POINT OF IMPACT SHIFTS: The Ugly Truth

Why you experience POI shifts, and what to do about it.
CHAPTERS
INTRO - 0:00
WHAT IS A POI SHIFT? - 1:41
USING SLING TENSION - 3:00
LOOSE SCREWS - 6:11
BARREL CONTACT - 7:32
MUZZLE DEVICES - 9:23
PRIMARY RECOIL DYNAMICS - 10:27
AMUNITION AND ENVIRONMENT - 14:15
BROKEN SCOPES - 16:37
SHOOTING TECHNIQUE - 18:13
BARREL CONDITION & QUALITY - 19:30
CONCLUSION - 23:37

[@swampbiologist]

Lots of variables contributing to POI shifts! Thanks for the overview!

[@JJGuccione]

All your VDO’s are fantastic but this one is especially fantastic. It also, in a shrouded way, defines accuracy expectations. Thanks Dog.

[@johnandrosemarywyatt977]

It's impressive how you are always able to break it down to the most common denominator. In this case, poi shift......why? You have alerted the shooter to get serious about solving the riddle. There are many possibilities but awareness of the issue is most important. I never miss one of your "classes". Thanks for what you do for for the hunting community. 👍

[@qinarizonaful]

Love this content!! 🙏🙏🙏 Takes 70 years of hard knocks learning you got from the old pros, puts it through what, 50 years of your own painful learned lessons, rejects Urban Legend, unifies both the Art and Science of the Ammo-Gun-Human-Environment interface that has to happen before EVERY round leaves the barrel! Thank you for making me THINK, for encouraging me to keep records, follow procedures and providing me a checklist to run for accuracy AND precision... waste no shot... pure gold!

[@Rucksack57]

I have had four scopes go bad on me in my life time. It will drive you nuts until you figure it out.

[@meh_tr0]

Thanks for the great video. I knew ammo and sling tension can cause a shift in POI but I didn't know a sling swivel could! I'm happy I know that now since I'm relatively young.(turning 23 tomorrow as I'm writing this)

[@edwardabrams4972]

DD just when after 60+ years of hunting reloading and collecting rifles you come out with some just awesome info that we may not know or have forgotten about😳 I am retired and spend way too much time thinking and talking about rifles just ask my 3 sons who hunt too! Every time I watch one of your videos I either learn something new or a new way to look at something I had never thought about! I am one of 5 generations of hunters and was heavily influenced my grandfather who was into rifle shooting in the military in the 30’s and 40’s and who had my father get most of their meat back in the depression and he got meat also for the lumber camps and miners too! You and I are brothers in arms and we always will be because of the special interest in rifles! I make my sons watch all your videos and they love everyone of them because they are so informative! Thanks for taking the time to make these videos for us old guys as well as the up and coming hunters we need to keep our sport alive and thrive🙌

[@user-wo2iw3kt8o]

Desert dog. I'm a hunter and my old winchesters has gotten it done since I've been 10 years old. And after getting discharged from the army in Alaska. I got 2 bull moose and bunch of caribou with it. I now live in Pennsylvania. Actually in the house I grew up in. And knock em dead is still working. Awsome video. God bless😊

[@bobd8553]

Long time viewer here. Your videos topics are constantly curing issues that I have experienced as a hunter. The topics in your presentations address so many issues that other content creators do not cover. You are gold! Please don’t stop making videos.

[@chipsterb4946]

Gus Fisher? If so, I had the pleasure of meeting the gentleman once at a gun show in Richmond, Virginia. He had forgotten more about M14s and Garrands than I can ever hope to know. P.S. I had great frustration with an M1A Scout. It would shoot 2-3-4 or even more, then the POI would move 1-3”. Finally I noticed a shiny spot on the back/lower right corner of the rail mount. Turned out the operating rod hit the rail mount every few shots. After replacing the rail mount that rifle delivered solid 5-shot 1” groups with hand loads.

[@ottokittel709]

excellent content! I have learned some of the information from the school of hard knocks of 70 plus years of shooting! the new modern shooters are blessed with information from very experienced person like you! all they have to do is listen, and take notes. dall sheep and goat hunting in Alaska as a resident was a big learning curve for me. no range finders, gps, just binos, and spotting scope and my old 300 win mag.

[@frankmccarthy2624]

I wished I watched this ten years ago. I learned all of this the hard way haha.

[@frankwright5528]

Masterful, Sir! Emphasizes shooting paper targets (less satisfaction, but they don't lie like steel). Keep a shooting diary or data book for each rifle. Wonder if using a collimator might reveal valuable info... Great channel!

[@loquat4440]

Thank you. This is the first time I have seen one of your videos and I plan to watch more of them

[@dennisclapp7527]

That was a masterful illumination of the subject. Thank you.

[@andreasgauckler3152]

The biggest problem is that action screw torque values are not always are stated in the manual of the rifle and the customer service of the manufacturers are not always very knowledgeable to provide those.

[@bronco686]

Thank you for another timely Master Class. Opening day for D6 is now 2 months away, and it’s time to re-zero my rifle. Your videos have been extremely helpful with troubleshooting not only my rifle, but me as a hand loader and a shooter as well.

[@alancranford3398]

I had three sources of Point-of-Impact (POI) shifts starting with Marine Corps Basic Training during the summer of 1975, reading the 27 Matt Helm novels, and research in precision shooting. The latter included books, videos, instructors, match competitors and personal experimentation. At Marine Corps boot camp (the MCRD San Diego live-fire took place at Camp Pendelton) the marksmanship cadre warned that the M16A1 rifle would shift point of impact when fired off a sandbag, fired with a tight sling, fired with no sling, when a bayonet was mounted, and would possibly shoot a foot high when a bipod was clamped on. We fired from prone, sitting, kneeling and standing, all with shooting jackets, tight slings, and shooting gloves (and wearing soft caps and just a cartridge belt with canteen and magazine pouch) and my summer session only fired at 200 yards and 300 yards after establishing a battlesight zero at 25 yards. We fired the course once for practice, jotting down any POI shifts from the zero in our rifle logs. We also used a six o'clock aiming point at 200 yards to put the group center in the center of the Able target and a center hold on the Able target at 300 yards to correct for trajectory. Between shooting stages, the sights were moved a few clicks according to the dope in our rifle logbooks to correct for firing position POI shifts. Except for rapid fire, all shots were inserting individual cartridges into the chamber by hand. Doing the same thing every time resulted in precision. We didn't use bipods or practice firing with fixed bayonets in boot camp. Donald Hamilton knew guns. His protagonist preferred to sight in his own rifles and used tricks such as making sure the action screws were tight and that the barrel was free-floated (no torque wrenches--they were uncommon in the Fifties through Nineties) and the scope was mounted solidly. Helm had issues with his agency armorers sighting off a sandbag bench rest when Helm found that his most practical long-range shooting position was usually prone or kneeling with a tight sling--in the Infiltrators (1984 page 435) the fictional secret agent found his borrowed rifle shot two feet low at 400 yards--it's fiction, but Hamilton painted a realistic 6 MOA shift between firing with a tight sling and firing off sandbags. This was explained on page 449. Again--realistic fiction. Do your own shooting to determine real-world results. My "real-world" experience with rifles adds zeroing rifles from a machine rest. A machine rest for a rifle MUST have a system to move with recoil or stocks can shatter. I didn't know about primary versus secondary recoil before this video--it was all recoil to me. Unfortunately, many rifle shooters do NOT have the marksmanship skills nor the mechanical knowledge to sight in their own rifles. Sometimes the marksmanship skill is good enough to stay on a 12" bullseye at 100 yards, but they get group-to-group POI shifts with one flyer in three shots (I used to compensate by having them fire five shot groups and discarding one or two that strayed from the main group). Barrel heating with light sporter barrels is a big problem with some rifles opening up a half-inch two-shot group to three inches on Round Three if I don't let the barrel cool down--or perhaps the flyer was from a cold bore and the two close shots were from a warm barrel. Sporter barrels really crap out when ten shots are fired in less than five minutes--the ten-shot group shifts point of impact and opens up the group. Solution--shoot on the formal range the same way you shoot while hunting. Shoot on the range the way you anticipate shooting under adverse conditions. Plugging a buck with one shot at 200 yards is different than a magazine dump into a charging bear at under 50 yards. I learned a few things from this video. Thanks.

[@necromancer1970]

Great video with great points. Over the years experienced some of them leaving me wondering/head scratching till i found out, or observing them with fellow guys@range/competition/outdoors - and here you really deliver the complete enumeration + explanation. Just excellent.👍 And btw - they are also rightfully valid for any use or kind of rifle (hunting/sport/competition/tactical, semiauto or bolt action, mass produced/custom, factory/hand loaded) - just the amount of each varies depending on what you use / what the circumstances are.

[@craigschaefer8764]

Excellent video. How true! Field conditions exacerbate this problem. The slope, or unevenness of the ground when using a bipod, or sitting position, are unavoidable problems. When shooting big game, if I can get closer, I do. No super long range shooting for me. Too many things can happen, and they do.

[@vanamee692]

This is got to be the best video I have ever seen on YT regardless of topic. You have done an outstanding job.

[@rickolson1738]

well done! all good points! it always amazed me how some folks never shoot till a week before hunting season. then can't understand why "the gun" doesn't shoot right! (perishable skills) nothing takes the place of practice! you can't buy the bills eye.

[@sammylacks4937]

This is one of the best subjects , most important that anyone could make a video on . Thank you.

[@paulsimmons5726]

DD, You’ve presented another great video chalked full of useful information and tips about today’s subject! POI shifts are aggravating for experienced shooters but they’re always the most discouraging issue for new shooters, thanks for sharing these insights and tips to help with POI shifts! Take care and be well!

[@nathanbailey9153]

This is another great video - you are making quite the library of reference videos we can point people to for solid information. I've already sent a couple people your way (one of the being in regards to your barrel cooler device - which I made and which works very well). Thanks for all the great videos and taking time to make them

[@shampton911]

Extremely informative video, thank you for taking the time to address this topic.

[@johnmarken3945]

Nicely done. Also great to see all these cool rifles. I wasted a lot of expensive ammo on a wandering zero on an Athlon scope till i figured out by swapping scopes that the Athlon was garbage out of the box. Thus swap scopes early when the suspicion comes.

[@BCBtrucks64]

always good to see you putting out the info DD 👍

[@whiskeykilmer1866]

Another excellent video, I always learn something. Thanks for the work you put into them.

[@tripplebeards3427]

My buddy bought a few boxes of Remington core locts a few years back. Was right when closed one of their ammo plants and transferred all their equipment to another facility. Anyways, his 2 boxes of 180 grain 30-06 core locts had four different colored primers in them. Each colored primer shot to a different POA. All grouped within 2 inches of each other at a 100 yards. Remington said that multi colored primers were a common practice. They ended up having him sending in the ammo and replacing it after of months of going back and forth on the phone and emails.

[@abbeybremner4162]

Great vid K9 Guru of the desert. Thanx so much for sharing your knowledge

[@NCWoodlandRoamer]

This was a very informative video. Have a great week Desert Dog!

[@stevemiller6044]

Thanks DD. Good review of all the mitigators.

[@waltski4375]

Valuable information, thank you!

[@misterlewgee8874]

Excellent again Poi shift can be a nightmare...foxing ..

[@q-man762]

Great point on isolating a bad scope, you can waste a lot of time and ammo figuring it out.

[@jegjr59]

Very good explanation of this tricky subject DD, you are a wealth of information. Thank you for sharing your knowledge with everyone, God bless you Sir Dog!

[@tunnelrabbit2625]

Excellent as always. Thanks. Learning lots and lots.

[@richardkramer1094]

Great video @DD!

[@johnmurray8267]

Thank DD you from Australia 🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺

[@rubenc7858]

Bro you have alot of nice rifles! Great videos very informative.

[@gunnarisaksson8677]

Thanks for this great video. I recognised almost everything. 🏆🏆🏆

[@user-wo2iw3kt8o]

Hi desert dog. Awsome m1. Mine is a springfield 1953.what an awsome lady. 😊

[@rapalaron6348]

Great video Buddy! 👍

[@StephenCooteNZ]

Thank you. Great food for thought. Best wishes from New Zealand.

[@caseycarpenter7043]

Another outstanding video. Cheers 🍺

[@fergusonlandmanagementweld1039]

I like how every new frame has a different "pew,pew,pew" on the desk. Nice flex!

[@desertdogoutdoors1113]

@@fergusonlandmanagementweld1039 It's my attempt to keep viewers engaged. It's also why I add slides during my presentation.

[@fergusonlandmanagementweld1039]

@desertdogoutdoors1113 big fan of them all! Also, I'm the guy who emailed you about the IMR-4166 powder that was breaking down and had the oil on the lid. Have you had anyone else contact you about that same issue?

[@sgtslippyfist6345]

Being aware of your copper fouling and maintaining it properly helps alot. Cleaning the same every time is important

[@Ronin12530]

Great analysis !

[@jordangouveia1863]

Good video, very interesting thx.

[@russhayes4882]

Now that was alot to take in but very helpful !

[@chickenhawknwc]

Thank you for your knowledge

[@mr.mr.3301]

Hunting in the south where it’s 90 degrees and 60 percent humidity. I’m curious about the the difference if I was shooting at 40 degrees with lower humidity of winter.

[@pseudopetrus]

Sling tension is a thing. Also even if you let your sling dangle, when shooting off hand, a slight wind will add movement, making it harder to get the trigger timing as you move across your intended impact point. I say move across your intended target because off hand, almost no one can hold a rifle steady on target, so I have a controlled movement, a repeated pattern that I control and know the timing of my trigger squeeze as my sights cross my intended impact point. I don't want the dangling sling adding movement.

[@fergusonlandmanagementweld1039]

I recently bought A C.A. Mesa Long Range in. 308 Win, long story short, it's the worst experience I have ever had with a rifle. The scope base keeps coming loose. When bore sighting, the POI was almost 3 feet off, once that was fixed, I loaded 168 Berger VLD Hunting, and then built some 175 of round and the POI was 10-12" off. It's been awful, and I'm regretting the purchase.

[@cwness4587]

Great video's I have seen some other POI video's. By far your's is the best and gives the best example of why. I also watch some of your other new ammo 6.8 as an example. I love your part the forum experts so true and you see that in every forum no matter what ir's about. All the new cartridges are just a sales ploy. Your's is not good enough buy this. Thanks for the truth.

[@jamesmooney5348]

Thanks DD.

[@terryholloway9930]

Great info thanks you sir know what you are talking about

[@johnreynolds6499]

Thanks for sharing

[@vasilynikitenko6291]

Окуенное видео, спасибо за детальный разбор темы с пояснениями и примерами!

[@markr5132]

Great video, I learned several bits of info as usual. You have so much info, it's great that you are documenting it with so many video's. It can be part of you legacy for generations!

[@bjcash4655]

Could you do a video on factory hunting rifles for North America ranking them on the build quality, barrel quality, action machining, action bedding and maybe trigger quality? No mods just out of the box accuracy other than maybe torquing the action screws, and with scope and rings being out of the equation? This was a great video btw. Thanks!

[@dansaver8247]

Good video.

[@jacquesbeliveau2716]

Cold bore ....hot bore .....impact will change if barrel is improperly stress relieved.

[@desertdogoutdoors1113]

@@jacquesbeliveau2716 As stated in the video; this covers most factory barrels.

[@misterlewgee8874]

For lighter bullets...or long range...wind can lift or drop a bullet depending on its left or right direction and twist direction.. The wind pushing with the twist will push bullet down...against the twist direction...lift it up.. Apparently

[@P0RTER9]

DDO, during the Loose Screws time stamp what is the make, model, caliber of the rifle. That is a good looking boom stick. Appreciate your time and clarity on these videos

[@user-fd6gm1ez5t]

You're exactly right

[@duck-n-cover477]

Sling tension is the worst thing to try on an AR with a swivel on the gas block.

[@larryblair4765]

Excellent video as always. Where did you get the bore cooler I seen in one of the pics on this video? I like that idea alot. Especially this time of year in Oklahoma. Don't take long to heat up barrels

[@desertdogoutdoors1113]

Subscribe to my channel and scroll through my videos. This is the recent barrel cooler video; kzbin.info/www/bejne/raiyiHqNg8SjmZIsi=YHd_uQoJCy30HpQa

[@larryblair4765]

@desertdogoutdoors1113 after I asked the question that video popped up!lol. You wanna know something weird, I have been subscribed and this is the second time it's Unsubscribed me. Thank you for your videos! Good info and never paid endorsement or infomercials!

[@BrianF.1969]

I have a 17 hmr that had a slight point of shift. Seemed to shift slightly to the right. I lapped the scope rings and it fixed the issue. I will be lapping all my rings going forward. Especially those with two piece bases.

[@8MM.PRC.HUNTER]

As always, DD, a good educational watch with your vids. No need to use the bullshit detector.

[@stevealexander8010]

Great video. I still wonder how ammo can cause a left right change of PoI. Vibration ?

[@briansmith2616]

Hello, excellent video! What brand torque driver are you using?

[@daveaver2804]

DD-you ever think about conducting a class (your area) with small groups? Scoped rifle. $$ of course.

[@jefferywilliams7687]

Still have a Camp Perry M1 Garand!

[@heinerobstad]

My tikkas poi changes 3-4 inches from a loosely tightened bipod cradle to a hard tigtened same bipod. On an mdt lss stock.

[@user-wo2iw3kt8o]

Desert dog h4350 is what I use. It's the best. Sometimes very hard to get. Imr 4350 is very similar.

[@Citizensoldier85-ik6er]

👏👏👏👏

[@tommykawasaki9676]

Before a rifle match, I would sight in my target rifle the day before, in the late afternoon with the sun behind me. Then the next morning, at 9:00 AM, with the sun now in front of me, I would start in on my sighters for the match. EVERY time, my scope was off. (Possibly classic rookie error ? I don’t know) Now I sight in the day before at 9:00AM & am having much better luck with my scope hitting my sighter target. I don’t know if it is the way light reacts in the scope, or if I am holding my head differently due to the glare or it could be both.

[@voyager5832]

Absolutely, position of the sun on the target makes a difference. A friend experimented by centering the crosshairs of a high- quality scope, on a solid rest, on the bullseye, in the A.M. As the angle of the sun on the target changed throughout the day, the crosshairs appeared to move on the bullseye.

[@tylerdurden6208]

I sight my M1G, and my M1A in standing / 200yds. Honestly call your shot at break, you can't go wrong.

[@oldnumber5866]

If you asked me what my screws were torque to I wouldn’t know because I would torque the scope screws with my fat wrench to the requirements of the manufacturer and blue locktite them. The actions screws torque to the requirements and not removed. If I did remove them then I would have to look up the specs all over again. As for zeroing, I always shoot off of shooting sticks. Not once out in the field did I ever had the opportunity to shoot prone, brush and grass would interfere with that while shooting sticks work on every occasion.

[@luislongoria6621]

I'm going to ammunition and environment offhand before checking any other factors. Temperature and humidity will affect engine performance in a similar manner. Heavy loads work better in humid environments

[@airgunslugslingers]

👍👍👍

[@mikeadler434]

👍👍

[@clifffromme6162]

My only rifle I have trouble with is a 340 savage in .222 rem. It groups good one day then another poi changes but groups good, have changed scopes and floated barrel, I think it's the barrel band. Can I shoot this rifle if I remove the barrel band ?

[@cordellej]

dont forget the carbon wrapped barrels . the carbon and steel dont react the same way at temp. the POI shift can be horrendous on those

[@ronald209]

Sighting, Breathing, and Squeezing the Trigger CORRECTLY... Are the chief reasons

[@paulstoyek381]

Hello Desert Dog.. I've heard of cold bore compensation tests..Do you perform them on your rifles?

[@mr.mr.3301]

I’ve wondered about free floated barrels. The Weatherby vanguard and the tikka lites are not free floated. Tikka has a small tab a few inches in front of the receiver and the vanguard I think lays in the stock. I’m thinking it’s because they both have thin barrels.

[@whiskeykilmer1866]

It's because they want to maximize profits like all companies.

[@lawerncemiller6557]

Primary recoil should be litigated when rifle is sited in as it happens before bullet leaves the barrel

[@djl0fne]

That’s a nice rifle what is it the first rifle in video

[@desertdogoutdoors1113]

@@djl0fne The first rifle in the video is an M1 Garand.

[@thomasburton3890]

No matter what position I am in i have always used sling tension

[@Ruteger100]

Hornady recently switched from small rifle primers to Large rifle primers in their 450 bushmaster cartridges. The did this without telling anyone. Hornady is not a trust worthy company. Check your cases and segregate them based on the primer size.

[@desertdogoutdoors1113]

I wasn't aware of that.

[@allen4758]

Cheap stocks ,, we call em milkjug stocks

[@scottstruif3939]

Can’t believe there’s someone else out there who uses a sling. Using one forces me to hold onto the rifle, minimizing the effect of primary recoil (AKA muzzle jump).

[@dwaynewalker986]

ok

[@kenpeters9807]

I really don’t care where you fot your rifle and shooting knowledge! I tuned in because of your head line. GET TO THE POINT1

[@sgtslippyfist6345]

Suppressors add to that horribly also lol

[@danielbridgewater3444]

It's a wonder anyone hits anything with the seemingly endless amount of variables that effect accuracy.

[@desertdogoutdoors1113]

@@danielbridgewater3444 In my experience, a large percentage of people CAN'T hit anything.

[@danielbridgewater3444]

@@desertdogoutdoors1113 lol... very true. My only advantage is a little bit of military training but listening to this channel & a couple others helps tremendously.

[@davidreed6779]

Cheap equipment and or not put together properly. Very simple