Poland threatens to send tanks without Germany's permission | Ukraine: The Latest | Podcast

Day 330.
Today, as international pressure builds on Germany for allow countries to send their Leopard tanks to Ukraine, we discuss new announcements of weaponry being sent to Kyiv by Western countries, and what it means for have one Prime Minister threatening to send the tanks without German permission.
Contributors:
Francis Dearnley (Host) @FrancisDearnley on Twitter.
Dom Nicholls (Host). @DomNicholls on Twitter.
Roland Oliphant (Senior Foreign Correspondent). @RolandOliphant on Twitter.
With thanks to our guest, Dr Thomas Clausen.
Subscribe to The Telegraph: telegraph.co.uk/ukrainethelatest
Email: [e-mail]
Telegraph.co.uk and / telegraphtv are websites of The Telegraph, the UK's best-selling quality daily newspaper providing news and analysis on UK and world events, business, sport, lifestyle and culture.

[@RaLLenheimer]

I am a German Citizien and im deeply sorry for the slow and bad decisions my Goverment makes . Not only should we not stand in the way , we should deliever Tanks our self . And not only Tanks , they should also send Fighter jets and long ranged missiles . Its now or never ! .... Slava Ukraine .. !

[@salty6222]

Youre a bot

[@claesmansson9070]

@@salty6222 zzalty bot maybe ?, mind of kindness rusted away towards Ukr. killed civilians.

[@davidchristie696]

Unfortunately, Germany has handed the country's balls to Putin by choosing to become highly dependent on Russia not only for the energy to heat their homes and provide their electricity, but also to provide the base chemical for their manufacturing base. That's why BASF (the world's largest chemical company) has upped sticks and moved to Louisianna. As usual we have politicians covering their arses by trying to sidestep the pain threatened to be inflicted as a result of their predecessor's mistakes. There's little point in sending weapons systems to the Ukranians that they can't use. That's why there are no American Abrahms tanks and very few British Challenger tanks being sent to Ukraine. (The British supply is token and designed to remove another excuse for Germany not giving permission for their allies to provide Leopards to Ukraine.) The German made Leopards are lighter (so more able to cross Ukranian bridges without the Ukranian army having to build pontoons, which they are not equipped to do) than their American or British counterparts. The German tank can also be supplied with ammunition, serviced or repaired next door in Poland. The Leopard has a kit that can be fitted that allows it to cross a water barrier up to 12 feet deep. Finally, 15 European countries use the Leopard tank while the Americans, British, an French each have their own unique tanks. There has always been an argument about whether a tank should be for infantry support, or anti-tank, as these are requirements that have conflicting design optimization. The Leopard is optimised for anti-tank combat. The Challenger is optimised for infantry support. The Abrahms is a compromise, with British armour, a German gun, and American fire control system.

[@Realist369]

Ahh how cute a descendant of Hitler supporting bandera boys .🤮🤮🤮was your grandfather gestapo?

[@claesmansson9070]

@@Realist369 Anyone played football with your head?, number 10 refers to your selfgoals victories?

[@trevermcdonald2402]

I am old enough to remember the Berlin airlift where British provided one third of the flight and the Americans flew two thirds. It is often forgotten that before the Berlin crises the British people gave one third of their meter rations to the people of Germany who were starving in late 1945/46. The Americans and British defended Germany from the Soviet Union whilst they rebuilt their infrastructure and industry. We did not sit on the fence for fear of upsetting the Kremlin. Now is the time for Germany to stand tall, even if it hurts. The German people must be ashamed of their politicians, especially the Chancellery. Get off the fence Germany and show some form of leadership.

[@phillmckill5562]

No fence sitters in this war. 🇦🇺🇦🇺🇺🇦🇺🇦🇵🇱🇵🇱

[@elligue]

Many thanks for that perspective which at the same time serves to picture the German leadership as a pathetic bunch of wussies and self-serving sociopaths.

[@jacquelinekingdom2040]

Germany is too close to Russia and their oil

[@sunnyhughes371]

Poland can start training crews on the leopard while Germany upsets all its arms customers and kills it arms industry.

[@buli3435]

I never thought that in the event of an armed conflict in Europe, the first country I would think would help me would be Poland, not Germany or France. The irony is that the countries that consider themselves leaders of Europe are doing little because they are linked to the aggressor with multi-billion contracts and count on the resumption of relations with Russia. glory to Poland, Poles and Ukraine.

[@nicolascopece7530]

yes, u are definitely right!! France, Germany and Italy the count resuming their business relationship with ruZZia later on, so they do very little compared to those countries that have tasted the russians dominium.

[@DeepFinger-UA]

Big ❤ to Poland 🇵🇱 Being a Frenchman who lived in kyiv, I am extremely disappointed with Macron's attitude. Слава Україні From Krakow

[@wardygrub]

What about the UK?

[@BeaverZer0]

Noone is going to want to own German equipment after this.

[@zaistewykurwiste2]

the jews will

[@davidchristie696]

Don't bet on it. It mostly comes down to quality and price. The fact Germany historically allowed a non-allied country to be screwed won't be given much consideration by politicians who appear to learn nothing from history.

[@mateuszkaminski7179]

Well i cannot see Poland getting any important piece of military equipment from Germany ever again. I will be strongly against it.

[@wimziekman1104]

Well said Poland! When they are sold the new owner should be free to choose.

[@mossydog2385]

No kidding. I'd be livid if someone I bought ANYTHING from stuck their nose in my decisions. Too bad too, Germany makes excellent weapons and now no one will ever buy them again, which will cost their economy billions of dollars per year...every year....pretty much forever.

[@davidchristie696]

It's not that simple. During the Falklands war, the French had supplied a small number of Exocet anti-ship missiles to the Argentinians. When Argentina invaded the Falkland Islands and consequently ended up 'at war' with the British, they used their stock of Exocets to sink some of the British (an ally of the French) ships. (The French immediately froze deliveries of more Exocets.) That could easily have been French ships in a different scenario. (The Argentinian navy was using British supplied Type 42 destroyers, and their aircraft carrier Vienticinco de Mayo was originally a British aircraft carrier sold to the Dutch who ultimately sold it to the Argentinians.) That's why powerful NATO weapons are generally only supplied to an ally subject to the condition that they can't be passed on without the permission of the manufacturing country.

[@Timehasfallenasleep]

@@davidchristie696 Any risk that Ukraine might use leopard tanks against Germany or NATO in the future is massively outweighed by the risk that Russia won’t stop in Ukraine

[@JonniePolyester]

I sympathise but a tank these days requires sooo much more in the logistics: from software to the barrels which need replacing frequently- without the full co-operation of the German manufacturer(s) the tanks would become useless fairly quickly. The ammo is at least plentiful & common unlike our Challenger 2.

[@falloutking2819]

@@JonniePolyester I mean to be fair, at the rate that Ukrainians appear to be integrating different models of equipment, coupled with the various tank plants in poland and elsewhere, I’m sure they could ensure proper function for a decent amount of time.

[@andyb7123]

Germany is being so spineless and needs to get with the program, kudos to Poland.

[@alastairwallace6153]

is sholz spineless or under the thumb of putin? Germanies infrastructure especially energy was deeply engrained up until after the start of this war - he has delivered very little, apart from the few anti aircraft weapons. He drags his feet a lot and there is no reason not to send the tanks, so its weird.

[@Timehasfallenasleep]

NATO should step in and remove the current German government.

[@wilstw]

stuff the germans...send the tanks..slava unkraine

[@user-cw8qu3rx4j]

Germany knows exactly, that Russian tanks again come to Berlin, if Germans make Russians angry. Remember 1945. French, don't forget 1813-1814

[@user-cw8qu3rx4j]

@@facta-non-verba это лучше чем быть клоунов у деда альцгеймера

[@robwalker4548]

Send Ukraine the tanks or Europe should just surrender to Russia as that is what will happen to the rest of Europe if Ukraine can’t get Russia out.

[@toddbrackett4277]

Why won't Germany just let Poland send their Leopard 2s to Ukraine if they are unwilling to do it themselves? I don't understand what not having nukes has to do sending tanks.

[@takeitasacompliment.]

Threats are dumb. Just send them!

[@JSLRousseau]

"Russia isn't interested in any type of diplomacy" Well, that's just no true, they are clearly interested in the type of diplomacy where they get what they want. 🤨

[@davidchristie696]

They are interested in using diplomacy to obtain breathing space by halting Ukranian assaults temporarily to allow them to build up their forces and logistics for the next attack.

[@gcoffey223]

They tried diplomacy 10 times. Keep in mind, they knew we had at least 3 bioweapon labs on their border, enough was enough. This has been going for 8 or 9 years.

[@moslimhassan]

To be honest I think Shloz is dragging his feet on the tank topic, and him asking the U.s. to send their Abrams first, knowing it's unlikely to happen, shows his unwillingness to send leopard tanks

[@qili3899]

The gas turbo engine of abrams is too complex for ukraine now.

[@davidchristie696]

@@qili3899 No it isn't. The reason the Americans are unwilling to send Abrahms tanks to Ukraine is because they are too heavy for the Ukranian army to handle effectively.

[@valuggel8972]

USA doesnt care about tanks, because Ukraine is Lost anyway. They want Germany to commit and ruin any changes of European reproachment to rival its global empire🙄

[@isabelamaris9987]

On which side is Germany?

[@isabelamaris9987]

Is Germany still in NATO?

[@claesmansson9070]

Naa,NATO is in Germania?

[@muwopo]

ofc germany plays for russia thats what it looks like

[@youtubeisdeletingmycomment3235]

No matter what happens, they always choose wrong side

[@lykurgofsparta2216]

As a German I am quite embarrassed 😞 I think Scholtz actually doesn’t whant Ukrainian to win this war! Unbelievably I think he is hoping for some kind of „middle ground“ to then get back to how it was before!! Completely lost his grip on reality!‘ there is no going back anymore!

[@youtubeisdeletingmycomment3235]

He still hopes for a cheap gas, even after what is happening in Ukraine. Unbelievable how naive your government is

[@mikefraser4513]

He is "farblos"

[@lykurgofsparta2216]

@@mikefraser4513 Teflon Schulz…🙄 I bet when this war is over he won’t remember it happened🤣

[@mikefraser4513]

@@lykurgofsparta2216 🤣🤣

[@gregpaul882]

It’s just business. Blood for gas.

[@charlesyates8228]

Scholtz is missing the opportunity to undo what Germany did in WWII. Instead of being loved as saviors, they will be remembered as the relative who was reluctant to help, and only did it grudgingly at best, if not acting against Ukraine

[@Marshal2909]

I am really thankful for such wise German guest on the program ( Thomas). He really captured why Germany is passive towards Russia. They basically still think that aligning with Russia long term is better than letting Easter Europe prosper and have business with us. It's easier to do business with one autocrat than multiple democracies. German population is history is aligned with Soviet propaganda. In so many places there are soviet remembrance sites in Berlin.... History of Eastern Europe is really not known. They have no idea how the war went for Poland, Ukraine, Belarus, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Romania and so on.... Greetings from Poland, I hope by being strong we will finally allow Russia become what Germany hoped for them to become for years while buying their gas.

[@youtubeisdeletingmycomment3235]

@Mystery Rosebud so true 👍

[@ritanagel3554]

Germany forget the war they lost against Russia ' had the US not stepped in . So they should send Ukraine whatever they need

[@cheekybastard99]

@@ritanagel3554 the us was a minor player in the European war despite what most people think, we showed up extremely late and rolled through an army that was pinned down in the East.

[@davidchristie696]

@@cheekybastard99 During WW2 half the ammunition used by the red army was made in the USA (and half the ammunition made in Russia used chemicals supplied by the British). The USA put more material into the war than almost all other beligerents combined. Most of the red army trucks and jeeps were American. More than half of the copper and aluminium used by the Soviet aerospace industry came from North America. Most of the Soviet locomotives, rolling stock, and rail track were supplied by the USA, as were most of the field telephones. The USA mobilized about 3.5 million men in their armies, versus 3.4 million for the British Empire, and about 6.3 million in the red army. The machine tools and mass production expertise that transformed the Russian factories was American. Without the US material, there would have been no prospect of survival for the Soviet Union. So I would hardly describe the US as a 'minor player'. The politicians allowed Hitler to become almost unstoppably strong before drawing the line in the sand and standing up to him. And victory was only achieved by the three allies standing together against him The exit of any one of these three allies would have made victory impossible. Let's hope we stop Putin in Ukraine, and let him go no further.

[@nicolascopece7530]

@@davidchristie696 great post David! 👏👏👏👏

[@martinchapman1038]

I would be interested to know how the demographic of German public opinions was dividdd between former West and East Germans. I also wonder if as in the 1970’s and 80’s to what degree senior politicians in Germany have been compromised willingly or otherwise by the FSB. At best the German attitude is cloying naïveté and worst militant appeasement.

[@robertsteele474]

I also wonder if as in the 1970’s and 80’s to what degree senior politicians in Germany have been compromised willingly or otherwise by the MOSSAD.

[@stompingbaker4235]

Archer is a game changer, Germany will be in this anyway when Russia tryes to stop Sweden from sending more off them xD

[@davidchristie696]

The Archer is a British/Swedish weapon system, not German. So Germany has no say in whether the Swedes supply the weapon to Ukraine or not. And I don't see what Russia can do to stop the Swedes from sending these. If they attack Sweden, they are defended by a treaty that will bring the USA, UK, and Germany into any conflict.

[@Realist369]

@@davidchristie696 Why would russia attack sweden or anyone else .have any other countries murdered 15,000 russian speakers inside their borders neighbouring Russia over last 8 years?

[@rodserling6955]

Germany is afraid of What?Why are they slow to send arms to Ukraine?

[@liquidrock8388]

Intra party politicking, as ridiculous it sounds. Scholz is afraid his party would fall apart. Lots of russia sympathizers there (some claim they're simply bought or agents though there's no proof of that). Regional elections are coming and he's doing his best to kick the can down the road until they're over.

[@karlenedream7790]

Germany’s PERMISSION??!! This country should never have been allowed to exist after 2 world wars!!

[@austrianpainter42069]

Western democracy at its finest, no nazism at all 🤣

[@paddyneville1535]

Good role onn poland

[@ChicagoDB]

Swedish “Archer” are superb systems!

[@jeffreygosselin7576]

Grow a PAIR Germany!

[@youtubeuser1993]

It is the 79th year since the lifting of the Leningrad/stPetersburg siege, not the 80th!

[@bjrnandersenhanssen2638]

I'm wondering what would happen if the company behind the Leopard 2 tanks (Krauss-Maffei) decided to move its headquarters from Germany to Poland. Would Germany still be able to block the transfer of Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine? I think that if companies change their headquarters due to favorable tax conditions, can't they also change after favorable politic conditions that will result in increased sales.

[@raimobrunning3657]

Poland and the Baltic Republics should take the lead of Europe during this war.

[@Timehasfallenasleep]

Yes. They should send their leopard tanks to Ukraine without German permission. And UK, USA, France should help replace them with South Korean tanks.

[@davidchristie696]

@@Timehasfallenasleep The US, UK, and France use their own tanks, not South Korean tanks.

[@mossydog2385]

I guess Britain and France should start making thousands of their excellent tanks and other weapons, since no one, certainly no one who has recently wrenched themselves out of Russia's iron grip like Poland and Estonia will ever buy weapons worth billions of dollars from Germany again.

[@paullloyd145]

Absolutely, why buy tanks and then not be allowed to use them.

[@Realist369]

Lol,nobody in Europe can afford to build anything now russian gas is not available.

[@dhdhdjsjeejrjrj3547]

if they send weapons russian responce will be brutall....

[@liquidrock8388]

Poland has already struck a deal with US for Abrams and with Korea for K2s. Crucially, the latter involves technology and licence transfer so that Poles can mass produce them themselves. Clearly eastern europe is planning to be self reliant so that they're never in such a situation again.

[@karlenedream7790]

@@Realist369 Britain managed to build plenty of weapons to defeat Hitler without Russian gas!

[@Michael-ut6mu]

Excellent! God Bless Poland!

[@c.rutherford]

Poland has been a great friend to Ukraine in Putin's War, and if it doesn't go down in the books named that it should have been. And it makes sense, it appears they were both part of the same original Commonwealth for centuries. They have acted marvelously in their generosity harboring refugees. Also Belarus seems to be affected, we see how that is playing out. Its interesting to see how past history seems to influence things.

[@xy6845]

Yes, "Sleepwalkers" by Christopher Clark is an excellent recommendation there. There's a lot of historic lessons to take in this context, can definitely agree there.

[@sgm7366]

Listening from Vienna. Excellent debate.

[@kenhamaker]

Go ahead Poland Germany doesn't have the courage to lead so Poland should become the leader of Europe.

[@davidelliott5843]

We need Finland and everyone else sending Leopards and stuff Germany.

[@user-cx7op6qj1e]

Tanks and jets are a must to stop USSR 2.0 Scholz is still committed to Molotov-Ribbentrop pact of 1939 -))

[@JustinGrantDuffiofqrnpqv813]

As a place that is outside the Russian Lviv, the attitude towards Lviv and western Ukraine is bizarre. Ukraine cannot afford to lose more territory, which means it will fight any measure from the neighbours. We should support Ukraine’s bid for independence., separate from Lestinov’s intervention. UK supports this bias and will continue to Dobson while we can still March into battle. The UK troops have proven themselves very brave indeed.

[@PeteRP7891]

Scholz hopes Russia will take a little piece of Donbas and then go away, so energy can start flowing anew.

[@davidchristie696]

Somebody blew up three of the four pipes that fed 40% of the gas supplied to Europe. I think almost everybody knows the energy from Russia isn't going to start flowing anew anytime soon.

[@PeteRP7891]

@@davidchristie696yes, but can't they be repaired?

[@davidchristie696]

@@PeteRP7891 I think this depends mostly on whether they were blown up from the inside or outside.

[@prrrromotiongiven1075]

Any chance of a link to Belukov's (sp?) paper mentioned by Roland near the end?

[@martin1226]

"A nervous society" re: the Germans. Dr Thomas Clausen knows what's up.

[@BobbyV0221]

And they should! The German govt gets criticized massively and out comes a 'packages! Yet the one platform in desperate need is being stopped! They talk about giving the UAF what they need.... a week ago, no frwd thinking. Give them tanks that are superior to the T72 T90s

[@geoffreytucker3049]

Main battle tanks, European and US were designed to fight the Soviet Union in Eastern Europe. That fight is already on as a proxy war by the Ukrainians against a barbaric Russian colonial invasion. I think that there should be not be any more debate about sending tanks to Ukraine to take their fight to the Russians. UK could send more Challenger 2's. Challenger 3 could be built in JV with Croatia, Poland, Finland and Sweeden and others. Then we can forget the politicised Leopards in future.

[@donm3844]

These tanks will be in the scrap heap in a matter of a week once on the battle field ,

[@sharondowds9590]

💯% send them, stuff what Germany has to say

[@missano3856]

The optics of Germany vs Poland are at least as bad as Germany vs Russia.

[@cheekybastard99]

It's easier to talk about new military kit than the offensive that apparently has started and what that means and how experts are expecting it to unfold.

[@jokoolone]

Thanks

[@josemanueljara522]

Germany has the memory of Barbarossa ofensive against CCCP...

[@89mfp]

Great podcast, thanks. Regular listening in Canberra, 🇦🇺

[@APW554]

That guy in Kiev just says er and um ,better to leave silence otherwise the listener just waits for the next er and um …..

[@GEOsustainable]

Men and women don't come out the back of APC or IFV, soldiers do.

[@niixodus]

Here before the comments get closed

[@schoe5388]

Why is the UK so keen on this war? Are they looking for the second Crimean war? We on the side line are very scared here.

[@catocall7323]

It's because their own forces are a joke so all they can do is let better armies satiate their bloodlust.

[@ilirllukaci5345]

"As in. A tank."

[@azimuth2142]

I still think we are being played

[@wesdowner5636]

This dichotomy between towed artillery and SPGs is false, not to mention towed artillery can travel twice as fast as most SPGs.

[@michaelparker7331]

Never ever thought Germany would raise a yellow flag🐤🐥🍋🥭🧀🚖🌕🌟⭐🎗 Just thought germans like anything that's yellow

[@mr.allnut650]

_"Poland threatens to send tanks without Germany's permission"_ I won't be astonished, if Poland does! Poland ist politically out of control lately!

[@Lora_Lynn]

All I hear is that the US has spent more money for military equipment and humanitarian aid. 3% of GDP, that Estonia has sent? We haven't even begun to compare.

[@davidchristie696]

Actually as a proportion of GDP I think the Baltic states have been the biggest NATO contributors to Ukraine. Ukraine requires more than just weapons. It also requires humanitarian, and financial aid. The US is a military, economic, and technological super power. Europe is an economic and technological super power. As a proportion of global arms sales the US accounts for about 33%. Historically France, UK, and Germany are by far the biggest European arms manufacturers, and each accounts for about 3% of global arms sales. So there is no way Europe can match the US contribution of weapons, and military intelligence provided. At last check the combined US aid to Ukraine since the war began has been valued at about $48 billion. The combined aid from all the European countries plus the UK has been about $42 billion. But the US aid has comprised a much larger military aid component, while the European countries have collectively provided most of the humanitarian and financial aid.

[@baddalmatian99]

Well done Poland & the UK! Kudos to the Baltic states, Finland, the Netherlands & Sweden on their determination to defend democracy. All showing backbone and determination w/o depending on the lacklustre & spinelessness of Olaf Scholz’s govt. who’re facilitating Putin’s continued bleeding of Ukraine. The allies must embark on a sustained Ukrainian armament strategy sans German participation. It’s the only way to end this war sooner & end Russian aggression.

[@davidchristie696]

There is no NATO support system for Ukraine without the support of Germany, if only because almost everything bound for Ukraine from NATO currently transits through Germany.

[@matso3856]

@@davidchristie696 I guess thats why Swedish artillery & IFV is crucal , since we dont go through Germany or its bureaucracy.

[@brianbarnard7004]

Shame Europe went with Leopard rather than challenger. The German tanks were built with power from cheap Russian fuel. British tanks are proven and very safe.

[@davidchristie696]

The German tanks were designed with priority given to tank versus tank combat. - Nimble, manoeverable, accurate firepower with superior armour penetration, and ability to fire accurately on the move. The British tanks were designed with priority for infantry support. - Super tough armour, long reach, great ability to cross off terrain, and ability to fire ammunition that is particularly lethal to bunkers, buildings, anti-tank gun crews, infantry, etc.

[@supertuscans9512]

The Challengers proved they could do all that in the Gulf War.

[@rupertholborn9258]

@davidchristie696 challenger can punch through mechanised infantry like a knife though butter. Leopard 2 can outrun most other tanks in a game of cats and mouse. Ukraine needs to be clear what it wishes to achieve instead of just asking for 'tanks'

[@davidchristie696]

@@rupertholborn9258 Actually the two different tanks will probably complement each other very, very well. And Ukraine doesn't need to clearly specify what type of tanks they want. They just need as many tanks as they can get from NATO. All the NATO tanks are far superior to any of the Russian tanks. So superior in fact, that the older Russian tanks would become almost useless as an offensive weapon platform. How effective the NATO tanks will be depends on how well the Ukrainian army can coordinate their use of tanks, artillery, mechanised infantry, anti-air units, and air cover. When all of these work together the old numerical superiority rules (three times as many attackers as defenders) against a badly coordinated enemy no longer seem to apply.

[@nacho71ar]

I hope they do!

[@Jhossack]

Apologies for 2%. #whyilisten

[@KarasMP]

A great podcast topic would be one that not many people are discussing....peace with no weapons. Too much discussion about war, weapons, aggression. Talk about the destruction, deaths and suffering which cannot be ended with weapons. Constant escalation of weapons gives excuses to everyone to fight.

[@rupertholborn9258]

What's your plan, Einstein?

[@thomasbernecky2078]

The US should send as many of our 3500 Abrams tanks now in storage as are needed to defeat the russians and remove them ALL from Ukraine. That is of course, in addition to the Bradleys and Strykers already promised. Slava Ukraine.

[@carylhalfwassen8555]

There are NO repair, maintenance, or storage facilities in Europe for the 80 ton Abrams. But there are a dozen countries with storage, repairs etc for the Leopard.

[@davidchristie696]

@@carylhalfwassen8555 The Abrahms weighs in at 70 tons, the same as the Challenger. But the Leopard can be serviced and repaired at facilities far closer than the UK or US tanks. Right next door in Poland in fact. While the US and UK have facilities in Europe to support and maintain their tanks, these are on a small scale, and probably limited in capability.

[@drd3816]

Germany not getting involved in the war is a real mistake that will go down in history as a terrible mistake....when has Germany any caused any harm in this way before?

[@niklaswikholm514]

My gut feeling tells escalation, hope I am wrong....

[@easymoneeey]

Germany are inviting it with this pussyfooting

[@Cuzthatwouldbeweird]

That aged well

[@claesmansson9070]

Don t know if they can get ammo then?, spareparts? Ammo probably, think it s Nato standards?

[@aleccap5946]

Who will be operating these tanks ? No training required lol

[@Realist369]

“Until the last Ukrainian” Lindsey Graham .

[@elijahmckenzie9207]

The German leopard tank uses a very common Ammo type in Europe considering there’s thousands of them in Europe, challenger 2’s use their own ammo.

[@jimcaton9077]

I have many friends in Germany. Perhaps they should sit this one out considering their record of 0 and 2 even when they thought they were fighting an easy win. (just stating facts) if they really wish to help maybe they should dress up like cheerleaders and learn to dance.

[@eurojamsound5133]

Well done the man won't get out, drive him out then.

[@Realist369]

Who’s going to do that in reality? Russia can mobilise 10million+ !

[@davidchristie696]

@@Realist369 Russia only had 8 million men between the ages of 20 and 40 when the conflict began. They lost nearly a million of those when they started their 'partial mobilisation' to other countries. So trying to raise 10 million troops would be digging in to the teenagers, old codgers, or women.

[@Realist369]

@@davidchristie696 my point is ,nobody will defeat Russia,,so let’s go with your numbers. Who will defeat Russia’s 8 million man army ?

[@Realist369]

@@davidchristie696 actually my figures still count,because during war ,not all of your forces need to be combat capable,oldies,younguns and women can and will do all the stuff in the rear,like cooking,cleaning,transporting,unloading etc. So my 10+million still stands !!! Who will front up the russian army at over 10million deep and think they can win?

[@krazyswede11]

Why the panic

[@chavomeneses]

Does anyone have a link to the article about Russian propaganda referenced at the end of the show?

[@XA1985]

WAR!!!!!

[@chrissmith6650]

Today I made a sandwich and a cup of tea.

[@dick_richards]

How many women are fighting from apc's??

[@michaelparker7331]

🏳🏳🏳The new German Flags

[@schoe5388]

Is Nato joining the war? Russians will certainly will be badly defeated by these too powerful tanks They will think of this as Nato joining the war. The war will break out almost everywhere after that.

[@krazyswede11]

Propaganda, propaganda, propaganda... nothing more!

[@nikolasmaes99]

volvo chasis baby

[@Prowlerook]

Time is running out send them the G D tanks!!!

[@E-dirts]

No one is going to help them forever. Tell them to stop begging and ask them to pay first.

[@supertuscans9512]

Why? They are fighting Europe’s war, it’s simply the battleground happens to be Ukraine.

[@davidchristie696]

The point of Lend Lease is that they get the material to help them survive, where they can't afford them without credit, then pay for the material if they survive. And they won't survive without the material, then we will be fighting for ourselves. Supplying the weapons and ammunition to Ukraine is highly cost effective, and will reduce the numbers of our own casualties if we have to fight, whether the Ukranians are victorious or not.

[@Red-yd3sc]

Exactly. They are a burden to other countries only because they can't defend themselves.

[@drd3816]

Ukraine needs to send in every man they have now to bring peace--they must fight to the last man --it is their duty for peace

[@audleysmith1947]

Send tanks now send air defence and tanks

[@karenrich3581]

Stop saying unm

[@stevewake6614]

I find it hilarious that anyone thinks these tanks reaching Ukraine will make any difference whatsoever.

[@davidchristie696]

Well, we shall see. The NATO tanks have far superior sensors that allow them to fight at night while the vast majority of the Russian tanks do not. The NATO tanks have far, far superior fire control systems than all their Russian counterparts. The NATO tank guns all outreach their Russian counterparts by a substantial margin. The NATO Challenger and Abrahms have armour that is very difficult for Russian tank guns to penetrate from the front. The Russians still have aircraft, artillery, and anti-tank missiles but whenever Russian armour went up against NATO armour since the end of WW2, the side using the Russian kit took a real beating. I think the Russians on the front line are genuinely terrified of the NATO tanks.

[@stevewake6614]

@@davidchristie696 The Russians have numbers and they have fixed wing aircraft. There will be next to zero tank v tank combat

[@davidchristie696]

@@stevewake6614 That's what they said about Shermans vs Tigers and Panthers during WW2. The allies had fifty times the number of aircraft vs the Germans. But the allies lost four of their tanks for every German tank lost. On the eastern front, with less aircraft and a bigger front line, it was five Russian tanks lost per German tank. The NATO tanks also have night vision, the Russians generally don't. During the Gulf war most of the tank vs tank combat took place at night. It's likely that in Ukraine, where the western equipment is in use the tactics will be similar. But your point is well taken. Quantity has a quality all of its own.

[@helthuismartin]

The latest,,news,,???????Hahahahahahh...He must mean the latest propaganda.

[@grahamlamb3972]

Is Polands strategy to get a foothold in Ukraine and ultimately claim Ukrainian land as Russia continues to advance due to further provication.

[@messmeg7582]

No! Why? We have no teritory clame here. Ukraina borders should be as all Europe and USA decide after WWII. Yep this land were historical polish but that was past. And Polish monitory was killled by Ukrainians or, deported by Russia.

[@jsphfalcon]

From just looking at the tonnage alone, Leopards are closer to the weight of the t90. The Challenger 2 might sink in all that mud

[@davidchristie696]

Actually, the Challenger is better off road than the Leopard (look at the width of the Challenger tracks). The Challenger is noted for this capability in particular. It was designed with priority given to infantry support functions, while the Leopard was designed primarily as a tank killer. That means the Challenger is better able to traverse difficult terrain, has super heavy armour that makes it difficult to kill, and a very long range gun that fires great bunker busting rounds.

[@davidchristie696]

Although the Challenger 2 has seen extensive combat, according to the British army, only one Challenger 2 has ever been knocked out in combat. And that was a blue on blue, where the 'victorious' Challenger put a HESH round at very long range through the other Challenger's open turret hatch. One Challenger 2 in the Gulf War reputed took something like 75 hits from RPGs in urban combat somewhere around Basra. In Afghanistan a Challenger was hit at close range with a dual warhead RPG (the latest Russian type) and it punched a hole in the underside, killing one crew member and injuring another. But the tank kept on fighting, survived, and brought the crew back to base. And subsequently, all the Challengers in the inventory had extra plate armour added to the 'soft spot' found by that hit. The Abrams has the same armour, known as Dorchester armour. Challengers and Abrams are not invulnerable, but I guarantee they will scare the bejeesus out of any Russians in Ukraine, even those who are not unlucky enough to come up against one. Think of the effect the small number of Tiger tanks had on the allied tankers during WW2.

[@williammorris584]

Regarding the US: of course we would like for Ukraine to win, and funding a proxy against an enemy depletes that potential enemy disproportionately relative to one’s own resources, and would thus be both desirable and sound strategically. The problem is that China is watching the depletion of Western inventories at absolutely no cost to themselves while they prepare to take Taiwan. The US must constantly weigh its ability to meet all of its strategic necessities.

[@davidchristie696]

That's a reason for limiting the value of support that the US is providing for Ukraine. But it's not a reason for not including Abrahms tanks within that support provided. Taiwan is not Ukraine. It would be far, far harder for China to take Taiwan than for Russia to take Ukraine. And the only American assets that would be used to stop China taking Taiwan would be naval. Ukraine doesn't have a navy, and the Russians are so afraid of Ukranian drones and anti-ship missiles that their navy is playing almost no part in that conflict.

[@williammorris584]

That assumes that either there would not be ground combat on Taiwan, or that the US would neither commit ground troops to that combat nor preposition units or material configured to unit sets. Also, Abrams is a distinctly different kettle of fish with respect to fuel, learning curve and other logistical tails. And we’re not likely to be sanguine about the Russians having an opportunity to pull one apart at leisure.

[@romanjansen6652]

Go Russia 💫😇🙏

[@Kuwandi]

EUROPE WILL REACH A DEFINITE PIVOTAL UNITY as all the TIME FRAME DEVELOPS NO DDOUBT EUROPE WILL REMAIN UNITED - Its better to CUT YOUR LOSSES ten GAIN THE LOSSES LATER- preemptive thinking

[@schoe5388]

These tanks will be very effective. Anyway what does the rest of world gain by escalating this war? Does UK gain much? We only get nearer dates for nuclear wars

[@tonyz3015]

The de-industrialisation and depopulation has been a great success and we hope the demilitarization and de-nazification continues. When all these objectives are met, Ukraine will evolve into a peaceful and prosperous nation under an honest and incorruptible government. Keep up the good work.

[@Nethanieal]

Modern Tanks from Germany or NATO, would validate Putin's narrative to his people. It is not an easy decision giving historical reasons for the Germans . So I understand that but still , I would not place the blame on Germany , they should not be forced to do it alone . USA should send tanks if they expect Germany to send tanks , as well as the French and the British.

[@davidchristie696]

The British have already agreed to send a token force of Challenger tanks to Ukraine, even though they know they will be all but useless to the Ukranians. They did this to remove another excuse for the Germans to block the supply of Leopards to Ukraine. The Americans should probably send a token force of Abrahms to the same end.

[@cheriemorey4728]

Sorry my phone went stupid and used words I did not say, there were a few reasons but I remember those two in particular about the size and the fuel used in them did not suit Ukrainian conditions

[@breakhouse]

Germany needs to STOP GOING BACKWARDS, and STOP CAPITULATING WITH THE CCP AND PUTIN

[@finnmaceoin152]

"Tanks Giving" Joe Bye Then pardoned a Turkey only recently, but I expect that Chicken Kiev is to be roasted because Vlad is Putin on the blitz.

[@SD-qw9ut]

Only 11 months ago it was Javelin now it's Tanks and next likely Aircraft and here I thought NATO was defensive in nature. Putin and his cronies need to be brought to account for the invasion no doubt a terrible loss on both sides, but the bigger picture in all of this has always been Crimea it's ports and routes are strategically important for both Russia and NATO and supply of Gas, funny (it's not really) how one of the worst environmental disasters with the release of Methane due to blowing up Nord stream pipelines right on European borders has been lost in the news, or should i state no longer reported not one mention of the environmental impact, we all know who was behind that but we don't talk about that, do we. The thing is if people believe Crimea will fall into Ukrainian hands IMO they are mistaken, 2023 IMO will see a massive escalation in this war, should Russia start to lose...I think we all know what that escalation is, first a warning with a test then...well.

[@davidchristie696]

If NATO acknowledges that the Russian government was behind the destruction of the Nordstream pipelines, that represent 'critical civilian infrastructure' then this effectively is an act of war, and would force NATO into direct conflict with Russia. In that event Russia would be forced to go nuclear on day 1. Politicians must consider this and do whatever they can to prevent that kind of catastrophe.

[@SD-qw9ut]

@@davidchristie696 I'm thinking the US blew it up, makes no sense Russia cos all they have to do is turn off the taps, no gas. US wanted EU as a customer of their gas, I do believe an historic agreement as already been signed by US and EU some months ago (March 2022) to provide millions of cubic tonnes annually to the EU from the US.

[@Shryce]

A wise decision of the Germans not to send tanks to Ukraine. Even with all the tanks the EU is considering sending now Ukraine would still have far less tanks and heavy weapons then at the beginning of this conflict... so this is just one huge exercise in futility which will cause thousands and thousands of more unnecessary Ukrainian casualties and destroyed cities. But then again... that is exactly what the US and EU want...

[@davidchristie696]

Actually when the Ukranians defeated the Russians in their bid to take Kiyv, they captured more tanks and material than has been supplied to them by NATO since the war began. They obtained an even bigger haul when they routed the Russians around Karkiv. Right now they are preparing those resources for the spring. Without NATO supplied tanks the Ukrainian army has been estimated to be at least five times stronger by spring than when the war started. During the Gulf wars, when Abrahms and Challenger tanks went up against Russian tanks, the kill ratio was more than 100:1. So having even a modest number of western NATO tanks would be a real moral booster, and would likely make a serious impact on the outcome of the spring offensives. The Leopard is not tested in combat to the same extent as the Abrahms and Challenger, but it is likely to be just as effective. So sending western NATO tanks to Ukraine would definitely not be futile.

[@ChuckAmadi]

Who firing Missiles and Rockets indiscriminatly into Ukraine. That's the problem. Debating on Tanks Ivan. Send AFU what they need to stop this tyranny from the Orcs.

[@aleccap5946]

What's that got to do with anyone ? Where is the Ukrainian armed forces ? Air force, navy, army where are they ? 11 months and 50 countries having to bail these people out every time 🙄

[@patrickalford1278]

Fighting against the might of invading Russian forces.

[@aleccap5946]

@@patrickalford1278 You'd prefer American then ?

[@patrickalford1278]

@@aleccap5946 Just give the Ukrainians what they need to get back their country.

[@matso3856]

@@aleccap5946 Yes , although they come with different problems all togheter , they at least pay for their visit and leaves afterwards.

[@privatedelux]

Next step for wet dreams of polaks about «Polska od morza do morza»