Player Piano Revival Episode 14: Resupplification of the Valves (Bends-level Deep Dive)

#atmosphericair #sili #conehed
This 105-year-old player piano is in dire need of an overhaul if it's ever going to be anything more than just a shelving unit.
I often feel like I'm operating inside a vacuum in my little piano shop. It's time to change that.
If you'd like to support my work, please consider subscribing.
Music: Pianostyle 29037 Bye Bye Blackbird, PLAYRITE 5859 Nobody Cares If I'm Blue, Imperial 08570 All I Do Is Dream Of You, QRS 8034 Cuddle, QRS 7993 Don't Fence Me In, QRS 8759 Because Of Rain, Imperial 06582, US Music Rolls 44466 Tired Hands played on a restored 1917 Autopiano with Silicone inside secondary valve facings.

[@jwsasso]

Wow! Very professionally done. Loved all the added humor.. The dog was a great actor too. He was adorable! Thank you for a wonderful video Nate. Jim-APP

[@nateoutsidethevacuum]

Thank you for watching and for the kind words!

[@markshogan2642]

I’ve always like player pianos. I find your work fascinating and enjoyable.

[@nateoutsidethevacuum]

Thank you! It's lucky that I generally enjoy the work.

[@greggilbert78]

Thank you for sharing your experimentation with different methods for rebuilding.

[@nateoutsidethevacuum]

Thanks Greg! It's like making lasagna; everyone has a different method. Of course the true test will come when it's all back together!

[@RetnuhN]

I’ve had a player for 10 years that I hope to FINALLY dig into within the next year. This job scares me the most. I can’t go scavenging for spare parts, I’ve just got the one to work with. It’s a 1925 Kohler & Campbell with a Standard player action. I’ve never heard it play a single note on its own.

[@nateoutsidethevacuum]

Standards are very rebuildable! Enjoy your project.

[@iangillis1271]

Another good installment, nice to see the largest chore over and done! I appreciated your vintage piano props and your vintage Tupperware too. The 70s called: they want their plastic foodware back 😄 JK, I still have mine too

[@nateoutsidethevacuum]

Plastics make it plausible!

[@Reuben-]

Yup, really opened a can of worms there. Love the puns. Love the work your doing and the lengths you go to to explain how it all works.

[@nateoutsidethevacuum]

I'm glad you're getting something out of it! This series was certainly a passion project.

[@andrewbarrett1537]

Excellently explained and illustrated and nice jokes as well!!!

[@daveallan3152]

Great video! The perflex pouches made me laugh! Thanks

[@nateoutsidethevacuum]

Glad it gave you a chuckle! Thanks for watching.

[@johntyjp]

Later versions didn't have 2 sets of valves, my Weber. Aeolian from the 1920s has only one set thank goodness!🧐

[@nateoutsidethevacuum]

Lucky!

[@DecapObsessed]

I appreciate the effort you put into your videos, and the piano. I watched this series mainly to know what even goes on inside a player piano, and you have done a great job explaining! Thank you very much!

[@nateoutsidethevacuum]

I'm glad it's been helpful, thanks for watching!

[@DuoArtOrgan]

I finally had a chance to watch this episode - great job Nate! I had to admit I got quite a chuckle out of the Newman’s Own dressing 🤣

[@nateoutsidethevacuum]

Phew! Glad that one landed OK. It was more than just "set dressing" :)

[@garykyp579]

As a Tupperware consultant who also works on reed organs and pianos, why have I never thought of this?

[@nateoutsidethevacuum]

It's like they're made for this. I'm no cook, but I don't see any real use for them in the modern-day kitchen!

[@garykyp579]

The old egg trays are good for holding reeds

[@wurly164]

Great work.

[@nateoutsidethevacuum]

Thanks again for following along! This episode was a real challenge. Phew!

[@jamesnicholson3313]

Very well explained, when it was necessary I used to hate having to replace all the primary and secondary pouches, as far as the air seepage in original player timber goes the Gulbransen air channels used to require re laquering to achieve good results

[@nateoutsidethevacuum]

Thank you! That's another reason for a thorough teardown: to seal every inch of internal channels with several coats of shellac.

[@arnhemseptember2009]

I have a vacuum valve in my brain. When it opens after a bottle of wine it helps me understanding... No doubt a genius who invented this.

[@nateoutsidethevacuum]

Whatever works! Thanks for watching.

[@andrewbarrett1537]

These developed by way of evolution from some very early ideas and patents: Mr Jacquard’s automatic loom/weaving machine from the very early 19th century which mechanically read punch cards to program patterns into the loom; Mr Barker’s famous “Barker lever”, possibly the earliest version of what we would call a “striker pneumatic” (but on air pressure, not suction) used starting in the mid 19th century as a mechanical power-assist mechanism in large pipe organs to make them easier to play (pull down the note valves to the pipes) without the key touch weight (finger pressure) becoming excessive due to so many ranks of pipes turned on putting extra air pressure on the pipe valves etc. Most suction player piano technology evolved from 1870s/1880s era organette and player reed organ technology using punched paper rolls and suction.

[@andrewbarrett1537]

The early player actions in organettes were very crude and operated on what was called a “paper as a valve” principle. The tracker bar, made out of wood, was a giant harmonica containing the organ reeds, or at least channels which led directly to them. The bellows and reservoir for suction were directly connected to this. When a large sized (maybe 1/2” wide) hole in the paper appeared, in enabled air to break the suction and rush down and through the reed. Although this system works fine (besides the huge and rare1876-1880 Needham Musical Cabinet, it is also used in many small popular organettes including the Melodia; Aurephone; Tournaphone; Musical Casket, etc), it is not very “snappy” in action and a bit sluggish. So slightly later, a pouch and valve system with bleed was devised to act as a relay to switch a more traditional pallet valve on and off to admit air into the reed channel on cue from a more reasonably-sized hole in the roll. Organettes like the Symphonia; Mandolina; Celestina; Bijou Orchestrone and more use this intermediate valve system, dating from the 1880s. Welte also applied a version of it to their large orchestrions (which had previously been played by pinned cylinders) starting about 1887. And it just grew from there.

[@andrewbarrett1537]

The earliest commercially successful player piano and piano player actions like the Aeolian Pianola and Wilcox & White Angelus, almost always used a double-valve action like here; these instruments typically played 65-note piano rolls of some type or other (rarely; a type of 58-note or 66-note roll; European instruments were often 73-note); the rolls had relatively large holes in the tracker bar spaced 6 holes per inch because the player actions were comparatively large and crude (as compared with this and later players). Thus, primary valves were considered absolutely essential in this early period by the makers, in order for the action to have a snappy and sensitive response to the holes in the roll while being played at a variety of suction / dynamic levels (very soft to very loud). It was feared single valves (with bleeds) would not be sensitive enough. However, the technology improved enough that by about 1920, quite a lot of player actions in the USA were single-valve, including some major makers. This Autopiano action is thus from a transitional period. By about 1925 almost all player actions produced in the USA were single-valve and only a few were still double-valve like this. Both double and single valve types can perform very well when properly restored and regulated.

[@arnhemseptember2009]

@@andrewbarrett1537 Thank you!

[@andrewbarrett1537]

I cringed when you sawed through that other Standard or Autopiano salvaged action with the saw, but I am starting to get used to the idea of parts and pieces “giving their lives for science”. In this case you cut it very well to make an excellent 3-D cross-section model of the action, which in my opinion is MUCH BETTER for the novice to comprehend than even the best illustrations in books and on websites. Very nice!!! Maybe you could saw the rest of the stack into similar pieces and send them to various restorers who are teaching / mentoring younger restorers? It seems that this could be a great teaching tool.

[@nateoutsidethevacuum]

I thought of you as I was plugging in the Sawzall. If I had skills as a graphic artist, a 3D model would be the best way to show how these systems work. But that's well beyond my wheelhouse. Thank you for understanding my decision! Knowing I was using the cutoff as a model that could potentially help others made it all worth it.

[@prymisvzvizion5378]

I feel that I have the skills with Inventor Pro from Autodesk I am self-taught, I do not, at least not currently have skills with "wireframe composite animation" or the program "Blender" but If whoever reads this, either the uploader of this video or this uploader, slash hopefully subscriber, was willing to compose a deal, and send me very detailed existing blueprints, illustrations, pictorials, photographs, I can make 3D model/ models and drawings, schematics, blueprints, shop drawings, technical plans whatever you want to call them, of individual, separate, single parts, sub-assemblies, major assemblies/ main assemblies, I can even make a 3D model of the entire player piano itself. Now in terms of showing animated arrows or flow of air and making components move on their own that is not what I'm referring to, every part is individual and the only way to animate it would really be just the screen recording of the interface of inventor itself in other words me working on a computer, a screen recording. I am also trying to conduct a business of my own such as architecture where I can draw blueprints schematics shop drawings technical plans and I would hope that someone would eventually get interested in my logos that are all self designed and I want to print on t-shirts to generate capital for anything else I would do in business but even that of course cost money which I have basically none of, but if I were to generate internet traffic, and momentum just 1 or 2 people's interest it would be distributed and passed down and hopefully a name of mine and a logo would eventually be well known in a small city a major city an entire State the whole country eventually, but I feel if one really desires to get an idea across to the RIGHT people, RIGHT audience that it should start with T-shirts. I hope that what I am offering is clear and comprehensive, and someone responds to this.

[@Derek-cw9mn]

I feel that I have the skills with Inventor Pro from Autodesk I am self-taught, I do not, at least not currently have skills with "wireframe composite animation" or the program "Blender" but If whoever reads this, either the uploader of this video or this uploader, slash hopefully subscriber, was willing to compose a deal, and send me very detailed existing blueprints, illustrations, pictorials, photographs, I can make 3D model/ models and drawings, schematics, blueprints, shop drawings, technical plans whatever you want to call them, of individual, separate, single parts, sub-assemblies, major assemblies/ main assemblies, I can even make a 3D model of the entire player piano itself. Now in terms of showing animated arrows or flow of air and making components move on their own that is not what I'm referring to, every part is individual and the only way to animate it would really be just the screen recording of the interface of inventor itself in other words me working on a computer, a screen recording. I am also trying to conduct a business of my own such as architecture where I can draw blueprints schematics shop drawings technical plans and I would hope that someone would eventually get interested in my logos that are all self designed and I want to print on t-shirts to generate capital for anything else I would do in business but even that of course cost money which I have basically none of, but if I were to generate internet traffic, and momentum just 1 or 2 people's interest it would be distributed and passed down and hopefully a name of mine and a logo would eventually be well known in a small city a major city an entire State the whole country eventually, but I feel if one really desires to get an idea across to the RIGHT people, RIGHT audience that it should start with T-shirts. I hope that what I am offering is clear and comprehensive, and someone responds to this

[@Derek-cw9mn]

I feel that I have the skills with Inventor Pro from Autodesk I am self-taught, I do not, at least not currently have skills with "wireframe composite animation" or the program "Blender" but If whoever reads this, either the uploader of this video or this uploader, slash hopefully subscriber, was willing to compose a deal, and send me very detailed existing blueprints, illustrations, pictorials, photographs, I can make 3D model/ models and drawings, schematics, blueprints, shop drawings, technical plans whatever you want to call them, of individual, separate, single parts, sub-assemblies, major assemblies/ main assemblies, I can even make a 3D model of the entire player piano itself. Now in terms of showing animated arrows or flow of air and making components move on their own that is not what I'm referring to, every part is individual and the only way to animate it would really be just the screen recording of the interface of inventor itself in other words me working on a computer, a screen recording. I am also trying to conduct a business of my own such as architecture where I can draw blueprints schematics shop drawings technical plans and I would hope that someone would eventually get interested in my logos that are all self designed and I want to print on t-shirts to generate capital for anything else I would do in business but even that of course cost money which I have basically none of, but if I were to generate internet traffic, and momentum just 1 or 2 people's interest it would be distributed and passed down and hopefully a name of mine and a logo would eventually be well known in a small city a major city an entire State the whole country eventually, but I feel if one really desires to get an idea across to the RIGHT people, RIGHT audience that it should start with T-shirts. I hope that what I am offering is clear and comprehensive, and someone responds to this.

[@thisoldminewithlars5324]

Very nice “opening a can of worms” symbolism. Or is it literalism. 😊

[@nateoutsidethevacuum]

Yes!

[@dcallan812]

Nice job, there insides are a little complicated. So many parts, I was thinking of the poor people who only sat and built one after another for years. 🤦‍♂ Interesting video 2x👍

[@nateoutsidethevacuum]

Good point! Not only were they looking at the same design every day, they were probably stuck with the same mundane task for weeks on end during a run.

[@McKayPerkins-jo7dn]

Hey Nate. I’m loving this series, and feel a kinship with my own memories of going to North Tonawanda (Buffalo) New York to play on my grandparents’ player that my uncle restored. From the snow, and accent, I’m guessing you’re back east too? I have a leaky player piano that I want to fix, but am a bit daunted as to where I would go to find the myriad of materials I should get for everything, or homemade solutions when appropriate and necessary. Things like leather for pouches, felt, silicone, tools, pneumatic hoses, and bellows cloth etc. Would you consider making a video sharing any active sources for products that you buy, and/or making affiliated links to materials/tools that you get? Thanks for your videos and humor! If ever you’d consider taking on a “Zoom” apprentice, I’d love to connect and learn more from you as I begin my process.

[@Mrcaffinebean]

I am finally caught up! I have learned a TON watching these videos. And I laughed a lot! You definitely have gift for both mechanical things and video production. I ordered the books and yesterday I moved my free Sting 2 Aeolian. Boy what a job, but it plays OK. The air motor isn’t keeping great tempo so I have some fabric to replace but I’m pleased it at least plays as is!

[@nateoutsidethevacuum]

I'm glad you're finding the series worthwhile. Enjoy your new project! It's lucky to have found you.

[@andrewbarrett1537]

Don't forget to also watch Bruce Newman's video about rebuilding plastic 1960s-1980s Aeolian valves, on his "DuoArtOrgan" channel. A must for anyone rebuilding this type of modern player piano.

[@Mrcaffinebean]

@@andrewbarrett1537 thanks for the recommendation!

[@prymisvzvizion5378]

I feel that I have the skills with Inventor Pro from Autodesk I am self-taught, I do not, at least not currently have skills with "wireframe composite animation" or the program "Blender" but If whoever reads this, either the uploader of this video or this uploader, slash hopefully subscriber, was willing to compose a deal, and send me very detailed existing blueprints, illustrations, pictorials, photographs, I can make 3D model/ models and drawings, schematics, blueprints, shop drawings, technical plans whatever you want to call them, of individual, separate, single parts, sub-assemblies, major assemblies/ main assemblies, I can even make a 3D model of the entire player piano itself. Now in terms of showing animated arrows or flow of air and making components move on their own that is not what I'm referring to, every part is individual and the only way to animate it would really be just the screen recording of the interface of inventor itself in other words me working on a computer, a screen recording. I am also trying to conduct a business of my own such as architecture where I can draw blueprints schematics shop drawings technical plans and I would hope that someone would eventually get interested in my logos that are all self designed and I want to print on t-shirts to generate capital for anything else I would do in business but even that of course cost money which I have basically none of, but if I were to generate internet traffic, and momentum just 1 or 2 people's interest it would be distributed and passed down and hopefully a name of mine and a logo would eventually be well known in a small city a major city an entire State the whole country eventually, but I feel if one really desires to get an idea across to the RIGHT people, RIGHT audience that it should start with T-shirts. I hope that what I am offering is clear and comprehensive, and someone responds to this.

[@c.k.4233]

Wow, Nice work !!!!

[@droneprofessor249]

As usual, informative and entertaining….I had to laugh out loud when you suggested you were going to use the synthetic pouches as I was thinking all the old restorers guys were cringing and yelling at the video saying….Nooooo! I’m glad my Baldwin stack has only one set of valves and much simpler in construction. I would love to see the Columbia organ goat skin valve leather tested in your setup to see how it performs. I used them in mine and they appear to seal very well.

[@nateoutsidethevacuum]

Glad I could make you laugh. Hindsight is 20/20...I wonder how my silicone valves will hold up. Time will tell. Baldwins are one of my favorite stacks to restore due to their simplicity.

[@shawnmalone3803]

@@nateoutsidethevacuum the only challenge I see with silicone is it’s ability to maintain its suppleness and therefore air tightness over time but high heat is generally the biggest culprit in that aspect and your valves shouldn’t be seeing that. Most silicone products have stabilizers in them to make them last much longer. You should be good!

[@nateoutsidethevacuum]

@@shawnmalone3803 check back in 30 years!

[@risingchads]

Did you use a bubble jar to see the flow through puches? And the effect of sealing the pouches with whatever you used - which you didn't mention! I suspect the effect might be quite illustrating.

[@nateoutsidethevacuum]

I ran outta steam on this one. However, I sealed all pouches - including the edges - with thinned out PVC-e.

[@eDoc2020]

It took me until almost the end of the video to realize what you were doing with the can of gummy worms: you were opening them.

[@nateoutsidethevacuum]

Thanks for watching!

[@shangyien]

This is the video I most wanted to see! What are you using for a valve facing punch?

[@nateoutsidethevacuum]

www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B000X35UQ8?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_title

[@shangyien]

@@nateoutsidethevacuum Thanks! That looks very useful.

[@andrewbarrett1537]

Have you tried the leather from Columbia Organ Leathers in Pennsylvania yet??? Some friends use it and although maybe not as airtight as your silicone (and I certainly can see the tanning chemicals in the leather causing corrosion to the metal valve stems like here), they swear by it. Worth investigating and testing.

[@nateoutsidethevacuum]

Do you know which variety they use? COL offers so many different species/treatments.

[@andrewbarrett1537]

Ask my friend Doug Bullock in Alton IL (the restorer: “Piano World Enterprises”) as he instructed me which materials to order for my own Straube “Hammond” / Standard piano back in 2009 (although that project stalled out due to lack of workshop space; I will retest the materials for airtightness when I restart). The materials I received looked very good.

[@TheComicMaker24]

What's so bad about Gulbransens? - looks at glued stack and cries -

[@nateoutsidethevacuum]

We're in this together, Pal.

[@andrewbarrett1537]

I have heard a variety of methods for getting the glued Gulbransen stack apart including steaming it apart with steam; using vinegar to dissolve the glue; and putting the entire stack in a large industrial freezer! I imagine the results vary with each method. The old pros can tell you their best ideas.

[@bryancunningham1095]

Nate, have you ever thought to create videos of the most found player mechanisms on tear down and repair and restore at least on the more common makes. There seems to be very little info on this aspect of the restoration end, very few books and the guides from manufactures like schulz are no larger than a postcard and only a few pages. There are a lot of restores out there that need a more comprehensive guide, player pianos and player mechanisms are getting few and far between our there and many of us would like to bring our own units up to speed and don't think we would threaten the restoration market that much, I my self would be willing to pay for a restoration guide on my unit (werner piano and schultz mechanism), what are your ideals on this subject.

[@nateoutsidethevacuum]

Thanks for your thoughts. I'm sorry, but I don't think the Schultz is common enough to justify a series of restoration videos.

[@bryancunningham1095]

@@nateoutsidethevacuum i thought that schulz units where pretty few and looks like they used one of the thinnest pouch cloth materials that can't be found anymore. I still learn a lot watching your videos, keep up the good work.

[@nateoutsidethevacuum]

@@bryancunningham1095 thanks Bryan!

[@andrewbarrett1537]

​@@nateoutsidethevacuum Schulz are far more common than you think. They had already built over 100,000 pianos by the mid 1920s. According to Mr. Schulz himself (son of the founder) in an interview with Q. David Bowers, they made something like 8,000 pianos in 1923 (their best year for sales) which is a preposterous number! Likely 2/3 of those were players that year, as 2/3 of all USA pianos built in 1923 were player pianos of some type. Not nearly every piano built by them has the Schulz name; they also built Brinkerhoff; Werner; Maynard and several other brands as well, and in some cases may have built some stencil/special name pianos. I didn't use to think they were common either, until I started paying attention and was amazed at how many are still around all over the place, although again, only a few have the "Schulz" name on them. This is considered one of the most responsive player actions ever built (repeats notes very well and distinctly at low suction levels), and so great for playing expressively. It is also very hard to restore and not for the novice. So if you did feel like doing a video in the future, that would be awesome. I read a notice in MMD several years ago that a fellow in Missouri who was known as the "#1 Schulz player action specialist" had passed away and I think his family were offering his tools and things for sale. I think it may have been a family member or friend who posted the listing. I can not find the post at the moment (it was from several years ago, but probably no older than 2016), despite having conducted an intensive search of MMD for it about a year ago in the hopes of learning this gentleman's name and if he had ever recorded any instructional videos of his special method for rebuilding Schulz players. It was not a name I thought I had ever seen or heard before. If I do manage to find the post I will let you all know here.

[@bryancunningham1095]

Mr Barrett if you ever get in contact with this Schultz family I would be interested to know about it, I have a Werner piano with a M. Schulz player mechanism

[@bryancunningham1095]

Nate, I like your videos, still can't stand to see player mechanisms or valve blocks being cut up but I understand that many of these are no good and I appreciate seeing the insides of these as a visual aid there is no substitute. Question i am rebuilding my air motor on my schulz mechanism and notice that there is good 3/16 inch gap between the valve slides and their wooden frame section that holds them in, is this normal and do I just install some felt disc on top of the valve slides to help hold them down or will the suction be enough to hold these down. I could also plane the support rails down to decrease the gap to 1/16 inch or so then place some felt disc on the slides to help push them down a little, the original felts on top of the slides where all missing but the felts and the outside edges of the slides where mostly there.

[@nateoutsidethevacuum]

The slide valves should not need to be in direct contact with any guide felt. I wouldn't plane down any wooden parts unless it's a very last resort.

[@andrewbarrett1537]

If you manage to free up the rubbing wooden slide valves, you can try lubricating them with powdered graphite / graphite applied via a stick / pencil tip. As the old brass labels applied to many wind motors by many makers read: do NOT use actual oil on this item at any time (although in fairness you didn't suggest you would do this).

[@bryancunningham1095]

Thanks for info, noticed several high spots so I carefully flattened the air motor valve board and the wooden slides, I will do nothing about the small gap as the vacuum should hold it down, also replaced the bushings on the slider rods going to the crankshaft, doing this restoration has been fun and quite informative, like they say its been real😀, thanks for your help, really enjoy your videos.

[@billgottesman6106]

Very informative. Did you also use silicon sheet on the outer face of the valves?

[@nateoutsidethevacuum]

I did, yes. All wood surfaces that the silicone seals against were sanded up to 320 grit, lacquered, and treated with a mold release product.

[@billgottesman6106]

@@nateoutsidethevacuum Thank you, very helpful. Also, I appreciate some of the subtle touches: I didn't get the can-of-worms reference at first. I missed the "bends-Level deep dive" reference, too.

[@nateoutsidethevacuum]

@@billgottesman6106 thanks for commenting on those! I never know what will land and what won't.

[@bisem433]

I have not done a valve rebuild for over 25 years so materials and methods change. Now I am rebuilding a Autopiano valves with the screw on outter facings and they have no wobble. How were these built originally to have wobble. Also this piano has been rebuilt in the past and the facings have no felt between the leather and and disk like yours. Any suggestions?

[@PlayerPianoWilliam]

I have 2 notes on my piano that don’t work. When I open the signal, they work fine but when a hole is open on the tracker bar, they do nothing. What do you think could fix that? I have a beckwith with the valves in front.