"Polarized Training" Overrated? (Or just re-packaged) vs Pyramidal or Zone Training Intensity?

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[@vchurchill2006]

2017: 1 mile race in 6:52.9 2017-2022: Higher Running Training 2022: Half Marathon in 1:27:43 (6:42/mi) Debate settled

[@Vo2maxProductions]

Thanks for your support and for being part of the Higher Running family! 🙌Congrats on the amazing progression and fast half marathon time!

[@rm6857]

With all due respect nothing spectacular if you just started with running.

[@cpruns4501]

I went to a Parent/Teacher interview the other night and the teacher said "We are taking this new approach where we are going away from learning to read words by sight (memorization) and we are actually teaching the kids to sound out the words....using the letters. WTF? I didn't know we got away from that approach. It's call Phonics and we were doing that back in my day. This teacher acted like it was a brand new approach (maybe he didn't know - he was pretty young). It is funny how things just kind of go around in circles. Really great information here. Thanks Sage as always.

[@foxrunner7110]

One of your best and most informative videos! Cheers👍🏻

[@scotteek]

There is a good conversation to be had about how a good coach modifies a "standard program" based on how the athlete is responding. Many self coached would stick to the plan no mater what, because that's what they have been told they should do!

[@marcuslockhart4610]

100% this! How to adapt a standard plan to how you are feeling like kind of like in Brad Hudson's book Run Faster.

[@Vo2maxProductions]

Great topic! Yes, even in our Higher Running Training plans we have a whole "Guide/book" and tips about how to modify the plans to fit your lifestyle/needs and if things like a minor injury/illness or busy life stress pop up

[@marcuslockhart4610]

Like how to tell if you need more threshold work vs v02 max vs aerobic base building etc then an example if how to implement that.

[@lisarunsfast7368]

Your training plans are fantastic! I used the half marathon plan and did great! Very easy to follow.

[@Vo2maxProductions]

Glad you like them!

[@jansam9401]

Great talk! Training talk idea: as well as you talked about kilian training could you talk about the norwegian training style? not only Ingebrigtsens are showing great results but also the triathles too.

[@kierenkd]

More zone 3. Most hobby joggers trying polarized arent doing enough volume nor working hard enough in the aerobic zone.

[@MeatlessNugget]

I see the quality improving man! Keep it up, really enjoying these videos lately. I would love to know how your nose breathing is coming along in a future video!

[@NLghost010]

Would love to see you discuss this title question with Stephen Seiler, i bet he would be willing to do a video with you on the topic. I've seen him interviewed for other youtube channels as well. Fingers crossed!

[@christopherbrand5360]

I think Dr Seiler has clarified that a lot of people have misinterpreted the early papers on polarized training. Most of the confusion comes from the intensity measurements used to classify training sessions. The goal of the classification was to align with RPE of the athletes for the session. If an interval session was 10 miles or 1 hour long, but there was 20 minutes of time at 5-3k pace, the whole thing was classified as an intense, VO2MAX session. If a HR record was available, maybe 12-8 minutes of the session would be in the VO2MAX heart rate zone, a roughly equal amount would be in the tempo/threshold zone, and the majority would be easy zone. But the RPE classification assigned the whole hour to the hard 20% of the polarized distribution (and none in the middle tempo/threshold zone). This is what they meant to do in those studies - it reflects how often athletes are training hard and the distribution of the goals of elite athletes’ training sessions. But it was also easy to misinterpret if people didn’t dig into the methodology. If you take the same studies and aggregate time in heart rate zones for these elite endurance athletes you almost always get the classic pyramidal distribution and much less time in the top, hardest zone. I actually think that you would find that you and Dr Seiler agree on what training principles are effective for endurance running.

[@Vo2maxProductions]

You know I had to cut this video from being too long of a ramble but yeah I could go on with more points: 1. pretty much the ideal thing still is pyramidal in distribution and that the whole "polarized" distribution is really more a new buzz word for a possible phase in training imo. There was actually one study with lots of variables that was trying to show that within a single training plan cycle it was more "more ideal" to start out with a pyramidal distribution and then change into a more polarized distribution for later on in the training cycle/phase for a period of several weeks. I think Seiler worked backwards more: He observed what top elite athletes did for trainings/cycles , then modeled after their distributions. I still think its a big oversimplification in general and i don't like it when people "re-package" what has already been there since Arthur Lydiard without giving due credit! I don't know....maybe he has?

[@peterschau]

Thanks to your plan I was able to run a 11 min. PB in Berlin 4 weeks ago - it worked perfectly!

[@Vo2maxProductions]

Glad it helped! Congrats!!!

[@thomasekudahl8820]

Hi Sage. Suggestion for TTT. You have talked a lot about cadence in your videos, but i don't think you have talked about how to increase your cadence if it's too low. What is the best way to do so?? I think i have a pretty low cadence (my watch usually says 163) but when I try to run with a higher cadence for longer distances i feel like my legs just get slower and i fall back to the same old cadence. Any suggestions???

[@nolanparke765]

Run at the cadence your body tells you is natural if it’s not causing injuries

[@davidwilliams912]

Good presentation Sage!

[@leocriscuola]

So bottom line is have a training plan for your specific event that hits all the key stimulus. Thanks Sage.

[@leesander-king1253]

Where can I get the hoodie?😜 Great videos 👍🏻

[@autokar123]

How you do it man. I just finished “80/20 running” by Fitzgerald. You’re on point, great video!

Great talk Sage, very informative!

[@Vo2maxProductions]

thanks for your support!

[@Shevock]

Good talk. I suspect 80/20 leaves in too much anaerobic work for distance runners. It was developed on research with cross country skiers, which has less impact, repetition injuries than marathoning. Lydiard had a runner run the 800 meter record with far less than 20% of his work being high intensity.

[@BJ-ui2rc]

Yeah I've had some training plans that have zero tempo work and way too many intervals which were within big mileage sessions. I feel as though my biggest gains come from doing mostly easy runs at various paces on various surfaces and having maybe one tempo session per week and an interval session every once in awhile. I tend to develop injuries with intervals too that I don't get with tempo and slower. I have Matt Fitzgeralds 80/20 running book and it's mostly great but every week has both tempo and intervals which can be too much for some people. Supposedly the intervals only make up about 5% of total time during any week and tempo efforts are the other 15% of the high intensity stuff, but what I like is the separation between zone 1 and 2 where zone 1 is recovery pace aka slow as hell, zone 2 is regular easy pace which is below marathon pace still. Some runs are entirely recovery pace which is missing from a lot of subpar training programs.

[@masiphelps]

I provide a very anecdotal and small data sample here. I've been running for two years, and this spring I used Higher Running's Advanced Boston Plan (I used the low end of mileage since I'd only been doing 30mpw). I tried adhering to the prescribed training zones, but almost every week I felt overworked and on the verge of overuse injury. Ultimately, I hit my goal and ran barely sub-3 at Boston, and I had a more impressive sub-1:22 half marathon a month before the marathon, but the entire training process was mentally and physically exhausting and lacked enjoyment. I would skip days or workouts frequently to allow for more recovery. This was my first formal training program and more mileage than I had ever done, so I acknowledge that I was probably biting off more than I could chew, but fast forward to now, and I'm 12 weeks into Matt Fitzgerald's Level 2 Half training program from his book Run Like a Pro, and I've had hardly any pains, and my daily runs are more enjoyable. I attribute most of this change to polarization (Fitzgerald is the 80/20 guy), and to his overemphasis on how easy one should take easy days. Using pyramidal training/zones, I would do many "easy" and long runs in the upper portions of the green zone, from 70% to 77% of max HR, which translates to 140-155 for me, often in the low 8:00s, sometimes high 7:00s. Now, I force myself to stay below 140 for the entire duration of my easy runs (Fitzgerald includes most long runs as easy), and I often average 133ish. This whole training cycle, I think I've only held a pace between 6:30 and 8:30 two or three times. Most of my easy runs average 8:50 to 9:30, while my interval paces are mostly 6:10 or faster. I'll see how the result plays out in three weeks (I'd expect some fitness improvement regardless of training method simply because of how new I am to running), but I'm definitely enjoying a polarized training method a lot more.

[@Vo2maxProductions]

So let me get this straight: , You got one of our Higher Running Marathon Training Plans, followed it, and then ran a sub 1:22 half marathon and a sub 3 hour marathon at Boston (having only done 30mpw which we do not recommend by the way)?! The marathon grind is generally quite tiring...we would say that is a normal part of the process to hit those kinds of times. However, you came into it with way too low mileage (volume) imo.

[@masiphelps]

@@Vo2maxProductions agreed I came in with too low volume...but I did the same thing this summer with the 80/20 Half plan, going from 30 mpw to 50 mpw no problem. I guess I'm a data point for runners ramping their mileage quickly, which doesn't (or shouldn't) apply to most. certainly happy with the race results from this spring, but very happy with the path I'm on currently

[@EmirBalali]

@@masiphelps i think u cant compare any of this. i went through a similar process a few years ago with the basic training plan from sage and then i became a real runner who got used to all the stress from constantly running 40 mpw and not being tired anymore etc. i ran a 1:21 HM. any traning program from that point on would feel easy doable. especially easy running by fitzgerald. ( i did the same and was very happy about it, but now i believe all the gains came from consistent running and not because of the 80/20 rule which is difficult anyway as you really need to step up the 20% part to do it right. (higher risk of injury)

[@marcuslockhart4610]

Great talk Sage!

[@thomaswitten8129]

Hi Sage, thanks for your amazing videos! So helpful! Any chance you could do a video on max HR pls? My physical max HR aged 45 should be 175 - but on hard runs regularly gets up to 187-189 - highest pushing uphill I hit 192 a few months ago. Garmin then uses this to calibrate my zones which is obviously very different from the standard 220 minus age… which to follow??

[@thomasfitzgibbon6668]

Really interesting video. Could you elaborate more on short vs long vo2max intervals? Which do you find to be more beneficial?

[@RXP91]

So there's two parts of Seiler's work. One is epidemiology - looking at training diaries of high performance athletes & computing what heart rate/pace zones are in. The most successful athletes fall into 80/20. There's no denying that. The other aspect you're talking about is a Randomised Controlled Trial - does 80/20 vs another method have the advantage? That's where the criticisms you address have validity. But not in the former. I know for health easy pace is something you can do for life so best for longevity.

[@DoItNutrition]

You’re really on-point for this one, Sage. Thanks for the knowledge 💣

[@shawnat8799]

Cake analogy! My favorite 😁😁😃😃

[@today-nl]

Great talk!

[@logiconabstractions6596]

This year, I trained mostly to run 113km with 5500m of D+. So lots of volume, hills and slow paces. However, for most week I trained once with a running club, mostly short & fast intervales (30s up to ~5mins), Vo2max-ish type of things. After recovering from the ultra, I ran a marathon. I had training on high intensity and long slow distances, but no tempo at anything around marathon pace. I ran a relatively easy 3:20 marathon. Might have been able to get close to 3:05 with a perfect effort. I was somewhat surprised at how well that combination worked for the marathon.

[@mstaples4051]

Sage. I love your videos Great content. Super informative, not overly specialized, not simple stuff either. You do your research & you're you're well-spoken. But I wish you could improve the quality of the audio. I imagine you have high ceilings & it sounds like you're in an echo chamber. Probably an easy fix (but what do I know?). I hate to be critical..Love your stuff, but I wish the audio quality was better.

[@Vo2maxProductions]

you know what I just realized what happened: I have a $200 lav mic....and it usually performs a lot better. However, in this case I forgot to edit out the camera audio....so you're hearing the raw camera audio track and it's the bad one. Usually I don't make this editing mistake but I see I did in this video!

[@mstaples4051]

@@Vo2maxProductions Thanks, didn't want to be critical (love your stuff). Keep up the great work you're doing!

[@markbruaski1231]

thank you- very interesting topic-- if you have an upcoming race with 6,000 feet of climbing is there some precentage of what i should be doing of climbing in my weekly totals and or long run??? thanks again for what you do for us!

[@PerryScanlon]

The fastest runners do some threshold running, but maybe polarized (80% of # of workouts easy) is just a safe training method for busy people with stressful lives. And the Seiler interval study seems to have used non-athletes because TTE values were surprisingly low.

[@SenorNuttypoo]

Sage, Im looking to move away from my current, generic 80/20 plan from Training Peaks to a more specific plan which works on my limiters. In reviewing your plans at higerrunning, the volume for the full marathon is too high, Im dedicated to Ironman distance work and that plans volume + weekly swim + bike workouts would be to much. I was thinking using your lower volume Half Marathon Plan. Any thoughts or recommendations are appreciated?

[@nilesousa6720]

Great talk

[@ironmantooltime]

I can't make the amount of low aerobic my garmin demands and do some tempo instead but I'm more around 5 hrs a week. At 10 I think my low aero would be higher. I do try and keep the high zones targetted though. Mostly focused around 10s and halfs but for marathon would up the low aero for sure.

[@user-rl3ef4ju9k]

Great talk! Can you invest on better mic and acoustics to lower the echo and soften the sound, thanks!

[@Vo2maxProductions]

you know what I just realized what happened: I have a $200 mic....and it usually performs a lot better. However, in this case I forgot to edit out the camera audio....so you're hearing the raw camera audio track and it's the bad one. Usually I don't make this editing mistake but I see I did in this video!

[@rych7852]

6 weeks ago I started HR training as my previous marathon attempts have always led to me blowing at around mile 18-20. (I need to do things differently. PB is 4:09) My max HR for "easy" is calculated as 137bpm - My max HR was taken from my last marathon. This feels horrific! I'm "running" at 7min/km. The Jack Daniels vDot gives me 6min/km for "easy/conversational" pace. Which I always felt was a genuine conversational pace and not too fast. Which should I stick to for my base building and easy run paces through my next training cycle (next marathon is 5 months away) The 7min kms (HR based) or the 6min kms (vdot based) Which is going to do the best job of increasing the mitochondria? My overall endurance etc

[@brittanykopke6133]

Oh! Great hair day!!

[@alanshrimpton6787]

I struggle with max HR. I can run at 182bpm at the end of a hard HM but in training I'm done at 175bpm. So not sure if I should set my % based on training max or true max with the drift

[@mkoqwe]

I'm 39 doing most runs Z1 & Z2 my garmin VO2max still grows (63)... Sleep well, bearthe well, train smart!!

[@Trailrunner1978]

Actually, I would rather say the common thing with the best endurance athletes are one thing: High volume. And with high volume you automatically get high amounts of "easy" pace. So the distribution within a high volume will have great variety, but also similarities. I really think for runners and amateurs like me increasing volume in a safe way is the main focus. But I do believe that having a clear difference between endurance/easy training and training around or over treshold should be very important.

[@Vo2maxProductions]

yes, I have always preached high volume. Basically the higher the better for most people (although elites topping out at 120mpw or 200km/week is pretty common). The issue is people tend to get hurt if they run too much (could even be on 30-miles a week or 50km/week). That is another reason to "run slow and easy" most days though! To mimimize injury risk (impact force) while allowing for a build in volume or weekly mileage. The other risk is fatigue risk (from too high mileage) and how it can hurt your quality/speed day focus. Finally, most people who work full time jobs and have family obligations really don't have time for super high mileage (although we've found a lot of people can make big gains consistently doing at lest 50-65 miles per week (80-100km per week) with a good balance of quality workouts.

[@Trailrunner1978]

@@Vo2maxProductions Yes I agree Sage.

[@lisapet160]

Mileage or time or calories distribution 80/20?

[@ChrisCapoccia]

Pyramid scheme training 🤣 like the Amway lady came by to give you a tip

[@donwinston]

Rate of perceived exertion is useless for me. I can't tell the difference between coke and Diet Coke.

[@shruk4]

Im a casual runner. Ngl kinda went over my head this lol.

[@shanesmith2204]

An interesting case is Jonathan Walton, a masters class runner in the UK who runs phenomenal marathon times off of nothing but low HR training

[@crayontom9687]

I think he races quite often so that prob gives him enough ‘speed work’ when mixed with his massive amount of low intensity work. I saw him at the Masters XC relays last year, he smashed it

[@Vo2maxProductions]

there's a "talent/genetic" component as well. I know plenty of elites that could just run slow and easy and low mileage, but then still pop off a sub 2:30 marathon in training easy!

[@jcousins98]

The problem with exercise medicine is 2 fold 1) its pretty new (under 30 years old) and that means its not very developed 2) The sample sizes are always tiny & it's difficult for the studies to be designed well (controls etc) I always take it with a pinch of salt

[@pablocastro2210]

Video seems to be interesting but the sound is really bad

[@fingerriddles]

No problem with sound here. Understood every word.

[@pablocastro2210]

@@fingerriddles too much back ground noise. He needs to invest in a quality microphone. That’s the difference between a good video and a great video…for me sound is paramount.

[@alainfreedom3159]

People still posting "normal" YT videos as if the end of free humanity was not around the corner (2030) -