Motorcycle technique: Counterbalance VS Lean (Road Race Style)

[@arthurhughes8659]

This is the best explanation of leaning vs counterbalance I've ever seen. It's a shame that you can't call out some of those self-proclaimed "experts" on the Internet teaching people dangerous motorcycle tactics and procedures.

[@PoliceMotorTraining]

@@arthurhughes8659 I think most people that teach do it from the standpoint of helping others improve, and they teach to the degree they were taught and have knowledge. Sure we see “do it my way- it’s about me!” Mentalities but just smile and walk past them, keep learning and enjoying the process. 👍

[@T_210]

Good vid Quinn. Let me add, another advantage of leaning in and keeping the bike more vertical is the suspension works far better. Counterbalancing with the bike tilted far over- the tire is still tracking a horizontal surface, but the suspension (forks especially) are not vertical which is their optimum axis to compress and extend. Indeed, the farther over you push the bike- the less ability the forks have to do their job keeping the tire mated to the pavement- instead, a bump in the road (who has those anymore?) will sling the tire straight up, not in a fork compression stroke, and that means less weight on that contact patch. Not sure I wor=smithed this well, I hope the point comes across. Ride safe all.

[@althepal6818]

Well explained. So many riders think leaning is for taking the bike lower when actually, it is to do the opposite.

[@Audfile]

Then you get to the modern style where they lean and achieve the same lean angle as counterbalance, right on the rim, basically shoulder on the pavement. Can you imagine your shoulder on the pavement??!!

[@SuspensionTruth]

Thank you very much for this video - I can more clearly see the benefits of both techniques and when to use them. Seeing you switch smoothly between them and how your bike position (and road speed) changes is really helpful.

[@thanosetsitty1896]

This is where people get it confused. Thanks for making this video.

[@Audfile]

I think i just learned more in the last 5 minutes than I ever have reading the internet or Yotube for advice. This teaching is absolutely brilliant, masterful. Thank you! Ive been doing lean in.. for everything, and it never quite felt right at slow speeds. I kind of counterbalance when im making a u turn but it isnt because i know what im doing, in my mind I should be leaning in and why im not turning tighter is some failure on my part. And im a decent rider past 20 mph! This completes the package for me, thanks again.

[@PoliceMotorTraining]

@@Audfile that’s absolutely fantastic to hear. Really nothing better than finding out you contributed to somebody having a better experience. Thanks for posting that up. I really appreciate it.

[@yavuzakkus9548]

Thanks to your video I finally grasped leaning and counter leaning. Thanks a lot!

[@stefanhansen5882]

This is absolutely incredible! Such a good demonstration. I'll go practice now. Thanks!

[@benbianchi3074]

A well delivered message on a critically important topic👍

[@Old-n-slo-locked-n-leaned]

Perfect explanation! Thanks Quinn! I came to the same conclusion after concentrating on riding cones for a couple of years and then attending Yamaha Champ School this summer. But there is no way I could explain it as clearly as you just did!

[@DNiddy]

bravo

[@gravyau]

I don’t know what Quinn is better at, communicating or riding. Really enjoying the channel.

[@peterphillips5612]

Excellent video, great explanation and demo!

[@MXD29]

Great info. Thank you! - MXD

[@deldridg]

Excellent demo and a good reminder to keep up the skills. Currently riding a Ninja 1000 and will find a space tomorrow and get some practice in! Cheers from Sydney and thank you - Dave

[@PoliceMotorTraining]

@@deldridg hey buddy, I appreciate the support, any issues or difficulty. Please reach out and we will work through it.👍

[@got_to_roll]

Great demonstration. Looking forward to doing this consciously. I do it without thinking now. It'll be interesting to focus and see if I improve.

[@SergS-o7e]

awesome info and explained in a way i can comprehend, thanks

[@PoliceMotorTraining]

@@SergS-o7e that’s great to hear! Thank you👍

[@soujrnr]

Fantastic stuff, as always, Quinn. I like how you explained that this isn't an either/or option, but a both/and option. One is superior not as it relates to being better than the other, but in the context of when it's used. When they are both used in the proper context, they offer a superior solution all around! As I've mentioned before, I ride a couch (Gold Wing). It's relatively new to me. I've had it for maybe a year. After watching your video (and taking notes on my riding as per another suggestion you gave in a video), I realize that I haven't employed them both effectively in my slow work. My biggest fail is in the counterbalancing when trying to do tight U-turns. So, back to the parking lot!! Thanks, as always. I am so grateful for your succinct explanations and real-world practicality!!

[@PoliceMotorTraining]

@@soujrnr thank you-it’s great to hear you’re finding value here👍

[@stuartbradley2692]

Great presentation as always. After you've explained techniques they seem obvious and I feel I've always known them! ;)

[@Taking_Care_Of_The_Business]

Great demonstration Kudos!

[@gregm9230]

Thank you! The video of you showing how counterbalancing works is worth 1000 words! I feel like I understand it better now. 👍

[@PoliceMotorTraining]

That’s awesome! I love hearing that! Very 😎 cool👍

[@gregm9230]

⁠ I'm a new rider. I went and practiced going in 40 ft circles and counterbalancing as I dared to let the bike lean under me. I want you to know that by doing that I leaned the bike more than I ever have before. That's the highest praise I can give you! 👍

[@PoliceMotorTraining]

@@gregm9230 hey that’s absolutely awesome! Well done Greg! And thank you

[@rayweeks1056]

Excellent video…! Lots of useful information.

[@krismerchant4982]

Great video. Appreciate the clarity between both techniques

[@PoliceMotorTraining]

Hey man thanks👍 appreciate the support

[@SweetTorment-007]

You are really skilled, sir !

[@vansonmafeet734]

I've been riding for many, many years. This finally makes sense now. Thank you for helping the light bulb over my head turn on.

[@PoliceMotorTraining]

@@vansonmafeet734 hey that’s great!!! Awesome to hear and much appreciated buddy👍

[@joshuageronilla5827]

Thank you for the eloquent explanation. I would like to have seen a stationary outside camera angle, possibly superimposed in the corner, while you were demonstrating the transitions between the techniques. Nonetheless, I'm sure this video will help many who had any doubts about either technique!

[@PoliceMotorTraining]

Agreed, normally I would have had my drone up, but it’s packed and on its way to another event. definitely, I will make an effort to cover more angles in the future 👍

[@NoVaSlowSpeed]

Great video Quinn you are an extremely knowledgeable and well spoken guy.

[@PoliceMotorTraining]

Hey thanks buddy, I appreciate it!

[@michaelmadison8416]

Counterbalance in slow speed is also great if you have to come to a quick stop you can stand the bike up quicker to get it straight

[@akyraider1972]

Veey nice explanation

[@Jon-pv4by]

Excellent video

[@barkinsahin]

Great. Basic physics: As the speed drops and turning radius tightens, gravity beats centrifugal force. Then I need to counter balance. As the speed significantly increases, centrifugal force beats gravity in corners. Then I need to hang off, to a certain extent with my limited skils😊.

[@PoliceMotorTraining]

Yes- what he said! Hey btw, maybe we hang out together sometime and you could do all the talking, I’m pretty confident we would sound much smarter!👍 thanks buddy

[@coplock6689]

Great video, thanks for sharing.

[@jshipley001]

That was great. Thank you.

[@LachlanJackson-ws1py]

A master class if ever there was one. Superb!

[@danmorrissette4814]

Excellent

[@PadmaDorjee]

This was very helpful

[@ilya5042]

Great video and commentiing.. It's interesting to watch how motocycle behaviour and various techniques applied change as the speed increases.

[@PoliceMotorTraining]

Hey thanks for the positive feedback. And yes, speed absolutely changes things!

[@flrdbrnr]

Good one buddy great explanation!!!

[@MickBla]

Amazing video!

[@MikeGuzman-t6f]

Ben, can you make a video talking about the lack of training in police motor units? Tell us about liability, and why we are hurting ourselves. I think it’s important that motors start seeking outside training since it’s not being provided to us.

[@PadmaDorjee]

Would you consider doing a video about grip or traction in the wet PLEASE?

[@gammash]

Excellent demonstration, it would better if another external cam exist.

[@PoliceMotorTraining]

@@gammash absolutely agree with you, pretty much all my videos have been a one man band, which makes the filming and the editing less than ideal.

[@muratpalaz2430]

best explanation! thank you. Always afraid of the tyre would give up and slip at slow sleep tight turns with counter-balancing. Any guidance on that?

[@PoliceMotorTraining]

@@muratpalaz2430 anytime I’m exploring traction. I walk into it in a safe and controlled environment. That tends to help me figure out exactly where and when the traction starts going away. Just remember it will vary, depending on where you are and what the surface traction is providing on a given day and location. I think the biggest goal for me is repeatability, and that comes from having a solid base of understanding and experience at various lean angles . In other words, lots of practice and lots of experimenting and take your time to get comfortable. Over time, you will definitely get more comfortable.

[@devianthousend]

Brilliant explanation as always! One question about counter balancing: when you are doing a tight U-turn to the left for example, doing the counter lean, on which footpeg do you apply pressure? In this scenario turning to the left, applying pressure to the left footpeg helps the bike to turn and lean. What confuses me is, if we apply our weight to the right footpeg this will make it harder for the bike to lean in. Some instructors say pushing as hard as you can on the outside peg (in this scenario the right one) is what makes the counter balance work, which doesn't make sense to me. Why fight the bike? Are you pushing on the inner left footpeg while also counter balancing your upper body, as well as moving your but a bit to the right side? That makes sense to me. You are pushing on the left footpeg helping the bike to turn and lean while also counter balancing with your upper body to the right. Sorry if my question is confusing I am beating my head trying to figure this out.

[@PoliceMotorTraining]

First of all, I appreciate the support. As for your question, it’s important to note you do not need to use your feet. Counterbalance does not require feet in the equation, so just have that in your head when you are turning. Regarding the foot pressure, you are correct, pushing on the inside peg or the direction of the lean will help the bike fall in and drop over. There is a common practice related to putting your weight on the outside peg when the bike is leaned over , but that in my experience is related to off road, where the outer edge of the tire can get more traction by force supplied to the outside peg if that makes sense? The only time the bike is pushed on the outside foot peg is when I’m trying to pick it back up. So whatever direction you are leaning, push that inside peg to improve the drop in. When you are ready to get out, you would get your weight up and over the outside peg and put force to it . I just did an article in Rider Magazine called “left foot right foot heavy foot light foot. “ I talk about this very technique and explain it in a bit better detail. If you can get a hold of that, check it out, it’s floating around and might be on my Facebook page Police motor training with quinn redeker

[@devianthousend]

@@PoliceMotorTraining thank you very much Quinn, you finally cleared the confusion in my head! I will definitelly check out that article. Have a great one!

[@useless274]

would have been a lot more illustrative with a camera off the bike too. Another big advantage of counterbalancing is vision. When you're leaned into the curve you can't see as much. In town, around lots of traffic I try to counterbalance so my head can stay up and on a swivel.

[@PoliceMotorTraining]

@@useless274 yes I agree, having a stable outside camera would’ve had more illustrative value, sometimes I just don’t have the extra equipment, assistance, or gumption ha ha. as for vision improvement with counterbalance I definitely agree however, at road speeds I no longer use that technique (2nd gear and beyond) due to much needed ground clearance at anything over 30 miles an hour. Now depending on the bike you ride, ground clearance may not be an issue, but for me on the RTP I want it!

[@thenewguyj.f.e.2420]

Excellent video, my Q, is... depends on the model of motorcycle ? "BMW 1250 GSA'' Pistons are sticking out too much..

[@PoliceMotorTraining]

Riding technique fundamentals don’t change, the difference between motorcycles may accentuate aspects of the various techniques, but it doesn’t really change anything. In other words, one model with more ground clearance might allow more counterbalance before it drags hard parts or another motorcycle might have less ground clearance and require more aggressive Road race style at a given speed in order to keep it from scraping. The parallel twin engine or boxer associated with the BMW can be problematic at high speeds on a road race track where lean angles are significant. Granted, fast guys will figure out how to go fast, but it’s not necessarily the best tool for that job based on my experience with the 2007 R12S sport bike model I used to ride track days on.

[@mymatemartin]

Hi Quinn. When you lean to the inside, are you also applying pressure to push the bike away from the ground, controlling the distance between ground and bike? And, (newbie 3yr rider question here 😁), since speed equals radius and you're demonstrating the inside lean while in second gear, would it be correct to say that the inside technique is better suited to wider more sweeping turns while the counter lean, as we know, is ideal in slow speed control situations?

[@PoliceMotorTraining]

The short answers (If I understand them correctly): -When I lean to the inside, I am not struggling or forcing or any such input. I simply move from counterbalance and trade my upright position with the motorcycles lean-in position, so NOW I'm down, the bike it up. That said, this is really not an appropriate or useful forum to communicate all the little things to do and think about in order to smoothly have a bike drop into a corner comfortably and precisely. Check out these guys: www.totalcontroltraining.net As for your second question- Yes, 2nd gear/wider turns. But think about it more in terms of momentum (how fast am I going) than a specific gear or radius of a turn. Slow (1st gear)=Counterbalance Faster (2nd-6th)= Lean-In (Roadrace) style

[@mymatemartin]

@@PoliceMotorTraining Thanks Quinn. Yep, definitely understand that it's a momentum thing. Thanks for the reply. Love your channel.

[@ozcanciftci5050]

Great video..bravo..👍..i d like to ask a question..i usually use counterbalancing..what is the safe top limit of speed while counterbalancing on the road(as what i got from you when u ride fast u r in favor if lean in)

[@PoliceMotorTraining]

I think the simplest way to answer that would be counterbalance for first gear or off-road and once you click second gear and beyond use a lean-in technique. 👍

[@ozcanciftci5050]

@@PoliceMotorTraining thanks for the answer

[@pbourdon231]

As a point of clarification - would you suggest counterbalancing for tighter radius corners and leaning for high speed more open corners?

[@PoliceMotorTraining]

@@pbourdon231 think of it less about the radius of a turn and more about your approach speed. If you are going 8mph, counterbalance everything until the cows come home, as ground clearance will NEVER be a problem. But if you are moving beyond, say 20mph, start thinking about getting your body’s centerline to the inside, because that bike WILL need lean angle to corner and the faster you go the greater the lean, all other things being equal. So SLOW; tight or not, counterbalance is fine. Fast; move inside of bike’s centerline. A pro could play with these pentameters and make adjustments as necessary- in other words they could contradict what I’m saying just as an exercise in showing it can be done differently, but as a rule speed needs lean angle and inside body position provides more room for the bike to lean over. That’s better performance and safety margin.

[@pbourdon231]

@@PoliceMotorTraining thanks for the additional/clarifying info!

[@Skiamakhos]

What happens if you do neither? I can see the use of the low speed counterbalance, but at higher speeds you often see cops in the UK just sitting neutral in the saddle, controlling the bike by contersteer. How does that compare, I wonder?

[@PoliceMotorTraining]

Great question- If you neither counterbalance, nor lean-in, and are basically just sitting neutral on the bike when in a high or low speed lean angle, your bike will work "OK" in either situation. Not optimal, not terrible. And in fact there are great reasons to just adopt a "sit centered in the middle of the bike for all situations" technique; 1) Its easy to learn and apply, 2) It's easy to teach newer riders, 3) It will work more or less everywhere. I use both techniques because they absolutely work better than an always-in-the-midle-of-the-seat technique for specific situations, of which I am experienced in. But if you don't have the knowledge and seat time to use them efficiently and appropriately, they can do more harm than good.

[@chinwakebhai]

Good riders don't have to pick one over the other: they seamlessly adopt the correct posture to maximize the joy of riding. When you can do that intuitively you enjoy the experience on a different level.

[@kyjelly5524]

I’ve always had race bikes and was told to lean off the bike. I’m into dual sports now and adv bikes. Now I see the counter lean more often. So at slower speeds it seems better to counter lean and higher speeds I need to lean off the bike? Seems to make the most sense to me. If I’m riding the speed limit then either technique is good. But if you ride like an A hole then lean off the bike? Lol

[@PoliceMotorTraining]

@@kyjelly5524 yeah that sounds about right. Speed first gear stuff, counterbalance, and for off-road always counterbalance. Unless you are on an adventure bike and you are on the street. But if it’s off-road stuff, we are always always counter bouncing, regardless of what year we are in.

[@kyjelly5524]

@@PoliceMotorTraining much appreciated. Thanks

[@MRmUIREND1]

Sorry, you can't talk about touching the ground at a certain speed without understanding the radius. I can counter balance my Honda st1300 and take significant tight radius bends in the Scottish highlands fast roads at 90mph and not touch ground. However, in a carpark doing a radius of 30ft I can touch pegs at the speeds you mention.

[@PoliceMotorTraining]

@@MRmUIREND1 not sure I understand your correction for me here. Assuming radius remains constant, and speeds increase, lean angle will increase. If we move our body position from counterbalance to lean-in/road race position, the bike’s angle as it relates to the ground will be altered. What else am I missing?

[@MRmUIREND1]

@@PoliceMotorTraining Yes, I can see I have caused some confusion. I have been riding superbikes and large sport tourers for 40 years, including many spent racing. I have in my development tried all the techniques for fast and safe cornering. To be clear to everyone I absolutely agree with everything you said in your video. What I felt from the video, and maybe other people didn't get the same impression, was that counterbalance was being promoted as the technique for slower speeds and maybe not better than lean at higher speeds, where you in my view are absolutely correct, for extra high speed corners or dodgy roads, lean. So I was trying to point out to your viewers, that counterbalance on decent condition roads will not put you at risk of early bottoming out, unless your are riding a cruiser, even cornering at high speeds suitable for the bend. For me, it is my chosen technique for everyday riding. I feel it allows my orientation to the road and surroundings to be far clearer. I had this view reinforced from Ryan Fortnine's experience at Police training where they advocated counterbalance at all times. So, apologies to you and your viewers, point I was trying to get across was counterbalace needn't be thought of for just slow speeds, I have a few bikes but mostly ride my Honda st1300. Counterbalance is the Technique I use everyday in the Scottish Highlands, which has some very fast winding roads. Average cornering speed 75mph. max around 90mph and my pegs have only ever touched twice in a lot of years. Just as an aside, I feel no on-line tutor could offer greater benefit to riders than to discuss braking in corners, and I mean at any point in the corner and am not talking about traditional Trail braking. For me I view it differently. The trinity of counterlean, throttle and front brake are the holy trinity of safe cornering. I recently had major disagreement with Moto Jitsu, and truth is he isn't an innovator, just recites what other trainers tell him, right or wrong. The only others I have seen promoting front braking to control your line at any point in a bend are Carol Nash, and Bennetts motorbike insurance companies, the biggest in the UK. For me, and I ride very fast, when I have gotten my corner line wrong, particularly blind corners, I use subtle application of the Front brake at any point in the corner to correct my line and bring me in while maintaining power. It would be of most benefit to 'fast' road riders. This technique has stopped me crossing into opposing traffic or conversely running off road hundreds of times. Using it causes me no excitement, its another control of my cornering line I have complete faith in. As I learned and applied more and more gradual brake pressure I was amazed at how much you can reduce speed and pull in your line even when leaned over at speed. For anyone this is The Lifesaver . Bennetts Insurance have a KZbin video with a bike test of applying brake pressure at any point throughout a corner. Conclusion, the technique if applied correctly can be a life saver. If losing your line, apply gradually increasing front brake and be ready for the bike to start standing up and delicately lean in to add countersteer. Greatest thing I ever learned for fast riding, to be fair I learned it almost intuitively. Note, both Carol Nash and Bennetts say its a highly developed skill, and maybe not for riders who can't stay calm and in control? Kind Regards.

[@frankt2658]

Roads are NOT for racing!

[@edbeavers4061]

In the first minute or so you were talking about counterbalancing without telling us which way you're turning. At no point do you turn the handlebars or tell us whether you're turning right or left. Showing us that you're leaning one way or the other with no indication of which way you are turning doesn't help to understand what you are doing. I could not continue to watch.

[@PoliceMotorTraining]

Hey buddy, my apologies it did not make sense for you, I generated the video to essentially articulate the reasons you would shift from one style to the next- when speeds pick up, you start dragging hard parts and then, when you transition to the lean in style, you can actually carry more speed and still not drag hard parts. That was the demonstration, so I did not so much feel the need to explain the way to perform styles, but rather why to employ them I assumed the viewer had that part sorted, so that’s on me.