Point Source vs Line Array| KV2 Audio

George Krampera, one of the founders of KV2 Audio, explains the difference between point source and line array.

[@linandy1]

In the beginning, there was a box. Awesome !

[@Steveleebdutoit]

Interesting video. Also, if you drink every time he says "Know" you get messed up.

[@martijnvv8031]

LOL, someone should edit a video of him saying just "know"

[@Bass2TheFace420]

I would die of alcohol poisoning.. lol

[@dewinchy]

He is not actually saying "Know", but the czech "no", that is used as a question if you're still listening, like "right?", which is pretty annoying here 😃

[@AN-uv5ci]

He’s saying “no” and not “know” as in, “not true?”

[@Bob-pd9ge]

You know, no? That I know that you know, no? Or no? 😁

[@rodellalexander6540]

Very clear and concise explanation, they (KV2) do point source the way it should be done.👍👌

[@conorpodonoghue]

With all due respect it is a hopeless explanation! Maybe if you are already an expect in the area, you can fill in the blanks. But there are a lot of blanks - no?

[@steevests]

Delays and interferences provided by the bottom line array system do not affect drasticly the audience on high frequencies at the end of the venue/ mixing console. Both angles, and Fresnel circle theory affect the spl at a given point.

[@c.p.2807]

Was mir dieses Video zeigt ist, dass es Menschen gibt, die mit der analogen Welt aufgewachsen sind sind, sich darin vermutlich gut auskennen, aber vergessen haben sich weiterzubilden. Was das digitale Zeitalter angeht und was es ermöglicht, das ist an diesen Menschen völlig vorbeigegangen. Das ist wie, wenn heutzutage noch jemand mit Millimeter Papier und tusche technische Zeichnungen anfertigen würde oder 10 Prototypen baut um zu schauen welcher am besten funktioniert ohne es auch nur mal simuliert zu haben.

[@rabudja48]

Die Tonis lesen zu wenig Theorie, das Volk hört mit den Augen. Der Rest ist ein Kompromiss.

[@TimpBizkit]

When you NEED more than one speaker, the line array is usually the best way to try and combine them, although the Synergy horns probably do the horizontal splay/cluster better than any other speaker does, when angling at their -6dB points.

[@chasepe5762]

Danley is the way, not kv2. IMO

[@chasepe5762]

KV2 KV2 is still better than 90% of the systems out there dont get confused.

[@ArizerExtreme]

D&B L-Acoustic, Meyer, i know from exprience theses three are the three best of the best@@chasepe5762

[@rikwashburn827]

Dr Christian Heils “step theory” . Paper that started Line arrays future to dominate ALL performance systems to this day. AES ‘92. Vienna. He must have missed that . “Wavefront Sculpture Technology” And Danley is the point source king. Nothing against them for stadiums , just don’t make me tour with ‘em.🤪

[@panjacus9760]

you can hear "no" somehere between 10 Hz - 20 kHz

[@mykdubz128]

SO that basically means, knaw, that if you don't invite people to your event, knaw, you have better high frequency output, knaw... Since Corona this really is a valid point, knaw...

[@abel4776]

Some of the music played out there isn't worth line arraying it...

[@joserefe5950]

Good explanation .

[@MrEnginears]

I get what KV2 are doing, with each frequency source being the same size & shape as the others relative to their wave-lengths, in order to get the same dispersion characteristics on each freq band, but I thought that was a pretty poor explanation of it. I guess talking in a 2nd language didn't help though.

[@michaelfoss7064]

What he completely dodges is that when you need more SPL (at larger events) you would have to add more boxes of KV2. But than you are right back at the very 1st picture he drew except that the tweeters are in a different pattern. But you would still have phase cancelling throughout the system. It doesnt make sense.

[@caseykittel]

Wow. I am trying to set up 6 two way cabs (3 per side) on top or 2 big double 18” subs. I notice the interference effect playing pink noise as I move through the room. This lesson is really helpful. I am considering dropping down to 2 - 2-way tops per side and aiming each side across each other, so they horn load. Maybe this will reduce the comb effect. Right now each side is one one plane aiming to the idea listening position.

[@sudarshanipriyangika2]

So its mean you stack two arrays per side and move both side of them to dancing floor🤔

[@jakelappygames5970]

Lets all just ignore D&B Array Processing, and Ignore the fact that MLA is a thing or the fact that we are all aware that you have to time-align your system completely..........

[@karstenpe]

What they are not saying though is that in a linearray most people only hear one of the boxes (in the high frequencies). Because line array boxes have very narrow vertical dispersion. That being said - I would love to hear a VHD 5 system. I've mixed on KV2 systems before. And they sound pretty good.

[@mhp_loudspeakers3768]

Nope. Linearrays has only the 7-10 dispersion on high Frequency. The Low frequency about 1200-800 Hz are be a Ball. ( i habe a very Bad english sry)

[@gabbajon5654]

@@mhp_loudspeakers3768 and at these lower frequencies, they will summate and gain directivity.

[@morganbelle357]

What about directivity? I think this is a huge plus of line arrays. I see no chance of using single point sources in reverberant arenas...

[@jeszone]

Tq George.

[@hamarfourmusicproduction5548]

Despite the differences between line array and point source being dispersion or coverage,is there any other difference between line array and point source speakers with reference to the manufacture components eg inbuilt cross over unit,voice coil ?

[@Tuings]

Love how he didn't answer the question about loss over distance. It's still 6db per double distance for point source. And 3db for a line array.. ( in ideal conditions)

[@caseykittel]

I am guessing if his point source puts out many times the SPL he doesn’t have worry as much.

[@chasepe5762]

Yup, lots of details left out on this!!!

[@donaldspaulding6973]

His first illustration of the "pulse" showed equal signal strength at the later frequencies, which made me skeptical as well.

[@82sledge]

Hearing 2m tall LineArray/Columnt speaker with time difference of 2 ms (= 0,6 m) will be correct for the distance of 3 m. But this is not "large distance". For just 10 m far way, the time difference for 2 m LA would be less than 20 cm/0,6 ms and this is basically the minimum distance in larger venues (as the LA is almost always hanged up). For 20 m distance, the time difference would be 10 cm/0,3 ms; 40 m (which I would start to call "far enough") - 5 cm/150 microseconds.... so simple trigonometry will ruin George!s argumentation against LA's completely.... its obvious... Another lie is that "ideal linearray works at low frequencies, not above..." actually at low frequencies it behaves as point-source, only at higher freqencies (with respect to distance, frequency and height of the LA) you can expect line-array beavios. If you are far enough, every LA turns to point-source/ -6dB SPL per double distance (in the moment when Fresnel zone contains all loudspeakers). The lower the frequency, the closer is the transition point between point-source/line-array radiation (6 dB/3dB per double distance). LA doesn't sum at higher freqs? For true line array (column speakers), they did sum, especially at higher distances.... And the last - how would you EQ 0 dB@10kHz at 10 m, +6 dB@10kHz at 50 m and +12dB@10kHz at 100 m with pointsource? Through a dispersion pattern? Like adding +12 dB@10 kHz at angle just 1,5Deg difefrent from point with +6 dB@10kHz and 0dB just 10-15Deg @10kHz from the previous one?? ..."And can I see the dispersion pattern?"

[@marcpreacher6775]

So I guess with that being said, and assuming that is correct, George will soon be designing line array speakers 😃

[@iSkyline1]

Even small time difference can be detected and many of the selling-points for LA only hold true with oversimpified visualizations and in the steady-state-domain but music isn't steady-state. So LAs suck at transients, among other things, but are the most economical way of providing adequate sound to a large audience if you had to cover every gig with just one speakersystem in your inventory.

[@82sledge]

@@iSkyline1 If the "selling points" of LA are oversymplified, then this video is like stone-age imagination...

[@iSkyline1]

@@82sledge Wouldn't go that far, but I'm guessing that was hyperbole on your part. Of course there are many oversimplifications in this video about point sources as well and if we want to be really critical none of the KV2-systems are actual point sources either.

[@gabbajon5654]

well youd do it with a big old school pineapple cluster but they have all the same problems as a line array but without the benefits haha

[@SoundSystemDesigner]

I wonder if when he refers to line arrays, he means concert-J-arrays? I've used 3-meter line arrays in high RT60 environments with amazing results. You have to know how to put all listeners in the lobe, and yes, they don't have bristling high-end, but they work amazingly well due to their vertical control and their 1/r drop-off which way outperforms a point source in such environments. Basically, you get intelligibility for the sacrifice of some high-end. Most commercial and PA applications are fine if you can squeak from 10kHz out of your system.

[@caballopalido]

LINE ARRAYS ARE GARBAGE YOU WANT YOUR SOURCE COMING FROM A SINGLE POINT. IT MESSES UP THE WAVES DUDE YOU CAN'T HAVE LIKE 15 DIFFERENT SOURCES IN A LINE RIGHT NEXT TO EACH OTHER ACTING LIKE PLAYING THE SAME THING. YOU WANT ONE THING PLAYING THE SAME THING

[@c.p.2807]

​@@caballopalido Yes this one thing is possible with a proper DSP and measurements. Let's talk about coverage and do a comparison of LA and Point Source systems. Than you know why LAs are so popular

[@ladjkaoz]

I'm just a tech it's just my opinion... every system has PROS and CONS. we just have to pick the system that works better...😉

[@peteryousef5177]

please i need a video how to calculate how many speaker i can connect together in one sub ? the important information about line array before i buy it

[@interesting7906]

This is similar to the Pioneer XY-3B (the thing with the yellow plug)

[@thomasflatz8244]

From acoustical point of view he might be right, but not from business side: The point source must match exactly the requirements, you can't scale it. And this means for upscaling and downscaling. For today's rental business are line arrays just the best solution, with all advantages and disadvantages.

[@abel4776]

Any way to beef up the point source to heavier duty grade materials for business use?

[@gabbajon5654]

@@abel4776 its more about the coverage requirements. with a line array system you can buy loads of one box which then can create lots of different coverage shapes but a point source does what that point source does so you need to have a wide variety of different cabinets. Turbosound tried to make a versatile system with flashlight and floodlight but then youre still getting the phasing issues youd get with a line array, arguably to a greater extent.

[@abel4776]

@@gabbajon5654 Thanks.

[@josealmaguer5608]

I hear empty spaces whit line array or weak spots I heard this in many occasions

[@eric180db]

He partially understand what he is saying. A perfect line source does not act as multiple points interfering. Equal pressure forces beaming in the vertical axis and there will be no comb filtering just as you have with large electrostatic speakers. If spacing is much less than wavelength this happens (woofers/mids). If not, such as tweeter spacing, you need controlled directivity. A well controlled tweeter array in a line source or tightly spaced drivers fixes this.

[@arande3]

Right. I guess not all line arrays are a true line source, good point.

[@marcpreacher6775]

Iam starting to believe that George is right in many ways ( technically speaking ), but of all those years I have been using and listening to line array system, Iam happy and satisfied, so maybe what George pointed out can only be acknowledged by an audio analyzer and not human ears. Ever wonder why all those big festivals use line array system rather than point source system ??

[@williamweiss6128]

It's industry driven. Everybody doing the same thing.

[@marcpreacher6775]

@@williamweiss6128 do u mean the same thing is line array system ? If yes, its true Industry driven So what drives it exactly ? The market Why does the market love it ? Cause it works Millions & millions have been partying and dancing with line array system

[@Deaddinoproductions]

Line arrays are still the most logistically practical way of delivering fairly consistent volume and frequency response over a large area with relatively minor perceptible comb filtering issues when set up properly. They’re also easily scalable for different sized spaces and audiences. Many of his arguments about point source vs line array are technically valid, but not always practical to implement when it comes to real-world situations. He’s also really oversimplifying how line arrays work and not accounting for a lot of engineering that already goes into them to mitigate the problems he’s addressing.

[@marcpreacher6775]

@@Deaddinoproductions probably George is too proud to ever listen carefully to a proper line array system

[@michasy2221]

And then the danley soundlabs was born ,

[@tehnokratia6333]

point source and line array has different purpose. with line array you can cover 200m lenght and with point source that is imposible and that man draw straight line array and speak about sound in one point, line array build in angle not straight and all group of boxes have delay to prevent this situation, I think this video is only marketing for KV2 (kv2 is god for smale music festival (1500-2000 people) biger than that is for meyer sound, eaw, rcf, jbl, l-acoustics..... line array

[@Langeloudspeakers]

A line array has some advantages in terms of distance or throw, but can't match (obviously) the precision of a SINGLE point source. Watch the MEASURED impulse response of a line array SYSTEM (eight, ten or twenty units together) and the impulse of a SINGLE point source and you can easily depict the differences. Pretending high end reproduction at 30 meters from a sound system (point or line or whatever it may is) is like pretending to read a book from the same distance. When it comes to money and you wish that everybody during a concert had the impression to really be there a line array perhaps solves some problems that ignorance causes. If skill is involved it may be true that point sources do the job as well and consume far, far less energy. In 1986 we used to make parties with two A7-8G (yes Altec), and believe it or not 700 people had a good time even if the system was rated 75W on each channel. At that time DSP was not there yet and the use of subwoofers unusual. Today for 700 people a line array is used and, with subwoofers the consumption can reach 30kW...not cheap, not efficient and perhaps not even fun anymore. Today's manufacturers buy B&C components, use COMSOL to convince you they have understood everything, drain your bank account and there you are...why does it sound like crap when I am far? It may sounds good if the seller is really, really smart. By the way, just note that at 50 meters your system will lose 19,65 dB @ 14 kHz, and 39,30 dB at 100 meters (20°C, 30% RH)....so if the driver you are using is rated 30W at 100 meters it needs more than 30'000W to keep up with the physics (at least in theory)...there is no high end sound reproduction at 50 or 100 meter distance, unless background noise and crowd screams are now considered "part of the high end experience".

[@arande3]

They use curved arrays with directionality and EQ the boxes differently so that it's as flat as possible throughout the listening space. As long as the direct/reflect ratio is high it should sound the same from far away.

[@focadacian4120]

Delay lines.Where you have to much loss to compensate with eq,add delay lines.

[@Amigaudio]

So line arrays don’t work. That is probably why no one uses them in large venues anymore

[@mhp_loudspeakers3768]

He didn‘t say line arrays don‘t work. You don‘t undeestand the video

[@arthurbradford]

Listen to all of the people below cry out; "The King Does Have Clothes!"

[@user-mm2md6mj1k]

I can't tell if he's saying know or no.... Or now.... Or nome.... Or gnome...

[@michasy2221]

and then sa SynergyHorn was born

[@amgineacoustic]

I like the way he is ignoring so much. He is exaggerating the time issues. From what I see of KV2 they just same old shit different boxes.

[@vikassm]

Summary: Naaaaaaaaaaah.

[@user-mk5ew6yc6t]

He hasn't understood the line array itself...🤣

[@artysanmobile]

Interesting that the angles used in all arrays are completely disregarded. If you’re going to use a whiteboard, maybe you should consider the importance of accuracy. This cherry picking of facts to make an argument is antithetical to actual, real engineering. What this man is doing is known as “sales”, and he’s selling unsupportable nonsense.

[@leeknivek]

insults are not counter arguments

[@artysanmobile]

Kevin Keel Well, to argue would require some basis, rather than nonsense. I agree I should have avoided the insult. I get very annoyed at know-nothings presenting as engineers on KZbin. Reading the clueless, admiring comments thanking him for his plague of bad information makes me angry. If even one person is dissuaded from believing him, I’ll feel justified, if not vindicated.

[@TheGeischt]

@@artysanmobile have you ever heard a VHD system? no? then you should get out of your cellar and listen to some big boy toys.

[@davestalker]

no?

[@mattmoreira210]

Now

[@LFCEPrograme777]

That young man is disturbing...Every sentence the old man says...the young man says ...No!!! No!!!No!!!No!!! What is this No o no no

[@williamweiss6128]

Danley......

[@csabesz78]

Another good example of how to sell anything in the audio industry with pseudoscientific bullshit. I don't think at meyersound the engineers after this video shit their pants... True line arrays (curved arrays) just don't work like that and the inductance explanation is terrrrrrrible too.

[@mhp_loudspeakers3768]

Do you ever hear a KV2 Audio system ?

[@csabesz78]

@@mhp_loudspeakers3768 You can make good sound in many different ways and I don't question the quality of KV2 audio system, but this video has tons of misinformation. Let's start with a straight array. Staight arrays have very narrow, basically unusable dispersion. If you curve the array, the dispersion becomes wider and the freq & phase response better at any point (because it generates more spherical wavefront due to the curve). Software delay (super simple with digital technology) further can improve the freq & phase and tune to any venue.

[@jaydenvandermerwe8526]

NO.

[@gurratell7326]

This guy is terrible at explaining things.

[@pacosoundaruba]

Is it me that think he knows nothing about line arrays and point sources??

[@stuartmcdoniel6226]

Lots of issues with line arrays. Point source is still the way to go.

[@gustavoramirez-rangel5773]

yes

[@user-el6ro4ff3d]

Video Operator bad

[@pacosoundaruba]

What a blablabla story...

[@jhonnymercher3732]

Yeah every one knows you know better! :)

[@rollthetape88]

What a load of old crock. Snake oil BS

[@geickmei]

Someone tell him about the fusion time.

[@BojanBojovic]

Hmm, it seems like a clear propaganda on why their system is better than others, and some generic photos, little science.

[@simonspider]

How can a line array (speakers stacked on top of each other) not suffer interference between the drivers yet a system with drivers stacked on top each other and to the side does??