Player Agency in World of Warcraft

[@Viertis]

Here is the thing with player agency in an MMORPG, if you give players choices like you have in Mass Effect for example, or Fallout Series, then you are going to have a group of players whos choices means absolutely nothing because Blizzard will have to force narrative to go in the way they want. This actually applies to every one of your examples, and would only work in Scenarios which can be redone time and again and actually mean nothing in the game overall. While I would enjoy this quite a bit, as I love the story, I understand that this cannot happen in an MMORPG due to the player base. The only way this would work, and due to the nature of the internet and trolling it would never happen, is to allow the system to figure out which option was chosen the most and that is what becomes canon in their story to the future. Welcome back btw Tuskeh! Glad to have you.

[@Tuskeh]

Thanks!

[@mikfhan]

Indeed; if one group makes decision A, from then on they cannot inhabit a world that reflects the outcome of players making decision B instead. Furthermore, story cannot involve the player group as "the chosen one" since many other groups before them have made decision A already. So yes, the illusion of macro/micro narrative player agency only. This could still be improved in small ways, like you say, by letting the player express their character's lack of agency when their intention goes against how story is progressing. But apart from these small illusive tricks and lots of phasing/instancing/timetravel, I fear persistent multiplayer games will never have lasting and meaningful narrative player agency.

[@Noldy1989]

Damn, you really brought your editing to a whole new level! Nice :D

[@Tuskeh]

Thank you!

[@honeyfairyweasel]

I remember this moment while I was leveling a Horde Pandaren character and in a dialogue window from Ji Firepaw, he says that he could hug the player because he was so happy with them. On a whim, I targeted him and typed /hug at him, and I was amazed and shocked when I saw in the chat log "Ji returns the hug warmly." I don't know how many other small events like that are possible in WoW, but more moments like that would definitely make me feel like my character is really interacting with NPCs

[@TwoBaze]

you have no idea, how happy i am, to see you back on the content train! I started playing wow again in WoD and my Boost was a shaman troll because you influenced me this time that much with your videos. You where that person, that i usually put on playlist, if i had a rough night with my depression and didn't found any sleep for days. Your calm voice and the interesting theme just kept my mind away from all those bad thoughts. thanks alot for this!

[@Hambonee123]

Glad to see you back. Defiantly missed your videos. Looking forward to more. Best of luck.

[@RLC58]

that intro brings a tear to my eye. please keep making videos

[@lgcaptain7798]

I know you mostly play trolls be this is why I liked the first quest in Westfall where you either question the homeless people or offer them a copper to get them to give you clues to solve a murder. It is such a small thing but it made the questline in Westfall so much more fun!

[@Tuskeh]

That's awesome! I'd love to see more of that :)

[@miroslavasparuhov2570]

Glad to have you back Tuskeh! This specific topic is one I really wanted someone to bring up and explore in depth. Player agency in the story has always been something I've desperately wanted. Thank you for talking about it! We desperately need a way to influence the story and finally be a part of it, and not just act on the sidelines. While I doubt WoW would ever be on the same level of agency as say Guild Wars 2 gave to the player, it can still add options that simply increase the replayability of the game.

[@jare3959]

The editing of the "splitting it up" section was immaculate.

[@tastychicken5824]

Missed your vids man.

[@shadowselyf]

I was thinking about this during the last half of the video and with your challenge at the end I think I should mention it, though others may have as well. In the Demon Hunter starting zone, while invading a demon world you have the option to sacrifice one of the DHs you are leading or sacrificing yourself. The former doesn't remove that NPC from the game but makes it a ghost that only you can see and interact with. The latter results in Illidan telling you that you have achieved something akin to himself, your soul goes to the Twisting Nether if you don't get back to your body fast enough. Fun twist on the player character death we have known since vanilla. Mechanically the choices are pointless as the result is the same either way. But for character agency its very engaging and lets you explore what kind of leader you want to be, one of the big themes of Legion.

[@gorthaur3800]

Good example of player agency is interaction with Revil Kost, where you have several dialogue options with diffrent outcomes.

[@MichaelDahlkvist]

This will be bias towards my love of healing and druids in general. But take the first couple of quests you do in azsuna clearing demons and helping the Illidari. The first quests are basicly go kill demons. What if the quest was "help out in any way you can" and there would be an option to heal/resurrect others. Carrying wounded back to camp etc. I feel that the biggest mistake that they make is they dont care about who i am, yes i am the hero but iam i the Tank who protects my allies or the dangerous (insert dps spec here) or do i help defeat the legion as a healer. THAT would be the best way in my view to get to really immerse myself with who i am in game. Thats why i loved the Artifact quests most of all this expac. Being a Druid healer seeking out the G´Hanir staff and in the same quest help banish a Demon was awesome.

[@Tuskeh]

I love this idea, through and through. Guild Wars 2 often does this very well, and some of WoW's more open quests (especially world quests) could do this. A great point expertly made!

[@DonWinther]

I believe there is a world quest in Stormheim, where the player has honor a fallen jarl. The player can interact with the other Vrykul guests by either throwing food at them and start a fight, or raise a mug in honor. Thought it was brilliant, and I always complete that quest whenever its available.

[@LJdaOG]

That bit about a tauren druid gleefully flinging about blight barrels like a war criminal reminds me of something I had put out of mind: So, I was playing a blood elf warlock. While I'm hardly an RP server player, I put off touching Val'sharah out of natural distaste. When I actually got there, my felguard immediately blew my willing suspension of disbelief to pieces by piping up, demanding to know why I was wasting time wandering through a forest. While my floating skull buddy was a bit more forthcoming with a potential motivation (potentially harnessing the Nightmare), the spell was broken, and I never once stopped asking why I didn't just murder the MULTIPLE ENEMY LEADERS WHO WE ARE AT WAR WITH on the spot while they were most helpless. The entire quest was basically just a HELP THE NIGHT ELVES BECAUSE YOU ARE SUCH GOOD FRIENDS mission, and not a peep from my hippie-hating, power-loving mana-addict.

[@Tuskeh]

Another great example!

[@Grohoful]

SOO true brotha!! True class identity would fall more in line with your suggestion. "Burn this F&$%in place to ground for all I care. There's no allies available for us here."

[@jimjones3126]

Glad to have you back, sir.

[@Its_Revan]

Wait you are making videos again???? PogChamp boys!

[@henrywesterman493]

Heeeeey, the original zappyboi is back! Woo! Mate, you are at least 33% of the reason I’m my guild’s tryhard who is now 30/36 on Mage Tower challenges and coming up with guild strats for raid kills. Glad to have you back! :)

[@Fatty1090]

Someone might have already said this one, but I'm lazy and not going to read all the comments to check. The Horde quest in Hillsbrad Foothills where you have a choice to free the Humans buried in the ground or knock them down in further... I like that one and depending on what class I'm playing I have done it in the way I think my character would of.

[@MrMcCredible]

Regarding the six-trigger brothers: You can actually find the corpses of their Tauren victims under the tree behind the house. Aside from how morbid that whole scenario is, it made the whole thing even harder to digest because my character accidentally stumbled on the truth from the start. It would've made sense to apply a hidden 'quest' of some sort to those corpses, so that when you interacted with them you bypassed the brothers' quests and went straight to killing them there and then.

[@jimothyftw]

An interesting and informative video about something I'd not considered before, but now surely will. also 7:42 i appriciate those folder names

[@chefRyan38]

I agree, loved that little hozen argument lol. Maybe occasionally give you the option to be rude or nice affecting affecting the 1 liner that npc will give you from that point on

[@Sarth1s]

Player agency could also be addressed with divergent questing design that still end in the same outcome for story purposes. Let's take the Stormheim attack on Horde side for an example. Now, when Nathanos tells you to fling the thing you could have the option to say "Sure thing boss!" or "Hell to the naw!" and if you fling the thing, then you fling the thing, but if you choose not to Nathanos could send you off on a mission to do something else such as defend against an attack on the shore, or something like that, and then come and get you once you finish that line and you get brought up onto the airship to help the assault AFTER the other player characters have popped the plague flasks below deck. Just an idea tho ^.^ glad to see you back Tuskeh!

[@Tuskeh]

This is the dream, really - unfortunately, those kinds of quest events are extremely difficult to make (mostly because of the time investment), and with the realities of game development looming, I can't imagine something like this would be possible.

[@twitterman5397]

Glad that you embraced lord Zappyboi’s ways.

[@BeastMode-do8gj]

A quest comes to mind in the barrens, where you have to capture and interrogate a quillboar. And you can choose to tickle the answer out of him or kick him in the face a few times lol. And i think you get a buff saying you are a good or bad person depending on which one you chose.

[@BeastMode-do8gj]

its called: By Hook Or By Crook

[@iLegitimacy]

I know you are back, and you have some time restraints, but I do miss your guides. I've seen other guides that people do, and they just real time it. The guides are helpful, and do what they are supposed to, but when you do a guide, I feels like I am actually getting a lesson on how to play the class, rather than just someone half-assing something with a face cam going over talents. Thanks.

[@skirdus367]

really hope blizz takes a listen to your concerns and ideas. they'd be very beneficial to wow's in-game storytelling!

[@Numpkins]

Welcome back Tuskeh! Missed your vids. Just do you and have fun man.

[@evr9055]

Such high quallity content 10/10.

[@Grohoful]

1) The class campaigns could of used this a ton!! Warlocks for example, choosing the council of six. Death Knights, choosing the four horsemen. You can have a pool of 9 or 10 possibilities. Then, the ones you chose will become your order hall followers for the rest of legion and you forsake the ones you didn't choose. You wouldn't even need to change the quest, just copy paste the NPC you chose into the quest that's already implemented. 2) Going along with what you were kinda talking about, a simple fix, have morality replies. it kinda doesn't fully apply to agency and more so character depth but...My lock, DK, rogue are most likely not going to give the same answer or response that the priest, paladin or shaman give. i.e. - "Smile and give the good news of the success you had while saving the squirrels of the Forrest " -or- "let out an annoyed sigh and let them know that you would have rather exterminated the population but ultimately completed their menial and trivial task." All of which could provoke the NPC to act differently during the quest process.

[@brorican1]

I agree with this, WOW needs to add this into the Lore and progression of my own story arch. For example, this idea of Agency should affect faction. If I am a Tauren Shaman and I was on that ship and given the option to fling Blythe and I did it, which is against my peoples creed, whenever I go to trade with them or quest with them, they should not trade/quest with me and even go so far as to fight/shun me. I would need a do quest line to "regain favor" faction with my own people or if I did not choose to participate, they would give me a special quest line for a hero item (leader of the people), but that same action would make me look like a rebel to some of the higher ranking Horde Officers for not following instructions.

[@Metsa25]

I realize that this comment is coming months too late, but I wanted to toss in my two cents. On my first trip through Kalimdor I ran into a quest where I wish I had been able to make a choice. The blood for oil quests in Thousand Needles really had me confused. The last game I had played was Fable where the choices players made had a huge effect on your toon if not the world. When I got to Thousand Needles and was given this quest I thought I was being tested. I was Alliance. We don't do this sort of thing. It's not like we were Blood Elves, or Orcs, or one of those filthy filthy Trolls (teeheehee!) I asked in chat if I was supposed to do this or if it was wrong. The response I got was "You don't play a lot of these games, do you!" It would have been nice to have the option of drop kicking that gnome into the drink and just moving on. BTW glad to have you back.

[@sarac7348]

Glad you are back!

[@eazyduzit419]

Loved your last video and this one. I gotta get to watching your other one's!

[@Gottnoc]

Your editing is so deft it's mouth-watering~~

[@psychosmurfer]

Another great Video from one of the best WoW Content creators. It would be good id there were more options presented to the player. Can only hope it is implemented in the future. Keep up the awesome work :)

[@GenericNameeee]

Would like to see some sort of this, but they need to keep it instanced where only you and maybe a group could make those choices. Why i think this won't work outdoors is because of the other millions of players playing the game, if they wanted to do this they would need to do it as they did with the Armies of Legionfall building thing and make a sort of progress bar keeping track on the choices of players and then proceed to choose the one which has the most backing. It could either work very well or just fuck the narrative up completely because of trolls and petitions outside the game! Would like to see the things you added on the end though about you yourself getting just abit of extra lore moments or just a scenario which does not impact the grander scale! That looks so good! Very good and productive video, Like!

[@Sneedkea]

I missed your vids, what treat after my long day :D

[@GenerallyMorgan]

Keep at it, I can't wait for the next one. You're rocking it :)

[@samb.6579]

8:04 Blizzard confirmed during the expansion announcement that leveling would work the same way it did in legion :)

[@brewerybrian]

Really well put, Star wars the Old Republic has a lot of player agency but i still don't play it even a 10th of the time that i play wow. Wow is such a really well designed game but Adding this little bit of extra content would make it leaps and bounds better than anything out there. One extra idea could be earning Rep with different groups depending on the choices you make, adding to extra play ability to earn different rewards or see different ending. They can take this and really do a lot with it. I compare Blizzard to Disney, they put a lot of time and detail into making a great experience and this would be the icing on the cake. You should find a way to get the designers to hear your idea.

[@camsmyth101]

Just wanna say love the new content

[@8bittyRae]

18:30 Ummmmm Galywix also doesn't shout for the horde.

[@Tuskeh]

Fair point, I missed that one!

[@oinkleberry]

I remember Halfhill and how we had reputations with individual NPCs there, and I was hoping it would lead to WoW having some sort of more in-depth RPG mechanics where you don't necessarily drive major plot points but you're able to leave noticeable impressions upon the characters within the story unique to your interactions with them. But they just sort of dropped it. Unfortunate, I'd have liked to say, marry an NPC who I get ridiculously high reputation with. Something minor and cheesy like that, but very core to a classic RPG experience.

[@GogHeal]

So much love Tuskeh the videos are great!

[@Goodbashop]

The best example of a MMORPG with a LOT of player agency is SWTOR. It is worth playing only for leveling, which is a great achievement for an MMO too bad it didnt have the endgame of WoW level at least last time I played it.

[@johnhandyside1252]

This is a fantastic video I hope Blizzard sees it!!

[@knoxnihal9952]

Very good and funny videos bring a great sense of entertainment!

[@eyewarsx]

You're back? Cool!

[@sharlin648]

An excellent video that raises many good points and ideas :) :)

[@Vampretta666]

OMFG ur back :D welcome bk mr

[@publicguy1664]

While this is an interesting and accurate point, this reason is why it's an "on rails" or "theme park" MMO, we're just along for the very planned out ride.

[@ConnerPlays]

I feel like Player Agency in MMO's are a hard thing to do, because sooner or later what the devs wanna do will be radically different to what the players want to do. Case in point; my Undead Mage in Wow is technically not a part of the Horde, she doesn't agree with how Sylvanas puts the forsaken above the rest and this is only going to backfire bigger than Garrosh. But other MMO's, even ones that have story centerfirst, have this problem too. SWTOR has wonderfully crafted class stories, but once you start getting into the expansions everything becomes a muddled story. FFXIV has your character as the Best Hero™, but ultimately they're a mute with the personalities of your compatriots shining farther. GW2, again has the Personal Story but the expansions feel more of a one-track show comparatively

[@andershermansen1131]

Welcome back! :)

[@Tiercat]

Holy crap ur back. Nice bro

[@IamtheLexx]

Very interesting topic. I too wish WoW would invest a little more effort in the RPG part of the game. I've been a player for a couple years now but I only recently got invested into the lore (all thanks to Nobbel!). Not at all saying it's Blizzard's fault for my previous lack of interest, but in my opinion the game isn't that good at making you feel invested story-wise. They seem to get a little better at it, but I still feel like there are a thousand little things they could add to the game to make it feel more immersive, to help us identify with our character, our race and faction better. Adding more dialogue options would certainly be a good start since it's easy to implement. Also moar personalisation pls Blizzard!

[@lelev6579]

good video, love your channel!

[@jkbookie1274]

They added a quest that allows you to kill the Sixtrigger brothers.

[@Magge1992]

Nice ideas

[@hvazi8710]

Can someone please tell me the name of the song at 22:13

[@Vampshroom420]

I love Sylvanas. im not a FOR THE ALLIANCE fanboy or FOR THE HORDE fanatic...but i am a god damn Forsaken LOYALIST. If Sylvanas does something for only her and her people,im all for it. Can you blame her? We undead are shunned and disliked even by a majority of the Horde. The Forsaken feel more like its own faction entirely :P I didnt have my "place" in WoW,like players yell either for the alliance or for the horde. i didnt feel any of that towards the factions.... im more FOR THE DARK LADY! I know it sounds completely insane and Blizz would never do such a thing...but man,i wish the Forsaken wernt part of the Horde. i wish we just broke off and do our own thing

[@Tuskeh]

This is awesome! Dedication like this is what makes seeing these characters come to life so satisfying. But this can go both ways - instead of having options that have the player questioning Sylvanas, what about options that have them praising her as well? There are tons of possibilities here!

[@Vampshroom420]

Praise the Dark Lady!

[@Kraidful]

its being a long time mate

[@AndrewPort]

I'm sorry - I am going to have to disagree with you on the fundamentals of your argument, mostly on principal. One of the things that WoW players loved (but never knew they loved) about World of Warcraft in the "good ol'days" was the fact that they had no agency past being the helping hand by which story content was delivered. Onyxia blowing up Stormwind Keep wasn't fun just because of that fact, but because players followed the heroic Stormwind Military Commander from the gates of Stormwind all the way to the Keep, embarking on HIS journey with him. There was nothing inherently astounding about following Reginald Windsor through the city...until you realized that every NPC had a uniquely scripted response to his presence. And then you bore witness to HIM using the tablets to expose Onyxia. And then usually players just died. But the point is simple with this analogy: Players do not want agency in an MMO the same way they want it in a Single-Player RPG. In the latter, they want to be the hero (or villain), pursuing the goals that they wish to fight for, and affect the story of the game. In the former, the player wishes to want to be one of the MANY essential cogs in the machine, one of the important anecdotes that allows a hero (or villain) to shine. They want to be part of something greater than themselves, not the spearhead of it. Isn't that, after all, what a MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER game is about? World of Warcraft player agency began to decay in Cataclysm, hit its worst point in Warlords of Draenor, and shows no signs of recovery henceforth. In these expansions, NPCs began to "recognize" our characters, "hear" about our heroism. Suddenly it wasn't just "an adventurer! ah, collect for me ten boar tusks," but instead, "ah, THE COMMANDER OF MY GARRISON, please let ME collect ten boar tusks FOR YOU." Debates about the Garrison mechanic aside, the idea is rather rudimentary - WoW took The Old Republic's montra of installing a single-player narrative within a MMO too far, and the result was a storyline where you are the hero of the universe (literally, thanks Legion), but so is...everyone else...? But...then you don't get thanked for it? Or do you? Where are you in the cinematics? We would all be better served - and we would all enjoy ourselves more - if we Khaghar had no idea who we were, and we merely assisted him - we, meaning the millions of us who will - in achieving HIS goal of saving the universe. In that case, it's still a stupid sci-fi storyline, but at least we are not the Champions of Azeroth and guardians of the galaxy.

[@Numbers_Game]

The problem is that you're telling an MMORPG game "hey, look at the stuff the single player games are doing". There are certain limitations that game genres have you know. I must also disagree with your statement that the player has no agency. The shovel quest (the name eludes me) where you can either dig up 10 humans and thus save them or bash their heads to end their misery contains the agency of which you speak of. The same can be said for the warlock green fire quest where you can follow Akama through the Black temple or disappear for a moment and steal some treasure. One could also argue that the world quests/objectives that came with WoD (the 0 to 100% ones) also give player agency, because you are choosing to kill x mobs or heal y npc's or collect z items". There is also the leveling path (especially with the 7.3.5. patch) and while it's ancient content by now, you have the Aldor vs Scryer dilemma.

[@gabrielalmqvist444]

Hope blizz see this

[@stormclaw66]

Majority what you are suggesting is false agency. It can lead to more lore oppotunities but if anything it will fustrate people more as your character's choices then don't mean anything rather than your character not having a choice.

[@dapperdoggo4218]

Welcome back to Azeroth!

[@antonkokic]

This is huge problem for me with most modern mmos, especially wow

[@dinokeefe7015]

Hey Tuskeh i would be very happy if you check your messeges on Facebook

[@markmikolay9019]

Taz dingo my dude

[@gammat.c.4916]

That's a good point of view.. But if they add agency. It wouldnt be world of warcraft :3...

[@Z5l9]

You are like the Wooden Potatoes of Wow :D

[@nuggsy7085]

Seriously tho. Death to Sylvanas! =D

[@0ctaviaPony]

I dont like Khadgar at all. .....Yeah.

[@nahsti8043]

938th view :D

[@flash453]

wtf dude sylvanas is the best.. loong live th warchife

[@kemyaali2056]

"lack agency" then leave

[@kaylahstrider744]

Hey! Good vid, but one question. In the beginning, when you explain about breaking up the vids... what is the game on the far left pannel? With the snake character??? PLEASE I MUST KNOW!