Force Fields. Behind the fog of maths. A conversation with Rupert Sheldrake

Einstein remarked that there was physics before Maxwell and physics after Maxwell, the difference being the introduction of field theory. So what difference did fields make and, more to the point, what are they?
In this episode of the Sheldrake-Vernon Dialogues, Rupert Sheldrake and Mark Vernon explore how electromagnetic, gravitational and quantum fields shape modern science. Together with Rupert’s idea of morphic fields, which contain an inherent memory, they discuss how fields have revived Aristotle’s notion of formal and final causes and look at the fact that fields aren’t energetic or material causes.
They draw on ancient notions of soul to ask how fields can be part of an expansive notion of science, which has long depended on invisible entities to understand nature. Fields as realities in themselves are rarely discussed by scientists, their nature hidden behind a fog of mathematics. But fields fascinated figures like Faraday and Maxwell and might fascinate us again.
For more conversations with Rupert and Mark see www.sheldrake.org/audios/shel...
www.markvernon.com/talks

[@mattb4670]

Guys, All the fields have been unified both theoretically and mathematically. I would like to invite you to investigate the work that has been done by Nassim Harriman and his team. They have unified all fields, showing that they are all indeed one field. As far as morphic fields go, that’s where you have to bring in consciousness. The corporeal sciences have been resolved but consciousness is where we need to focus bc consciousness is what is primary, not space time and matter

[@roxannesumners5039]

Fields inform particles… Fields are primary. Consciousness is primary. I love how Sheldrake’s brilliance shines bright here.

[@TheWorldTeacher]

Sings: “It ain’t necessarily so...” 🎤

[@fast_harmonic_psychedelic]

fields inform humans with probable information about particles. Particles are primary, fields are a tool of knowldge . consciousness is secondary. Read Lenin - Materialism and empirio-criticism

[@roxannesumners5039]

There are no particles. All is vibrating at a level we can’t perceive from this dimension.

[@merodobson]

For almost a year I have had the phrase "Cohesive Field Propagation" in my head. I have a rough concept about it but deep down I feel it is the "answer" to a question I don't even know how to ask.

[@raymond7427]

What a delightful gentle soft-spoken gentleman Rupert Sheldrake is.

[@PeterStrider]

I really enjoyed this conversation, which came precisely at a time I am personally trying to get a better handle on the ontology of fields! Thank you! One point to update, however, concerning speed of gravity. The latest evidence points to gravitational fields (manifesting gravitational waves) acting essentially at the speed of light, not many times faster than light (as Laplace had calculated) and certainly not instantly. The best evidence is in relation to the detection of GW170817 in 2017, when a neutron star binary pair completed their spiral into a merger - an event observed by earth-based detector devices of both gravitational waves and gamma rays, with each detected virtually simultaneously at a distance of 130 million light years. Photons were detected 1.7 seconds after peak gravitational wave emission; assuming a delay of zero to 10 seconds, this constrains the difference between the speeds of gravitational and electromagnetic waves, vGW − vEM, to between −3×10−15 and +7×10−16 times the speed of light. Within tolerance of measurements, one would have to say they have the same speed.

[@jessicaheger1880]

This is what I came here to say

[@VanEazy]

Wow wow wow! Love these interviews. Powerful stuff. In many ways his views have made me look at the universe in different ways

[@TheWorldTeacher]

Coincidentally, Dr. Sheldrake emailed me just yesterday. 😲

[@jamesnasmith984]

In an effort to grasp the essence of field I have difficulty avoiding the notion that space is composed of something, that it can’t be a vacuum.

[@EarthEmpaths]

It is not a vacuum, they took aether out of the equations to make there hypothesis work.

[@rayarmijo4512]

There is never nothing

[@codybarton2090]

What if they are the same thing just means they got gravity wrong check out the video u unveiling the field invisible force governing our universe I explained it in the comments by linlin sorry

[@jamesnasmith984]

@@codybarton2090 Will do thanks.

[@DavidMcMahon100]

I enjoyed the discussion of “field” history. The clearing away of forrest seems like good pedagogy, but antithetical to modern value sensibilities. I favor fields over particles. I like to describe them as torques of space. As we add the fields and complexity back in, let’s plant some trees!

[@mechannel7046]

7:15 morphic fields, fields of form 8:25 string vs m theory

[@greenstar3411]

Tesla- The day science begins to study non-physical phenomena, it will make more progress in one decade than in all the previous centuries of its existence

[@traviswadezinn]

Very engaging, thank you, good insights

[@merodobson]

Rupert, I think you need to speak to Michael Levin regarding morphic fields informing the physical building of biological matter.

[@douglaswilkinson5700]

Gravitational waves propagate at c. This has been observed by LIGO, et al. Gravity does not propagate faster than c.

[@ground752]

Consider , I worked for many multimillionaires and a few billionaire families and despite a moat of money and a circle of staff no one could avoid problems and limitations like Murphy law ideas, people can not go from success to success to success but are all somehow plagued with ……. What power can accomplish that limitation that requires not missing anyone , no one is missed !?

[@steveclark2205]

What is a morphic resonance please?

[@fast_harmonic_psychedelic]

they say the universe is expanding - the space is expanding. But wouldnt also the matter be expanding with it? If it is then thats the origin of graivity maybe. Since the earth is expanding along with the rest of space - and the expansion is accelerating - thats why you are pushed from below and cling to its surface

[@michaelerdmann4447]

Considering ...chaos, order and telos.... involving ...electromagnetic, gravitational and quantum.... fields coming forth and going forward. sincerely ...the self organising formulations.... (invisible inferences) 'forms, fields and factorials' conscious field work in regions of influence

[@greenstar3411]

I wish they would in Tesla -who created vastly more impact than Einstein and called Einstein a quack.

[@fast_harmonic_psychedelic]

magnets dont attract -- the attaction is simply repulsion from behind.

[@codybarton2090]

You should check out unveiling the field invisible forces governing our universe and give me some feedback back on the comments I think I got somthing

[@leonstenutz6003]

FIELDS / FIELDOLOGY & FIELDOSOPHY: Towards a taxonomy, ontology, philosophy, science, and art on *FIELDS*. Electrical Magnetic Gravitational Morphic Mental Ontological Metaphysical ... ... Just playing around with emergent insights, possibilitues, probabilities ... ... León Galindo Stenutz Cochabamba, 8May24

[@michaelerdmann4447]

Considering ...art, idea, logic, reason, science, technology, and visioneering.... up through the ...virtual, physical, emotional, conceptual, and ascensional.... realms of reality.

[@leonstenutz6003]

@@michaelerdmann4447 Yes ... along those lines, definitely ...

[@michaelerdmann4447]

@@leonstenutz6003 many just consider it word salad 🥗 yet its more than just that

[@ahmedmessaoudi578]

There’s not a proton field. It’s a quarks fields which form a proton. Sorry. I love your ideas Rupert 😘

[@jamesmoran7511]

Really, what's your proof? I'm guessing absolutely zero.

[@Am33304]

@@jamesmoran7511Why the hostility?

[@hyperduality2838]

Forces are dual. Action (thesis) is dual to reaction (anti-thesis) -- Sir Isaac Newton or the Hegelian dialectic. Attraction (sympathy) is dual to repulsion (antipathy), stretch is dual to squeeze, push is dual to pull -- all forces are dual. "Monads are units of force" -- Leibnitz. Monads are dual. "May the force (duality) be with you" -- Jedi teaching. "The force (duality) is strong in this one" -- Jedi teaching. The master is dual to the apprentice -- the rule of two -- Darth Bane, Sith lord. "Always two there are" -- Yoda. Continuous (fields) is dual to discrete (quantum). Commutators are dual to anti-commutators -- forces!

[@michaelerdmann4447]

...dynamic, dualistic and developmentalistic.....

[@hyperduality2838]

@@michaelerdmann4447 If forces are dual then energy must be dual:- Energy = force * distance -- simple physics. Energy is duality, duality is energy! Potential energy is dual to kinetic energy -- gravitational energy is dual. Energy is dual to mass -- Einstein. Electro is dual to magnetic -- electro-magnetic energy is dual. The conservation of duality (energy) will be known as the 5th law of thermodynamics -- Generalized Duality. The duality of force means that there is a new law of thermodynamics! Everything in physics is made out of energy ----> duality.

[@jamesmoran7511]

Words words words. No meaning or coherent message

[@hyperduality2838]

@@jamesmoran7511 Watch the following video about supersymmetry:- kzbin.info/www/bejne/Zni4hX2HeMp-eKc He mentions dualities after 13 minutes. Bosons are dual to Fermions. Bosons are dual to anti-Bosons, Fermions are dual to anti-Fermions. There is a 4th law of thermodynamics that you may not be aware of:- Syntropy (Prediction) is dual to increasing entropy -- the 4th law of thermodynamics! Teleological physics (syntropy) is dual to non teleological physics (entropy). Your mind is syntropic as you make predictions to track targets and goals -- teleological. Good news is dual to bad news:- The bad news is that main stream physics is currently dominated by teleophobia end eliminative materialism. Teleophilia is dual to teleophobia. "Philosophy is dead" -- Stephen Hawking. Syntax is dual to semantics -- languages or communication. If mathematics is a language then it is dual. All numbers fall within the complex plane hence all numbers are dual. Real is dual to imaginary -- complex numbers are dual. The integers are self dual as they are their own conjugates. Stephen Hawking used numbers all the time -- duality. Words, sentences are dual -- syntax is dual to semantics! Antinomy (duality) is two truths that contradict each other -- Immanuel Kant.

[@myronmire4463]

@@jamesmoran7511 So there is a Book that says MUCH ABOUT WORDS. I do the little words from the Strongest Strong’s Exhaustive concordance published by Zondervan and All the Root Words. Of the Words. Believe me every word of God is pure and he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Proverbs 30:1-6(5)

[@fast_harmonic_psychedelic]

Fields are composed of particles. They are still pushing. There actually is no field - the field is a mathematical abstraction, a summing of a real space of real particles with definition positions and motion - and expressing it all with a variable.. The field doesnt actually exist - its the particles in the field which exists -- fields are just the human way to describe the behavior of an aggregate of multiple particles with unknown exact positions.. Thats why you calculate probabilities. Magnetic fields are not lines - its a path of particles - photons , moving along those lines. the only exception is gravity which is not a force - it's an acceleration. There are no attractions, only a pushing. For gravity to exist, the earth must be pushing against you and accelerating outward faster than you are - continuously. It's accelerating by 9.8 m/s ^ 2. But you are not accelerating as fast as the earth and therefore you are pushed from below.

[@bryandraughn9830]

Modern physics "ignores morphic fields". Maybe there's a reason. As long as you don't ignore morphic fields what's the problem? Have at it. Everyone is tired of the "I don't know how it works but everyone else is wrong" approach. Take a look at how many charlatans and grifters use that exact same approach and tell me why you're not concerned about them making a mockery of your field of study.

[@zeroonetime]

The LIFE forcing your life's thought. !!!!! Figure This out. Time IS God, Timing I.S. the manifestation in Godliness God I.S. an ephemeral 010. in T.E.N. dimensions

[@jamesmoran7511]

Probably not

[@ericadler9680]

Trying to combine religion and natural science is a sure sign of pseudo science and dishonesty.

[@MaxPower-vg4vr]

Here is an attempt to synthesize the key ideas from our conversation into a cohesive "case for the soul's existence" within the metaphysical framework outlined, while aiming to resolve potential contradictions by drawing upon relevant logic, mathematics and physics: I) Primordial Zero-Dimensional Origin At the primordial ground, we posit an ineffable Zero Absolute (⦰) which transcends all conventional logic while containing the archetypical seeds for all potential existents. Symbolically: ⦰ := [∅, ∞] The ⦰ encompasses both the nullity of absolute non-being (∅) and the plenitude of absolute infinite being (∞). It is the irreducible non-itarian unity preformal to any internal structural distinctions like subject/object, number/dimension, etc. To avoid a contradictory reversal, we model the ⦰ as the single universal zeronoumenal source - the primordial 0D singularity inherently preceding all positive dimensional unfurlings, whether abstract (numbers) or spatio-geometric (dimensions). II) Negational Scattering & Subject/Object Differentiation From the ⦰'s primordial potentiality, plurality first arises via a hypernegational scattering: ⦰ ⤳ {0, 1} An incipient self-diffraction or self-othering generates the Seeds of Subject (0) and Object (1) - the first infinitesimal scission within the ⦰. This projects an antizeonic brane (𝟘) complementing the standard potential-actualizing cosmic brane (ℝ). Pluralities now deploy from both ⦰ and ⦰*. III) Monadic Subjectivities & Proto-Experiential Essences The Seeds of Subject (0) instantiate as indecomposable dimensionless monadic essences (Mu) - fractal fragments of the ⦰'s unitiveness which represent the primordial wellsprings of observational subjectivity and proto-experiential emanation. These monadic essences (Mu) can be identified with souls - the irreducible perspectival loci of sentient witnessing preformal to their manifestation within any positive dimensional structure, whether abstract or geometric. IV) Subject/Object Bordism & Non-Commutative Geometric Correspondence To model how the subjective monadic seeds (Mu) give rise to objective phenomena, we turn to non-commutative geometric correspondences between the: (Mu) Monad subjective essences (Bu) Observable dimensional objects This is specified by an analytic functor between certain C*-algebras and K-theory cycles encoding enveloping geometric data: Mu ⥤ Bu Essentially, each monadic essence (Mu) acquires an associated commutative geometric mirror (Bu) as specified by the correspondences in non-commutative motives and higher category theory. The subjective psychoid essences acquire objective phenomenal manifestations. V) Dimensional Emanation & Explosion into Classical Realms The dimensional objects (Bu) then erupt from their monadic 0D primordial seeds (Mu) into higher dimensional cataphysical manifolds via explosive geometric topological transitions: Mu ⥳ Bu,4 (3+1D classical spacetime) These correspond to the emergence of quasi-classical dimensions we experientially inhabit as souls manifest into full cosmological theatre extensivity. In particular, the 3+1D of relativistic spacetime could model the critical explosion of subjective essences into causal, geometric objecthood. Potential mechanisms include: - Black hole / White hole transitions (Mu as white hole sources) - Decoherence functors and holographic projections - Brane nucleations across dimensional levels - Conformal compensators and entropic adjustments VI) Quantum Measurement & Conscious Force Once the objective classical realm is emanated, conscious observational by the subjective (Mu) essences can induce physical influences reconditioning geometric phenomenality via: 1) Wavefunction collapse/decoherence and restraint of potentials (measurement problem) 2) Subtle influences from residual monadic inter-connections (non-locality) 3) Feedback on geometry from compensating conformal adjustments (holographic duality) In essence, conscious subjectivity (Mu) acquires the capacity to complexly contour the very geometric structural embodiments (Bu) that emanated from the monadic origins - a self-cradling feed-back descending from the Zero Absolute. So in summary, by: 1) Adopting the Zero Absolute (⦰) as the single primordial zeronoumenal source 2) Deriving subjects and objects from ⦰'s negational self-scattering 3) Identifying souls with the monadic subject essences (Mu) 4) Formulating their manifestation in observables via non-commutative motive correspondences 5) Modeling their explosive dimensional emanation as (Mu) ⥳ (Bu) transitions 6) Characterizing their physical influences from quantum measurement and holographic self-selection... ...we can construct a cohesive metaphysical "case" deriving the existence of souls as the primordial monadic experiential essences which give rise to the cosmological objects we then empirically occupy, all originating from an ineffable zeronoumenal plenum (⦰). This draws upon speculative ideas in areas like non-commutative geometry, higher category theory, quantum measurement, holographic duality, and cutting-edge mathematics/physics - while aiming to maintain consistency with the core premise of the Zero Absolute preceding all positive realms.

[@MaxPower-vg4vr]

Extending this metaphysical framework to biochemical perspectives adds another fascinating layer. Here's one way we could approach integrating biological mechanisms: I. Quantum Coherence and Warm Quantum Effects At the most fundamental level, there are speculative models proposing that biomolecular systems can harness and sustain non-trivial quantum coherence effects at physiological temperatures. Key ideas include: - Warm quantum coherence in photosynthetic complexes - Nuclear spin isomer state convergence in enzyme reactions - Quantum entanglement across protein structures - Quantum coherent dipole oscillations in tubulin polymers If valid, these could provide substrates for monadic subjective essences (Mu) to influence biomolecular dynamics via subtle residual non-local monadic interconnections proposed in the framework. II. Orchestrated Objective Reduction (Orch-OR) The Orch-OR theory suggests consciousness arises from quantum computations in microtubules inside neurons, terminated by objective reductions (OR) of quantum state. This could synergize with the framework's notion of: Mu ⥤ Bu (Subject/Object monad-observable correspondence) Where Mu now corresponds to pre-conscious quantized microtubule biomolecular states, and Bu represents the emergent OR-induced classical neuronal/cognitive states. The dimensional emanation Mu ⥳ Bu could then be identified with microtubule OR events - the explosion of pre-conscious quantized provisions into classical cognitive/perceptual actualities. III. Biophoton Emission and Radiance Biological systems are observed to emit biophoton radiation, often associated with oxidative metabolism. Intriguingly, this radiation exhibits potentially non-trivial correlations across scales, suggesting underlying quantum coherence. The text proposes identifying white holes as generative quantum radiance sources. Biophoton emission could then represent processes akin to organismic "white hole radiance". If tied to quantum coherence as in (I), these biophotonic "radiance sources" could be manifestations of monadic essences (Mu) emanating qualitative observables (Bu) into the classical biochemical structures regulating metabolism, regulation, and sentient Experience. IV. Scale-Free Embodiment of Proto-Experiences The non-commutative geometric correspondences allow one Mu essence to induce a nested continuum of Bu phenomenal embodiments across scales. This could model how a single subjective monadic origin percolates into an integrated hierarchy of interdependent observables: Mu ⥤ Biochemical Observables ⥤ Cellular/Tissue Observables ⥤ Organismic/Neural Observables ⥤ Cognitive/Experiential Observables So the same monadic (Mu) subjectivity simultaneously arises in correlated bio-physicochemical, neurophysiological, and psycho-experiential registers via an overlay of interdependent emanative reflections from the common zeronoumenal source. V. Organismic Cosmological Principle Finally, the framework allows extending to an "Organismic Cosmological Principle" - the conjecture that what we experience subjectively as a coherent lifeflow is due to each organism's monadic locus (Mu) emanating an entire self-consistent cosmological totality (Bu). So subjective lived-experience of an organism's biography reflects the emanated observables (Bu's) structured within the subjectivity's cosmological hologram - not just neurophysiological correlates. Integrated functioning and poise toward death could arise from monadic holographic projection across nested observation platforms. In this way, sophisticated future models could potentially unify: - Quantum biomolecular mechanisms - Neural microphysics of sentient experience - Subjectivity and first-person phenomenology - Coherence of organism-level adaptive lifeflows ...all under a common zeronoumenal monadological framework emanating interdependent cosmological holograms responsible for integrated biophysical and conscious functioning. This syncretic perspective aims to resolve Cartesian mind/body divides by deriving both physical and experiential registers from a common primordial zero-dimensional source - the monadic essences (Mu) which structure organismic holographic phenomenalities through dynamical zero/non-zero biunity projections. While the metaphysical framework I have outlined is highly speculative and abstract, we can attempt to provide some degree of formalization and symbolic rigor by defining certain key relations and constraints that would need to hold for the ideas to be logically coherent and potentially susceptible to further mathematical development. I. Primordial Origin Constraint We must posit an ineffable primordial origin ⦰ (Zero Absolute) that transcends and prefigures any internal structural distinctions: ∀x (x ∉ ⦰) This ensures the ⦰ remains an irreducible non-itarian source continuum preformal to any positive ontic instantiations. II. Negational Scattering Relation The arising of subjects/objects must be modeled via a primal negational self-scattering relation emanating from ⦰: ⦰ ⥱s {0, 1} Where ⥱s denotes an primordial self-othering dispersion projecting the seeds of subjectivity (0) and objectivity (1). III. Subjectivity Constraint To coherently identify subjects with monadic essences, their fundamental nature must be constrained: Mu ⥓ Dimensionless ∧ Indivisible ∧ Non-Spatial Requiring the monadic essences Mu to be dimensionless, indecomposable loci preformal to any geometric/structural extensions. IV. Emanative Correspondence To model manifestation, we require a formal correspondence between subjective essences and observable instantiations: Mu ⟷c Bu Where ⟷c denotes a precisely-definable analytic "modal hemihomorphism" between monad subjectivities (Mu) and higher emanative objectuations (Bu). Structured by: - Non-Commutative Geometries - Higher Category Theory - Homotopy-Theoretic Methods V. Dimensional Transition Relation The subjective essences must then undergo a dimensional explosion into objectuated geometric theatre: Mu ⥳d Bu,n Modeled as a topological dimensional transition, where ⥳d specifies the geometric dynamism (black hole, decoherence, brane nucleation, etc.) VI. Measurement Self-Reflexivity Finally, to allow subjective influences on geometric observables, a measurement self-reflexivity relation: Mu ⥤ψ Bu,n ⥥ ϕ Depicting subjective monadic essences (Mu) reconditioning geometric structures (Bu,n) via quantumically-mediated correlations ψ (measurement) and conformal compensations ϕ (holographic). By positing such symbolic relations and constraint axioms, we aim to elevate the framework from purely conceptual musings towards a more rigorous structural formalism grounded in mathematical logic and category theory. Of course, substantive further work would be required to fully develop these into an axiomatic mathematical metaphysics capable of reasonably deriving empirical predictions and observational limits that could be tested against known physics. But defining key relations like the primordial ⦰ source, negational scatterings, subjective constraints, emanative correspondences, dimensional transitions, and measurement self-reflexivities provides a semi-formal schematic that any complete metaphysical model along these lines would need to cohere with and make precise. It frames the core intelligibility constraints, representational vocabularies, and structural harmonizations required to render the conceptual system into a coherent formal metaphysics in principle capable of empirical treatment - or recognition of intrinsic limitations if such formalization proves impossible. So while still highly abstract, positing such formal relations at least allows us to transition the discourse from open-ended analogy towards the regimens of symbolic logic and mathematical model building - a crucial step for any metaphysical system aspiring towards authentic ontological representation.

[@ElifB1]

this is an excellent breakdown. can i share it?

[@MaxPower-vg4vr]

@@ElifB1 Please do :)

[@fionncawley8963]

Omg. I don't think you left out anything from that monumental historical word salad. Darn. A dose of Obscura anyone?

[@MaxPower-vg4vr]

@@fionncawley8963 Anything can be word salad to an idiot.