Binning the ZWO ASI2600MM PRO

In this video I experiment with binning the ZWO ASI2600MM PRO in 2x2 hardware on M81. I also compare images from the ZWO ASI2600MM PRO between bin1 and bin2 at 2032mm and also an ZWO ASI294MM PRO in bin2 at the same focal length.
For some reason I thought there were two videos on this but I guess there is only one, but it's a great watch.
James Lamb video on resolution: • Maximizing Telescope R...
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#astrophotography

[@calimark7448]

Nice work. I just got the EdgeHD 9.25 with the .7 reducer and ASI2600Mc. A learning curve for me. Thanks for the vid. Clear skies!

[@JonnyBravo0311]

Hey Joe... quick point about hardware vs software binning. The CMOS sensor in your 2600MM does _NOT_ hardware bin, regardless of the marketing statements. It CAN'T hardware bin. That is only available in CCD sensors where you actually can combine the analog signal. CMOS binning is digital - and therefore via software. Sure, it may be done on camera, but it is still software binning.

[@JoesAstrophoto]

This is great info Jonny and I was wondering about this, but couldn't get a definitive answer from anyone. So then it really makes no difference on the pixel scale at all. I'd say it's too bad, but I'm not really thrilled with the 6.5MP resolution so I wouldn't be using it even if it could do it. Thanks again Jonny for confirming this!

[@Luftbubblan]

​@@JoesAstrophoto " So then it really makes no difference on the pixel scale at all" I'm not sure about this one. As i understand it one wont get the additional light gathering from a software bin as with a hardware bin but you would still benefit in terms of guiding(Pixel scale). If you dont need the extra guiding ability then it wouldnt make any sense to software bin and loose fov over just downscaling the bin1 image and keep the fov. Another thing i don't think works with software binning is drizzle. . Would love to get this clear because its been bugging me for a while, and i find different answers all the time :D

[@JoesAstrophoto]

@@Luftbubblan I believe Jonny is correct, he's really good about this stuff, but I couldn't find that answer either which is why I tried it out for myself. That being said, I don't care for the loss of resolution enough though to bin even if it did effect the pixel scale on the 2600. On the 294, which does effect pixel scale, bin2 mode results in 11MP which I can live with and if it actually worked I could see binning the 6200 as well, but the 2600 binned is only 6.5MP and it's almost impossible to get a decent size print with that resolution or to crop in much either. Maybe the next gen of astro cameras will have more capabilities.

[@adventuresofshadowdog]

Joe, I really enjoy your channel and your gentle way of teaching. Keep up the good work!!!

[@JoesAstrophoto]

Thanks so much!

[@hael8680]

Interesting video! I will try binning next time I use my C8 to image. I have 2 unrelated comments and questions: where do you live? That scenery off your deck is breathtaking! What piece of music did you use at the end? Her voice is amazing! Thanks!

[@JoesAstrophoto]

Thanks Ha El, I live in the foothills of the Rocky Mountains in Colorado. It's a beautiful place to live and wouldn't trade it for anything. Sorry on the music, but I don't remember which track I used for it. I just grab tracks I like from Epidemic sound and edit the video then delete the tracks to save space on my drive. If I come across it again I'll let you know.

[@srikanthmeg]

I've done the same thing with my 2600mm last year after I purchased it and I thought what a mistake it was and learnt a lot about binning in CMOS cameras after I bought the camera. However, now I am using 2600mm on my hyperstar setup which is a better setup. All in all, 294mm is an amazing camera in bin1 and bin2 modes. No wonder it's price never changed

[@JoesAstrophoto]

Thanks! I agree, I love my 294MM, it's the most versatile camera I own.

[@DSOImager]

Great video Joe.. good to see the experiments. I think the 294mm, despite it quirks is hard to be on an edge 8. Just seems like a really good combo. Now you'll just need to get a new scope for the 2600mm. When's the unboxing video coming? ;)

[@JoesAstrophoto]

Thanks James, the 294MM is truly an amazing camera for what it does and especially on the EdgeHD 8. I'm still looking and deciding on either a 4" refractor or 6" reflector.

[@DSOImager]

@@JoesAstrophoto Very interesting in seeing what you end up with :)

[@Astrobloke]

@@JoesAstrophoto Reflector....Do it lol

[@JoesAstrophoto]

@@Astrobloke Hahaha

[@Astrobloke]

Thanks Joe. I can now relax and not have to experiment. I shal keep my 2600 in Bin 1x1. Luckily we both have mounts that allow us to guide and image with the scales that gives although mine is not quite as low as yours in scale. The 294mm is such a fantastically versatile camera and its a shame that ZWO doesn't do similar with other sensors. clear skies man

[@JoesAstrophoto]

Thanks Glenn! Pretty much the case, bin1 with the 2600 only. I feel I’m getting better detail for sure.

[@Astrobloke]

@@JoesAstrophoto titally agree mate

[@azrayastrophotography2260]

Hi Joe I just watched the video repeat. Very interesting about the binning. I recently received my 9.25 Edge Hd scope and will have to try the binning on it more. I have the same cameras and will have to experiment with them as well. Thanks for the great video.

[@JoesAstrophoto]

Thanks so much Ray! Just be mindful that the resolution gets cut down to 6.5MP. I wasn't happy with the details I got when trying to zoom in much. Congrats on the new scope as well, the 9.25 is a beast!

[@dalilama2000]

Really helpful and spot on video for this time of year Joe! I have a neat little chart of image scales for my cameras/setups and I can always see the star bloat with my C8 and 1600MM. The number tell me but I still do it! I use MT to get rid of it since I never use bin2 because you lose detail that you can't make up for in sharpening. You really showed that in your images. Kudos on another great video! Stick with bin 1!!

[@JoesAstrophoto]

Thanks dali! Yes I completely agree, bin1 only for the 2600. I may have to go back now and redo M81 and compare.

[@AZ4Runner]

this is the exact video I needed to watch Joe. I was wondering the same with the binning of the 2600. Great examples I think I will just shoot in Bin1 with the 2600 and now I think I need to get a 294 for my longer FL scope and next galaxy season. I do have an old CCD OSC camera with 7.8 micron pixel. Also glad to see that even the expert Astrophographers make the same mistakes that I make all the time. CS

[@JoesAstrophoto]

Thanks so much Jason, glad I can help out. I'm definitely not an expert though lol. I will forever be, or at least feel like the Journey Astrophotographer trying to achieve Master status.

[@michaelasbury5473]

Great image! One of my favorite galaxies.

[@JoesAstrophoto]

Thanks Mike!

[@LogansAstro]

Very interesting video. I've read some of the comments below about hardware vs software binning for the 2600mmPro which is also great info. Funny you mention about being out of balance as I experienced the same last night with bad guiding only to discover last night, that silly dew shield on the Esprit had slid backwards yet again and stuffed up the balance. Now off to put more velcros on it to stop the damn this from slipping again. Super images of the galaxies by the way.

[@JoesAstrophoto]

Thanks Logan, it really doesn’t take much to throw the 120 off balance, which is a good thing really.

[@OlliesSpace]

Interesting Information Joe and definitely worth looking at how binning works with the various scope/telescope combinations 👍 Also great having a scope with that Focal length

[@JoesAstrophoto]

Thanks so much Ollie!

[@AstroQuest1]

Such a good video Joe. I am so much for doing experiments yourself rather than relying what is supposed to be the best way to do it. When you were going over exceptional vs. good seeing in astronomy tools I was chuckling as I don't think it has ever been exceptional where I live - the best has probably been good. I was thinking about trying to bin my 1600 since it is mono but I never have. The 3.8 um for the 1600 is a good all around pixel size where as the 4.6 um is a little better for the Edge as you mentioned. Keep up the experiments. All of your images were awesome. Cheers Kurt

[@JoesAstrophoto]

Thanks so much Kurt! It's been bad seeing here lately as well, but in the Fall the air here is very thin and dry and we usually always have excellent seeing. I'm pretty sure as Jonny mentioned in his comment that the 2600 won't bin hardware even though ZWO states it does, it's not, and the 1600 won't for sure. You can only take advantage of the higher pixel scale if the camera will bin in hardware and so far the only CMOS camera I know of that will is the 294MM and only 2x2. I still had to try though lol...

[@desbarry8414]

You should definately bin this camera if it still has the dreaded sensor paste bleed that ZWO tried to deny was an issue, I bawked and bought the Altair 26C same sensor.

[@reidchandler6486]

Great video for what I was looking for, info on binning the 2600mm as I am up against galaxy season with the fra400 I'd like to take out the reducer and bin 2 to see results. I have the old C8 but it needs collimated.. For now I will try the Leo triplet maybe Markarian's chain or m101 and see what I can pull from that.

[@JoesAstrophoto]

Thanks Reid! Galaxy season can be difficult with a wide FOV, but sounds like you have a good plan.

[@alfredobeltran611]

Quite nice comparison, Joe. For imaging at f10 with your EdgeHD, apart from the differences in FOV, do you see better results with the 294MM or 2600MM? I´m considering those for my C9.25 EdgeHD.

[@JoesAstrophoto]

Thanks Alfredo! I like the 294MM a little more paired with the EdgeHD. The larger pixels give a slightly better imaging scale. The 2600MM is a better camera overall though and there is something to be said about the 16 bit vs 14 bit, but I think the images with the 2600 are a bit soft unless the seeing is amazing. I’m being super picky though, and I don’t think you’ll be disappointed with either choice.

[@HeavenlyBackyardAstronomy]

Good informational video Joe. I struggle with bin 2x2 versus bin 1x1. There are advantages with 2x2 with much smaller file sizes but as you mentioned, lower resolution and some loss of detail. On the other hand, there is some noise reduction advantage of using 2x2. I am also struggling using the OAG on the EdgeHD 11" at f/10. I am using the ASI 174mini guide camera with the large pixels but trying to lock on a guide star is frustrating. I guess I need to experiment more on the OAG (Celestron) settings.

[@JoesAstrophoto]

Thanks Pat! That Edge 11 is a beast man. At f/10 you are around 3000mm? I can see having issues finding guide stars at that focal length, but I bet you get some awesome close-ups on galaxies.

[@AstroCloudGenerator]

Great video Joe. Would you consider using bin 2 for the background and/or stars then blending it with the Galaxy processed at bin 1? That way it might be possible to get the best of both worlds.

[@JoesAstrophoto]

Thanks so much Richard! My first impression is to say that with the much lower resolution on bin2 that it would make it worse when combining, but to be honest I’m not really sure. May be worth a try just to experiment.

[@RussellsAstrophotography]

Really interesting video Joe, thanks for putting that together. Just had first light with my edge and 294mm pro, do you ever use bin 1 for the 294?

[@JoesAstrophoto]

Thanks Russell, excited to see your video on it. I always use bin1 on the 294 with my Z81, otherwise my image is soft, but on the EdgeHD 8 I only use bin2 otherwise I'm blocky.

[@SimonsAstro]

Interesting video Joe! A bit over my head, but I do know that with my setup (Esprit 120 & 2600mc pro) bin 1x1 and good seeing, I’m a bit oversampled at .92 (sweet spot 1-2), I think that’s the right way round😀 but really, I don’t care😀 I can’t really see the difference! (probably need to wear my glasses more 😂) Your galaxies look fine to me👍 especially M63, and I love bodes! I’ve recently done bodes, looks great! Cheers Joe! Clear skies

[@JoesAstrophoto]

Thanks so much Simon, I really appreciate it!

[@robertarmstrong9406]

Nice job Joe, I'm thinking about the 2600mm. For the money is it that much better than the 294? I'm moving from 533mc to the mono camera.

[@JoesAstrophoto]

Thanks Robert! I think it really depends on the scope you are going to be using it with. I like both of them a great deal, but the 2600 does have that 16bit sensor compared to the 294's 14bit. Also realize that the 2600MM is going to require larger filters and larger filter wheel than the 294MM which also adds a considerable cost as well.

[@robertarmstrong9406]

@@JoesAstrophoto I using the 8"se. I go from hyperstar to back focus. Giving me about 390mm to 1400mm focal length. I'm just wanting more definition and detail in my images than one shot color can give me.

[@JoesAstrophoto]

Honestly, I think you'd be happier with the 294MM. You can use it in Bin2 mode for when at 1400mm and Bin1 mode when at 390mm, and it's much less expensive for the camera and the filters. I think the 2600MM is more useful from 450mm - 1000mm range. This is just my opinion and I'm sure you find others who agree and disagree.

[@robertarmstrong9406]

@@JoesAstrophoto Joe thank you

[@abhijitjuvekar]

All ZWO mono bin cameras do post ADU binning of signal, so it is 'software bin' only. In case of Sharpcap software they have specific modes to choose between Hardware Bin, Software Bin. In that case Hardware bin works like Addition of signal increasing brightness for same exposures against unbinned modes. Software Bin takes Averaging algorithm thereby smooths the noise out. Both reduce the image resolution to 1/4 each time we increase bin power.

[@JoesAstrophoto]

Thanks abhijit, that’s great information! That resolution hit really makes it hard to print the images later.

[@abhijitjuvekar]

@@JoesAstrophoto I have 1600MM-Pro after doing Bin 2x2 the image size goes down from 32MB to 8MB & the image resolution from 16 Megapixel to 4 Megapixel. Want to know how much that reduction in case of 2600MM ?

[@JoesAstrophoto]

@@abhijitjuvekar It was 6.5MP, pretty much unacceptable to print anything large with 300DPI unfortunately.

[@abhijitjuvekar]

@@JoesAstrophoto & did you find any improvement in noise reduction after Bin 2x2 ?

[@JoesAstrophoto]

I thought so, but I was really going for the higher pixel scale, which didn’t work. I think it’s better to fix the background noise and stars in post processing due to the resolution loss to be honest, but I wanted to try it out.

[@anata5127]

Guiding is superb. HFR is about 3. Why? To get sharp details in galaxies, FWHM should be at least 1.5-1.7”. Now, how to achieve it? By the way, bin 2 mode is by miles better. I see much better resolution and better dynamic range, at least this is what KZbin shows.

[@olegsoul6016]

Hi, Joe! Which camera do you recommend 294 or 2600 for my Edge HD 1100 with alt azimuth mount with Wedge HD Pro? (for clear and sharp images). May be you recommend another camera for my setup& (my budget about $2K-$2,5K)

[@JoesAstrophoto]

Hi Oleg, in my opinion, the 294MM PRO bin2 mode would be better suited for the focal length of the EdgeHD 11. Check out astronomy.tools/calculators/ccd_suitability Enter your scope and different cameras and you’ll get an idea of pixel scale. If you can guide at or under your pixel scale consistently, you should get the sharpest image. Hope that helps.

[@avt_astro206]

Very Well Executed Joe. I have Used 2x2 Binning On zwo 224mc on galaxies, I was doing Short exposures!

[@JoesAstrophoto]

Thanks Avanteesh! I was looking at the 224MC for doing an allsky camera and possibly some planetary work.

[@avt_astro206]

@@JoesAstrophoto ooh! An all sky camera sounds nice! I haven't used ny all sky lens on mine cuz we have a lot of light pollution hear. For planetary the ASI 224 is one th best color cam!

[@chriscausseaux4793]

I’m surprised on the file size hit. Figured it’d be around half of 26mp but instead you got 6.5mp… whoa… Still looks dope though!

[@JoesAstrophoto]

Thanks Chris! It really is a huge difference for sure. No zooming in on that image lol

[@michaelasbury5473]

I tried bin2 early on when I first got my 2600MM with my EdgeHD. I did it only once, and probably never will bother again.

[@JoesAstrophoto]

I think I'm right there with you Mike, the lack of resolution is just not worth it at all.

[@michaelasbury5473]

@@JoesAstrophoto I’ve come to accept that I’m going to get mostly soft stars with my Edge HD.

[@jasonschella7206]

Just to muddy the waters - since seeing is the limiting factor for "usable" resolution, is there any benefit to shooting at F/10 with your setup (mine is the same, btw, except I have the QHY268M)? For example, if seeing is ~2", the ideal pixel size is ~0.7"/px. So if at F/10 the resolution of the camera is 0.38"/px versus 0.55"/px at F/7 - will you see any more detail in your image? If not, then the advantage goes to imaging at F/7 for reduced exposure time and larger FOV. This all assumes similar guiding at or below the resolution. I had imaged the Whirlpool at F/10 (0.38"/px; guiding typically < 0.4"; seeing around 1.8-2"), I then compared this to imaging at F/7 (0.55"/px, guiding < 0.5"; seeing around 2.5-2.7"). I have to say, I did not see any difference in the amount of detail. And this was with significantly poorer seeing when imaging at F/7. I still want to do some more imaging with , hopefully, better seeing and see what happens. Cheers, Jason

[@JoesAstrophoto]

Thanks Jason and awesome comment. Now I'll have to start testing that as well lol! It's a great point that just cropping in but having better resolution will be about the same or even better. Plus the advantage of imaging at F7 as opposed to F10 is substantial in either time saving or getting that many more sub-exposures. I didn't even think about it that way, but very cool!

[@AllenJeter20]

The ZWO ASI 2400MC has 5.9um pixels which is a better match for that setup at 0.69" per pixel. Still going to be hard mode I think at that focal length. The 2400MC costs 3k which is ouch. Better to image at like 1300mm with a C8 and 0.63 reducer. With that 2400MC pixel scale would be .96" per pixel with is about perfect. Another setup you see a lot is like an f8 RC with a CCD camera hardware binned 2x2 that's a good galaxy setup but you still lose the resolution and end up with smallish images. My solution is the Orion/Skywatcher 190mm mak newt at 1000mm f/5 paired with a 294MC Pro. pixel scale is .96" per pixel and reasonably fast, with a flat field, no diffraction spikes. Stock focuser is not up to snuff on the Mak Newt but that's easily resolved. Moonlite has a specific mounting plate for it. I guess I have thoughts because I have been trying to solve the same puzzle.

[@Safestassets]

If I understand this correctly, there is no point in upgrading to 2600 MM from a 294 MM pro if your guiding can't get below .4 arc seconds?

[@JoesAstrophoto]

Hi SA, not quite like that. If your pixel scale from your scope and camera combination is under what you can effectively guide at, then you won't be getting the best resolution you could from your camera. In my particular situation, the 294 performs better than my 2600 because it has larger pixels and thus a larger pixel scale to take advantage of the maximum resolution possible of my scope. The 2600 is by far a better camera than the 294, but in this case, I like the images I get with my 294 better. Hope that makes sense.

[@Safestassets]

@@JoesAstrophoto Thanks for your reply. I have an Edge HD 8" and EQ6 R-pro mount. I was thinking about getting the 2600 MM pro but it sounds like I wont be getting full potential and my images wont look as good as the 294 MM Pro.

[@JoesAstrophoto]

@@Safestassets SA, I'd say that's correct. Not sure if you subscribe to the DSO Imager channel, but James concurs with that statement as well. He also thinks the 294 does a better job with the EdgeHD 8. I hate to dissuade you from buying the 2600, especially if you have other scopes, but the pixel size is more conducive to smaller focal length scopes. Glenn from the Astrobloke channel also uses his 294 on his 1200mm scope for pretty much the same reason. The 2600 is an amazing camera though, but I think you'll find the images with the EdgeHd 8 a little soft. I still use it on mine from time to time to get the FOV I want, but I do sharpen the images quite a bit in post processing compared to the 294. Hope all this helps you out. I almost always use my 2600 on my Z81, it's awesome at that FL.

[@Safestassets]

@@JoesAstrophoto Hey Joe, all of this DOES help a lot. I'm glad I came across this video because I would never have known the 294 would be the better match for the EDGE 8. I didn't see anybody else mention this in any other video. I'm going to do more research before making a purchase but I am leaning 294 MM now. I already have a 294 MC Pro. Do you think the prism on the Celestron OAG would be too big for the 294 sensor?

[@Safestassets]

@@JoesAstrophoto Hey Joe, I am fiddling around with the CCD suitability calculator you demonstrated and I notice that when using 1x1 binning and a reducer, my resolution number is 0.55 for the 2600MM and 0.33 for the 294MM. This is a little confusing because that suggests that I need better guiding with the 294MM than I do with the 2600MM. Shouldn't the opposite be true? I guess this has to do with Bin Mode 1 and 2. I assumed Bin Mode 1 was 1 x 1 while bin mode 2 was 2 x 2. Looks like that's not the case. Thanks!

[@anasantacruz9483]

If the pictures are amazing

[@JoesAstrophoto]

Thanks Ana!