Playing Without a Shoulder Rest

In this video I talk about playing without a shoulder rest, whether you just want to try it out once or whether you want to switch permanently to playing without a shoulder rest.
I include some body balance exercises and some shoulder exercises from Resonance Training. This is a special method developed by Thomas Lange for musicians. I can very much recommend his work.
www.resonanzlehre.de/english_...
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[@johnalexander301]

Playing without a SR increases one’s balance and sensitivity to the instrument. After switching to restless playing, I developed better intonation, shifting, and tone production. Also I can now play for hours every day without pain.

[@vivolin6521]

That is great! My main reasons for playing without a shoulder rest are the sound and so that my shoulder is free so I can relate to what you write. Especially people who have pain in their neck and shoulder can benefit from this.

[@vivolin6521]

I have been asked if it is possible to play fast passages and shifts without the support of a shoulder rest. Certainly this is possible. Almost all of the greatest violinists of the 20th century played without a shoulder rest. The thumb supports the violin most of the time and when it can't do that (for example when shifting or in fast runs over several positions) then we use our shoulder to support the violin for that brief time and afterwards go back to supporting the violin with the thumb.

[@kathleenhannan]

Thank you so much for this! This is the clearest lesson on playing without a shoulder rest I've seen. I am an adult beginner and I stopped using the shoulder rest almost a year ago because the sound was so much more resonant without it. But I still have felt confused about why holding the violin would be working for a while and then I'd feel incredibly unsteady on another passage. Watching you change the angle and position of the violin as well as moving that arms out and back in was a revelation, and I immediately tried it out and played so much more solidly right away. I cannot thank you enough!

[@vivolin6521]

Thank you very much! I am really glad you got so much help from this video.

[@RockStarOscarStern634]

This is actually how Itzhak Perman plays the Violin, & he does that because he plays sitting down, which is because he got polio when he was 4.

[@mjeffbr]

Best explanation on the subject I have seen so far, thank you.

[@vivolin6521]

Thank you very much!

[@user-do5hd7zb4x]

Thank you for your excellant instruction. I am now playing the first several bars of sibelious vibrato opening. My best sound ever has been at A 440 with eva pirazzi green pkg. I use no shoulder rest and no chin rest. I believe any attachments cause torsion and glue cracks at the bouts. I will occasionaly use a shoulder rest if practicing vibrato but since playing a highly resonant sibelious have concluded my violin sounds best without added accessories.😅

[@vivolin6521]

That is great! The violin does sound so much better without the shoulder rest, that was always my biggest motivation for taking it off. I have never played without a chinrest though. Very glad you found my video helpful.

[@SVRoquetta]

Definitely interesting and helpful, thank you 🙂

[@vivolin6521]

I'm glad it us helpful. Thanks for watching!

[@marcb6444]

Splurged a bit too much for a violin and realised I can’t afford to get a shoulder rest. Good thing I found this channel. Very very helpful. Thanks!

[@vivolin6521]

Lol. No worries, the violin will sound better without a shoulder rest anyway😉 Glad you find this useful🙂

[@jeremybearden444]

Thank you very much for this. I've been going between playing with or without shoulder rests for years. I've always felt more natural without one, but there's so much peer pressure from others, it seems, to use one. Also, I unfortunately had the misunderstanding that the violin being "clamped in" is best (to my neck's detriment lol), probably often on the advice from shoulder rest users themselves, but had never really distinguished the two as necessarily separate methods involving their own techniques. I love the freedom of no shoulder rest and am just rediscovering the creative benefits, this time pain free! Your video is helpful and encouraging 🙂

[@vivolin6521]

That is great! I am glad my video is helpful. The dogmatic approach to the subject of the shoulder rest is something I have been trying to work agains for years. Especially in a case like yours when you feel more comfortable and natural without a shoulder rest. Everybody has to make their own decision because everybody is different. The violin is held so close to our body, it almost becomes part of our body, we need to feel comfortable with it. Best of luck to you violin playing!

[@zagros3000]

Thank you very much. Your videos are always helpful. For a years I have been suffering from neck and shoulder pain and discomfort as well as headaches because of so much tension. I have tried so many shoulder rests without any satisfaction. After watching your video about two weeks ago, I started playing without the shoulder rest. For the first few days it wasn’t easy, but now I feel like I have been freed from a big burden. Thanks again

[@vivolin6521]

That is fantastic! I am glad I could help. Many violinists switch to playing without the shoulder rest because of neck and shoulder pain. The shoulder is a lot more free when one doesn't clamp the violin between chin and shoulder all the time. Playing without a shoulder rest takes some getting used to but after a few weeks one usually feels fine. I am very glad you can get rid of the tension this way!

[@paddlepower888]

Thanks. I need to watch this again. So many other really good videos on this. After twenty fair years with a Bon Musica, I began to have neck and shoulder pain. Because I’m accustomed to having training wheels (shoulder rest) I made a sling to help me play without a shoulder rest. The sling keeps my violin close to my neck during shifts and keeps it from sliding to the right or down my shoulder. I can play with my chin touching nothing now. I can also press my chin gently on the rest to change the angle of my violin. I play with a dish towel on my collarbone-I’m still a little tender there.

[@vivolin6521]

That is impressive creativity! Sometimes we violinists really need to think outside the box. Has your neck and shoulder pain got better since you took the shoulder rest off?

[@paddlepower888]

@@vivolin6521 Slowly, I’m feeling better-you’re so kind to ask. Here’s a video I made about the sling and how to easily make it: kzbin.info/www/bejne/o2mpiWqQm7tnf68

[@vivolin6521]

@@paddlepower888 Thanks so much for sending the link! That sling is a fantastic invention! It gives security but allowes the violin to move in all directions and keeps the shoulder and neck free. And it allowes the violin to resonate freely which it cannot do with a schoulder rest. You should have it patented and offer it to violinists and violists to buy. It is a much better invention than a shoulder rest in so many ways. We never actually drop the violin but the fear of doing so makes playing impossible. Your sling takes care of that without inhibiting sound or mobility. I'm glad your pain is better. The rigid posture of gripping the violin constantly usually leads to problems sooner or later

[@paddlepower888]

@@vivolin6521 Thank you for the kind words. I will pursue a patent. I remember having owned a Resonans shoulder rest - it would regularly fall off my violin as I played 🙁 Rarely, even the Bon Musica fell off. 😄. “never actually drop the violin” NEVER? Fast forward to 4:07 in this clip: kzbin.info/www/bejne/eV7UeJitqcqaa8U 😢 Cheers Jeff

[@augustinechinnappanmuthria7042]

Super tip's fantastic 😍😍

[@vivolin6521]

Thank you!

[@Jesuswinsbirdofmichigan]

Very well produced without stuttering, added (ahh, umm's). As a non violinist just a student of many things, a great video.

[@vivolin6521]

Thank you very much! I am surprised a video like this is at all interesting for a non violinist.

[@windalkaid7088]

Wow! Great to watch your video. I just hurt my chin today since I practice a lot these days.

[@vivolin6521]

Thank you! Sorry to hear you are injured. Perhaps this video will help you. We have to constantly be careful not to cramp too much with our chin. Regardless of whether we play with or without shoulder rest. Get well soon!

[@windalkaid7088]

@@vivolin6521 Thank you, Vivien. You video really helps a lot. Thank you for sharing it and thank you for the suggestions. Love u.

[@vivolin6521]

@@windalkaid7088 I'm glad I can help. Thank you for sharing your experiences! :)

[@user-op6vy3gg2b]

Anne Sophie Mutter doesn't use SR. Heifetz and Milstein strictly orderd their students not to use shoulder rest from day 1. I used to use SR but not any more. Actually violin neck rests on the left index finger because the violin is slightly tillted towards right. So it's not necessary to squeeze the violin with your chin.

[@brianrhodes9687]

Best vid I’ve seen on no shoulder rest…thank you! Just one question… by what mechanism do you tilt the violin to make reaching the g string easier… Do you use your shoulder or do you twist it with the left hand 🙏

[@vivolin6521]

Thank you very much! I tilt the violin by changing the angle of my arm. My elbow goes to the left, wrist and hand theefore move slightly to the right and that tilts the violin. Very small movement. When you experiment with it, it should feel easy. Hope this makes sense.

[@mathildemaijer2396]

Younsay that you hold your violin with your left hand. How exactly? Balancing on your thumb? Or do yo hold it in the gap between thumb and first finger?

[@vivolin6521]

Great question! Thank you! The exact place depends on the context. In positions 1-4 we balance it in the gap between thumb and first finger but if we have a large stretch we bring the thumb under the fingerboard and balance the violin on the thumb. As from fifth position we balance the violin on the thumb.

[@christianbaum6779]

All these movements are very helpful for a relaxed and good sounding violin playing. But do you think all this movements can`t be done also with a sholder rest? Lifting the chin, moving the violin against the bow, hold the violin higher, deeper or tilt in or out?

[@vivolin6521]

Those movements can be done with a shoulder rest and it is a good idea to do them. It is a bit more difficult to be mobile playing with a shoulder rest but yes, it is definately possible and helpful.

[@Minerva-fp1zx]

This is infact how most professionals play with a shoulder rest, they use the rest for height only

[@simon0yeung]

This video is a gem! I’ve been trying this method and intrigued by 2 questions: 1) without a rest, my thumb seems to need to hold higher on the side of the fingerboard, in order to provide an opposite force to the base knuckle of my index finger at the opposite side of fingerboard. This also reduces the empty space between the bottom of the fingerboard and the V formed between base of thumb and palm. Is this normal? 2) I noticed many players without a shoulder rest favors middle chin rests instead of Guarneri style. What is the advantage? Thanks a lot!

[@vivolin6521]

Thank you! Yes, the thumb has to adjust to this method and at first it feels as if the thumb has to press a bit more. That is because one is not yet used to balancing the violin. At first the thumb can feel rather tired quite quickly and it seems to be particularly important when playing without a shoulder rest to reduce the finger pressure and therefore also reduce the thumb pressure (which is correlated with the finger pressure). That usually takes some time because one has to get used to holding and balancing the violin with the left hand while the same time being loose and relaxed. The angle of the hand changes a bit but that depends on the size and shape of each individual hand. Yes, Some violinists even put their shoulder rest on the right side of the tailpiece. Holding the violin in the middle or even to the right of the tailpiece gives a bit more support from the collar bone and one doesn't need to use the shoulder as much. This one has to experiment with and find out what is most comfortable because every player is different. Length of Armes and height and shape of shoulders as well as the length of the neck will determine where the best position is.

[@simon0yeung]

@@vivolin6521 thank you so much again. You are a great teacher

[@vivolin6521]

@@simon0yeung Thank you very much!

[@simon0yeung]

Now I am better used to playing without a shoulder rest, but I am struggling with high positions on G. e.g. the Sul G part of Into & Tarantella (first page of score). It seems that I need to raise the thumb the higher as I go on G, and eventually almost touching the bottom of the V. But then after a point as I need to go super high, I need to reverse and pull down the thumb to reach the super high notes. Just difficult for me to reposition the thumb up and down this way. Am I doing this wrong? Thanks.

[@adlezink]

Could you please kindly explain how you rest the violin on your thumb when vibrating? I have tried but cannot figure it out. My index finger is still touching the neck.

[@vivolin6521]

This is difficult to explain properly in writing. The neck of the violin rests between the 2nd and 3rd joint of the thumb. It might help you to start in 3rd position, many people find it easyer there, and when you feel comfortable in 3rd position work your way down to 1st position. Your question is a good one, I think I will make a video on this topic. Thanks for the inspiration! :)

[@adlezink]

@@vivolin6521 oh Thank you for your quick response. I have followed you for a long time and have tried working on without shoulder rest. Because I'm learning with my little child and she doesn't need one. I still find it hard because when I rest the violin on that part of the finger, my hand actually looks like it is collapsing somehow. Unnatural. I may have placed the neck wrong though. Somehow my thumb is tense because of the weight. If I rest on the thumb's finger pad, i feel more natural, can vibrate, but shifting seems harder this way because it's easy for the violin to slip down from the pad. I have to get the knuckle of index finger to help when shifting. But because of this, vibration at shifting is gone.

[@zacharyjacob6329]

Hello, I am used to playing with a shoulder rest, and am now trying to switch to not using one, but because that forces the thumb/arm to hold the violin up more, my shoulder becomes very fatigued after a minute or two. Is this normal when first starting the switch to no shoulder rest?

[@vivolin6521]

Oh yes. Your muscles need to work harder. Also the thumb has more work to do and you will feel that. It takes time to build up the muscles. Depending on how much you practice it takes weeks or months. Don't overdo it, take breaks, avoid tensing up from fatigue and just know you have to build up muscle. :)

[@zacharyjacob6329]

Thank you so much for the quick and helpful response :) I have one more question: 1.) Is it necessary to use a cloth or sponge under the violin to help support it while holding it up, or is holding it with the arm/thumb sufficient?

[@vivolin6521]

@@zacharyjacob6329 I would not recommend a cloth or a sponge for support, the whole point of playing without a shoulder rest is to hold the violin in your hand. I use a suede leather cloth only to stop myself from sliding off the chinrest when I sweat.

[@edisrafehtable]

I find that without a SR the left arm gets tired fast. Is this normal and something that gets better over time?

[@vivolin6521]

Yes, your muscles have a bit more work to do without a SR. Just make sure you take enough breaks, as soon as you have built up your muscles your arm won't get tired so quickly.

[@edisrafehtable]

@@vivolin6521 Thank you so much! ❤

[@sm9846]

🙏🙏🙏🌹🌹🌹

[@vivolin6521]

Thank you!

[@seanleechild]

As a bonus, we burn a little bit more calories when we play without shorter rest, because our left shoulder is going up and down as needed, therefore getting a little more exercise. Would you agree?

[@vivolin6521]

Yes! And it gets better: we also train our left bizeps muscle more. :)

[@seanleechild]

@@vivolin6521 okay. theoretically, idealistically, philosophically, ditching the shoulder is best, but realistically it just doesn't work for everyone. Counter argument is that, shoulder rest is a genius modern invention to make playing more ergonomic. So why not use it? Why resist change if it helps us? Why stubbornly cling to the old ways?

[@paddlepower888]

@@seanleechild I’ve not seen any studies for either case. I suspect you may be playing Devils Advocate here. Whither the data? More isn’t better-more is just more. FYI, I’m between worlds now: played in grade school without. Played in college with. 20 of the last 22 years I’ve played with. Destination unknown.

[@seanleechild]

@@paddlepower888 What were your reasons for going back to use shoulder rest?

[@paddlepower888]

@@seanleechild After college, I didn't play until 22 years ago, so I didn't stop using a SR. When the pandemic began, I also stopped playing. I started again in April with a SR and was okay for a week. Some unknown factor changed to cause neck & shoulder pain, so how does one go back? I'm using a diy sling that keeps the violin at my neck and keeps it from sliding around. Can't say my violin sounds better/worse, but no pain and if this good fortune continues I won't complain ever again of a shoulder rest falling off due to whatever. Cheers! PS, I'm making a video featuring my sling. I'll upload to KZbin in a day or two. (It takes forever for my editing app to convert to MP4)

[@chrisebbesen5798]

Excellent. I AM GOING TO BE REINSTALLING MY SHOULDER REST AS I AM TAKING A THUMB CHALLENGE FROM ANOTHER TEACHER. THAT TEACHER INSISTS ON USING A SHOULDER REST TO AVOID THU MB. CHOCKING OF VIOLIN NECK. I MAY VERY WELL CHANGE BACK TO USING NO SHOULDER REST AS I BELIEVE THE TONE IS BETTER.

[@vivolin6521]

Yes, the tone is better but this sounds like a good strategy. Sort out your thumb first and then see how it goes without a shoulder rest later. Good luck!

[@gregsanford3848]

marry me ❤