Answer to a question I'm seeing a lot here, and which I got a lot on the Drumeo video - "shouldn't you just feel it". The word "just" is doing a lot of work. Of course you should also feel things. And the purpose of exercises like those in this video is actually to get you to feel better. You don't want to be thinking on the bandstand. You want to be in flow, but also not be surprised when you check out the recording. I think a lot of new viewers of this channel probably haven't seen this video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/f5KogZ2wlr2chMU
@MiddleMalcolm Жыл бұрын
@The 80/20 Drummer "Shouldn't you just feel it?" SERIOUSLY? Technique deserves focus AND practice. Couldn't we boil an awful lot of important things down to "Shouldn't you just feel it?" What we're talking about are two stages of groove and feel. Early on, where the time and groove feels like it's outside of your body and you are chasing it. Later on, when you can tell the time and groove is deep inside your whole body. That's what you are doing the exercises for. To get to that point. Next level pocket. Again... Great vid Nate!
@harrycrab8725 Жыл бұрын
I don’t know - there a ton of videos out there of people “feeling it” that sound pretty bad! They haven’t yet connected the physical or their ears to their feeling.
@simonhoy7775 Жыл бұрын
Yes I guess exercises (like these) are for developing awareness, a little like Billy Wards Big Time concept. But then I think about someone like the late Clyde Stubblefield who you see in recent videos playing with a very different feel to when he played with James Brown. James was all about discipline as a band leader but he emanated some other x factor that no about of theory can really produce.
@robertdore9592 Жыл бұрын
THANKS Nate.. Yeras ago I attended a drum clinic with J R Robinson who took this basic idea even further by shifting different parts of the set around the beat i.e. bass drum on the beat snare slightly behind etc it was fascinating and so well played that ij just sounded great but I couldn't really HEAR everything as it all came out as a sonic collage...
@BrianH020 Жыл бұрын
The parking spot analogy is one of the best I've ever heard to describe playing "ahead", "in the middle", or "behind" the beat. I remember Jeff Porcaro was once asked about playing on "Dirty Laundry" by Don Henley. He said, "That's laying that sucker back as far as I could." Darn near flamming with the drum machine at times lol I'd say his motorcycle was the size of a Hot Wheels car, parking in an SUV parking spot... Keep it up Nate!
@MiddleMalcolm Жыл бұрын
Jeff P also talked about overdubbing on sessions where tracks had been put together piece by piece, and were all over the place time wise. He would have to find a way to groove in some kind of middle ground to make it feel right. To someone with his ears, and infinitely deep pocket, it must have been brutal at times. Using Nate's parking analogy, like trying to land a spot in a parking lot without lines. 😂
@tyrone31877 Жыл бұрын
I'll be honest. That first snare beat of the video......that sound was everything!!
@mikepietrusko5775 Жыл бұрын
Had a lesson with Keith Carlock years ago, met him at the 55 bar. Man was he nice too! So a big take away from him was "giving notes their full value".. He demonstrated with by playing the hits at the end of The Chicken.. Most guys rush those he said, and don't give the figures their full value. We had the lesson in an old basement rehearsal studio in Greenwich Village. The kit was beat up, covered with duct tape, he still sounded absolutely incredible, he made those drums sing!
@zeichner42 Жыл бұрын
Thanks once again for expanding on this topic. I really believe that using a displaced click (as well as a gap click) is one of the most useful tools we musicians have for learning pocket & groove. I have to confess, however, that getting to the point of hearing the click on the 2nd 16th took me months of very slow practice (starting around 40 bpm). In the beginning, I also had to relearn that feel for every new beat I practiced. With each new beat, hearing the displaced click became a little easier. I think it's worth emphasizing the importance of slow practice for learning to find the pocket (parking space), as minor discrepancies are much more audible at very slow tempos.
@caffeineadvocate Жыл бұрын
I always explained it by holding up two parallel drumsticks-each representing beats 1 and 2, and talking about the wideness of said sticks. I enjoy your analogy of the same principle. It’s very, very important in order to get a grasp on feel. Thanks, as always!
@nicksaya Жыл бұрын
Thanks for the video
@infinitesimotel Жыл бұрын
Level of detail. Excellent analogy. It's like an engineers "tolerance" as long as it falls within that space, it's on time.
@matzabean Жыл бұрын
Beautiful exercise! Thanks, Nate!
@elliottcovert37964 ай бұрын
Steve Jordan has a video floating around somewhere where he stresses drummers knowing "the full value of a quarter note." He uses an analogy similar to the parking space: he says that when Michael Jordan was in his prime, the basketball hoop seemed like it was a mile wide and he just couldn't miss it. Slightly different metaphor, same critical point.
@masonchase4599 Жыл бұрын
so cool! and thanks for the playing in time course
@MiddleMalcolm Жыл бұрын
Outstanding concept and presentation. I have taught this type of thing many times, so it's always fun to hear another analogy. (parking space) Love the channel.
@harrycrab8725 Жыл бұрын
I’ve always explained this as a number line to 100. Quarters being 25, 50, 75, and 100. If you play BD 1 & 3 at 25 and 75, and your snare on 2 & 4 at 50 and 100, it’s squarely on the beat. If you keep the BD but play backbeats at 28 and 03 of the next measure, the backbeats are a little late but may sound laid back with the BD still propelling the groove forward in time. Most of us play plus or minus 3 or 4 resulting in a range, for example ONE on the BD could be in the range of 23-28 and it’s inconsistent measure to measure. That just sounds like sloppy time and will frustrate a good bass player who’s trying to hear where you’re putting the beat. If you’re consistent playing the ONE at 23, and THREE at 73, then your BD is on top, and it may or may not produce the right feel for the song, but at least it’s consistent. BTW, if you play consistently at 28, 53, 78, and 03 - then you’re just dragging, you’re consistently behind the beats relative the band. If the bass player and band follow you, establishing a “new” 0-100 and you again start dragging, it means you’re not hearing where you are really placing the beat relative to others - no matter where they play the beat, there’s a latency before you play your beat. You can develop this inadvertently as I did by playing along to music and letting the recording “lead” you - you’re actually waiting to hear the beat on the recording. It’s best to record yourself and make sure you sound like you’re leading the band, not following. Alternatively, you could teach the number line to 48 to better accommodate triplets: quarters are 12, 24, 36, 48, and within a quarter, 16ths are 3,6,9,12 whereas triplets are 4,8,12 etc. but hey, this is music not numerology. Reading back, I now realize the numbers for quarters should be 0-25-50-75. Especially b/c if you’re laying back (a little late) with beat 4, you’re NOT in the next measure. So BD on 0, 50, SD on 25, 75. If you are ahead or “on top” of beat 1, you ARE in the preceding measure technically.
@shilohstrawbridge7271 Жыл бұрын
Great explanation as always - love the 🏍 analogy, and the way we can “stop hearing” the click after awhile (like we get used to the smell of a house with 🐈 🐈⬛ 🐈 😂). You’ve got a way with words, Nate. Will work on the click shift exercises today. 🥰 thx again
@rcjinAZ Жыл бұрын
Great lesson on groove.
@peacegroove7854 Жыл бұрын
This is such an interesting topic. Only people that have a highly accurate INNATE sense of time can just "feel it", and of course, I'm talking about world class musicians. But if you want to TEACH this stuff, you can't rely on everyone "just feeling it", because the reality is that the majority of people do not have the level of precision necessary to play around with note placement unless they work at it (myself included). This means that your ears can'´t really hear those subtle nuances, so therefore you don't know how bad your time feel is. But if you work at it, as your listening skills get sharpened, you start a positive cycle: the more I work at it, the better I get and ALSO the more you hear what you need to work on. Thanks for your videos Nate, keep it up!
@8020drummer Жыл бұрын
I think that's largely accurate. Nice take.
@yuriselukoff Жыл бұрын
I love that you’re using a Snareweight #5 in the Drumeo video! People aren’t using them enough. They’re fricking awesome! (Crazy expensive though)
@MrDarkstar620 Жыл бұрын
Nice video Nate. I learned this "flow" and feel through transcribing and traversing Advanced Funk Studies by Rick Latham. It seems R&B and Funk are huge great forms for this feeling; no surprise Steve Jordan is commended here. Can't wait to test out your approach though.
@guillermodelnoche Жыл бұрын
“Thank you for talking to me Africa” by Sly and the Family Stone is the Bible on 2 and 4 pocket playing. 7 minutes of Funk restraint. Any bassist looking to groove ultra hard should also check it out.
@killmoreturtles Жыл бұрын
So just a personal observation with a lot of " average" drummers. Don't you see guys like Nate Smith, Steve Jordan, etc.. dancing when they play? I see so many drummers that are so stiff... they don't move anything but their hands and feet; and that's mostly just because they have to. You need to FEEL that beat, not count it. Too many average drummers are going.. 1 and a 2 and a 3, etc. etc... instead of going ' oom bada oom, ofa doom, bada doom ( for a terrible example) . And I actually don't mean that they need to be thinking " oom bada oom, etc..", I just mean that they're naturally thinking like that when they're playing. I guarantee that guys like Nate Smith are not even counting the 1,2 ,3 4... they are filling in the stuff around those numbers.; and the actual numbers are not counted, they're felt in the intervals they naturally occur at. They don't care about 1, 2, 3,..4.. they care about the space in-between. They are still confined by the numbers ( to a degree) but they can do whatever they want in-between ( and around) those numbers... and it will always come out groovy The counting is like an unorganized wave.. sometimes cresting other times rolling... it's not so stiff, and it's certainly not so straight. And maybe that is a natural thing.. I don't really know. I'm not sure if that is something you can buy for $24.99 a month.. It seems like you either really have that feel inside of you, and it will eventually come out on its own after playing long enough, or you don't and you're left counting stiff numbers to yourself in order to keep a time that should be natural
@8020drummer Жыл бұрын
few things: -of course in broad strokes you're right -some people may be confusing cause and effect - great drummers may be able to dance to their own beats because they can create danceable beats -I've seen many many many many many many examples of drummers without a church or gig background trying to "feel" things and it not working, or working quickly enough. In the end, I'd advocate BOTH - and if you're practicing correctly, you're actually *teaching* yourself to feel it anyway. This video is probably my best thoughts on the matter: kzbin.info/www/bejne/f5KogZ2wlr2chMU
@guitarlolfriend Жыл бұрын
i fully disagree tim. kzbin.info/www/bejne/ioPPZomtZ6aUfrM dave is insane and is an extremely strong advocate for counting out loud while playing
@mattheasboelter5217 Жыл бұрын
On your point about drummers not dancing, I think you're probably not paying attention to styles with lots of coordination like latin. Go check out Daphnis Prieto. That man can create a monster groove, but his body is incredibly stiff and controlled when he plays. It would be physically impossible for him to play the things he plays if he was trying to dance around at the same time. The extra motion would make his feel worse, not improve it. I'm no where close to being on his level, honestly, I'm practically an amateur. I've been getting into jazz recently and have been going to a lot of jam sessions. One of the biggest comments I was getting early on was about how much I lacked balance in my playing. Every time I used the hihat or kick drum, my entire body would shift it's weight from this movement. As I've learned to tame this lack of balance, I've gotten a lot more control, and my time has gotten infinitely better. I'm not saying that no drummer should ever be dancing while they play, but it should always be secondary to anything else. If you can't play in time in a balanced manner without unnecessary motion, you have no business trying to groove harder by adding in motion that is more for the visual than the sound.
Totally true - dancing is a doorway. Steve Gadd is a great dancer and there is a natural correlation between dance and drumming, when you look at it from this perspective, it becomes transparent - feel it!
@benbynum Жыл бұрын
Great stuff! Would love to hear your opinion about the balance between this kind of "thinking" exercise and more "feeling" practice like listening and playing along with records
@8020drummer Жыл бұрын
Broad strokes, think in the practice room, practice feeling in the practice room, feel on the bandstand. The goal is not to be overthinking during performance, the goal is to achieve flow during performance, then the recording doesn’t surprise you. With this metronome stuff, we’re teaching our body to “feel” it. If it feels like thinking you haven’t done it long enough or you jumped to too high a difficulty level too soon.
@benbynum Жыл бұрын
@@8020drummer "If it feels like thinking you haven’t done it long enough". Well put!
@philipmcevoy7206 Жыл бұрын
Mmm 16th note off beats that's tricky but I love it
@sody2000 Жыл бұрын
finally he's playing on a kit that is not a king kong size pile of garbage! LOVE the 80/20 drummer. He's awesome.
@xXEvangelXx Жыл бұрын
Maybe I just am naturally bad at this, but playing (in) time is probably the single hardest thing about this instrument. Whenever I record myself I notice so many little inconsistencies that I'm just in awe of the really chop heavy players like Thomas Pridgen or Zach Hill because not only do they fart out an absurd amount of notes, it's all in perfect time and they can make it feel good too. Videos like this help demystify it at least, but it's still a difficult thing to get a handle on. Note spacing, note spacing, note spacing...
@8020drummer Жыл бұрын
baby steps
@ignacioperezdelcastillo3182 Жыл бұрын
Great
@one-o-four889 Жыл бұрын
Great video, again. I always thought that Copeland is an example of playing ahead of the beat and Hunt Sales is behind the beat. Anyone, correct me if I’m wrong, it would make this whole thing clear for me.
@8020drummer Жыл бұрын
yea stewart definitely played pretty on top ;)
@janetremsing6988 Жыл бұрын
👍Subdivisions! The more there are, the better you lock into the time..!
@alejandrocifuentes603 Жыл бұрын
You're supposed to play eight notes on the first exercise right? Greetings and congrats for you work Nate
@simonhoy7775 Жыл бұрын
Pocket or feel is intrinsic to the idiom one is playing in and is traditionally felt rather than practiced technically. Dennis Chambers when playing with Paliament initially didn't even know what Pocket was. The reason 'those guys' are better than us is usually because they have a natural artistic sense and feel.
@8020drummer Жыл бұрын
so why bother practicing?
@kushking420 Жыл бұрын
My worst habit is playing faster than when I started the song, also when I practice and play beats from songs, they are faster than the original, so when I go back and play to the song, I feel like its dragging
@BrianH020 Жыл бұрын
With time and experience this should get better. Your ears and "internal clock" will become more finely tuned, and your tempo away from the original will more closely align with the actual tempo, so when you play along it won't feel foreign. The more you play with tunes (and play with various tempos and styles to round out your capabilities), the better you'll internalize their tempos...
@spencergsmith Жыл бұрын
Practice with a metronome. Play it in your ear when you’re studying or working. Sleep with it under your pillow. It should be your best friend. Then you will find your time is solid whether it’s there or not, and you can even learn to play on top of or behind the beat intentionally, changing the feel of the groove.
@PedroHenrique-ux2fi Жыл бұрын
Travis Orbin
@crazy8sdrums Жыл бұрын
There doesn't seem to be a 'right way' to play cymbals, but there is a 'wrong way' to play cymbals because it breaks them. Of course, that 'wrong way' can also be the 'right way' to play cymbals if you like having broken cymbals or the money to buy unbroken cymbals. Eventually, after being broke and eating ramen for too long, I got better at playing my cymbals so I wouldn't have to be playing broken cymbals and replacing them...saving me some money to buy better food with. YMMV.
@thepictophilechannel7037 Жыл бұрын
anybody have a good system for knowing which click displacement to use depending on the groove? like obviously triplet based grooves need triplet based clicks, straight need straight, etc, but what exactly would be the difference between using say full 16th offbeats vs just the 4th 16th?
@petarpavasovic6333 Жыл бұрын
What about the faster tempos? I find it impossible to play with this placement above 120BPM...
@nikoparoissien-arce8717 Жыл бұрын
Start slow
@petarpavasovic6333 Жыл бұрын
@@nikoparoissien-arce8717 Yeah I have no trouble playing along to slow and mid tempos but when it gets above 120bpm it seems kind of impossible. Can you do it fast?
@360.Tapestry6 ай бұрын
@@petarpavasovic6333 it's not about playing it fast. you're just training your internal feel/time so that you can have a steadier pocket without a click
@petarpavasovic63336 ай бұрын
@@360.Tapestry slow mid and fast tempos have little to do with eachother, they require completely different skillsets and adjustmets. I am used to playing a lot of slow and mid tempo stuff and have trouble dragging the faster tempos, practicing slowly doesn't really help me have better pocket in faster tempos
@360.Tapestry6 ай бұрын
@@petarpavasovic6333 sounds like you don't have the headroom
@ignacioperezdelcastillo3182 Жыл бұрын
💪💪💪
@lecapitole5663 Жыл бұрын
Pheurst
@Mike-oz5pp Жыл бұрын
All these terms & ideas on how to drum or how to be a better drummer, it's all just confusing!? Every drummer online has their "own" ideas & if we follow them, guess we become better? Guys just play, play Anything too. It's not really "what" u practice as long as ur playing, focusing on ur timing & technique, & have a practice regular routine u will get better. Repetition repetition repetition, "that's" what will make u a better drummer. Playing with other musicians is about the best way to hone ur skills.But we all need that shed time, playing along to tracks & such. Again just play, repetition is key...
@8020drummer Жыл бұрын
all these pilot schools are telling you about stuff like aerodynamics and autopilot modes, and if you're coming into it without context it's hard to see how they reconcile. So let's choose to just follow our bliss. You'll probably learn just as quickly getting behind the controls of an aircraft, just focussing on "not crashing", and just doing it over and over. All these MMA and jiujitsu teachers are teaching these "techniques" etc...
@vekesim Жыл бұрын
it was a good video until the end
@jeremyrushing9659 Жыл бұрын
dude , the way you speak is a rudiment. can you play how you talk as an exercise?
@burakozc3079 Жыл бұрын
i generally dont "count" i just feel timing and i can put anything anywhere anytime.