Player Choice and Mentality for a Successful Sandbox Game

#OSR #TTRPG #DnD
"When I roll on random tables, my players feel like their choices don't matter."
I have read this in my comment section and in my replies on twitter and other places. I want to dive in and talk about why this concern from players doesn't make sense to me.

[@TheBasicExpert]

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[@charlessmith5465]

I'm getting pretty nervous about those cultists in the chapel. They could be setting up a ritual, which could get grotesque if they're left to their own devices. 🤭 Although that could be a red herring and the ritual is going to occur in a cave. Or maybe there is no ritual and they're sneaking back to raid the keep. _Those unpredictable cultists, they could be up to anything, anywhere, all the time, AAAAAGH!_

[@scrapperlock9437]

I think you are right, that the reason players say that rolling on random tables "robs them of agency" is that they have probably never GMed. All RPG books in the GM section have random tables for things... These players don't understand that even if the GM bought a module that had something already stocked into the room, the writer of the module might have come up with that content by using a random table! And it really doesn't matter if the item was already decided to be in there before the party opened the door, or if the GM rolled it as the door was swinging open. What's there is there now, and it's confronting you because you opened the door. Also, all of these things are just "RP prompts," and I think that players may not see that if they have never had to make up an adventure or a campaign themselves.

[@elgatochurro]

Yeah it's not a video game, I can only prepare so much

[@turner42]

My prep now consists making random encounters. I'll roll up a list of about 12 random encounters and use those as my wandering monster table (I'll usually make a table for each biomez so encounters in a forest are different than a mountain). . Some encounters are good others not good. After every session I'll just refill the ones we went through with new encounters. I'll also make a table of about 8 points of interest that the players have a chance of stumbling across when exploring hexes. So far it's been my most effective prepping tool and the whole thing takes about 1h between sessions

[@TheBasicExpert]

That sounds like a good middle ground and easy prep.

[@BnaaUK]

I've always thought that a sandbox game was the only kind of game that player choice really mastered. The new school narrative style games is on story train tracks. But a sandbox is entirely driven by player choice, the random tables are a fantastic tool to give ideas about what comes next. If the players told you they planned to go to the abandoned keep but got lost on the way there, those tables are amazingly useful for determining what happens next.

[@ARKavli]

I agree that playing solo definitely helps learn how to no / low prep. My takeaway from a recent Ironsworn campaign I ran as DM was that you have to temper that randomness with reason... context is king. I was being too lazy and so some of their actions (and successes) did seem pointless because the aftermath seemed arbitrary.

[@TheBasicExpert]

The trick is to focus your energy as the DM or Ref on making those random rolls fit. You might have to change an aspect to make it work, which is fine in my opinion, but for me that is the fun of this style of game because I don't know what is going to happen next and I get to try and make it all make sense in the game world for myself and the players. It also feels more collaborative with the players as well.

[@hawaiinshirtguy]

Part of the misunderstanding, I think, is that they don't realise that well designed tables enforce the setting. I run Noir/Investigation sandbox games mainly, so I design a city and it's underworld in the broad strokes, and some overall events that are happening in the city, major NPCs etc etc. I then design tables with all the factions, some crimes, rackets etc on them. This lets me generate a ton of interesting content in a fraction of the prep time. It lets me fill in the moment to moment "details", but everything on the tables is downstream of the stuff I designed myself. I roll up some hooks in advance of a session, stick them to a corkboard that represents on in the player characters hideout and they pick from that, or they can just go looking for trouble and I roll on random encounter tables... which again... were prepared in advance. If I were to design each adventure directly I would struggle to keep up, and they would lose the agency to pick what they are, and are not interested in. Not to mention when they dodge investigating something and it comes back to bite them... it makes the world feel more alive. Too many people online get stuck in a false dichotomy of everything either being forced choreography or nothing more than "random roll play".

[@TheBasicExpert]

That's what they don't get. You and I are merely front loading all the prep before session one. After that, there isn't much more work to do once the game is going.

[@hawaiinshirtguy]

That's exactly how I explain it to my players. It does take me a fair bit of time to prep the whole thing in advance, a few weeks maybe. but that's also the time you can use to organise the group etc. Once that prep is done I get a good month or two with barely having to do any prep. and when I do it's just to build on something the players have already done. Even that is finding a map online and populating it.... by rolling on random tables.

[@elgatochurro]

I wanna learn that! How can I learn that noir investigation

[@grumpygrognard7292]

It has a lot to do with the expectations the players bring to the table, if they haven't played in a sandbox style before. If the players have been watching Critical Role or something similar, they may expect to have a specific story presented to them. I think there is a generation of people that see that as the only way to play D&D. There isn't enough representation of other styles of play, but i can understand why. The storytelling style is geared well for live play videos on KZbin, while the sandbox style may present as boring to internet audiences.

[@elgatochurro]

Players in a sandbox need a different mindset to play one. It'll be their choices and decisions that drive a good bit of it. I've seen so many modern random players who do little more than sit down and stay quiet expecting me to do EVERYTHING for them. Give boo input, no backstory, not even a personality for their character, they've no plan for them or anything else and they expect me to somehow sow seeds to get a story to work out for them... Even worse, plenty of these types of players act like they're Gods gift to the hobby, to roleplay, and even other PCs and the players should be focusing on catering to their entertainment and personal plot. It feels more and more that there days off being a group that gets along and chats like actual people in a setting is rarer and rarer... Being replaced with people who are acting like they're the main protagonist in a cooperative game...

[@grumpygrognard7292]

@@elgatochurro It could be a generational thing. If they have played a lot of computer and console RPGs before doing table-top they may expect something like that.

[@ostravaofboletaria1027]

I never made a sandbox or hexcrawl game before, and my players now want a pirate sandbox sailing past islands and into the wider sea. I can use all the guidance I can get from your vids 😅

[@TheBasicExpert]

If they are willing to be proactive players in your pirate sandbox game, then it will make your job much easier. If you can't find appropriate tables I would suggest that you front-load your prep by making your own tables ahead of time. You could look at scarlet heroes to see how to make your own tables curated toward your setting.

[@TheBasicExpert]

Good luck with the sandbox game! Players that really want that kind of game and are proactive will make it much easier for you.

[@AuthoritativeNewsNetwork]

May I suggest utilising XP = GP, to incentivise them to seek out big hauls of fresh doubloons on the open oceans and trade seas. 🤔 Might also look to Brancalonia's Bounty system (5e supplement), to track the Risk/Reward consequences of their actions. What starts as Bounty Hunters and Mutinous scurvy dogs eventually escalating to the 'Royal Navy' scouring the four seas for their heads, and presumable vast riches. 😅

[@Rannos22]

ACKS has a pretty robust naval system in it, so it might be worth checking out

[@ostravaofboletaria1027]

​@Authoritative News Network To be more specific, I am running a modified Skulls and Shackles adventure for pathfinder 2e. The module normally has an overarching narrative, but it will fall to the background in my game in favor of the players upgrading their ship more and more to rob sea traders and navy alike, find treasure and complete challenges and feats to become the most infamous Pirates in the world.

[@nerdyogre6683]

Player: I want you to hold my hand, but don't let me know you're holding my hand. GM: ???

[@steveyoungwork]

Random Tables, something your players mention or even your own inspiration can spark an idea to make something interesting happen. I don't know where the problem is, it has nothing to do with having no control, its the GM using various tools to generate ideas.

[@ChuckThorin]

Random tables are good for low prep, inspiration, and when the players decide to go off in a random direction. Also, GM's like to be surprised too about things that happen in the world. Oh consequences. My players ran away from a couple of encounters early in the campaign. Now, they are having to travel thru those areas to reach another city. And they are going to have to deal with what happened because they chose not to take any action earlier.

[@curseofyig6727]

Savage Worlds tends to have Plot Point campaigns. Which I would call mostly a sandbox experience. Go anywhere do anything, every location has something to do and some of them unveil or progress the plot. Slipstream is a great example of a plot point campaign. Random tables everywhere and my favorite, random adventure generator! This can be used in any system.

[@scienceguy8888]

I think the problem is that players have been brought up by videogame rpgs which gives them a lot of bad habits, and due to that they have the wrong mentality for making meaningful choices and letting the DM do their thing

[@DM_Curtis]

Even some video games procedurally generate content, but once it's there, it's there.

[@SHONNER]

What bad habits do players get from videogame RPGs?

[@jamesstern9578]

​@SHONNER Less bad habits and more bad assumptions. The biggest one I can think of is the assumption that if it isn't in the rules, it can't happen. Video games are by necessity mechanically restricted to what code is put in the game before the game ships, so it is very, very rate that you can actually attempt most anything you set your mind to. If the game doesn't code for climbing, you can't climb. Player's used to this conditioning tend to see TTRPGs in the same way, ie "If the rulebook doesn't have rules for climbing/it's not on my character sheet, then I can't do it".

[@SHONNER]

@@jamesstern9578 That habit goes away quickly when not playing a video game. However, it will probably get replaced anyway by new bad habits learned from being in a TTRPG group.

[@jamesstern9578]

@@SHONNER "Bad habits from playing in a TTRPG group." Lmao methinks you are either a troll or a nogame. Regarding the habits going away, there are a huge number of players that have a hard time thinking beyond the character sheet, at least in new editions. Anyways funny trolls brother

[@ravenwulfgar]

I think the criticism of "My choices don't matter" comes from that need to be a medieval fantasy superhero who can just cleave through a horde of dragons with impunity.

[@pepeclifton4462]

Spot on!

[@StornCook]

I really don't use random tables. But recently started running Moediphius's 2d20 Conan. And their Carousing rules (which really should be called Downtime or something else, because you can do a lot more that drink and chase pleasures, but that is a conversation for another time), their Carousing rules does have a random table of what happens while doing this activity...and it is a lot of fun. I am coming back around to random tables when used sparingly. I usually have enough ideas that I don't really need random tables.

[@emilpalisoc9166]

We play once a month and my players are not very proactive. I usually present them with 3 leads to dungeons or rarely working for some faction. The players weigh their options based on what yields the most profit for the least risk and make their choice. Sometimes their choice bites them, and they don't blame the DM, they blame themselves for making that choice. I enjoy when that happens.

[@nostromo9743]

I have, that same White Box alternate b&w cover edition, loving it.

[@mattjackson]

Sidebar comment: I just noticed your books magically floating in the wall. How is this magic possible??

[@TheBasicExpert]

Haha they are a special kind of book shelf. They always trip people out. Has a flap and some tabs that the bottom book uses to look like it's floating.

[@mykediemart]

A sandbox isn't just a DM rolling on charts, it's like what you stated. Player wants to ask about rumors, DM rolls gets a shoemaker npc and the DM then makes up something. that thing can be part of a larger narrative the DM had in mind or it can become it. That is a fun and the challenge of running a game. If I ran railroads I could say I have had campaigns "derailed" by pesky players and random stuff. The "quantum dungeon" (where if the PCs miss a thing the DM just moves it in front of them) is also overly recommended. You know - for the story. But that is also solved with random tables. Put it in a different encounter or just let it go. Your a Dungeon Master not a puppeteer.

[@Merlinstergandaldore]

Random tables have nothing to do with players' choices, rather they reflect the living breathing world in which their characters exist. Things will happen, things that are unexpected and unplanned, and they must react to it. That is as much the game as any plotted encounter the DM has ready for them. It makes it exciting and interesting, and provides opportunity for new direction that even the DM might not have thought of. I personally dislike when the DM feels the need to 'force' an encounter just to have some action, or as you say 'moving' their dungeon to wherever the players choose to go, thus truly removing any real agency.

[@DjigitDaniel]

Excellent video. Honestly, it's a matter of individuals not understanding the synergy and difference between simulation and narration. If we don't use dice and charts to let fate decide aspects of our story... then we may as well have a creative writing workshop. Nothing wrong with either, but we should know what we want and do it intentionally.

[@SHONNER]

Dice are used for results of character actions, and for random world building. What part of that is the story? Or do you have a story made already?

[@DjigitDaniel]

@@SHONNER , I would assume all of it is a story, no? The success of the characters, the outcome of their actions, the self determination of the setting... It's a sliding scale. For me using randomness as a tool, regardless of circumstances, is a design choice which affects game play and participant experience. Again, just my 2¢ based on my time in the hobby as a player, ref, designer, and writer. I know people get passionate about this.

[@SHONNER]

@@DjigitDaniel I asked because I don't have a story when I start a game.

[@DjigitDaniel]

​@@SHONNER , oh! I'm sorry. I misunderstood the bottom line of your question, forgive me. As our gracious host has mentioned, Scarlet Heroes(foremost in my mind among innumerable sources nowadays) provides a phenomenal source of inspiration for generating story randomly with table prompted assets. There are many other sources, especially within the solo-RPG hobby. That said, story (as most things) boils down to the usual Five Ws: Who, What, When, Where, and Why. All these individual things can be made finite with the possibilities and then narrowed down into whatever volume you feel comfortable with organizing into a chart/ table. The work of Mr. Kevin Crawford such as Scarlet Heroes, Stars Without Number, Worlds Without Number, etc. are especially great at providing tools for this. You yourself can make tables and charts, roll crazy dice, and come up with super random scenarios which organically congeal into original plots and adventures when leavened with a good lump of creativity and discernment. Heck, add an Oracle system into your game (where dice answer yes/no/ maybe questions instead of the referee) and you can have a game that practically plays itself. LOL This is a topic I am insanely passionate about. I am currently in the process of drafting materials for a KZbin channel of my own where I intend to tag The Basic Expert and others for cool discussions, workshops, and playtests/ demos of such theories.

[@SHONNER]

@@DjigitDaniel Cool. I have some books from Kevin Crawford and from Zozer Games that I use for Mongoose Traveller. Will look up the Scarlet Heroes one.

[@josephrainer]

This is the weirdest criticism I've ever heard. It's equivalent to saying "When we roll dice, i feel like my choices don't matter". Random tables inject new dynamics to the game the same way rolling dice for a (semi-)random result does. Even if you are a expert at a skill, you can still have the rug pulled beneath you and fail. The dice (and therefore random tables) are an agent in the narrative drive of the game the same way the players and GM are.

[@TheBasicExpert]

I agree. I think it just comes from fundamentally misunderstanding the hobby.

[@elgatochurro]

There's also DMs who don't run an actual sandbox... I'm not saying pseudo sandbox, but downright railroading and mcguffin hunting that doesn't allow any freedom because it's just that important to get them.

[@onealflynn2414]

Our game for the most part is random. Our GM is using mythic to help run the game. I’m having fun and assume the other players our too

[@rexteal1295]

Not to put the blame completely on GMs here, but I wonder if any of these players had a GM that would roll on random tables without allowing player's choices/actions to contribute to them. In other words, the GM tried to run a sandbox but did a poor job at it. I don't know how often this sort of thing happens, but I imagine there are similar situations to this that give players a bad first impression on sandboxes.

[@TheBasicExpert]

High possible. Not understanding the proper use of tables could lead to this.

[@aaronsomerville2124]

Choice lead to outcomes. Generally there is a random chance governing the outcome. Limited, straightforward choices can be understood mathematically. Pre-flop, ceteris paribus you probably have about an 80% win chance with pocket aces in poker. The 'other guy' (perhaps an Orc) is holding the worst hand in poker, 7-2 off suit. He could still beat you. It's always a good decision to raise with A-A and probably a terrible one to bet big on 7-2 but where randomness exists a good decision will never be a perfect one, except maybe in hindsight. Raising with A-A is good play though regardless of outcome. In an RPG, good choices don't have to lead to good outcomes. That's flawed thinking. Good choices, like in poker, are defined as choices which make positive outcomes more likely. If a merchant transporting the famous Star of Vendhya, largest diamond in Hyboria, is carried off by some dumb giant lizards it's probably a good idea for the party to go get after those lizards. Maybe in the ensuing battle, everything comes up Lizard and they all get their heads bitten off. It was still a good decision to go for it and try for that million gold piece gem. Longwinded. Anyway, I think a randomly-matrixed sandbox has to come with a level of trust that the DM is modulating the randomness through the quality of decisions being made. If there are two paths to the Gnomish Theme Park, and one is known to be perilous but the other is known to be safe, sure they can still be ambushed and thus possibly eaten if they take the safe path. But the table that gets rolled on should be different. The ghoul packs should appear more often near the Crag of the Ghouls than near the Patriarch's basilica (well, hopefully). i.e. the available choices have to be intelligible and meaningful. But the other side of that is, no choice is perfect and once it is made, the die is cast and you get what you get.

[@doomhippie6673]

As a GM I don't particularly like Open sandbox games. But that probably has to do with me worldbuilding too much (I just love it, can't keep my fingers off). So random adventures that I roll together or try to come up with on the fly are just not connected enough to the world logic. I need a very good reason why something is there, how does it culturally fit in with the surrounding world, why do people a ll the sudden have names coming from a different cultural or linguistic background? I know, I know, that is the moment when I hear people say - "Gee, write a book." Unfortunately I demand the same attention to detail as a player. So perhaps I am more of the passive player that reacts to what is going on in the world. I remember getting away from DND in the 80s because I wanted this immersion in an alternative reality. The idea of going after treasure etc just didn't do it for me. I ended up in MERP (Middle-earth Role Playing) and Rolemaster and stayed there for 25+ years. I've only returned to DnD with 5th edition and the campaigns I run and enjoy to play are generally story driven. I remember an incident a few years ago during a game where the players had a choice of three or four different location to visit. It took about 4 sessions for them to decide and literally ended with one player asking me "Just tell us where we have to go." So that is about as much experience I have with sandboxing. Kind of sad but I've never been in any sandbox setting that inspired me as a player or a game master.

[@knightofholyorder]

Don't know how much my words would mean to you, but just in case you haven,t read it, I would recommend you to look into World Without Numbers. A system that sells itself as a Sandbox oriented system, but also been very agnostic so you can fit it phylosophies into any system or setting. IDK, maybe it can be the thing that fit your needs

[@jayteepodcast]

Question: why do DMs have the need to hide quest goals and side quest goals? Why not just be upfront

[@AuthoritativeNewsNetwork]

I wonder how much of it is a consequence of 'module' play? 🤔

[@elgatochurro]

It's not the DM who has to make it worthwhile... The players need to know how to play one. It requires player agency else it's no longer a sandbox. Players today want critical role at every table but don't realize cr is a profitable series with writers and a full time DM paid to DM. They want all this focus on themselves, even to the point of thinking the other players are supposed to focus on them too, focus on entertaining them specifically.

[@vincesnetterton2515]

Once again, most of these whiners complaining about their "agency" should never, ever, be allowed near an RPG.

[@TheBasicExpert]

That or they really need to be mentored and taught and they themselves open to that kind of thing so they can learn. Otherwise yeah, this is not the hobby for them.

[@pickpocketpressrpgvideos6655]

RAndom tables make the world more independent and alive, and are onyl rolled on as a result of what the players choose to do. The complainant that using random tables makes player choices less meaningful is straight up wrong. The opposite it true. It's weird, as you suggest.

[@DM_Curtis]

There is no object permanence in an RPG because it's all just pretend. It really doesn't matter if the GM makes it up or rolls on a random table so long as it's internally consistent, and things are still there if the PCs go back to them.

[@TheBasicExpert]

Agreed. It's in the world now. It's real in the game world. It doesn't matter where it comes from.

[@Rannos22]

Too many groups are used to the GM doing 99% of the work

[@armorclasshero2103]

Players need to realize D+D ain't psychotherapy. It's a board game. Try again. Get good.