Plant Health With John Kempf | Regenerative Agriculture | Soil Food Web

[@soilfoodwebschool]

✅ Find out more about Soil Food Web 👉 bit.ly/3OidVin

[@davidscurlock2150]

i added rock dust and green sand to my soil mix in my first year. how long will these mineral sources last? And how often should i give my soil compost tea and should i use different types of compost?

[@KellyKorf]

Yuma colo

[@brennongarrett7919]

Regen Ag is like the two blind men trying to describe an elephant by which part they were touching. One said it’s like a tree (touching the leg). The other said it’s like a snake (touching the trunk). Both were correct but neither saw the whole creature. Each of the voices of the Regenerative Agriculture movement have a unique perspective and are coming at it from their own nuanced specialization. I love it, because they are all working together whether they realize it or not to paint this overall picture of how nature actually works. We will get this hammered out. David Johnson Elaine Ingham Ray Archuleta Allen Williams John Kempf David Montgomery Christine Jones Jeff Lowenfels Robin Wall Kimmerer Gabe Brown Joel Salatin Harriet Mella Nicole Masters Allan Savory Rattan Lal and I learn about more daily. They all have something of value to add to the conversation, and with experience, many of the rest of us will too. I do lean toward Elaine Ingham’s general approach to the importance of the soil food web, and it’s relative simplicity, but implementing tools such as John’s sap analysis is going to be integral in improving and verifying where we focus as we move ahead. We don’t need to get too dogmatic about the best approach when everyone is working toward the same goal, their own way. We all have blind spots someone else might just help us see.

[@666bruv]

A dam fine list, check out Di and Ian Haggerty, Grant Simms, and Walter Jehne

[@brennongarrett7919]

@@666bruv Thanks, I will! 👍🏼

[@Samthemancharles]

Thanks for the list, I somewhat agree with you but some of the people have a more encompassing protocol than others. I went to a regenerative ag workshop with Darren Doherty a few years ago and he doesn't have any perspective on soil mineral balancing and doesn't care but in his defense he is just all about cost/benefits which has value because all regenerative ag seems to completely Embrace the cow livestock model where people eventually make their $$ by eating the carcasses of course after they have killed humanely 🙄 which seems a bit oxymoronic.

[@drtootsi]

@@Samthemancharles What's your point?

[@audreybarnes6527]

Plant sap analysis is a European technology, I'm guessing Mr Kempf is in a position to offer access to his database.

[@zargos269]

John Kempf is a legend. Great to see these minds come together

[@tomf.2274]

Being a recent student of the Soil Food Web and devouring KZbin "Regenerative Ag" practitioners, webinars etc, for a few years now, this has been a good one. I really enjoyed the varied perspectives and also the respect for the work. I hear Elaine talk all the time about the work that still needs to be done. John coming at it with a different perspective and opinions on interpreting his observations while bringing fresh ideas to the table. I know in so many fields newcomers stand on the shoulders of those who have gone before. Also many come in from a different means and perspective with the objective of greater understanding being the shared goal in awe of nature and working with it. I like the perspective on bugs in a jug, cover crop vs perennial, and amendments vs biology. This whole topic of growing and respecting life and its diversity is so key to our survival, I want to spend my limited time left engaging with Life over stuff and the accumulation of stuff. Now, if I may suggest a good webinar that may challenge our perspectives, I would love to hear "A conversation with Dr. Elaine Ingham and Dr. Christine Jones.

[@theecoiqproject5859]

Good luck with that one... dr Jones is tricky to catch.. if it happens I’ll be there!

[@simonmasters3295]

Agree with all you are saying

[@inigomontoya8943]

I would loooove to hear that convo. Dr.Jones said something like most applied microbes are eaten up by existing biology, the benefits are from the chemical signals that those organisms produce to the plant, and also that the classical soil food web model isn’t as important as initially thought. It’s beyond my level of understanding to exactly figure what to think just yet.

[@B01]

@@inigomontoya8943 Jones discovered something with technology that wasn't available during the time Elaine Ingham was doing her initial and groundbreaking research. Electron microscopes (such as the highly advanced ones found in use today) to study bacteria and inside roots, roothairs etc was likely not available or within reach of someone without gigantic funding. The methods they used to dye individual bacteria to identify them within the roots was likely not possible either. We can assume such major funding was likely not granted to someone who kept getting told that microorganisms are "just there" and "don't worry about them" by major institutions. If Elaine's research wasn't as important as we thought, the soil food web approach wouldn't work as perfectly as it does. There is just one added step...directly and specifically regarding nitrogen cycling, bacteria and plant roots that was missed due to a gap in technology. There will be tons more to learn as technology improves!

[@inigomontoya8943]

@@B01 very well said. I can’t wait to see where we’re at in 5 years

[@remotecompute4687]

Dr. Elaine Ingham is my new hero, she's an amazing lady who is a great teacher and I love that she is sharing this information with others to save our soils!!

[@audreybarnes6527]

I very much admire her dedication, commitment and intelligence, she's put so much on the line to ensure this information is readily available to anyone who is interested. Not many people do that.

[@xxpowwowbluexx]

Finally these two are talking. John Kempf is simply a genius and has an immense amount of experience and expertise in this subject and countless examples of actual, practical results.

[@martylawrence9089]

My friend is taking Dr Elaine's course We are going to make compost at my place Alberta Canada 🙂

[@ontheotherhandgeorge8800]

Grabbing chips and salsa with so much enthusiasm as I prepare to settle into this inspiring hour or so. Lets feel the Earth shake under our feet as it stomps it feet in applause!

[@4given-c5h]

Just a layperson here. A newbie to Regen Ag and soil health with a personal veggie garden in zone 7B. Love everything discussed here. Please keep doing what youre doing! We need you all.

[@sweetbone96]

Just when I thought I couldn't get any more excited with the overwhelming information from the absolutely brilliant and dedicated team at SFW... along comes John and introduce another very interesting dimension. Thank you all so much, I am further buoyed with hope for a better future.

[@jamesrichey]

I've turned into a soil food Web junkie listening to all these lectures. Every time I listen I find new information that helps me as a gardener.

[@soilfoodwebschool]

We're so glad you find this information helpful!

[@lwhowell4387]

I learned so much from this particular podcast. One outstanding take away for me is how these brilliant people are able to share differing opinions without malice or the need to draw battle lines. Much respect to each of you. Much gratitude as well.

[@mattreinecke4399]

Thank you very much for this webinar. It was wonderful to hear them discuss their differences. It appeared that Dr. Ingham's "it's only biology" and Mr. Kempf's "it's primary biology" were actually closer than I expected. The only strange part of the conversation was near the end when Dr. Ingham showed her distate for cover crops. This wasn't expanded upon and was quite strange.

[@TS-vr9of]

She is an advocate for low growing perennials she likes to call "cover plants". Not sure why she seems to be dismissive of annual multispecies cover crops which have proven their worth on broad acre farms where compost and mulching and be cost and logistically prohibitive.

[@pyramidion5911]

@@TS-vr9of she prefers perennials so she can keep living roots in the ground indefinitely and preserve the mycorrhizael relationships those plants have. Also just a side note, some people use the terms cover crops and ground covers interchangeably but they have different purposes.

[@a_l_e_k_sandra]

In practice, it comes down to the scale of production.

[@PoissonPi]

John's comment about research not considering the health of the plant mirrors animal/human research. This is a point I've discussed numerous times in other arenas. Most medical research in humans does not use individuals adapted to fasting. Sure, they may fast for a short time prior to the study, but in terms of adapting to the shift in energy metabolism and underlying hormetic responses that occur over long periods of practice, research is limited. Recent research is slowly catching up, to be fair. What this suggests is that much of what we have come to understand about human patho / general physiology may be missing critical pieces of the puzzle. First time I've heard someone else bring up this point, and in plants no less. I've been interested lately in the link between modulation of stress response pathways in animals models as it pertains to healthspan and longevity, and in plants as they pertain to secondary metabolism and it's very cool how many similarities there are as it pertains to optimization of underlying biological systems.

[@nestor4895]

Interesting topics covered that haven't seemingly been introduced to the Soil food web people's perspective of things. I liked John Kempf's explanation of the foliar application combined with sap analysis being a way of accelerating the process. I have previously viewed the Soil food web approach as a sort of "acceleration" of applying the basic principles of soil health so it makes sense to me that he's trying to (and seemingly is) accelerating the soil food web work as well. In my mind it makes a lot of sense to have constant cover on the soil, don't create a disturbance (tillage or chemically), have a living root at all times, and have a diversity of species (soil health principles). These combined make the /habitat/ conducive to soil life, but don't actively bring them in. Soil food web has the solution to know the right general microbes and a have a way to introduce them into the habitat and make their home for themselves (if needed), but it's nice to have created the home already via the soil health principles. John's idea seems to be one step further in that the plants themselves are already revved up to feed the biology via foliar applications of the right nutrients to accelerate root exudation. It feels like a home run situation if you can follow soil health principles to create good conditions, SFW approach to introduce the right microbes, and foliars to stimulate the plant itself to already be in a healthy state and feed the biology just that much more. It's always nice to hear another perspective and it sounds like John has some good experience and is willing to learn as time goes on based on how he said he used to use Brix and then moved on to different tech because he saw its limitations.

[@Zenthanol]

I liked Dr. Adrienne Godschalx's point about plant health being an emergent property of many biotic and abiotic factors, as symbioses can change dramatically across environment and ecology. I felt like the overarching theme of this conversation was warming: even if there are contextual disagreements about some processes we all have the same desire to cultivate sustainably and holistically, which makes us allies in the Regenerative Agriculture Space.

[@brennagarten317]

certainly warm, with reservations, tho' some spoke without knowing who had or had not used certain techniques...

[@thegardenfarmer]

AWW! I missed this!!! I'm so excited to listen to this right now :) Edit. Taste/Flavor defines a healthy plant.

[@jjime1175]

What people don’t hear is that John’s approach is not just in leaf SAP and spoon feeding the plant/tree it is also addressing the soil with additional microbial and fungi populations with inoculates which also include compost so while waiting for the soil to get healthy enough to feed the plant, John work of getting the plant healthy first so when we talk about row crops ( greens, fruits,etc) they have a short growing season so by just addressing the soil only it may take a while for the true health to regenerate itself. I prefer to address both soil and plant health and am a true believer in plant SAP as it has worked for me.

[@audreybarnes6527]

My understanding from John's podcast is that he has in the past worked with farms such that once fertility has returned, no further inputs or consultations were required and he was able to walk away. Has that been your experience?

[@stanleychavez5790]

So true about the biology of the soil. We can't survive without it

[@Boonsbikes13]

Love all this information wish I could afford to take the class and get myself a microscope trying to start a small Homestead got injured a few years back and I’m trying to start over

[@colinandrews9425]

Great to see you again Adrienne. So much we need to learn. I have some confusion with ANY use of adding chemicals to soils that have some deficiencies

[@KyleDunnIt]

This is an incredible discussion, thank you for posting!

[@soilfoodwebschool]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@richardw.dekker82]

Thank You! This is all very valuable and usable information. I can't wait to suggest integrating it in the project I am a part of.

[@mastergrow1423]

The family garden on my property is over 90 years old. Planted every year. All regenerative.

[@brennagarten317]

Like Tom F, I want to hear Christine Jones and Elaine but also David Johnson discuss methodology, goals, and importance of regenerative agriculture, what the heck, throw in Gabe Brown, Greg Judy and Joel Salatin....

[@pyramidion5911]

Soil Avengers!!!

[@barbaramix1683]

This was very informative. I am trying to learn about soil and this helps a lot. I would love to learn more about microbes.

[@Alwayzsweet1]

Thank you so very much for this gift of knowledge

[@soilfoodwebschool]

You are so welcome

[@inigomontoya8943]

Some very smart cookies in this. Imagine adding Graeme Sait and Christine Jones to the mix. Bottom line there are so many brilliant minds working towards regenerative agriculture.

[@Samthemancharles]

J Kempf gives a great perspective, soil mineral balancing allows microbiome to develop, it's the stages the soil goes through. I feel that E Ingraham never seems to acknowledge this. I love Elaine's work but always curious why she never touches on this. If one is focused on biome before mineral balancing it will always be a struggle like rolling a rock up a mountain.

[@audreybarnes6527]

She probably doesn't acknowledge it because it's not proven science. There was a point in the conversation where her answer was something like, I'd need to check the academic resources before I could comment. It's her training.

[@simonmasters3295]

Try this, seriously... kzbin.info/www/bejne/laDZlaBorr1ng6M

[@audreybarnes6527]

@@simonmasters3295 Does it involve me sticking my head in a bucket?

[@Samthemancharles]

@@audreybarnes6527 'proven science' ??? Totally proven by William albrecht who was the head of soil science at university of Missouri and published a whole set of books about it. Are you ignorant of that or are you questioning the validity of albrechts perspective on soil balancing? Your statement reminds me of the arguement of using chemotherapy and radiation for cancer but I don't feel like going there.

[@Samthemancharles]

E Ingraham saying she has to check the academic status of that is totally Bogus... she's been presenting her talk at many conferences where Albrecht methods and Reams theory have been presented so she chooses either to not embrace it because it's not her idea or whatever reason but she has chosen not to educate herself of the value of soil balancing if what Audrey Barnes is saying is true.

[@johnnyb4869]

Great talk thank you ❤️

[@uncutbush]

Korean natural farming with lab serum and fermented plant juice and compost teas and you can’t go wrong and not only will Mother Earth appreciate your contribution but your plants will know your love them dearly

[@stevenrogers8001]

Plant tissue analysis, plant sap analysis, and soil microscopy are feedback loops to help guide the grower. After you do a compost or an extract application you can see the biology change under the microscope and the change in nutrient uptake with sap or tissue analysis. The same is true for applications of needed mineral nutrition. You can then view the effects on biology through the scope and change in nutrient uptake with tissue or sap analysis. The key is the data being fed back into the system to guide the growers' future actions.

[@inigomontoya8943]

If we are talking about inoculating with high fungal, compost, but mycorrhizal fungi only propagate on living plant roots. It doesn’t matter how perfect our compost pile is managed or what it is built from there is no way it will grow mycorrhizal fungi will it?

[@Gooutside88]

How do we measure photosynthesis? It should be analyzed in chemtrail stricken areas vs not.

[@soilfoodwebschool]

Thank you for the great question! Please contact us at [e-mail] so a member of our Science Team can get back to you.

[@joshuafinch9192]

I'd love to see some farms which employ Elaine's perennial cover concept. I've seen hints here and there with some farmers using white clover (as a monoculture), but I haven't run across any long form content covering them or others. Does anyone have any links to share? Perennial does sound ideal and I'd really like to see some of that in action. Preferably on a farm that is producing enough revenue to pay everyone who works there.

[@soilfoodwebschool]

Thank you for the great question! Please contact us at [e-mail] so a member of our Science Team can get back to you.

[@lwhowell4387]

Elaine mentioned Cover Plants, Perennials, as opposed to Cover Crops, tall annuals. Can someone please suggest species/varieties, specific names of Perennial Cover Plants.

[@ourglobalfamilyfarm]

I don't understand the "anti cover crop" idea mentioned in the conversation. Why are cover crops so bad?

[@benvanjaarsveld5779]

How do I make compost in the correct way ??

[@KyleDunnIt]

Check out the Johnson-Su bioreactor. Dr. Ingham likes the windrows approach but I think the Johnson-Su bioreactor is more practical for most people and may even produce more diverse biology.

[@davidscurlock2150]

Dr Elaine you said do not grow cover crops, but what about clover? are they not benificial growing side by side as a nitrogen fixator?

[@soilfoodwebschool]

Dr. Elaine really likes low growing perennial cover plants. You can find ones that are suitable for your location here: pfaf.org/user/cmspage.aspx?pageid=11

[@michelbisson6645]

so does using absorbant type to tea on foliar can help higher absorption mainly foe trace elements..

[@STEAMLabDenver]

Thank you!!

[@soilfoodwebschool]

You're welcome!

[@guiadepermacultura]

Thanks!!

[@soilfoodwebschool]

Welcome!

[@geraldfriesen5600]

While I can relate to Dr Elaine's idealism about using only compost for added nutrition, John Kempf has a far more targeted, efficient and proven technique for positive results that will motivate the grower even in the pocket of his/her wallet to continue with Regenerative Ag.

[@JRileyStewart]

I appreciate all the knowledge, but Dr Elaine seems to want to stay in the conceptual world, imo. How does saying "..solve all your problems by getting the right microbes in your compost..." without answering "What are the right microbes (other than anaerobes)?" help advance the knowledge base? And as Kempf said at some point.. 'it's not always about the microbiology (or lack thereof) in the soil." Her position just seems to me to be a bit too dogmatic around her particular biases (i.e., microbiology). Wish it were simpler, but it ain't.

[@Ghanzo]

The driver of all energy in the food web is photosynthesis. The sun is the progenitor of the food web via photosynthesis.

[@КонстантинШвайко]

Привет от Еретика из России! Думаю, что Элейн и Джону необходимо совместить свои усилия и создать совместный проект, это будет бомба! У себя я применяю опрыскивание по листу, а под корень биологию, и все прекрасно! С уважением Константин Тверской.

[@СергейАлдушин-э2щ]

Привет, Константин! Честно, не ожидал увидеть здесь коммент на русском. У кого бы поинтересоваться, насколько этично смотрится со стороны англоязычного зрителя, комментарии на русском? Я все свои немногочисленные комментарии, всегда переводил на понятный для них английский. Я в последнее время, подсел на ролики с Заком Бушем, он объединяет регенеративное земледелие и человеческое здоровье на своём опыте учёного и доктора медицины. Это что-то типа нашего Редько и Гундарова, только на более высоком интеллектуальном и духовном уровне. Нет того маразма с красными флагами и иконами в каждом углу, как у нас.

[@КонстантинШвайко]

Привет Сергей! Думаю не плохо англосаксам начать изучать человеческий язык, время пришло. С уважением Константин.

[@marlan5470]

I may sound a little dumb but it's something in the news recently: Sri Lanka's refusal to let in a boatload of seaweed from China that was found to be contaminated with some bacteria, I think. How can Sri Lanka use their own resources and make their own natural fertilizer so they don't have to be dependent on imports for their agriculture? It's a shame a country with so much rainfall actually has to import the stuff.

[@jasenkaosterburg4989]

Love, Serbia.

[@SARJENT.]

I always enjoy these videos. Unfortunately, the audio is poor quality. Only left side works. I'm deaf in one ear and I can't hear with the other. Thanks for sharing.

[@hugostiglitz3738]

You'll want to change your sound setting from stereo to mono if you're deaf in one ear.

[@martylawrence9089]

Awesome

[@audreybarnes6527]

John points at plant health as being the reason why carbon sequestration varies so much in the scientific literature (waving the stick that scientists don't know as much as they think they do) but doesn't mention seed variability. Anyone who has every grown a seed knows not all seeds are equal. Dan Kitteridge (John's mate) highlights his point in his lectures when he teaches his students to priorities weight and seedling nutrition. Later in the above discussion John acknowledges that modern seed breeding has gone so far as to breed seeds that only respond to modern synthetic fertiliser but doesn't mention his own work on seed breeding. If John's methodology is the right path, then it would take him down the route he wants to travel, soil health that requires no further inputs. I've listened to all of John's output, have been grateful and complimentary and ignored the sniping. Yet when you compare the respectful way in which he speaks to scientist he choses to interview to the way he speaks to Dr Ingham, including deleted interviews, you have to question, what's his problem.

[@tradcon3096]

I think that I can tell you what his problem is. Dogma. When you work in this field for 20 years with a relatively open mind and you are heavily results oriented you will get to a point where you realize dogmas are the enemy. When you consult farm after farm where a dogmatic approach has been valued higher than actual results you will develop a certain impatience with approaches that adopt certain ideological limitations. Sometimes you could be forgiven for concluding that the limitations themselves have become a goal rather than a means. I was fortunate enough to have been able to follow his career from the beginning and have really appreciated his willingness to continually revisit his own assumptions. When he adopted the sap analysis technology he almost immediately acknowledged that some of his products were ineffective in particular situations and revamped his program very rapidly and openly. Definitely earned my respect. He certainly is not the be all end all, and I would love to have a better window into his successes and failures. I hope this helps.

[@audreybarnes6527]

Thank you for the insight. Appreciated. His achievements todate are really remarkable, he has a rare gift. Perhaps speaking to one another about their experiences as pioneers in their respective fields would clear the air. It's interesting how each reflects on their fathers influence.

[@chadstallings5558]

👍👍

[@stanleychavez5790]

I'm so glad that dr. Elaine went through with the research on fungi 😂

[@trevorquick579]

Trevor Quick, Australia

[@kevinkelleher7868]

Sound only in one side of headphones

[@bao927]

👍

[@DF-ll8vo]

Why are there random large an button mushrooms growing threwout my desert garden in winter .

[@adamhartman3846]

You know the California recently formed biochar lost coast biochar and kilns and always curious on the biodiversity of regenerative farming for carbon markets in mycillium carbon sinks for sequester carbon biochar now with Tom Mills of us biocharge initiative and Josiah hunt Pacific bar chart there is much ground work been done over the last 10 years and into the future now what would we do for today in the carbon market as a society bringing regenerative farming practices in the farm bill agricultural bonds an actual practice of way of living putting the carbon back into the Earth at the rate we need to have it to stabilize the environment. Many blessings Elaine Ingham Elaine Ingram and everyone in about carbon market movement action mitigation climate change

[@KellyKorf]

Kelly yuma colo

[@ssippiman]

She threw out 3.5 billion years with confidence 😂 come on yall. I love it, but let’s keep with what we know for a fact.

[@Robert-dh3xg]

Wisconsin rob

[@romeupb5110]

I like the dog in the background, but with this i leave a hint as well, for someone maybe interested: the whippets dont bark :

[@mikebunetta7420]

Organic agronomist

[@darynneonthetrail]

Is anyone else starting to feel like letting go of the word "resistant" these days? Maybe read John's statement under the plant health pyramid more along the lines of "Healthy plants can become so healthy that diseases and insects just disappear from their experience."

[@ciar3482]

Yeah i definitely don't agree with adding ANY quantity of inorganic salts. Sorry but I only want to be consuming organic carbon based minerals in my food. I feel like a lot of people struggle to properly understand Elaine on this point. Sure the plants might respond but do we really want to play Nature and spend all this money and time on complex samplinG?

[@pyramidion5911]

I believe the goal is to minerally balance the soil and then reduce inputs to the point you dont need them anymore

[@Samthemancharles]

Its like Ian said, soil that is 'balanced' will invite these microbes, like in Permaculture when you create the environment 'extinct' plants pop back up. John's approach is to get your land/soil in the best shape possible to support healthy crops, this has to be economically viable and his movement into sap just gives immediate feedback so one can supplement with a foliar feed as needed. Tell me where Elaine ever quantifies her methods with measurements? I really like Elaine but as she says herself, biology is one third of the equation. And the plants convert everything into organic carbon based minerals.