouman]

be carewfull with that bear,they are real fast.

[@JoesAstrophoto]

Thanks, I no I can't outrun them from what I've seen.

[@KylesAstrophotography]

Seeing can make or break a session. If the seeing is poor, it isnt even worth setting up in my opinion. Everything will look like its in water when the seeing is bad, and the results just wont be there. The same issues apply when visually working the planets - your views just wont be nearly as enjoyable as when the atmosphere is stable. Those nights of stable air are always fantastic for the planets.

[@KylesAstrophotography]

Also, one thing that may help when finding the planets with an SCT- if theyre out of focus a lot you can turn up the gain and exposure on the camera and you'll likely see some part of the out of focus 'doughnut' of the planet. If you center the dark center spot of the doughnut and refocus youll have the planet in the field of view much easier.

[@JoesAstrophoto]

Thanks Kyle, I’m learning that the hard way, but it’s still fun trying. You always have wonderful images so I only hope to get to where you are.

[@JoesAstrophoto]

Thanks Kyle, I also discovered this by accident and it’s so much easier to find the planet this way.

[@keithhanssen7413]

I like Sharpcap the best

[@JoesAstrophoto]

Thanks Keith! I think I do as well, but will keep trying and learning both since I’m so new to planetary.

[@keithhanssen7413]

Planetary is tough. Collimation and seeing are the two main factors that can degrade your video. I’m sure you know how to focus.

[@JoesAstrophoto]

Thanks Keith, I never knew it was so difficult, or maybe the word is frustrating for me anyway lol

[@keithhanssen7413]

@@JoesAstrophoto I always stress about simply landing the planet on my sensor at that long focal length. Carefully aligning your finder with the camera is a must. Try to nail it. You can use a centering eyepiece to get the planet centered then slap in the camera, but then you need to focus again. I usually find and center at native focal length then slap in the barlow. It still stresses me because I’ve had several frustrating nights where I wasted time simply finding the planet. Other nights it went smoothly.

[@JoesAstrophoto]

I will try the eyepiece out as well. Good tips!

[@drandrewclarke]

yeah, I found the app useless as well