Podcast 334 - James Park- The Doctor of Arrow Flight!

Dr. James Park is one of the Worlds leading sources of scientific research on arrow flight. Dr. Park has been awarded a PhD in Mechanical Engineering by Monash University in Melbourne, Australia and has 31 published research papers to prove it. His PhD work was dedicated to arrow dynamics and a lifelong study that covered the behavior of arrows during the bow’s power stroke and in free flight. He placed particular emphasis on compound bows, but much of the work is also directly applicable to recurve bows. James Park was a mentor of mine since i was first shooting for the U.S. Team. I stayed with James, studied with him and he was able to collect data from my shooting methods that actually predated where we were at in understanding it. James witnessed me break multiple records and win multiple gold medals internationally. He used some of the collected data and information with robotics and wind tunnels to make him an impressive coach for the Australian National Team. He is one of the few sources that I would report my personal most trusted data to. He is a real life projectile wizard and has done more arrow study with a shooting machine that anyone you can find on the internet, i guarantee it. I hope you enjoy this podcast and understand that through our trusted information you will improve in archery. Don’t get trapped in the arrow wormhole. This podcast can give you more than a lifetime of understanding in a few hours.
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[@jrhunt414]

First time watching your podcast. I started competition archery in 2000. Nobody shared information unless it was in private. You figured it out yourself or looked at other people’s setups. Sounds like everything you tried was stuff I also tried. Still have a pile of those short quick spin vanes. Going to college for mechanical engineering then made me understand everything I had learned from daily trial and error testing from arrow dynamics to stabilization. The things that really changed the game in archery was BCY 452X, X10 pro tour, and the Bee Stinger stabilizer. I’m still learning every day and still finding little things that I think nobody has thought of until I see it on other peoples equipment just to learn they were thinking the same thing. I learned a lot more when I started trying to build carbon hunting arrows. I still have some ACC -71s with 5” helical vanes and 75gr aluminum broadheads I thought would be good for long shots. Turns out they aren’t at all. I used to always hit high on deer and then I drew a free body diagram of a deer and realized they accelerate towards the ground. Thanks for sharing information and making it easier for people to get into the sport. I think a lot of what I learned when I was younger was just from arbitrarily picking the right things and getting lucky.

[@jjvangreunen5367]

Literally sums up todays issue in archery. Too many people focusing on the wrong stuff in stead of progressing in their archery career. Awesome info 🔥

[@nockonarchery]

Well said!

[@ValhallaHotBox]

Thanks again guys for saving us that travel to far down the rabbit hole instead of just practicing more. It’s easy to get carried away when so many people online try to influence your choices. Pretty soon you’re spending all your money on different fletching jigs, components, broadheads, and losing sleep about which configuration you should use. God bless you for what you do John Nock on brother

[@ronaldmcguire1581]

Been messing with this stuff for 55 years. Thanks for this discussion. Bottom line is grouping. When testing, I always save and take notes on my paper target. Everyone who cares should be watching this podcast.

[@gs637]

Great discussion, thanks Dr. James Park forgot more than most will ever know about arrow flight & archery in general. He knows a lot, and does not need to speak much.

[@russellanderson9644]

Felt like watching this was a question and answer between John and Dudley, with Dr. Park sometimes being allowed to confirm.

[@bibsmith2842]

Time on string!! The longer an arrow is on the string, the greater the chance of introducing human error.. An example, short brace height vs long brace height..there is a point where the arrow gets twitchy of course, hence "finding the middle ground" 😀

[@tommarymarking1579]

Very interesting to hear facts and engineered testing. The 4 reasons why we miss is very helpful; will definitely follow up on Dr. Parks publications. Arrow flight dynamics and fletch angles was enlightening. Good discussion. Maybe the guests could be allowed to comment more in the discussion. I appreciate John's passion for accuracy and scientific testing of products and modifications. Very enjoyable podcast.

[@douglashindenlang3207]

Hey John, I'm a very big fan and the information that you provide is amazing. My son is getting into competition archery he's left-handed and he's doing great. We watch a lot of your content and it's been a big help for both of us.

[@MainelyArchery]

I’d like to hear more from the good Doctor👍

[@raydenzel8573]

That was a great podcast with amazing amount of information. The right information. Keep up the great work John as always.

[@DigtoDef]

Excellent discussion, gentlemen. Thank you both for sharing.

[@rogerhook8002]

Enormously helpful! If knowledge is power, all listeners are more powerful.

[@nockonarchery]

Glad you think so!

[@chucknoidea]

We’re diving deep now boys. Good stuff 🙌

[@percussionalobsecration6178]

Thanks for all the recent info on arrow flight. They have been very helpful in weeding through all the different info one finds on the subject.

[@archerash6695]

I tune the bow to the arrow. proper spine for my draw length and weight, math wise. Once thats done I fletch. Then I tune again combining nock tuning and possible fine adjustments on the bow tune, but very rare.

[@Bearhawk_Life]

GREAT video and content. Obviously FOC was mentioned and alluded to, I am a neophyte in this world… What is the proper FOC? I am shooting a 427 grain arrow that has a 350 spine (65 lbs.)with a 50 grain titanium half out and a 100 grain point for an FOC of 15%, is this a good accurate arrow setup? Thanks in advance for your help.

[@Johnbobon]

I just re-fletched my three straight quickspins with four 6-degree left helical 3" Bohning X-vane shield cuts. Now I'm wondering if this was a mistake for longer range (60-70 yards). I did this because I saw Chris Bee's broadhead accuracy test, and even the ones that sprayed large groups for Chris came together with this fletch combination at the end of his test (though I'm not sure of Chris's helix angle). Maybe I'm over-thinking it (I usually do).

[@chrismacomber9727]

Great podcast I don't normally watch them during the day but got off work early wife went to work so I put it on the big screen..I have been thinking alot of the same but there just not that much content out there proving that that stuff don't matter ..thanks for the content keep.up.the good work

[@jonesboyshunting8673]

I haven't got to listen to the whole thing yet but i my opinion have a meeting with Dr. Park and Dr. Ashby on things like this. Dr. Ashby was concerned with flight of the arrow which Dr. Park has studied extensively then maybe everybody could come to the middle ground and be very effective on North American big game. That would be a lot of knowledge in one setting. Just food for thought. Great podcast so far John. Keep up the great work.

[@TMar129]

Another gold nugget. Thanx for all the work Dud

[@kevinanderson4610]

Good stuff here. I'm looking for that middle ground. John where can someone find the article you wrote explaining the ": hill method"?

[@royhoglund1322]

What a great podcast! Thanks for posting!

[@leroyjones769]

“Set up your bow, tune your arrows”. DANG… that says it all.

[@Arwndr]

Awesome stream! Thanks a lot! Very actuall questions and answers! ☀️🍀🌿✨👍🏻👌🏻🙌🏻🤝🏻 ))

[@waynestevenson9613]

John, What in your opinion is the most fletch angle that can be put on an arrow with a bitzenburger fletching tool anyway?

[@allen131313]

Let the man talk. He has a PHD in this stuff, we want to hear what James has to say.

[@nockonarchery]

You’re also able to read an of his papers that are published

[@robertdavis1102]

Great podcast! So informative. I have one question, when you are setting your offset for your vanes are you using the straight clamp or the helical clamp.

[@nockonarchery]

Helical now. Back then a straight camp. The bases of the vanes are different now and allow for it. Keep in mind we were fletching on like a 2mm tail

[@daveeagling9372]

Think I’m right saying John fletches right helical yet the arrows from most bows naturally spin left. Is this to stop broadheads coming loose or is to delay the rotation so the arrow has time to stabilise? Anybody?

[@extremefighter4]

How much of this applies to recurve and longbow hunting? We dont have the speed off the shelf so we tend to need to shoot a heavier arrows.

[@OutdoorMarlin35]

It would be an absolute dream to go spend the day shooting with Dudley!

[@marshallhaslett8717]

Just finished listening to this on Spotify. Thanks for all the good information!

[@nockonarchery]

Thanks for listening

[@kennylainhart7148]

Great stuff here!! I think the people at tac trigger your most recent videos!!!

[@balkanboy6509]

Great podcast, John you should check out Firenock lighted nocks. I think they have the best solution for micro diameter arrows, plus batteries are replaceable and by far they are brightest nocks on the market

[@johndenver5029]

Great content. Commenting for the algorithm

[@Terpedup925]

I feel like John could of done this podcast by himself 😂😂

[@jeremymeyer891]

I got 35 minutes into the podcast and the so called DR had only talked for 3 minutes. John.. bro your back has to be hurting from the patting😂😂😂

[@fastcamo]

I ….I….I…..I… I did this I did that….

[@mikeholland5997]

Dudley interviews Dudley Turning off at 8:00 in👎🏻

[@Terpedup925]

@@fastcamo don’t hate. I wasn’t hating. John gives good advice and wants to help ppl. Yea the other guy should of talked more but you can tell John is passionate about it. Plus talking on Skype is the worst way. Everyone talks over each other.

[@nockonarchery]

I was asked to lead. Some people aren’t just going to start on topics. I asked him to come on but also said I would lead with question you all had from previous post

[@donlucas3462]

great podcast ive watched it twice..

[@shanerRC]

I was hoping to hear some discussion about gyroscopic precession. Since when force is applied to a spinning object the reaction is about 90 degrees later in rotation, it seems to me that arrow rotation should lead to instability. I'm trying to figure out what I'm missing. Is the mass just so low that this effect is negligible?

[@nockonarchery]

I have asked him?!!

[@nockonarchery]

Here is James Response His arrow's rotational inertia is too low for this to be important. Regards, James

[@shanerRC]

@@nockonarchery Thanks for this Dud! I can't tell you how much I appreciate it!

[@chrismatthews228]

Great pod cast. My take away is to try fletching at 1 degree offset. Question for John about speed and arrow weight: could you do a video on the importance of speed as it relates to deer “jumping the string?” I feel as tho a lighter arrow gives you more advantage to hit vitals when a deer ducks when hearing the incoming arrow due it’s speed. But by how much if one arrow weighs 520 grains and the other is some massive 700 grains? Hope my idea and question makes sense.

[@EmmettSwearson]

I had the same question. So calculated it. Let’s assume the object were shooting at is a bowling bowl that is suspended in the air by a string. Now assume we are 50 yards away and the string is cut the moment the sound reaches the ball. Now assume we have 2 arrows, 1 is 400 grain traveling at 300 fps and the other is 500 grain traveling at 275 fps. By the time the 500 grain arrow reaches the bowling ball at 50 yards, the ball has fallen 5 more inches in comparison to how far the ball has fallen when the 400 grain arrow reaches the ball. I’m my opinion, speed matters when reading a shot at whitetail past 35-40 yards. Under that distance, the variation is just a couple inches. This is of course assuming the deer starts free falling the moment the sound reaches, which is an extreme assumption.

[@ВладимирПрименко-о5б]

I believe that the perfect flight of the arrow can be seen in two cases-longdistance broadhead or bareshaft..There are people who can shoot a bareshaft from 60m and these are people who really know what a perfect arrow flight is.Such shooting requires the adjustment of the bow and the shooting technique, which equally affect the flight of the arrow and are two sides of the same coin.

[@jons7e]

If the draw on your hunting rig is 30.5, what length arrow carbon to carbon do you use? Would you go longer with a fixed broadhead vs mechanical? And for TAC events, do you go with a shorter arrow?

[@nockonarchery]

Mine is 29.25 end of nock to cut when I shoot the 30.5”

[@brockmaes]

I can’t remember where he mentioned where his studies web address was? Could someone post it? I want to find his study on the vanes he mentioned and look at some others

[@PennNative]

John, How are you figuring out the degree of angle on your fletching jig? I have a blitzengerger as well. Its kinda crude in how you make adjustments on it. How do you find, degrees. Like between a 1 deg or a 2.5 degree. How do i figure that out?

[@nockonarchery]

They are crude and it’s not 100% but I’ve looked at enough to know

[@nockonarchery]

On our fletching wrap pad tool we have a diagram on it

[@PennNative]

@@nockonarchery Ah okay. Thank you. I think it’s time here you enter a new dimension in your teaching. You have really done well on the fundamentals and form. It’s time for some deep diving into tuning now. It looks like that may be where your new direction is going. Looking forward to it. 👍🏼

[@Nic-with-the-Beard]

@@PennNative If you need help figuring out the degree of vane tilt on your bitz, you can either take a small length of arrow and have it marked at various increments or you can buy the same tool from Lancaster which is marked from 0 to about 4 degrees and set your jig accordingly.

[@calvinfisher-]

Can I put to much flecthing angle on my arrows at 20 yards?

[@TheBackwoodshunter]

Love this kind of information John keep it coming. Leaving us hanging on the nocks pal 😂. ip 👍🏼 or 👎🏻

[@nockonarchery]

More to come!

[@jeromymixon11]

my question is how can there be a "spine line" of an arrow where it is supposedly "stiffer" when the carbon is spiral wrapped around a mandrel?

[@nockonarchery]

It depends on the carbon process. Some processes are like rolling up a paper towel. There a a spot where the sheet stops and is epoxied and then sanded to be flush. But not all carbon are that way. The most important thing is straightness and weight consistency

[@matthamilton0081]

Okay I have to know, what are these terrible knocks? And what is the company that makes them?

[@nockonarchery]

There’s actually a few of them out there. I don’t like talking negativity on a brand but it’s easy to check on your arrows. You want a stiff nock not a flexible one

[@matthamilton0081]

@@nockonarchery I get it Dudley you're a stand up guy, But if anybody else knows what nocks he's talking about can you let me know...

[@deadautomatic]

😮 I always thought the point of a podcast was to allow the guest to talk. Im not sure James ever completed a full sentence without being interrupted.

[@JamesBond-oc4gm]

What is the best distance to paper tune?

[@grantprice6803]

I bought a set of Easton axis match grade. The weight difference on 1 dozen arrows is 1.5 grains

[@nockonarchery]

That +\-.001 and you won’t notice it

[@bcpetersjr]

There was no point to have Dr. Park on, he barely talked. I'd love to hear more from him.

[@nockonarchery]

Some genius’s don’t just talk endlessly. I asked questions that were actually questions from all of you

[@casanovafrankenstein8875]

Id love to hear a podcast with Dr. James Park and Darrel "the rocket man" Barrnet. I hate anecdotal B.S.. Factual numbers, measurements and hard science is what im after. I understand most ppl find that boring they just want to be told what to do. Im not that way. I like to be in the weeds and really look into the numbers and the minutiae. Great discussion! 👍

[@DigtoDef]

It would be an honor.

[@larrysommerfeld4639]

Great information.

[@bofa314]

I had the same issue with the UV button - really wanted to like but the neck is so long I switched back to the nock 2 it

[@cjr4497]

Talk to the doctor of arrow death next, Dr. Ashby.

[@nockonarchery]

It would be nice if some of the old timers using recurves could actually use modern equipment. I think theories would be adjusted.

[@jackbuendgen389]

@@nockonarchery big time!

[@cjr4497]

@@nockonarchery I follow everyone. Your videos have taught me a lot about shooting, tuning, and working on my bows. The effort you put out to help people is not lost on me and, I appreciate it. I also follow the RF. He is a tad annoying, but I like his broadhead content. I have 27 years of archery and bow hunting under my belt so I know better than to go off the deep end based on the principles he espouses. I can see how people newer to archery can misinterpret his statements and the Ashby study resulting in them wondering why things didn't turn out how they expected. LOL, poor you as an accomplished guy and coach. I can only imagine how that makes you feel. Anyway, I think the Ashby Foundation is trying to do a compound study. I am sure all the factors will hold the same importance, but the magnitude of change will likely be lower. Personally, if I knew all I was going to encounter was pigs I would not hesitate to build a 650 ish grain 20% foc setup with a quality low angle solid broadhead because I have experience with 225 to 600 pound wild boars. However, I choose the happy medium because I can only afford one setup. I am at 14.5% FOC with a 455 grain arrow at 280fps. Works like a charm on deer, but I still have to be picky with shots on bigger pigs especially from a treestand.

[@ghaugsness]

Glad I talked with you at TAC about this topic; seemed like I lit a fire within on this topic and the content has been awesome! I'd like to know what you think about the beiter nocks in general since you brought those up on the podcast. Thanks for providing all of this content and reminded me I just need to go back to how I used to do certain things.

[@michaellacour7377]

I'm in Colllege again...

[@OrienMcbride]

I hope this doesn't have any side effects

[@brianlew9559]

Love ya Dud. Did you know there was a guest there? I swear there was another person in the interview but I never heard them speak. ;)

[@theroncorbett7991]

I wonder how I was ever able to kill anything with the Easton 2219’s I used to shoot?

[@nockonarchery]

Well that arrow killer slot of things and the FOC wasn’t a consideration. But back then all prefletch was 1degree and people killed and shot good

[@lawrencefranck9417]

Build arrows that fit your situation. 1:16:00 RF and Rocket man have a video that explains the center mass and air flow.

[@mikebarriga]

1:12:00

[@mrgifford87]

100%!! Hope Ranch "fairy" see's this and learns something!

[@Texaslivinoutdoors]

But rocket man said! 😂

[@jeremymeyer891]

The doctor said it himself... heavier arrows have less drift. Pretty sure he and the fairy man would have alot to agree with. I have never heard the fairy mention target archery.

[@jeremymeyer891]

I have never heard anyone correlate FOC with target archery...I think you are missing the point of FOC Johnny!

[@d500mag2]

@@jeremymeyer891 True. Don't they use arrows that have a larger diameter?

[@jeremymeyer891]

@d500mag2 who?

[@greekmaster1001]

Rip RANCH FAIRY LOL

[@mikebarriga]

47:45 thank me later.

[@michaellynch3172]

It’s hard to hear the incredible wealth of knowledge being given to us over Dudley’s determination to rip Troy. He clearly has not taken the time to watch all the Fairy content. But he will confidently say it’s garbage. Unfortunately a lot of people, including myself, just stop listening. Know the information you’re referring to before speaking on it so absolutely. Just sounds like a bunch of jealous attention seeking.

[@Texaslivinoutdoors]

But ranch fairy and rocket man said! 🙄

[@jackbuendgen389]

It's crazy to me how guys can drink the cool aid of heavy arrows when the best bowhunters in the world shoot 400-500 grain arrows. A happy medium is well... Happy!

[@Texaslivinoutdoors]

@@jackbuendgen389 he’s not wrong about heavy arrows but he’s only looking at 1 factor. I was shooting 550grain arrows when this heavy arrow thing first started but my pin gaps were terrible and I shot my 3D then I did animals.

[@Texaslivinoutdoors]

@@jackbuendgen389 ya my hunting arrows are around 435-455. No problem with pass threw a white tail or hog

[@Butcher411]

I thought he was ready to bury Ranch Fairy…🙄 He must have not dumbed it down enough for us stupid average” hunters

[@nockonarchery]

The rabbit hole is deep! I will dumb it down but also have to approach it from a scientific side as well

[@relleknoj]

Your guest did not get much time to talk.