PONTIAC - "The Super Duty Story" Part 3 of 3

[@ponyyak68]

Thanks for posting! Pontiacs in the 60's had The Right Stuff !

[@Martmns]

In the end, the Pontiac division went from "engineering" and building "excitement" to "badge engineering" and building "excrement". A sad end for a once glorious and iconic marque.

[@DanielLopez-tb2fl]

Sad

[@toddburgess6792]

My brother had a 63 Tempest 326, 3 on the floor transaxle thingy in the late 60's, then he had a 70 Formula 400 4speed in the early 70's. My dad had a 71 Bonneville 455-2bbl(!?), and I wound it out with a 73 GrandAm 400-4bbl 4speed. Drove a 71 LeMans wagon cross country in 80, slapped that motor into a 68 GTO bracket racer and it's probably still being traded around. We loves our Pon-yaks o yes we do.

[@richardhoepfner1633]

When I was 16 we bought a new Bonneville convertible, It was Midnight Blue with a white top and interior. It had a big blue 421. Sadly I was never allowed to drive it,

[@1967PmdGto]

@bg147 Well the SD421s were rated at 405hp and everyone knew they put out 500hp easily. Another of my videos dyno tested a stock restored SD421/405hp against a stock restored 409/409hp. The 409 was about spot on at 409hp, the 421 near 500hp. 421s in tanks would run 11s/12s with crap tires of the day. The mildest SD421 had 11.5 to 1 compression. Mildest cam 308/320 duration 470 lift, solid. SD455 8.4 comp, smog EGR valve, hydraulic cam 301/313, 407 lift. Genuine low 13 sec cars stock.

[@jeremythompson9895]

The 421SD is the baddest production engine ever built by Pontiac. The only Pontiac engine that could top it was the Ram Air V but the RA5 was never installed in a production car

[@sssclassic]

pontiac is a big history in general motors i have trans am 1980 with ls2 engine 450 hp i am so proud to have this car its my dream

[@bluesky-ud9wg]

I love the Ford 427 but the SD 421 was an animal in the lightened cars

[@joefreeman9733]

I remember the early 60s. In the late 50s and early 60s the MOPAR383s 413s and 426s ruled the street. Not only were the engines powerful in the 60s the MOPARS were smaller and lighter.. They had the best a utomatic in the business and a tough rear end. They generally were quicker on the street than the ⁴09 Chevs or 406 Fords. I personally n e ver saw a 421 Super Duty Catalina or Bonneville on the street rscing scene. In Southern California or south Texas. Probably because they were ungodly ecpensive to build . I did s r e some road tests on a couple and the results of these tests and their performance at the drag strip and in NASCAR made it clear tha t the 421 SD engines were putting out a LOT more than the c laimed 405 hp. Some years later I witnessed dyno testing of a pro built 421 SD Pontiac engine on a n accurate dyno. The engine after all tuning twesks put out 491 hp. Not bad and aboutc20 percent more than the clsimed 405 hp. The engineers in 7 years took the samev287 block from 247 c i and w 80 hp to 421 c.i. and 490 hp. Pontiac shifted from race cars for the street with its SD program to the hot car for the street with its 1964 GTO. Itvwas heavily promoted but not really that fast after the Chevy 396 hit the street in its middized cars and its Camaro. And the long rods made them less than durable over 5500 rpm. Max hp at the timecwas around 360 compared to the 375hp....actually 425hp.... 396 Chevelles. Also the CHEV II SS in 1966 was perfectly capable of blowing the doors off the GtOs. If you had one of these Chevys and put the 365hp solidlifter cam lifters screw in studs and correct valve springs you got a nice solid 365 hp engine in a much lighter car that could happily rev to 6500 rpm and live. GM POLICIES at the corporate level virtually destroyed all GM brands ex ept Chevrolet. Because of badge engineering deliberste cheapening of their cars and failure to rapidly adapt with new engineering and more efficient designs in power trains. And downsizing their cars. The only division that didnt suffer as much was Chevrolet... m because it was the bottom of the product line up in price. . And the platform and engine that the other divisions were rebadging. Example the Cad Cimarron which was basically a Chevy Ii somewhat tarted up. At the end Pontiac and Olds werent building excitment or Rockets. They were building sh.tty lirrle dreadfully slow and ugly cars that were overpriced compared to their Chevy counterparts that they were clone from.

[@extramile150]

awesome...

[@MikeFlynnHITF]

thanks for posting this , it was great watching due to the fact that I`m building the Arnie "The Farmer" Beswick`s '62" Catalina 1\25 model and have question`s about the interior or lack of, it does`t make sense to me that he had the complete interior in the car , especially when their drilling hole`s in the frame to reduce weight , any pointer`s in sending me to a site that shows the real car would be appreciated, I`v been on this damn computer all day looking with no avail

[@markcrampton5549]

'62 Didn't have Swiss Cheese' frame. That was in'63. NHRA dictated full stock upolulstry.

[@SGTJDerek]

What I never understood about the "racing ban" is how come Bunkie didn't change it when he took over GM.

[@robinluck2922]

It was dictated by the government, and it was a "gentleman's" agreement with Ford, Chevrolet, Dodge..ect.

[@overcastfriday81]

www.pontiacv8.com/blog/2018/9/14/gms-infamous-racing-ban-of-1963

[@mikeskidmore6754]

Well @SGT JDerek @Robin Luck GM had 53% of Domestic Auto Sales.. The Government was threatening to break GM up .. Win on Sunday sell on Monday .. GM did not dare to sell any more cars then they were already.. So why spend money on racing ? Anything the Government gets involved with gets messed up .. ! There is a whole nother story with John DeLorean Era..

[@mikeskidmore6754]

@@robinluck2922 www.chevyhardcore.com/news/the-history-of-gm-factory-backed-racing-on-off-and-on-again/

[@danielmauter1737]

SGTJDerek. Congress wanted to break up GM. YOU have a board above a president. They rule. Congress was after GM for 15 years before that. Middle '50s already.

[@SnepperStepTV]

I know the uploader probably won't see this, but if anyone else is watching this part and going "hey is the audio out of sync?" Yes it is

[@1967PmdGto]

Ya I know how irritating that is. Especially when I uploaded this 14yrs ago the words were in sync, but ytube changes things on the site as technology changes/improves etc, they didn't used to have ads is just one of dozens of things and that can cause video play problems. There's been so many changes that at one time I think the words got in sync again on vids like this, only to be thrown outta sync again later.

[@jeffjoseph]

Great VID one mistake no Leather Interior " Naugahyde " Fancy word for Vinyl. My 60 Cat Ventura had 3 shades of Maroon Naugahyde absolutely gorgeous. Quick with 318 Horse 389 Tri Power. Loved that car Maroon Ext Pretty Body Style. Traded for 64 GTO Quicker but not as nice a car as my 60.

[@jeremythompson9122]

I love Trans Am's and GTO's but I'm 6 foot 4 so I'd rather have a full size performance car like a 61-63 389 Tri Power or 421 SD Catalina or a 64-66 Catalina 2+2 with the 421 HO and a 4 speed. The 60-61 389 Super Duty Catalina's are awesome cars too but they're even more rare than the 421 SD cars are I think. The 67 Catalina 2+2 was a nice car and I really like the 69-72 Grand Prix SJ/SSJ too

[@glorialotz3333]

61's had thick leather that cracked when it got older if you didn't treat the seats every so often. My experience was a '61 Bonneville convertible.

[@jameshollis3656]

Bad Ass Engine 13 two 1 on the streets ,the lemans was the prototype for the GTO and I right huh.

[@1967PmdGto]

The 73/74s were rated at about 290hp net, which would be probably 380 if rated in gross. Which 380 would still be underated of course. Many sources say the very low compression SD455 was making 425 honest hp on 87 octane. And don't forget the torque would be much higher than other engines of the same hp. If you put a 455 block under SD421 parts, it should do as well or better. The cam though much milder than a SD421, is the same identical specs as the 69-70 RA3 cam, good cam, but streetable.

[@ryanford726]

Why isn't the 1962 Pontiac Gran Prix Tri-Power 428 4 Speed Super Duty mentioned ?

[@1967PmdGto]

Well technically the SD421s were all dual quads, and also a minimum of 11.5 compression, some were 12.5. All out race engine rated at 405hp but put out more like 500hp when you consider it ran 11-13 second quarters depending on car weight, axle ratios, driving etc. What you were talking about is the streetable reliable daily driver 421HO tripower rated at around 370hp and 10.75 compression

[@ryanford726]

@@1967PmdGto what I'm talking about is not a 421. I'm talking about the 1962 Gran Prix Tri-Power 428 4 speed . Only 16 were ever produced. It's known as one of the rarest Gran Prixs in history.

[@1967PmdGto]

@@ryanford726 well one one of my points was your ''428'' mention. I have been screwing around with Pontiacs since the mid 80s and am not aware of any 428 BEFORE 1967. Now a 421 tripower 4spd GP would be rare enough, and 16 produced would very possibly be in the ballpark for a 421 tripower 4spd GP, but not a 428.

[@ryanford726]

@@1967PmdGto you may want to do some research because there were three engine sizes that came out in the 1962 Gran Prixs which were the 389,421 & 428. There were only 16 Gran Prixs produced in 1962 that had the Tri-power 428 Four Speed.

[@1967PmdGto]

@@ryanford726 Check with dozens of Pontiac experts/sources like Butler Performance, Wallace Racing, Nunzi etc who also post engine casting numbers, head numbers etc for EVERY engine and every year, and you'll not see a 428 before 1967. Or just ask them out right about that special application in the 62 GP and see if they've heard of it. Those sources are experts enough to also know rare stuff where only a hand full of stuff was produced. It is not listed in any manuals or online manuals as a Pontiac engine in 1962 or before 1967. If someone says I'm wrong or you can supply me a direct link showing literature of this rare 428 in 62, please do so. Now the 428 is popular and in doing a search you'll find 62 GPs with 428s but the engine is not original. I know wiki is not accurate enough to 100% decide something as right or wrong, but in this case they happen to be right about the 428--> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontiac_V8_engine

[@SANDMAN1996SS]

Did they mean powerglide trans or what is a power shift trans?

[@joeyadams517]

SANDMAN1996SS Pontiac had a experimental Trans axle, look it up on Wikipedia, there example of explaining will be easier to understand than me explaining it to you, it was a Funky thing that was only used a few years in the early 60's in the Tempest & Lemans, put it to you, this was it was the only American car I ever knew of that you checked the Transmission fluid if it was a Automatic in the Trunk that's where the Dipstick was located, for real .. as I said, they Only used the (:Transaxle ) for a few years before switching out to the popular 9.5 ring gear live axle that looked like a 9 inch Ford on Steroids, & it was a Super hit it Never Broke & everyone was looking for one to buy outa, a Junkyard to use in there Hot Rod because they were Indestructible.. & because of that they never used the ( Transaxle );again. .. Hope that Helped. . But still look it up on Wikipedia for a more in depth description ..

[@josephlaperuta1124]

Joey Adams you should have told him to see the film My Cousin Vinny and let Marisa Tomei explain it in court.

[@Martmns]

Basically atwo Corvair-type Powerglide planetary gearsets coupled together to give four forward speeds, with a 'manual-shift only' valve body and instead of a torque converter, a conventional clutch and flywheel, which was only used for launching the car. Shifts were made without touching the clutch, under full power, at wide open throttle, simply by moving the shift lever.

[@eddieschwab864]

@@josephlaperuta1124 "and because both cars were made by General Motors, both cars were available in metallic mint green?"

[@bg147]

Were the later 73-74 SD 455s in the same league as the 421s? In other words, were they legit?

[@jeremythompson9895]

They weren't quite as radical as the 421SD because they were hampered by low compression and smog equipment. But the 455SD was the real deal. A 73 455SD Trans Am was capable of mid to high 13s. Way quicker than any other American car built in 1973. It was really the only legit muscle car you could buy in 73, besides a 340 Plymouth Duster/ Dodge Dart Sport or a 340 Cuda/Challenger. The 73 Ford Torino Gran Sport and 73 Mustang Mach 1 were really nice looking cars but not all that fast with a low compression 351 CJ. The 73 GM Colonnade performance cars(Chevelle SS454, GTO, Olds 442, Buick GS) were good looking too but not very fast

[@daleostrom3613]

@@jeremythompson9895; Someone forgot to tell Pontiac that the muscle car era was over with.

[@jameshollis3656]

I mean Tempest. Lemans wagons .

[@overcastfriday81]

The GTO is the first muscle car. Because Super Duty Pontiacs never happened. And Max Wedge Mopars never happened.

[@overcastfriday81]

And the Olds 88 and the Hudson Hornet, and Tucker with 372 ft-lbs of torque(!) never happened.

[@jeremythompson9895]

The 55 Chrysler 300 and Dodge D-500 we're the first American muscle cars. The first American cars to have 300 horsepower since Duesenberg in 1928. The 49 Olds Rocket 88 was fast for its day but they only made 180 horsepower. The Hudson Hornets were fast too in the early 50s but made less than 200 horsepower I believe

[@paulplack490]

The original definition of "muscle car" was a mid-size body with bigger engines from the full-size line. It was not a horsepower threshold, and it doesn't mean there were not quick full-size cars. That original definition is why the GTO is considered the original muscle car. The earlier 421 Tempests don't qualify, as they were not production cars. The only earlier car I know of which might challenge for "first" under the original definition was the 1957 Rambler Rebel, which put the AMC solid-lifter 327 4-bbl from the Nash Ambassador in the "compact" Rambler Super. Those cars would run in the 14's with a four-speed, but the styling and compact size didn't capture the imaginations of most performance-oriented buyers in '57. So the "Goat" it is!

[@overcastfriday81]

@@paulplack490 Super Duty was a part package sold in 61 that owners had to install. In 62 and 63 Catalina owners could special order a 421 Super Duty. You didn't need sponsorship or a race license to do this. It was more commonly done in 1963. Similarly, a random guy could order a Max Wedge car. Owners received all kinds of warnings about it being impractical on the street. That's the kind of muscle car you want in your collection.

[@overcastfriday81]

@@jeremythompson9895 Don't forget the mid-size F code 1957 Ford. IIRC they had 300 hp.

[@1967PmdGto]

@bobyoung53 Great car the G8, if you haven't already seen it, see my video of a road test on the 2008 G8. watch?v=7e2L6UTjhJE

[@mercmarc]

Pontiac no more.