Polyculture Fail

[@stevejohnson5344]

This man is one of the most thorough and dedicated people I will ever have the pleasure to learn from.

[@REDGardens]

I hope I can live up to that!

[@johnchilds1355]

I agree Steve. I love the honesty of not only what worked but what didn't. We learn little without some failure. Enjoy this channel very much.

[@dawnmorning]

Appreciate the honesty. Thank you.

[@REDGardens]

:)

[@panmicrotones]

Wow that's a beautiful spreadsheet. Absolutely love the data you collect on this channel!

[@REDGardens]

They do get very interesting at that level of complexity.

[@AtheistEve]

Obeezy You might appreciate Steve’s Seaside Allotment. He is thorough, organized and uses spreadsheets.

[@honeychops5918]

Great stuff. We would LOVE another video on composting.

[@REDGardens]

Thanks. I also think it is about time for another one.

[@ChristopherLWeeks]

This was the first RED Gardens video I ever ran across -- researching polyculture gardening options, and now I'm watching all your videos in chronological order and just made it back up to this point. I'm hoping to catch up before planting season starts here in northern MN, USA. Thanks for the work!

[@REDGardens]

Wow! That is a lot of videos, and such an interesting one to start with! Glad you found my channel.

[@idahogardengirl942]

Thank you for the video. I did polyculture for a couple of years. It was a very small garden and it was manageable. Now I have a much bigger garden... all in raised beds. Because of the soil and watering situation (I'm on a timer and receive water during only 4 certain hours of the day:noon - 2 pm and midnight -2 am.), I have gone back to monoculture or some (very few) interplantings.

[@REDGardens]

Having that kind of water restriction could really change your approach!

[@danielfisch655]

I find that failing is part of learning. Thank you for sharing another extremely informative video.

[@owendavies8227]

The best success I have had with polyculture is intercropping flour corn and dry pole beans. It's a lot easier when you keep it down to 2-3 crops and/or harvest all at once.

[@REDGardens]

I wish we had the heat to be able to grow corn. I agree it is easier to keep things to a 2-3 crops. I’m going to explore sneaking a few short lived ones into the mix.

[@Cyssane]

Yep, those are the crops that were used in the original "three sisters" planting (with the addition of late-season squash). Modern gardeners try to substitute crops for which this type of planting was never intended, such as sweet corn instead of flour corn, and green beans instead of dry beans. Then they wonder why their garden doesn't work.

[@owendavies8227]

@@REDGardens Try painted mountain, abenaki or gaspe'. Those should be good at growing in the cold and have a shorter season too. Those will work for flour corn and baby corn. If you're talking about sweet corn though, you may be right.

[@DovidM]

RED Gardens I’ve read that maize silage is done commercially in Ireland, and that it fetches a higher price than grass silage.

[@rosea830]

That is some fabulous straight-talk! Not everything works for everyone and it's great that you're not giving up just because last year's garden perfect.

[@milliehandshrimp]

Than you for this. I tried this once and had a giant fail. Glad to know I'm not alone!

[@REDGardens]

It seem a lot of people have tried and failed. I wonder how this type of method could be presented or structured so that people could be more likely to succeed at first, and then add in complexity later.

[@milliehandshrimp]

@@REDGardens I wonder if the technique is not more appropriate for a perennial bed, where there's not such a strict time limit to find a balance.

[@GarSunChan]

I appreciate your altruistic sharing of such precious experience. Have learnt a lot from it. Thanks.!

[@REDGardens]

:)

[@kathleenwest1463]

Two or three small things. One, I never met a spreadsheet I didn't like. Two, my admittedly less rigorous attempts at polyculture suffered similar problems. I feel as if it's a lot more work intensive to give each crop the attention it needs to thrive. Three - thank you for your project. My gardening is informed in small or large ways with each new video, and encourages me to be more methodical in my approach.

[@REDGardens]

I too have grown quite fond of spreadsheets, though I need to wean myself off them for this garden ;) Thanks for your encouraging comment. Very glad to know that my videos are helpful!

[@TheZenytram]

glad that you didnt give up the polyculture cuz is super hard to make it works, we need tons data all around the word to know exactely how those plant grow in relation to each other, and without ppl like you we will never figure it out. i think that polyculture will be the best way to grow after we sort the best way to use it.

[@greens4507]

One of the best channel imo. Realistic and personal perspective as it should be taking into account that every soil and climate is different. Also, lots of instructional videos just copy paste dogmatic advice without real trial/error approach. I like how you do your shit sir!

[@REDGardens]

Thanks!!

[@luutas]

Hey Bruce. One helpful tip for you: When you take the seedlings just chop and drop them again in the same spot. That will: * Alow less weeds to grow; * Give a alternative source of food to the pests; * Increase the biological activity in the soil; * Keep the moisture in; * Distribute better the water when you are watering; * Create a good covering for the soil; * Restore the nutrients that the seedling took; * Make your work less carrying the seedlings away; * Etc. Greetings from Brazil 🇧🇷. Hope that's helpful, you deserve it

[@luutas]

Another tip is to trim the lower leafs of the plants and also chop and drop or eat them. That will also make the plants grow better and stronger.

[@TheRustySpigot]

I love that you show ups and downs are honest with what you do wrong. Such an amazing channel.

[@REDGardens]

Thanks!

[@familyfruit9833]

Fascinating. We've experimented a little with polycultures in a small bed. Maintaining germination conditions for seeds of such differing germination rates (spread was 2 days - 2 weeks) was a challenge, although the attempt was ultimately successful. More generally I have difficulty with direct sown seed here, and that has hindered my other attempts a lot. I have seen Bob Flowerdew on twitter mention planting young plants into an established bed of companion plants that had self seeded there the previous autumn. I think I may try a similar approach next. The appeal to me is keeping the soil well covered, by different plants using different niches. Because the bed is in such a sun baked position.

[@hellomeoww]

Great analysis and reflection. Appreciate your honesty and realistic assessment. Thank you!

[@REDGardens]

🙂

[@clairwilliams4093]

This was awesome to watch, thank you. I wouldn't call it a fail, more of a learning curve. I am new to gardening and due to various reasons, have chosen polyculture intensive container gardening as my style. Although it sounds extremely challenging, it is what will work best for me under my circumstances. I have learned loads just from this video, so thank you very much for putting it out there and for putting in the time and effort. Gaia bless!

[@REDGardens]

Unlike a lot of people, it seems, I don't consider fail, or failure to be a negative word or concept. It is inevitable when we are learning, and only a problem if we don't face up to it dos that we can learn and build on the failure.

[@clairwilliams4093]

@@REDGardens that's a refreshing and beautiful attitude! I think I will adopt it too. I, like many others, have been conditioned to see "fail" as bad. I prefer your version💚

[@razpet20]

Thank you for this video, I really appreciate you for all the experiments you take on and then also document them properly and with numbers.

[@fxm5715]

In my own garden, I find if it's too complicated, I'll give up at some point when I just can't keep up with what needs to be done, and that area is more or less abandoned until the next planting or change of season. The old KISS principle applies. You mention the idea of clustering, so maybe the old "square foot gardening" system that was popular when I was a kid, or something similar, would be a reasonable compromise of inter-planting, density, and manageability.

[@REDGardens]

Yeah, I know all about that. Abandoning things until the next season! I think you are right about clustering. It could be the best way to go.

[@lejardindesdelices]

Bonjour et Merci pour ton honnêteté intellectuelle. Ces réflexions et la remise en cause est la seule voix pour s'améliorer tout au long de notre expérience au contact d'un sol toujours vivant. Bonne continuation.

[@ivyclark70]

Agree with splitting out brassicas into their own beds. I tried interplanting with spring onions, onions, cress, etc but the pests were persistent. However, I am still using polycropping by incorporating what I have read about square foot gardens whereby planting is in a grid format. This approach has helped me with keeping some sort of order in my vege beds.

[@REDGardens]

That is really interesting, I have also shifted to a square foot gardening type of approach, dividing the big beds into clusters (each about 2sqf) kzbin.info/www/bejne/p2G4ZH5pdrCMrtk

[@qtpwqt]

Spring is not as far away as you think , so this is a good video for preparing for the start of the growing season.

[@REDGardens]

Spring has already started over here - almost!

[@qtpwqt]

So over the last two weeks , an ice storm , 20 cm's of snow , then deep freeze , then 25 mm's of rain , and now -1 c and grey . What can i say , never a dull moment living here.

[@Hayley-sl9lm]

I've had the exact same issues, 100%, and I only have 1 bed in a community garden! Keeping up with harvesting, in order to thin properly, is so much work! And it requires SO much fertility. Not sure if you have weed issues too but I keep getting these shade-tolerant weeds (despite doing no dig) that slowly creep up and have to be painstakingly removed so as not to disturb the other plants. Wintering over too, the crowding made my arugula susceptible to leaf fungal issues. The one cool thing is that the dense cover from taller arugula allowed some tango lettuce to sprout in the middle of winter that I would normally only get in spring (but not that much).

[@REDGardens]

I do have weed issues - and failed to mention that in the video. Weeding a broadcast down bed is a lot harder than with rows of single crops!

[@ctwofirst6635]

Thanks for the deep and honest exploration of annual polyculture. I like to experiment and explore myself and unlike a lot of channels that just show how to start something, you also show the results so that we all can learn from them. My takeaway from this video is that I'm not going to try this method myself since your other plots seem more manageable!

[@andrewc7369]

Great vid. I never got polyculture. I could never understand how different plants could could accept other species so close. They are all in absolute competition.

[@thomascook3336]

Depends on the spacing. The plants are not completely in competition with each other except in the case of sunlight. Many plants actually share nutrient, support, and water resources once the mycelium network has been fully established in the area.

[@fuckgoogleandyou8779]

Thomas Cook yep

[@ctwofirst6635]

As long as you stick to no dig?

[@thomascook3336]

@@ctwofirst6635 ideally you shouldn't need to dig, but you can use a broad fork to lift roots and tubers from the soil without completely destroying the soil structure.

[@sonylimena2933]

Hmm.. thanks for sharing your perspective

[@HKLee-dn1fh]

I use a companion garden method in my 2x6 foot planter(24inches depth)- jalapeno peppers(2), tomatoes(2), sweet peas, kale, mustard, green onions and lettuces. Works great!

[@tim1tim2tim3tim4]

thank you for sharing also the fails. often from our failures we can learn much more than if something just works quite fine. i think the easier approach in your case would be to just mix as many families of plants together as you possibly can and spread the seeds with much larger distance. then you can leave most of the plants alone for longer. maybe there is some thinking needed. in the end some plants will have a good yield and some will not even grow much or die. But from this you automatically have the plants that work well together after one year then in the next year you know exactly which plants fit well together at least some of them. maybe adding some trees will give additional benefits. the more variety you have the more likely it is that you find fitting plants

[@REDGardens]

Interesting idea. I think one of my issues is that I am trying to get reasonable yields of the range of crops that I want, rather than just accepting what does well, as you suggest.

[@alcrz3943]

ive been doing lots of experiments with seed bombs for personal use gardening and farming. lots of the problem you brought up have given me a lot to think about when planning seed mixes

[@LauraTeAhoWhite]

Polycultures/food forests are complex systems. What I have found is that polycultures need a couple of things to succeed; the first being trees/shrubs or some other type of plant with a large complex root system, the second being allowing plants to go to seed (self seeding). The first year of the system isn't going to be that great, but usually after a season or two you'll find that you will probably have an abundance of certain plants spread out depending on your climate and soil profile.

[@monsterhunternathanultimat4114]

Nice vid! I underplant beans along with corn in the same raised bed, this is very successful!

[@REDGardens]

Sounds like that would be a good combination. Do you grow in a warm environment?

[@lkhfun6575]

I am curious what source instructed you to plant those plants together? (I will check to see if I missed one of your episodes.) Plants "in the wild" tend to find their own small patches of success where all the necessary conditions come together for them and live more as neighbors than roommates with other species. However, the channel Self Sufficient Me (Australia) recently shared how starting corn in the same bed as some winter crops, he was able to get a longer production of some heat sensitive plants. His approach is more methodical, which is understandable in a place where I would find the 24/7/365 season very overwhelming. I hope you check it out and keep sharing your progress as I have a very similar context to yours and am happy to avoid any pitfalls you encounter. :-)

[@ZoomZoomBoom24]

Mark from Self Sufficient Me has been instrumental in my family starting a garden this year. We have three small raised garden beds and so far, my black thumb has managed to kill most of the seedlings. Much to the disgust of my homeschooled teens, who have advised me to just sit and watch while they do the gardening. I'm a failure at growing things but my darling teens have had more success than I with small patches of growth here and there. I'm finding myself devouring every one who is a far better gardener than I in the hope that one day, I shall have a green thumb.

[@christopherstein2024]

Looks like this is a topic a lot of tuning can be done. I'm not growing anything and just follow this channel because it's interesting and I like to see tuning and the development of new methods to improve. Good luck!

[@thegretnaexperiment2.021]

Thanks for your thoughts on this subject. There is a lot to think about. 💗

[@markbest2044]

Have you thought about working out the densities you want to each plant before hand and then making different grids so plants have enough space? This would mean the bed has a mix of everything and there is not the same worry about crowding out. I'm not sure as such how you could practically plant like this but in my mind i imagine a large bed sheet with all the holes cut out and labelled with the respective plants.

[@Hayley-sl9lm]

I think that is a good idea, but seems like it would be pretty painstaking work!

[@markbest2044]

@@Hayley-sl9lm I think once the layout is done it's not much worse than planting with a normal uniform grid. The only thing is working out how the layout should be. This is a standard math problem in graph theory but it's not very hard and would take a couple of hours of computer programming to solve.

[@projectmalus]

Another thing to try might be having the polyculture in pathways and monocrop the beds, or have just a few crops in the beds. This helps avoid additional harvest time while still enriching the soil and providing food/habitat for beneficials. I haven't tried this yet but I see equal 30" or 3' paths and beds, with the idea that after a few years of cropping, the fertility has degraded in the beds and enriched in the paths, so the beds are now exchanged for paths. The plants in the path are allowed to mostly have a full lifecycle with some judicious control of the more aggressive types, and are allowed to mature, die and fall over. It sounds messy but really it's just the edges that need some control. Throw the weeds from the beds into the paths also, along with old veg plants.

[@davec3376]

Very useful and interesting perspective, thanks. Hearing your views on your planning methods and tools would be interesting

[@maplenook]

I’m doing polyculture!! Good summary. I’m enjoying it but I’m only feeding 3 people.

[@REDGardens]

3 people is enough!

[@flatsville1]

I recently watched a vid by a gardener who was attemting to keep a living root in the ground via intercropping cover crops with vegetables. It was all overplanted & shading out the vegetables. She was madly thinning to keep her vegetables alive. It seemed very fussy & time consuming. A weirder version of polyculture. Keeping a living root in the groud for soil life is more easily achieved with sucession planting IMO. There was one winning combo. Planting squash seeds in a ring of 4-5 established radish plants to ward off vine borers. They may have been field radishes, but it seems you could use garden radishes that may give you something to eat before the squash plant leaves overwhelm the radishes. It wasn't clear if the radishes were a sacrifice crop or not.

[@MeandYouHello]

Thanks for sharing

[@SteveRichards]

You’ve more discipline than me. I hardly do any poly culture now. I’ve a few things that work, but most of the time it’s just too hard to match growth rates, maturity times, harvest styles and pest management. The main ones I still use are spring onions & lettuce, radish and early brassicas, sweet corn and squash, green garlic & most things, strawberries and garlic/onions.

[@REDGardens]

Hi Steve, it is a hassle, but I am determined to figure out how to manage this garden. Interesting combinations.

[@SteveRichards]

Good luck, I find my focus shifting ever more in the 80/20 direction, 80% benefit from 20% effort, reading the comments from people who are all in on polyculture, it sounds like 20% of benefit from 80% of effort, so it will be interesting to see if you can turn that around : All the best - Steve

[@GGeloRob]

Sounds like a lot of work for the average family, good work keep it up

[@troyb4533]

The issue is that the more people do, the more there is to do. It's only alot of work because people feel the need to do so much. Part of my gardens are 100% autonomous with my doing nothing more than harvest and pathway maintenance. It literally started out as an experiment utilizing old seed and an area that wasn't being used. Now it's a lush, vibrant and productive plot that reseeds, fertilizes, self regulates weeds and weak plants, as well as pest and disease.

[@Chris-op7yt]

most home vegetable beds are typically polyculture by default and present too many individual problems, often reducing yield rather than increasing. if attempted to be done properly, you need expert knowledge on spacing, timing etc. so much easier to plant up a bed with all or at least large sections devoted to single vegetable. different vegetables competing for space and sun, tends to be a one winner outcome, no matter the pretentious literature that is more hypothesis than experience.

[@alisonburgess345]

I must check up on what the basic theory of polyculture vegetable gardening is. It sounds like a lot more hard work than the other methods. Interesting video.

[@REDGardens]

I have found that it can be a fair amount of work, but when it is done well it can apparently be very productive, with most of the work and daily tasks being harvesting (aka thinning).

[@ranchoraccolto]

I really look fw for your experience next year

[@REDGardens]

Thanks. I am too!

[@PaleGhost69]

Just a thought, but instead of randomizing your seeding what if you just created 'zones' around the big crops that let you plant in small chunks of small crop. Like how you can often see bushes in the areas between trees. Keep your planting deliberate and pay attention to how much time that section gets sun and from what direction to know what can grow there.

[@REDGardens]

I think that might be a much better approach.

[@thomascook3336]

The problem with classical understanding of poly culture gardens is that they do not fully comprehend the soil networks and complicated interactions between multi seasoned plants. Poly culture gardens do not do well with complete absolute harvesting of all organic mater and all crops in the area, but instead operate on the 1/3rd strategy, where only 1/3 of the biomass is harvested per season. The reason for this is the establishment of the soil organisms are so much slower than then the above ground crops growth cycle, and even with the introduction of bio active compost can not reestablish destroyed mycelium networks within only one season, especially if the soil got tilled. Also the companion planting chart works for plants within 48 inches or 120 cm from each other, so having a row of the non essential crop on the edges while the cash crop in the center of 5 foot, or 150cm wide beds is the preferred method. Hope some of this information helps.

[@troyb4533]

I'd agree with you, except my 1/8th acre of poly/perma culture doesn't agree. Per square foot, yields from my 100% autonomous poly/permaculture operation almost match those of my traditionally cultivated organic operation, with far less disease and pest pressures. 1/3 harvest is false. If I have 6 plants/sqf I harvest 5 and leave 1 for self seeding next season. I've been letting this area do its thing for almost 3 years now and every year flourishes better than the last.

[@prasannakumaryr]

Good stuff

[@wendysgarden4283]

Great info. Your adaptations to your original plan seem realistic to me. I quickly came to see in my own garden that full-out polyculture wouldn't be practical. (For one thing, I lose plants and confuse varieties, so don't learn all the lessons I should be learning.) I do short rows in one bed. But the tomato, potato, and squash beds are large monocultures. Unless everyone on the planet grows their own food, it also wouldn't work to feed the world. Market gardeners are functioning on small enough margins, and they need those long rows of a single crop, planted at the same time, harvested at the same time. And if everyone on the planet grew their own food, that'd be the only warm-weather hobby, because despite all the "you can do this in 15 minutes per week" claims I see on youtube, as a veg self-sufficient person, I spend nearer 15 hours per week in spring and autumn, including preserving time, and maybe 10 hours per week in summer, mostly on tomatoes. (I do wish someone would breed a tomato with tendrils! : ) )

[@REDGardens]

Thanks. I also have found that I lose track of things in this garden. I have become use to the separation between all the different crops, in nice rows or beds.

[@skashax777x]

It seems to me, a polyculture garden method would be best suited to an allotment type garden, where careful planning of intercropping is considered, for best results and being able to replace crops that are harvested with new crops, this does absolve the need for a strict rotation system as you grow 2 crops in the same bed in one season, this also means starting seedlings in prep of a harvest leaving a gap in the bed and keeping plants together that will thrive under the same conditions such as fleece or net protection, or like to climb etc, but then I guess I am compromising a little with a hybrid system, whereby you have a mini mono-crop close to other mono-crop bed or may not be true polyculture as the intercropping is still going to be of only 2 or 3 plants and when they are harvested they would leave a gap to be filled by a new crop. your vids are very informative and I enjoy watching them, as an allotmenteer, I do pick up a few hints and tips, keep up the good work RED

[@alexreith4877]

I've had similar issues with polyculture and square foot gardening. It's difficult to make sure some plants are protected while others are open for pollination. The whole idea of confusing the insect pests by mixing plants hasn't worked for me at all.

[@REDGardens]

Interesting to hear that you also haven't had much success with confusing insects.

[@sc0tt500]

I love the experimentation you apply to your gardening! If you don't try new things and make mistakes how do you learn? I think the major failing of the polyculture gardening is that all plants need a different minimum spacing to grow to their maximum potential so they are not competing for sunlight, nutrients and moisture. If other plants are within that area you are reducing the harvest. Broadcasting of seeds is a quick way to plant, but you are swapping it for more time taken to thin out the plants to make sure they are not competing against each other. I think the idealogy of mirroring nature is flawed as nature doesn't care if the majority of plants in a forest or field produce an amazing crop, it just needs some plants to do that, and its effectively the wild west of plants where the strongest survive. Humans on the other hand want the best harvest possible in the least amount of space with the least amount of effort. I've been growing with a "multiculture" methodology (I just made that term up - patent pending) where one or more meters of a bed are dedicated to just one type of plant using its optimum rows and spacing to produce the biggest harvest, mostly by transplanting seedlings to guarantee correct spacing (except plants that can't be transplanted like carrots) but there are multiple plantings of different plants (or the same plant but at different timings so there is production over a longer period). I think it gives you the benefits of the polyculture with the reduced efffects of a monoculture, and you can rotate crops within the same bed. :P

[@ctwofirst6635]

It kind of sounds like you're describing successional (sp?) sowing.

[@troyb4533]

Just because you can't do it, doesn't mean it's flawed. Maybe the only reason it's flawed is because of your mindset?

[@robertm4050]

I would like to see how you set up the poles for your peas you show at the end of the video. Always looking for an easier way to trellis beans/peas.

[@REDGardens]

That was the first time I tried that method, and wasn't overly successful.

[@youtuudodo]

Robert M have you tried cattle panels and a couple of stakes with zip ties. Works wonders for me.

[@robertm4050]

@@youtuudodo It is pretty hard to get cattle panel to my house. I had to rent a truck when I got 5 to surround 3 sides of my garden area. I have a couple things to try that I already bought, but always looking for easy.

[@PermaPen]

Ah, this is timely - just the thoughts about polycultures that have been swirling painfully through my own head! My polycultures have been cute but fairly unproductive. I'm planning to make one of my plots a divided area: a surround of shrubs with understoreys of perennials and polycultures, and a central strip of market-garden style beds, with companion planting as appropriate and some wildflowers at strategic points. So, a mix of the wild and the clean. Hopefully. Have you done any research into root depths, the combining thereof - i.e. planting together plants that use different depths of soil and so aren't competing so much?

[@REDGardens]

I have done a bit of research into root depth and try to incorporate it as one of the factors, such as with pairing carrots and onions, or beetroot and lettuce. Something I need to think more about.

[@chadeller5588]

For a polyculture to be successful, the plants need to occupy different niches. Vegetables are highly domesticated, and thrive under very unnatural conditions. They occupy overlapping niches. Polyculture works well for perennials (diverse sizes, nutrient needs, rooting depths, shade tolerances, etc) and perennial/annual mixes. It also shows tremendous benefits for cover crops (ensuring a subset of species will always be able to succeed in any weather conditions, nurse cropping slower germinating species, etc). You've demonstrated that it's very hard to do for vegetables. Intercropping is a path to success. If you're successful finding new pairings or trios, the gardening world will be much better for it!

[@REDGardens]

I agree. It is tough with vegetables, but I think still possible. The big issue is so little work and exploration has been done in this area, so there is so little to build from.

[@jeffmartin693]

I always learn from your vids thank you

[@REDGardens]

:)

[@LivingRedefined]

Everytime I watch any of your videos I get excited to make no rules compost :D

[@nonyadamnbusiness9887]

My observation of nature would suggest that there can be no one guide to companion planting. In nature even slight differences in soil, moisture level, growing season, and altitude change the natural balance between the same set of plants. The exact balance required to achieve a survivable level of pest pressure and maximize yield is likely unique to your immediate area.

[@REDGardens]

Well said!

[@VagabondAnne]

Polyculture seems tempting for sure, but I suspect that it works best with combos of annuals/ perennials, and herbs/veg. So, summer savory or chamomile in there with your cucumbers or potatoes next to your perennial kale, not say, lettuce and kale mixed. I have heard of some useful combinations, such as kale/winter squash, but those seem to be mostly about timing and space, not what naturally plays nice underground in the root zone. And, I think lots of things will grow happily next to each other, but I don't think that's really the goal in gardening, unless you are just doing ornamental plants! The priority really is what will grow really well in the space available, in a way that allows the gardener to work efficiently, and provides the most nutritious harvest in the growing season available. This might mean transplanting and weeding and mulching and harvesting a crop all at once, in some regions. It's possible that polycultures work best in the tropics!

[@regiodeurse6513]

I always plant my cabbages/kales in the same spot for 5-6 years now. They do great. Especially the more perrenial (most of them actually are if they survive second winter) do really good. The dutch boerenkool (dutch kale i think?) i planted this year doesnt grow as vigeous as the first ones i planted when i started the patch, but then again i dont feed them. I planted them arround 20 august when i received them as seedlings, and for that + the fact they've been shaded by bordering raspberries which i should've have cut down, ill still call it succes. They look great and are completely spotless, but i imagine in a commercial perspective it's a failed crop, because their current size. But then again you would have planted them in time. The new "tree kale"/ filderkraut hybrids that self seeded this spring have mighty big leaves. The crop that preceded them this winter died for the first time in years. We had a very exreme weather shift from + dubble digit to minus dubble digits degrees celsius in 1,5 week time. Flash frost / winter blitz that lasted for 2 weeks. After that the huge perenial mother filderkraut white cabbage (yes they are perrenial) being 3-4 years old, got a big nasty rot spot on a big new head. It and nearly all the other kale (the "actual" perenial kale) died, but one who survived and resprouted on a little tiny stem, that grew to a big new plant this season ( i let the stem fall over after flower, they resprout and clone themself by rooting where it touches the ground). But yeah new seedling plus new planted kale all grow well on that same spot where the dissease had it's way on my plant. But i feel like when plant are happy and cozy they resist these disseases, they are living beings after all. The spores are everywhere regardless. and when such a winter strike happens, well then it's naturally they get weakend and die from dissease. But they've been spared all this time , because it's situated in an kind of enclosed spot with trees and we have mild winters overal ussualy. I imagine in open field in the middle of ireland (right?), the crops have a hard time overal get battered by the elements. And therefor are more suceptible to dissease. Maybe in this context the aproach makes more sense i guess. But i personally believe it's, how you say that? Battling the waves, carrying water to the ocean? idk how to put it, but i dont think it makes much if any of a difference. again i believe the dissease spores filled every neech and crevivice in this place, they are just looking for the right victims and the right conditions. If i had your situation i put my money on establishing some surrounding trees and shrubs, especially facing north.MAybe put down some wind shielding fence, and make the surrounding "vacant" area "alive". i.e like a (natural feeling-)garden. I believe it does so much. A little love, comfort and niceness (to the area as a whole) does wonders, trust me. Just wanted to share this. it's great seeing you and your bussiness grow btw, dont you dare stop posting videos ; )!

[@philandhannahslittlefarm1464]

You are a master of data hahaa. Do you have a background in data collection and interpretation? I tried keeping a basic diary of our garden to keep track of everything and failed miserably. If you did a video about how you collect and manage all the data you collect I'm sure it would be very popular!!

[@REDGardens]

Haha ... "Master of Data" I don't have a background in this stuff, wish I did as it took me too many years to get it close to right. The data I collected for the first few years is not really useable, but lately it does take a lot of time. Interesting idea about the video, I'll think about it.

[@TheBigjay927]

selecting mostly perennial plants will over time reduce the amount of work while improving production rates. polyculture should help more in this situation. make those perennials more than just veggies............add perennial herbs, fruits, nuts, berries.

[@elizebethparker5412]

These are the very same struggles I have in my polyculture bed!

[@REDGardens]

Well, that is good to know, I guess ;)

[@thebraziliangardener8481]

at my home the only intercropping thats been working is the black bean-pineapple patch

[@REDGardens]

Interesting combination - what kind of climate are you in?

[@thebraziliangardener8481]

@@REDGardens 10b brazil

[@johnellis8401]

I'm not wild about the polyculture garden. The best crops I've personally been able to combine are cucumber and basil.

[@jonathon1368]

Is horse manure good for Pollytunnels

[@REDGardens]

I have not used it, but others have had good success with it.

[@nickthegardener.1120]

Have you ever tried the 3 sisters technique? Corn, peas and squash? 👍

[@REDGardens]

Not yet!

[@troyb4533]

Actually, growing in a polyculture. if you do it right. Takes virtually no work. I have a section of gardens separated just for this purpose. Every year plants reseed themselves in their beds, 10inch mounds, 36 inches wide. The plants that don't thrive are smothered out by the vigorous and only the strongest crops survive. The crop residues when the plants die back in the cold/heat feeds and mulches the soil, which also smothers out weeds and weak plants. Compared to the sections of my garden which are more traditionally cultivated, this area experiences very little in the way of disease or pests. With an insignificant negative impact on yields. This area is entirely autonomous, and produces almost as much per square foot as my cultivated areas. It also requires zero work aside from harvest and pathway maintenance.

[@christopheleblanc9175]

i almost always plant mixed, beds, (box beds) 3x7 here in nb canada zone 4b i plant onion and beets with my carrots, although i plant them dense ,more in rows or squares of same plants,, and never leave the thinning or munching thinning, tops in or near that bed ,,, they go to compost, and get buried straight away this i find control's the carrot fly issue,, as they are attracted to the broken carrot stems thus removing them completely while still benefit the compostable nutrients to re feed the soil later , i also , plant marigolds flowers with them ,, even though none need pollination to grow ,also watering the ground and not the stems them selves ,the closest to a mono crop bed i come is tomato s and flowers ,, normally 2-3 types closely surrounded with flowers , marigolds and nasturtium( edible bell flowers), which help make a ground cover to keep the tomato;'s off the soil , and both enjoy moist feet like tomato's .but at last with 2 feet of snow on the ground , i long for the rains of may to melt it away ,

[@GGeloRob]

Have you considered doing a hydroponic garden?

[@whatthefunction9140]

this systemless system needs systematic systemization.

[@REDGardens]

Haha - yep!

[@troyb4533]

That's the exact kind of thinking that makes it not work. The idea that humans can do a better job than nature. Just because you can't fathom the simplicity of such an autonomous and simple system, doesn't mean that system doesn't work. It just means your not letting it work.

[@regiodeurse6513]

@@troyb4533 so we gotta systemically desystemize the system of a systemless system, got it!

[@LachskoenigIV]

@@troyb4533 the plants we grow for food mostly wouldn't exist without human intervention, so claiming to grow a bunch of those species next to each other is in any way natural, and thus obviously superior, is absurd.

[@chanoone7812]

Ever considered growing hemp for cbd in you tunnels? It's not called the cash crop for nothing. Ther was a piece in the paper saying their asking for Irish farmers to grow it with a licence

[@girosmargara]

Desde españa ojalá se pudieran poner subtitulos en español, con mi poco ingles aun entiendo algo, pero no mucho!! Muchas gracias por compartir semejante clase!!

[@REDGardens]

I wish I could have subtitles in other languages, but I only have English. Glad you got something out of my videos!

[@TheActualCathal]

Do you share research data with other agriculturalists?

[@REDGardens]

No. No-one seems to be interested, yet.

[@RobertMiller-mq6jb]

Thank you for this thought provoking video, as always top class. I actually have a bit of feedback for you on your approach to the polyculture bed. I am still a relatively new grower but I grow at home in a 50m2 plot using the polyculture format and I find it really suits my way of thinking. And basically I think you are approaching this garden too much like the other gardens, despite the fact it operates according to an entirely different logic. Most importantly, you do not seem to have enough system plants, everything you are growing in this bed seems to be with the plan of a yield. You will not get the pest control benefits of a polyculture if you do not have plants left to flower and then senesce to attract beneficial insects and give them places to nest and you will not get the soil improvement benefits if you do not keep a constant intetcrop or underplant of green manures ready to be cut down when needed or if they start to compete for space. In my garden at least half of all plants are not intended for cropping but are there to support the system of plants around them - my personal favourites are clover, chamomile, comfrey, broad beans, bush beans, buckwheat and phacelia, all soil improvers and insectaries. Now many system plants also have a yield and in this case I tend to start a bed with a dense sowing, into which I cut patches to make room for crops to go in, leaving the leftover plants to crop themselves. For example, in your broad bean and potato interplant I would expand the system by starting the broad beans the previous autumn, underplanted with phacelia, then cutting down swathes to plant potatoes and leaving the rest to harvest, cutting down large sections and replanting with more broad beans and phacelia in early spring, then filling the gaps that emerge after the broad bean harvest with buckwheat, chamomile and bush beans and following the potatoes on with brassicas, again planted into gaps cut into the cover crops. I would then underplant the brassicas with clover and leave the system alone until they are finished - and don't forget to leave some of the cover crops to die naturally over winter to allow for the next generation of hoverflies, ladybirds, lacewings, etc . But do you see the point, that crops are only a small part of the system and at any time there are always nectar rich flowers, insect habitats and soil improving plants ready to chop and drop to make room and provide a mulch - don't forget to cover with a "brown" layer. Basically in a polyculture cropping system as I see it everything happens in the same space and the system provides for all its own needs at the expense of cropping intensity. Another thing, you seem to only be using annuals and a polyculture system is much easier to manage with perennials - especially when seen more like a food forest with layers of trees, shrubs, herbaceous perennials, etc. If you are going to stick with annuals then I suggest planting out module grown seedlings as much as possible (other than for the cover crops) - in my experience it saves alot of work and makes for much easier planning/planting designs. Also I find cluster planting suits this system much better than row planting - I tend to plant everything either in drifts of 3, 5, 9, or 12, just my preference. As complicated as this system sounds it actually takes very little work, as the plants do nearly all the work for me, leaving me to just raise seedlings, cut back the overgrowth and harvest the yields. Anyway I'm sorry for going on and on and I hope you find this thought provoking. Keep up the good work :)

[@REDGardens]

Thanks for all that detailed feedback. Very useful stuff to think about!

[@BassSeduction]

I hesitate to say because your own conclusions are nearly the same but I just received my copy of Richard Perkins' book and a passage about context comes to mind so it seems the poly culture you have been practicing doesn't fit very well as part of managing 5 odd methods as its such an outlier in approach. Right outside your door and personal are i think pretty key for a pragmatic use of this context. Many thanks for the vigilant work and fine detail when sharing results it has been a huge boon

[@rulerofthelight]

Polyculture in my experience, in not about productivity. It's only purpose is providing diversity and habitat to enhance growth nearby.

[@REDGardens]

Wouldn't the one of the main purposes of "diversity of habitat and enhanced growth nearby" be to positive affect what you can get out of the gardens, i.e. productivity?

[@rulerofthelight]

@@REDGardens yes you'll get more production from other parts of ones yard but as for polyculture itself is efficient for a market gardener. There's no consistency. I practice polyculture around my production spaces and anything that it produces is just bonus. I'm highly encourage seed thowing, let plants go to seed, then take handfuls of seed and toss them to the wind so they land everywhere but where you garden.

[@calinradulescupro8390]

Hi there, I've watched your channel a number of times, and find it very inspiring and insightful. However, I think you might be going about polyculture the wrong way. In terms of Permaculture Principles to be applied, I think the most important would be the Energy Audit. More precisely, your energy audit. Start small, so that the failures can also be small, and extend on the successes. This way you waste the least amount of time, which is the most valuable resource. Second, 20%-30% of the area should go into windbreaks. I see you get that quite a lot, and it will always be a problem in terms of stress on the plants, pressure from pests (which might be deterred easier if that permanent windbreak is habitat for predators). That windbreak can also feature mulch crops, to be cut down regularly, it can represent habitat for birds that bring in Nitrogen and Phosphorus in the form of manure, and will keep (at least some) insect population under control. What you lose in terms of planting space, you gain in terms of efficiency and more productive plants. Overall, you don't lose production, plus the time you spend on gardening choses will be reduced. Thirdly, what are your strategies for water harvesting and irrigation ? That can make such an impact, if you get things under control. Using mulch can reduce water use down to 10%, plus the windbreak will also reduce evaporation. And lastly, it's still polyculture if you just plant long beds of your plants of choice. Interplants I mean. Companion planting, beyond the table that I also use, is only useful once you discover niches - which will be determined by the trials you make.

[@REDGardens]

Calin Radulescu Pro Thanks for the input - all useful stuff. If I was staring this garden again from scratch I would definitely follow your advice and start small and expand with experience, but I am already well into it, so more a process of adapt and change as I stumble along. The windbreaks would definitely help, though I’m probably not going to add them in this garden, as I want it to be more comparable to the other gardens. Or I’d rather not add another variable into the exploration, even if it would be more along the permaculture approach. I guess I don’t see this as a ‘permaculture’ garden, or it isn’t a demonstration of good permaculture approaches and methods, more of a companion planting basis. But I am thinking of transitioning my neglected perennial garden to much more along those lines. One concern that I do have about introducing perennial windbreaks and plants is that they can overshadow quite a bit, and here in Ireland we need as much direct sunlight as we can get. But, definitely worth exploring a better balance between sun and wind.

[@dukereg]

Your scale is probably larger than a lot of people with successful little backyard polycultures. I'm not sure where you are, but if your climate is similar to Scotland's, you might get some information out of the Integrated Pest Management movement that seems to be going on there.

[@stonedapefarmer]

My best beds have always been more mixed up. I've really suffered the last couple of years by trying to be more "organized" in the face of the pandemic. Where are your grasses and legumes in most of these beds? See Dr. Christine Jones and the Jena Experiment for the benefits of growing 4 functional groups together. Plants compete when they're grown too near other similar plants. When they're grown near dissimilar plants, they cooperate via fungal networks and the soil microbiome. You need way more variety, not less, and a good mix of grasses (corn, sorghum, teff, millet, oats, wheat, rye, barley, or ornamanetals, etc.), legumes (beans, peas, chickpeas, lentils, lupine, soy, alfalfa, clover, cowpeas, etc.), tall herbs, and short herbs. This increases photosynthetic efficiency, which increases root exudates (quantity and diversity), which increases microbiology (quantity and diversity), which improves nutrient cycling and confers many other benefits (the most diverse mixes survived several weeks of flooding in the Jena Experiement.) Also important to save seed, or allow things to self-seed, because A) those seeds are already inoculated with the local microbes/exudates, B) the genetics and epigenetics in those seeds allow them to adapt to the environmental conditions and growing conditions that are employed. Joseph Lofthouse has a great talk on Agrobiodiversity that shows examples of plants adapting to the methods employed by the grower. Expect store bought seeds to do poorly, but improve over the course of 2 to 3 years as they adapt to your conditions.

[@REDGardens]

Interesting stuff, thanks for the recommendations.

[@ashleyhavoc1940]

Liked and commented for algorithm.

[@thebraziliangardener8481]

policulture is suposed to be growing things that do well together,not just throwing seeds and praying

[@REDGardens]

True. I do try mix compatible types, but it is the thinning and density that has been a problem for me.

[@thebraziliangardener8481]

@@REDGardens one strategy i have used is planting plants with similarities together,such as radishes that grow fast together with arugula and lettuce,beetroot for me has done well when planted with slower growing carrots and even brocolli,cauliflower .

[@BlaBla-pf8mf]

The benefits of companion planting are wildly exaggerated and mostly unproven. For example there is no evidence that amerindian "three sisters" agriculture meant companion planting, instead of separate beds. There are also widespread misunderstandings about nitrogen fixing plants, who will actually use the nitrogen themselves if they are allowed to fully grow. I don't think polyculture is a viable method. Even in nature, at least in temperate climate, we don't see a large variety of plants sharing the same bed. The boreal forests are the biggest forests on Earth and have very little variety.

[@REDGardens]

I am not sure that I disagree with any of your points - I am open to the possibility that this method is simply not viable enough. These are all issues that I also feel are likely exerted. I have come across studies that show nitrogen passion to other plants, but not aware of the amount or effect. Your point about temperate climates is an important one, I think.

[@flatsville1]

Re nitrogen fixing plants peas/beans. Yes. They must be terminated before flowering. They also the need to be innoculated before planting to pass nitrogen to near by plants. They are at best a sacrifice crop. Of course you can eat tender pea/bean leaves & vines at the grow pre-flower.

[@starshot5172]

Hey RED, I have been watching a lot of your videos recently, and I would like to give something back for the extreme amount of information I got from your videos and how much time, effort and attempts this saved me. I don't have a huge income, but I would definitely want to donate €20 to you once. Is that possible? Again, thank you so much. Our climates are quite similar, so I can learn a lot more from these video than other videos, and that really means having a successful harvest for me.

[@REDGardens]

Hey, thanks so much of rite supportive comment, it means so much to me that other people are getting a lot from my videos! Also, thanks for the offer to donate! This project is mainly funded by lots of small contributions. The easiest way would be to use the www.paypal.me/redgardens account I have set up, which is easiest for once off donations, if that works for you?

[@michaelraubenheimer8354]

I noticed that you are not taking advantage of a variety of certain weeds and other non-edible but beneficial plants that would help diversify your polyculture garden. In my opinion polyculture can only be successful when as much diversity as possible is encouraged in the beds, more species than you can count on your fingers at least. The aim of polyculture is to a large extent to mimic nature, and therefore, the beds must also evolve into larger perennials and eventually trees, requiring less and less maintenance so that new garden beds are created for purpose of soil building first and foremost, and as a by product food.

[@REDGardens]

Yea, you are right in a lot of ways about polyculture, though I don't necessarily think that they need to include trees. Polycultures could come in many different forms, and the people I copied focused entirely of annual vegetables, and were not really focused on the 'mimicking nature' part of it all, more a method for increasing productivity in a vegetable garden. For now I am sticking with that type of approach for this particular garden as I think there is a lot of potentially and I am interested in how it compares to the other gardens. I would be very interested in developing another growing space that explores more of the issues that you talk about.

[@joebobjenkins7837]

Leviticus 19:19 thought shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed

[@toom8rs15]

An application of common sense would have gone along way. Inter planting crops has very limited application or use. Agriculture on any scale is not natural. At some point there has to be a viable return on resources - time - money invested - Control IS the solution to many if not most grow problems. All I see is a flawed concept poorly executed. " EVERYTHING IN ITS PLACE SAVES TIME - ANGER - AND WORDS " Thanks for sharing . I guess.

[@REDGardens]

It does seem that intercropping has very little application, and I do wonder how much of that is because there has not been nearly as much research and development into the possibilities. Given how much formal R+D, as well as informal trial and error that has got into developing the methods that are in common use these days, it is a bit of an unfair comparison. But perhaps you are right, control may be the solution. I agree it was poorly executed, though I am undecided on whether it is a flawed concept.

[@toom8rs15]

RED Gardens Having tried my hand at market gardening for quite some time my experience leads me to conclude that plant stress is the precursor to insect and disease issues Deliberately intermixing food crops that have a host of different requirements and the subsequent competition for space,sunlight,nutrients,water etc is a recipe for unmanageable plant stress. It doesn't hurt to push the parameters of accepted practices , I do that as well. I came off a little harsher than intended Thank you for sharing your observations. I know that both context and scale play a large roll If there is some value to this approach I'll leave that for others. There are a lot of well intended but misguided people in this industry. My good intentions have never solved a problem. Sticking to the basics is a good starting point IMHO