Portuguese Planning Refused! What Happened & How To Avoid It. Life Reimagined

[@TiagoNelsonIPB]

Don't give up on the project. Talk to your local representative, which would be the Presidente da Junta de Freguesia. Have him on your side, explain the project to him and the measures you are taking to ensure you are keeping the area safe, let them know you have a lake and a clear area for helicopters to take water from in case of a wildlifire, let them know you are cleaning the area, etc. Having the Presidente da Junta de Freguesia on your side is one step closer. Also you should ask for a meeting with the Presidente da Câmara and do a presentation of your project. In more situations than none, those project papers don't even reach the mayor's desk, it's other departments that handle it, so he may be pleased to know and understand your project. Talking and exposing your project to them IS the best way to handle it, don't go the judicial way.

[@silviameneses4313]

I think that is the best solution

[@maggietaylor9713]

Excellent advice

[@jasontaverner2634]

In Portugal, never take the word of Architects (or other professionals) or the Camara WITHOUT legal documentation to back it up. Everyone will always say "no problem" until the time when they have to sign a legal document and then suddenly it becomes an issue.

[@jamest5149]

Same in Spain 🇪🇸

[@lsvmuk]

In UK, always involve a solicitor when one is dealing with properties. We did not do that at one point and we were seriously penalised for that reason.

[@rhafaarnedo]

In Portugal and every other country, it´s common sense...

[@korbyndean1535]

you probably dont give a shit but does someone know of a way to get back into an instagram account?? I was dumb forgot my login password. I love any tricks you can offer me!

[@Carolinapetroska]

YES THEY ALL LIE TO MAKE A DEAL ! NO CONSCIENCE. NEVER TRUST PORTUGUESE PEOPLE, THEY ARE NOT PROFESSIONAL

[@teresapacheco63]

Here is a great Taoist story explaining how the judgements we make as to whether something is good or bad are often only true for a fleeting moment. In the grand scheme of things there is neither good nor bad. Things just are. Once upon a time there was a Chinese farmer whose horse ran away. That evening, all of his neighbors came around to commiserate. They said, “We are so sorry to hear your horse has run away. This is most unfortunate.” The farmer said, “Maybe.” The next day the horse came back bringing seven wild horses with it, and in the evening everybody came back and said, “Oh, isn’t that lucky. What a great turn of events. You now have eight horses!” The farmer again said, “Maybe.” The following day his son tried to break one of the horses, and while riding it, he was thrown and broke his leg. The neighbors then said, “Oh dear, that’s too bad,” and the farmer responded, “Maybe.” The next day the conscription officers came around to conscript people into the army, and they rejected his son because he had a broken leg. Again all the neighbors came around and said, “Isn’t that great!” Again, he said, “Maybe.”

[@thehouseofdreams]

I absolutely love this story!!!! Maybe. :)

[@mikedeman5351]

One of the conscription officers said 'Since we can't draft your son into the Army, would it be OK if we used him for target practice' and the farmer said 'Maybe' . . . .

[@franciscoafonsoferro5568]

Mas os agricultores chineses não comem os cavalos todos? :-)

[@joaomoedas1702]

Being Portuguese and owning land/property in a rural area, I can say fighting a legal battle with the Municipal authority is a waste of money and - most importantly- time. Legal disputes in Portugal can take years to be resolved. My advice would be to try to work with the câmara and adapt your project to the existing law. A project that doesn’t require construction of ‘permanent’ structures has often less bureaucratic requirements and could be a solution (glamping, safari tents, Arabian tent/like structures are becoming very popular solutions).

[@Life.Reimagined]

Thank you city guru. Think we need to explore these options more given peoples comments

[@MichelangeloR23]

@@Life.Reimagined Hi, I was going to suggest something similar too... such as yurts, safari tents on wooden decks and the like, tiny houses on wheels... there are many options to still create something wonderful for tourists... as well as for yourselves. And I look forward to coming to see you both one day when I come and look for my own land over there too. You've done so much already, be a shame to stop now Best of luck... You both deserve it :)

[@ab-ym3bf]

Forget about yurt and glamping tents if you are not allowed to build on the land. Impossible. Others have failed in this as well. You need to have a camping license for that, and in the Algarve a new camping needs to be at least 4 or 5 stars, meaning a lot of requirements that one doesn't want when starting a glamping eco resort thing (Bar, restaurant etc). Portuguese law is not equipped for new market developments.

[@annashealthylifeeverything8583]

@@ab-ym3bf is it allowed to live in a yurt on your land if you have a ruin built before 1950?

[@LBBrown414]

Beat advice so far 👍

[@laracondesso5340]

So sorry for that... As a Portuguese I am embarrassed to see how long it took, and how deceitful the whole thing seems to have been... But hang in there, I'm quite sure you'll find ways of making it somehow, turning this into a different, but still wonderful, project! Sending strength and hope.

[@carloswell27]

Welcome to Portugal, land of burocrats and lawmakers. It s easier to make a law to forbid, then to create rules to help a beautiful zone evolve.

[@meineliebste]

burocrats! funny yet true everywhere!

[@robertling9872]

In countries like France, Italy and Spain you had to pay the contactperson from the building permits an amount 'under the table' to get the building permit in a few months. A good architect knows how to play this game. Wish you good luck.

[@robertling9872]

@@paysage1617This reaction is up to ypu. I have seen it with my own eyes in France...three weeks later all the permits where signed...just oil in the burocratic engine and it speeds up...

[@robertling9872]

@@paysage1617 find a good architect who has the right connections they know how to play this game

[@LiLBitsDK]

I like Italy's way better than paying bribes... a Horsehead in their bed if they don't hurry stuff up and get it approved right away... it usually speeds things right up... ;-)

[@michaelrck]

Actually in my professional experience in Scotland with Planning Departments it is the same sort of dialogue. All pre planning applications are always "Agreed in Principle". Then when Full planning is submitted all sorts of issues arise and permission is denied. What you need is a Planning specialist. Usually these people are ex planning officers who have set up a private practice and know all the rules and how to argue your case. They are worth every penny in my experience. Maybe they have similar experts in Portugal. Good Luck!

[@claratherese8747]

I am so sorry to hear this. Keep in mind that in this moment court in Portugal is 70.000 cases behind because of Covid. Its a big chaos right now.

[@IntegralEarthling]

Well, this is a bit classic for Portugal. Câmaras & government is very frustrating as the bureaucracy is not managed by people that have a reductionary perspective of why these fire have become more & more of a problem. They actually don't really want people to go live off grid. You guys are doing great! Super happy that you are sharing this information! Much Love, Karsten 🥰🙏🏼

[@melopd]

Stay positive. Beeing an eco-frindly project should be a good point for your cause.

[@Life.Reimagined]

Fingers crossed!

[@sunnycampers4249]

Wow! Heartbreaking for you both. Glad you’re staying positive 👍 thank you for opening up and we’re looking forward to positive news for you both 😊

[@nataliabrown4417]

This is heartbreaking but I'm so pleased you are going to stick with it and keep going! You would think that the Portuguese council would want to encourage projects like yours so it's a real shame they would deny you planning permission. My partner and I bought a watermill ruin last October and will hopefully have plans drawn up and submitted by our architect by the end of the year, but it's likely it'll take so much longer. I completely understand how much you have put into your land so far (emotionally, physically and financially!) and I really hope you can get something approved in future or find a middle ground with the camara. Love how positive you both still are - keep going! Looking forward to future videos from you both.

[@andrejkmet777]

Sorry to hear. Keeping fingers crossed. Following several people with dream of developing their life in Portugal and i always considered you guys most professional. Hope all goes better for you.

[@Life.Reimagined]

Thanks Andrej. That's the kicker really - we did all our homework. Bought the books. Hired lawyers. Talked to the Camara soooo much. No one mentioned these changing fire regs along the way so we didn't know they were coming. Biggest hope with this vod is that it brings awareness to others

[@girlscoutFWB]

I wish you all the best. You both are strong, got your head screwed on right and I like how authentic you share your project with us. I don't know anything about Portugal, but I would stay away from legal cases. My experience is they cost a lot of money, a lot of energy, take heaps of time and the outcome can be questionable. There's some great advice in the comments and I keep my fingers crossed for you!

[@theindieprojects]

Things will work out for the best stay strong and keep positive you are doing an amazing job ❤️

[@grahamhardyvanlife5704]

only if they change there whole plan lol.

[@amdnabill]

Very useful video as I was going to the same project. but after I saw your troubles I changed my mind and thanks for the social media and word of mouth that saved me and may others I am sure ❤️

[@twitchlazy]

That is a real bummer. I appreciate you guys and learning about the process. My wife and I are interested in trying something similar and it is good to know all the issues to look out for.

[@Life.Reimagined]

Feel free to reach out if you have any questions. Good luck hope your dream come true too x

[@lolitabonita08]

this is a great lesson for all of us who want to purchase land in Portugal...i guess the route is to record (voice and written) what is going on with the meetings, asking specific question in writting, and cross all the t's so if in the future there is an issue u will have the powder gun to defend yourself with the legal resources and fight and win.

[@loualves1235]

Hi guys, I just started watching your videos and I love what you're doing with the land especially the water harvesting. Portugal desperately needs nature conscience people like you. Please don't give up on your dreams and keep looking forward while being patient. We moved to Portugal in 2003 to live a simpler life but we lost focus, grew impatient and returned to the US. Now I regret it everyday. I hope everything works out for the best and would definitely love to stay in your resort some day. p.s. Have you tried Algarve Addicts? Maybe he can recommend someone that can help.

[@paulogarciadesousa]

Honestly? Don’t waste your time and money on filing a case against the Câmara. Focus your amazing energy and your other resources in selling that piece of land and finding something that fits your projects. Good luck, guys, you absolutely deserve to make your targets come true. 🙏🏻

[@Carolinapetroska]

Yes sell and try to find a better more trustworthy and fun country.

[@lollypop2413]

Good advice

[@roguemayhem3651]

Who will want to buy it now? Plus all hard work they put in, destroyed! Tyeir huge money they spent wasted! The nightmare of diing it all again and risking the same outcome? Bulgaria is the place, property prices still amazingly cheap!

[@reservedarmadillo]

God you guys are so amazingly positive. We were close to doing something similar but were scared about exactly what happened to you and other things. Incredible effort abs thanks for the channel!

[@MsKayla130]

So sorry to hear about the câmara rejection!!! I sure hope they change their position. Stay strong!

[@Life.Reimagined]

Thank you!! 🙏

[@anadossantos1429]

Stay positive ❤️😊 Everything happens for a reason Things will work out for you guys ☺️

[@riorimac4304]

I would NOT waste any more time, money, and energy on filing a case against the Câmara ... Either, sell your property or change your plans and embark yourselves on a different business. "What seems to us as bitter trials are often blessings in disguise". Oscar Wilde

[@scottanderson9656]

Dump some tires on the property, along with raw sewage and walk away. F-them.

[@srica7366]

@@scottanderson9656 Are you a renter? It's their land, they own it. Walk away from their investment?

[@scottanderson9656]

@@srica7366 Wow, nothing like an idiot commenting ages later. Hey dumb f. renters have rights just as property owners do. Don't throw good money after bad and don't deal with people, entities that are obviously deceitful.

[@NewRemonTV]

Good luck guys. Never lose hope!

[@DesmitskesUnplugged]

From our experience : this is typical Portugal at the moment. We love most things here, but the bureaucracy is not one of them. A lot of rules and laws the last years, while they were more relaxed before. The last year showed it too.

[@Life.Reimagined]

Its more been the speed. We understand the laws. But we put a lot of time and money into getting the plans right only to be left on a desk for 18 months until they became invalid. Hopefully the digitisation of these beaurocracys will help speed up the process in future,

[@palmajm5333]

@@Life.Reimagined Don't get high hopes on this. Public administration here is an outdated and slow bureaucratic mess. Our services are years of light behind regarding digitalisation. Your best hopes for this case is to find someone well connected with the câmara and perhaps he/she could speed up the process. If don't approve your build permissions it's your problem, but if they approve something dubious like this it's their problem in case this go bad in the future, so that is why this kind of stuff rambles around without any end, nobody wants to put their neck on the line.

[@angelaroberts1305]

Hi there. Sorry to hear of your problems. We had allsorts of issues geting a project licence, it has been a 5 year nightmare, not unusual here unfortunately. We got there in the end and just squeaked in before the new fire laws. When we were turned down we went to the camara and I cried my eyes out, told them we could not afford to move. It seemed to affect them? We also had a very determined architect who worked with the camara lots and suggested we reaply just before xmas (and under a different name, the first was in mine - our current is in my husbands name) when everyone would be in a good mood and it worked. We also initially applied for a new build and reapplied for a rebuild, even though we knocked the ruin down and have got a new build. If you can appear to fit into just some rules it will help the camara. So maybe worth a go? If you have no luck you could rebuild the ruin (or footprint) and live on your lovely land or get a rebuild project set up to make it easier to sell? Also I know some camaras are fighting the new fire laws because they do want immigrants to move to their areas (central area), so it might change in the not too distant future. Best of luck.

[@escapetosicily5440]

We are so sorry to hear about the refusal. You are still young and beautiful, you can do whatever you dream of doing. Wishing you lots of strength and joy while achieving those dreams!

[@andremasterpereira]

Everything is rejected the first time. Ask you architects to schedule a meeting in the Câmara. Worked for me.

[@amandaroberts5111]

I think they said they did that and nothing came of it.

[@silveriorebelo8045]

they like to bully people, and perhaps want money undert the table - corrupt folks

[@petercrossman5402]

Hi guys , thanks for sharing your story , I am looking into buying some land in Portugal so very helpful near Prainha

[@grahamyoudell4105]

Someone somewhere unfortunately is waiting for a large brown envelope...... it’s not just Portugal based... sorry to hear about your issue...

[@tiagobarreiros]

I was heartbroken to hear this news... I was following your project with great expectation. I think we have a lot to work as a country to simply procedures and support good practices that can regenerate the land and the community. I really do believe it all comes down on education and changing the way we raise our children. I have been trying to speed good information on a similar subject (tiny houses) but there is a lot to learn even as a Portuguese about local law and how to get things done. I hope you can find a solution for your problem. Legal battle with the CM can be even more frustrating I imagina. But I just don't know what is the best way unfortunately. All the best!

[@alexandrelopes1420]

A few years ago there were some big fires in Portugal and it shacked with the politics. Which overall is good in terms of safety, unfortunately for you it just came in the wrong time. If in the future you guys decide to present the project again a small advice would be to search in the village/town, who is the arquitect or the engineer from the Camara (city hall) that works in aproving projects... usually those people also have their own business making the projects and that means that when the project goes for aprovall it will be aproved, fast and easy... You may need to spend a bit more money but the result is way better :) Hope you guys find a good solution!

[@Life.Reimagined]

We really truly understand the fire safety concerns. We are more disappointing that our plans were sat on a desk for 12 months before it was law and no one looked at it. Then after the law still took 6 months to deny ...all the while we were talking to camara and they never said any issues, just that was taking time because of changing people etc. Regarding the fire safety though I am genuinely concerned this will have the opposite effect. If no one can build now in these areas then no one can farm. All that will happen is they will be left to go to ruin and fires will speed through country side. Needless to say less than 1km away a company just bought the land to plant a eucalyptus plantation which was allowed. Thank you for watching and commenting. I do think we've just been unlucky really. Might be a costly mistake for us...but for now we keep trying till all hope has gone 🤞😊💸

[@Life.Reimagined]

And thanks for the comment about the planner! That's gold! If we build again I will defo remember that one!!!

[@MagicEquus]

This is devastating. I am so sorry for you both. I hope at the end something positive comes out of it!

[@asiaticonaeuropa]

Thank you very much for sharing your story. I know you are both very dissapointed. I really wish you both a more successful project in the future. So the lesson I have learnt here is: Never put your money down if you cannot be 100% sure. It gets even worst when things get involved with the bureaucrat in Portugal. I never feel comfortable when putting down the money to buy property in Portugal, I'd rather rent and even pay a bit higher for better rent. I am so scrared of the portuguese process, so just rent and enjoy the food and weather, it makes less headache....

[@ozbizbozzle]

From my experience with planning in the UK, it may make sense to get into the mindset of the Camara. Whilst planning looks like they have the power and u are trying to cross that line of approval, it's actually more like a dance. They are probably concerned that lives could be lost if they were to grant u permission and they are covering themselves. On the positive side it seems u can still live on your land and probably have woofers and work on infrastructure and possibly with help from the Camara's concerns help to mitigate what would happen in the event of a fire which I would say will be very likely at some point. Sorry if u have thought of all this. I just hope u have enough resources to get by until some change happens.

[@LIFE_1966]

aarrrrrrrrrrrh. so sorry to hear that news. Lost for words !!!! Puts you off moving there.

[@luispinto8625]

I’m so sorry for you guys. Portugal is an incredible country, but it has a lot of logistic problems. The burocracy is terrible problem. I hope you follow thru your dreams.

[@Life.Reimagined]

Thanks Luis. We hope so too. We love it here and truly call it home now. We were looking forward to building a business and raising a family in a few years but might be a little delayed now :)

[@hetbrun7002]

The west coast and areas north / inland have a cooler vibe for a reason. Younger people seeking a more “alternative” lifestyle have been drawn to these areas for years now, initially due to the generally lower property prices / greater choice, but increasingly because nowadays there are sufficient like minded people to have created actual communities and lifestyles. I’m referring to areas such as Aljezur, Odemira or the Santa Clara reservoir area. These areas are not nearly so densely populated and the local municipalities tend to be more welcoming and flexible about ideas like yours, as they want to encourage new businesses there. These areas have beautiful landscapes which allow more freedom to expand. They have local farmers markets and there seems to be a really friendly, genuinely rural community vibe. You shouldn’t think that property prices have necessarily gone past your budget. Sure, if your access to properties is only through trawling agent’s websites then you’re bound to reach that conclusion. It’s in the agent’s interest to keep prices artificially inflated. But on the ground, talking to locals and connecting with the actual sellers directly (without intervention of agents) you will find that many people are desperate to sell. Even online you can still find land, farms and lakes in these areas for the price of an apartment in the Algarve, and that’s before you start negotiating. www.miravillage.net/imovel/quinta-com-casa-rustica-recuperada-santiago-do-cacem-1323/?rid=17869665 www.miravillage.net/imovel/quinta-com-varias-ruinas-odemira-1320/?rid=17685806 www.marcelapropriedades.com/property-for-sale/ruin-aljezur--ref_rc228/21889 www.marcelapropriedades.com/property-for-sale/ruin-monchique--ref_rc217/21736

[@ramirorosa2377]

Unfortunately the zoning rules have changed in almost all Portugal, due to new laws. For instance: I own a large property where before I could build (the previous PDM allowed to build villas); with the law that was approved about a couple years ago, the PDM has changed and now I can only have agriculture in it. And the Câmara Municipal is not to blame for the change, it was the change in the law that mandated to all PMD’s to comply with it...

[@davegoodwin480]

I have been cycling past your property for many years. It used to be more tranquil with wildlife. Now not so. I wonder how people can use words such as "eco", "sustainable" or imply they're somehow working "with" nature when we all know that just about any human intervention, let alone a tourist resort, is bound to have a negative effect on the local nature. I am not blaming developers. We all need to earn a living and a small tourist resort is a perfectly valid way to do this. But I am pointing out the hypocrisy that these terms imply. I notice more agents listing properties with the suggestion that they are suitable for a certain lifestyle. This is misleading. I would advise to be more careful that the property you buy really is suitable for the business you intend to use it for. A business or simply a home: these are two very different agendas.

[@mikedeman5351]

Be strong. Stay positive. All will be well. The darkest hour is just before dawn. Keeping my fingers crossed for you . . . . .

[@Life.Reimagined]

Thank you

[@amartyabag3678]

Will semi permanent structures like geodesic tents or glamping tent work under the guidelines? May be creating fire lines and other fire mitigation techniques help in the application. Check what is allowed under the guidelines.

[@speakingupforpointmolate4670]

This is why it's super important to hire a Portuguese attorney to help you with legalities and documentation. I bought two properties in Portugal, and I'm super pleased I had an attorney to make sure everything was in place legally before I made my purchases.

[@Life.Reimagined]

We had a lawyer.

[@shallamac8208]

Sorry to hear about this, again and again here in Portugal. People sell off their land as soon as possible just to get money. Sometimes they know the right people in the right places to play along and the sellers loose. In 24 years i have heard it plenty of times. And after Covid, a lot of people are seeking land for Natural / Eco living. Foreigners have the money and locals know it. Sad.

[@uberraschtedame1510]

PART 1 of 2 Please read this to really know what lies behind everything, a hundred years ago there were no massive forest fires in Portugal and Spain, yet more people lived in the rural areas and used fire everywhere for everything... it is a long article but it is full of insight. The beggar's gaze December 9, 2015 Eucalyptus: The disappearance of the Atlantic forest. Emergency! Filed under: ecology - Beggar @ 4:01 translated from a Spanish article: "La mirada del mendigo" "Eucaliptos: La desaparición del bosque atlántico. ¡Emergencia!" Without being tedious, allow me to introduce you to the large species of the Atlantic Forest. Its base is the Quercus genus, mainly the thousand-year-old oak, a sacred tree for the Celtic peoples, under which ceremonies were officiated. In transitional areas, it alternates with other siblings and cousins: the old holm oak, the plump cork oak (the tree best adapted to Galician pyromania) and other smaller oaks: the Aleppo and the Cerquiño. In the eastern area, from a certain height, another legendary tree reigns: the beech, which, with the maple, bathes autumn with colors. In the shadiest areas a living fossil remains, from when in the Tertiary the temperature was more temperate and humid: the yew. On the riverbanks, alders, hazelnuts, poplars, and various types of willows guide the river, protecting its course. A tree that is able to withstand the terrible cold of Siberia also grows on our land: the birch. Also the Christmas holly resists the stubborn frosts and the lack of winter light, and without losing the leaf or the composure. The mythological laurel, the medicinal elderberry, hawthorn and acerola, ash and rowan, boxwood and ... These are the columns that support this temple of biodiversity, under which grow a huge variety of species of herbs, shrubs, mushrooms ... and that give shelter and sustenance to an endless relationship of animals, from bears, wolves, roe deer and wild boar to beings microscopic, but as necessary to build a complete ecosystem as the first. This is a compendium of what the native Galician, Asturleonian (in the header photo, Muniellos), Cantabrian or Basque forest offers us. The natural setting that gave rise, particularizing them, to cultures that, more than a thousand years later, have not yet consumed their fire. But all this is in danger. In fact, the further west you look, it can be said that of these native forests almost only the memory remains. Deforestation to gain farmland and pastures and, after emigration to cities, the introduction of short-cycle alien species, such as pines (native to the Mediterranean region, but here invasive) and eucalyptus, native to Oceania, are reducing the extent of our forests to annihilation. It is no exaggeration, and anyone who knows these lands knows that I am not lying: the eucalyptus trees are spreading rapidly, from the coasts they climb up the slopes and are colonizing the entire territory. The situation is extremely serious, an absolute ecological disaster. All the biodiversity that the Atlantic mixed forest contained is being replaced by eucalyptus, eucalyptus, eucalyptus, eucalyptus, eucalyptus, eucalyptus, eucalyptus ... (pine, pine, pine, pine ... in the interior). There is nothing comparable in terms of biodiversity loss on the Peninsula; no ecological disaster is so serious because of its size, intensity and irreversibility. Fighting against this systematic destruction should be priority number one, and number two, and number three of any citizen or organization that calls itself an environmentalist. (this photo is also taken in Asturias) Let me provide a few data from the latest National Forest Inventory. The measurements were taken between 1997 and 2007, they are already quite out of date, but I take the official data knowing that the situation today is worse. In this province, Pontevedra, at the time of measurement there were 7.65hm³ of eucalyptus, 11.56hm³ of conifers and 3.67hm³ of native species. In other words, the native forest already represented less than 20% of the wooded area at that time. A decade later, the figure will be even more meager. But this province is saved because they decided to include in it the Deza region, the Lalín area, which due to its cold climate resists the New Zealand invasion (not exactly from the All Blacks). The rest of the province is a sea of ​​eucalyptus dotted here and there with houses: the landscape of Galician ugliness. By the way, I'm sorry to give the figures in that rare unit, cubic hectometers of wood. I would like to give it in hectares occupied by each species but, in this latest forest inventory, they do not give that data disaggregated by species; they only distinguish between conifers and hardwoods, counting eucalyptus as one of the latter and adding it together with oak, holm oak or beech. The situation in the peninsular corner, A Coruña, is even worse. 4.01 hm³ of native species, by 17.33 hm³ of eucalyptus and 18.42 of conifers. That supposes that they had depleted the native species until reducing them to 11.2% of the forest mass! When the first Forest Inventory was carried out, back in 1975, they recorded 1.89hm³ of eucalyptus, so you can get an idea of ​​the progression it has had in those thirty years. Today? It can be said that the province of A Coruña lacks, with minor exceptions, any natural value. Even if you visit the Parque Natural das Fragas do Eume (it burned a short time ago, perhaps those of you who are not from here that will refresh your memory), you will see that most of the surface of the "Natural Park" is made up of ... eucalyptus ! The island of native vegetation is limited to the gallery forest along the river, ten meters beyond its banks, the ecological value to be zero. Yes, null, as it sounds. Pick a random place on the map of Spain that is not urbanized. A pasture in Salamanca, a Mediterranean pine forest (here yes, autochthonous), an oak grove in the Andalusian mountains, even the thyme and rockrose from a La Mancha field harbor more biodiversity than an Asturian or Galician eucalyptus. In Brazil they have a term to refer to these monocultures: or green desert. It may sound contradictory, but it is a wise paradox to refer to those lands occupied by only one species; Being foreign, and being cultivated in a monoculture regime, it does not have an associated ecosystem of its own (to understand us, they brought the eucalyptus but not the koalas). They are silent plantations, without birds that sing or rodents that move their leaves when they sneak away. Monotonous, because very few plants manage to adapt to the new soil conditions created by the eucalyptus leaf, which lowers its pH. Looking for mushrooms? You waste time, some A.muscaria and little else. Seeking contact with Nature and entering a eucalyptus forest is as absurd as wanting to go out and go into a cemetery. Reforestation with non-native species is by far the greatest threat to the Atlantic forest; much higher than the much more media fires, because a burned forest, over the years, decades, regenerates naturally (if there is not the repetition of fires that occur in the South of Galicia). But by introducing eucalyptus (or pine), they will quickly take over the roof of the forest, depriving the slower-growing native species of light and definitely preventing the regeneration of the forest. And this evil, unfortunately, is not exclusive to Galicia. The ecological state of the North of Portugal is one of absolute devastation, between fires and repopulations. Special mention should be made of the Asturian government, which promotes tourism by selling a supposed natural paradise, while legalizing the planting of other species of eucalyptus, more adapted to the cold than E globulus. The Asturian government, an example of ecocidal cynicism. Or the Cantabrians, who, by the way, already have more eucalyptus (5.85hm³) than oaks (4.72hm³). To establish a parallel of what the legalization of these crops implies (indeed, they are promoted with subsidies), imagine how absurd it would be for an administration to promote the introduction of the zebra mussel, the tiger mosquito, and the American red crab. It is not that the gray squirrel is more or less nice, because it is an adorable animal. Why then does it represent an ecological threat? Because it displaces the native species, the European red squirrel, altering the ecosystem. It is ridiculous that children are taught that releasing an exotic species in nature (turtles, parrots ...) poses a very serious threat to the natural environment ... while the administration, the main ecological criminal, promotes the introduction of invasive species until they are covered total territory as in the North. Why does the Ministry's invasive species list include mimosa, and not eucalyptus? Such discrimination has no ecological basis, but of course it is economic. The reason is to supply raw material to the processing industry, in the case of eucalyptus the pulp industry, which is the buyer of practically all of the eucalyptus wood. There is a direct, symbiotic relationship between paper mills and eucalyptus trees, if ENCE did not have its plants in Navia and Pontevedra, Galicia, Asturias and Cantabria they would not have more eucalyptus trees than any, as a natural curiosity, in a park or botanical garden. And if an ecologically responsible government prohibited forest crops of foreign species, these plants would have to close due to the shortage of their raw material.

[@hetbrun7002]

Think of this setback as a lucky escape. The property is in an Algarve coastal municipality. This means that the planners tend to be less flexible about plans like yours as there is already so much pressure from development schemes. The area already has it’s influx of expat retirees and golfers (Morgado golf nearby) so is likely to be less amenable to your sort of venture.

[@gianlucalampugnani2111]

do the Pip before you buy properties to rebuild or if you have plans to present in the municipal chamber

[@Life.Reimagined]

Yup, that’s what we did. Still no guarantee though apparently 🥴

[@jasenlakic5033]

sorry to hear about that guys :( It's also possible you are just doing things the proper way...too proper. Simply put, somebody could be blocking you and is expecting of you to offer money under the table to make things happen. I have seen that happen in Croatia...

[@aynos629]

Very disgusting but possible. Still, it has to be a legal way round

[@krittiya22]

Sorry to hear about this. Have you guys got any updates on the situation?

[@Life.Reimagined]

Not really, we are still discussing with the Camara, had another million things we had to do in order to get the permission. Things take forever and the rules constantly change so it feels like a neverending story and a game that can’t be won. But we are still fighting! 💪🏻

[@marinepeye8118]

It is already difficult to find trustworthy architects and lawyers. Fighting the "Camera" in courts is maybe a bad idea. We are in a state "before" buying land and learning fast. That drives all parties involved really crazy. Estate agents are part of the problem as they advertise land with false statements or promises, just to please unrealistic sellers. Our advise is to learn as much as you can before getting serious and look for "trustworthy" lawyers and architects who are knowledgable and tell the real truth before lruing a client into chargeable (and at times hopeless) activities. Good luck to you guys! I could now write a book about this. I found a nice quote related to this kind of problems: "The Portuguese legal system has the speed of a dying snail".

[@m.j.debruin3041]

Mabey with sprinkler system around the property, to keep it moist in the dry time , mabey even in the surrounding area.

[@aintnobodygottime4dat]

All the best for the future ✨

[@ab-ym3bf]

After the recent new PDM I noticed a change in the classifications on land in my area as well. All hilltops are now red. Which in my case is strange since the tops are where there are no trees on my land. Seems more like an automated computer program attributing a classification. But whatever caused it, the classification stands. Your approach towards CMP however was wrong. Don't ever even give the impression they did something wrong, so telling them that they had to follow the legislation at time of submitting etc has turned them against you instantly. Don't go to court, you will never succeed and even if, after years of legal struggle, the judge finds in favor of you they will find another stick to best you with. But you will never get what you want. Best approach in my 3xperience is to ask for a meeting, say you are in shock and do not know what to do anymore and what advice can the Camara give to achieve the goal or what alternatives are there to start something as close as possible. Always ask for advice, never tell them you know better. Play the stupid foreigner, not the know better foreigner. In your case might I suggest to ask the câmara if it is an option to have the fire brigade do an assessment of the actual situation or what changes have to be made to make it possible for the Camara to give permission. Might be an idea to ask CCDR-Alg or Min of agriculture in Patacao (depends on the classification of the land) as well, but be careful with mentioning them. They are not always very fond of them at your local câmara. Good luck from someone who has had a plethora of start up problems in the Algarve as well.

[@65LORDBYRON]

"Always ask for advice, never tell them you know better. Play the stupid foreigner, not the know better foreigner. " Excellent advice I do/did exactly the same in Paris, London, and Amsterdam, Because the truth is in other countries normally we are "stupid foreigners" about rules, regulations and the way and the why they change

[@rouman7]

It’s happening everywere now , I am in Spain. And they have similar restrictions . ( andulucia) but the problem in Spain and Portugal is everything is done at a snails pace ..and I have noticed how they hardly change there minds once they have made a rule .. good luck with your project. It took me over a year to rip out and remodel my place loads of paperwork etc. ..lots of hassle , but it’s done now. Also different lawyers say different things. And it cost you money if there wrong , not them. I am a elect engineer , and. Some of the stuff they came out with was ridiculous .. but I keep getting reminded it is not the uk ..

[@SailingLearningByDoing]

Thats such a bummer guys. Stay positive, things will work out.

[@Life.Reimagined]

Cheers Vern 🤞👍💪

[@lewiscast3753]

I was born and raised in Portugal and very proud of it, but at the age of 25 I left my country and came to Canada, just because of all the Bullsh** our portuguese government put us thru. I been living here for the last 30yrs, still love Portugal but I don't even think about going back to retire. I visit every 2 or 3 years. after moving here I had to get some portuguese documents and visited our embassy in Toronto and it was run in totally and utter chaos, and that was the last experience I had with Portuguese bureaucracy. Best wishes.

[@nygardenguru]

Good to know

[@kennethschmidt4330]

Thanks for sharing this!

[@Ria_beetroot]

Talk to the president...Portugal is full of love & possibilities...Best community in Europa. ..connecting & doing the Best for the Planet. ..

[@Esporadamoita]

Rebuild what you have and later make extensions time to time. Very common here in my country when we have camaras rules to stop new construction and the government always changes rules in the end.

[@Life.Reimagined]

Yeah people keep saying this to us but it’s too risky. We don’t want to base a business on something that doesn’t have a permit 😬

[@ironfistarrival]

Life in the British country side is sooo beautiful, the nature in England’s country side is so Fantastic..

[@quinosonic82]

7:23 make a full video about that! I'll watch it, and many more, I guess. And of course I wouldn't recommend bribing anyone. That's wrong. Very effective, but wrong.

[@RitaO.]

I am watching this today, 2 years later, and wondering how you resolved it?

[@Life.Reimagined]

We didn’t. We are still in the middle of it and hoping that our latest round of revisions and negotiations with the council will suffice. Wheels of bureaucracy turn slowly and with each revision the find something new or the laws change. We are still positive though and just getting on with life in the meantime! Once we have more news on the project we will start producing more content again!

[@kohtime]

Do you mind me asking what price bracket your land was in and how much sq m to ended up with. Me and my wife are looking and we’re starting to think some of the cheaper bits of land are a bit too risky and maybe we should buy something with existing buildings or slightly larger ruins. On a second point would you know if you have to rebuild the actual ruin or can you rebuild a farmhouse of the same size offset from the existing structure? Thanks in advance for any info you can provide. Do you feel the language barrier may have hindered your progress with the camera?

[@Life.Reimagined]

Price was 90k (with pip) for 1.6ha 15min from coast. Ruin was supposed to allow up to 1000m for turismo rural but we applied for only 450m2. Ruin had to be restored and used as centerpiece...couldn't be moved. All other buildings had to connect to ruin also via raised walkways or pergolas.

[@davidplopes]

Great Video, thanks a lot, can you share the document that you are reading? please! do you have in it the law decrees? Regards!

[@timdunkley5176]

Hi, I’m a planning consultant in the Uk, so my advice would be talk to a Portuguese planning consultant before you go down the legal route. It sounds like your PIP was pretty conclusive and should carry some weight. Sometimes architects don’t understand the planning side fully. Alternatively, are there any more temporary options you could explore: yurts, cob houses or mobile homes? Good luck. Happy to discuss further if you want. Tim

[@munckmb]

That sucks guys! Stay positive, it will get better!

[@Life.Reimagined]

Yeah we will! not something we would have chosen but a great opportunity to learn about our selves! Thanks for watching

[@munckmb]

@@Life.Reimagined We got screwed as well, in the promissory contract two parts of land should be urbano but one was rustica and in a REN. So we are also in the midst of 'now what'?

[@Life.Reimagined]

So sorry to hear that! Is the other part that is urban usable? Hope you find an answer or can sell it again quickly

[@neuroniuans]

Sorry to hear about your disappointment :( But as you keep your minds open perhaps some other opportunity will come out of this. All the best!

[@Life.Reimagined]

thanks for your kind words

[@cristinapiscis2025]

I just started to following you, I'm sorry for this outcome. Nevertheless: I'm not sure if a ecoturism resort is a good idea for the next future. The world is changing a lot... If I had the chance, I would try to create a permaculture, etc. community, off the grid and as independent as possible from the system. I think you are doing well with your mother, and I would be open for other people to join you. At any case: Good luck!

[@uberraschtedame1510]

PART 2 of 2 And now, having exposed the ecological problem, I explain the urgency to act that I express in the title. As I have said, after the closure of the Huelva plant, ENCE now only has two paper pulp processors: one in the Navia estuary and the other in the Pontevedra estuary. To the latter, the concession on the land it occupies expires in 2018. For decades there has been a neighborhood movement calling for the closure of that plant, but now we are reaching a critical moment, a few weeks that can alter, without a hint of exaggeration, the face of Galicia for the next few decades. It's now or never. The decision to extend the concession is, with the articles of the new Coastal Law, the exclusive prerogative of the central government (the drafting of Cañete took into account the situation of this plant). The only firm defender of the continuity of the paper mill in the estuary has historically been the PP (curious fact: who must ensure compliance with environmental legislation is, curiously, the wife of the director of the plant, take chestnut!). And seeing that the legislature is ending and that it seems impossible for it to revalidate the absolute majority, it can sign a new concession in the weeks that remain until the elections, or even with the government in office. Said concessions are made for periods of 60 or more years and, at least whoever writes this, does not expect to be in this world by the time that concession expires again. And I would like to see my Galicia catch her breath before I exhale my last breath. The alternatives are very simple. If ENCE leaves Galicia, the main buyer of Galician eucalyptus wood is withdrawn from the market. The Asturian plant would remain, in addition to the Portuguese one in Viana do Castelo, but the withdrawal of demand from the Galician plant would produce an oversupply that would lower the prices of eucalyptus wood. Eucalyptus wood is very cheap, and a good part of the cost would be carried by transport costs if it had to be taken to Portugal or Asturias. All of this would dramatically undermine the profitability of eucalyptus, seeking other alternatives for producers and, as a consequence, remitting the eucalyptization of the Galician mountain. The other alternative: if a new concession for the Pontevedra plant is approved, ENCE has assured that it intends to expand its capacity by 184,000 extra tons of paper pulp (the paper, in case you don't know, is not manufactured in Spain, we only we destroy our forests but the pasta is shipped and the process of high added value, and the profit, is carried out in civilized Europe). We would therefore be in the opposite case, a greater demand for eucalyptus wood would raise prices and introduce an incentive to further extend eucalyptus crops (with the new species more resistant to cold, colonizing the space that remains, the Asturian mountain and Cantabrian and inland Galicia). We are simply risking the lives of our forests. And that match is going to be played in the next few days, a few weeks. That is why I beg you to increase the pressure on the government as much as possible so that it does not sign this extension. Find out about the matter, write about it, spread the information among your acquaintances, whatever comes to your mind. They are also your forests, defend your right to be able to come here and enjoy them, what remains; to trust that one day your children will be able to know an Asturias, a Cantabria, a regenerated Galicia, with Nature in a better state than our parents left it to us. Or those forests could, if we fail, be irretrievably lost, subjected to the unavoidable logic of the market. That the Popular Party, or the party with which the next legislature governs, will not be free to destroy our land. Let him know that the bill will be very expensive, the discredit is tremendous; It is the only way we have to force his will. The only argument for the permanence of that plant contaminating the Pontevedra estuary (now much less, but many of us have ended up in the emergency room for eating seafood caught the day there was a spill into the estuary: heavy metal poisoning, contamination that is accumulated forever in the riverbed) is to preserve jobs. But really, what is destroying jobs is the very existence of the plant, since the presence of this plant has a huge opportunity cost both in the surroundings of the estuary and, above all, in the Galician coastal mountains. In addition to the traditional trades of fishing and shellfish, only in the tourism sector the damage caused is much greater both in economic and labor terms than what is contributed to society. Pontevedra is known by those who visit us for being a city, yes, very beautiful but… it smells like a sewer. As soon as the wind comes from the sea, which is very frequent, the image of Pontevedra is damaged by its bad smell. The landscape impact on the entire estuary is enormous, affecting neighboring towns that, after its closure, would benefit from the creation of new jobs derived from a more attractive environment (no one thinks of going on vacation to a place with these views ). (Note the "decoration" of the factory, in an attempt to dress the monkey in silk). But the main benefit of the closure of the plant is many kilometers from it, in the uninhabited villages from whose mountains the eucalyptus trees grow. The climate of these coasts is privileged to grow all kinds of crops, with much greater added value than eucalyptus. Eucalyptus is a crop for lazy people, because it is planted and you don't have to return to that plot until fifteen years later, when it is time to cut. After cutting, you do not even have to plant again because they sprout again from the foot, and wait twenty years this time, because the land is depleted and the trees grow slower and slower (sometimes arable land, fertilized and enriched for generations to be able to give tomatoes, corn, potatoes to support a family ... they are occupied and weakened in the course of a generation by a grandson without respect for his land and his past). In this way, with a cultivation that hardly requires labor, the villages are depopulated until they fall into abandonment. How different it would be if part of those lands, the best ones, were used for pastures, or the cultivation of fruit trees, vegetables or legumes! Very labor-intensive crops, but profitable because they are much more productive, which would create tens of thousands of direct jobs, plus many others in the associated food industry, setting population and generating wealth in a rural area that is now abandoned. It is the so often demanded need for a spatial planning: agricultural lands, to be worked and obtain the maximum benefit from them; we have a land and a privileged climate to feed half of Spain. And the forest land, reserved for native species. If in the former the criterion has to be the maximum benefit, in this the guideline must be the conservation of the environment and respect for biodiversity. But it is also that well-preserved native forests can provide a complementary wealth, as our European neighbors teach us. There are other countries in Europe in which the forestry sector is very important, Austria, Finland, Slovakia, Ukraine, and all of them take advantage of its wealth without having to commit the ecological crime of introducing alien species. The two main Austrian economic sectors are forestry and tourism. Proof that, by acting intelligently, you can maintain a beautiful, well-preserved environment and obtain economic returns from it. Neighboring France, a world leader in the use of biomass, because after the rural exodus it allowed the regeneration of its forests, and now they are the main source of heating in rural France, avoiding imports of hydrocarbons. There is the market for mushrooms and other forest products, and the enormous possibilities offered by ecological tourism. What visitor is going to want to visit an environment that is ugly, a horror, totally devoid of wildlife? What is the common opinion of tourists when they arrive in Galicia and those oak groves that they promised me? Where are those enchanted forests? If there is only eucalyptus! I want to be proud, and not have to be ashamed, of my land in front of strangers. And it is that the eucalyptus is an accurate indicator of economic and social underdevelopment. In Europe, the only States where its cultivation is allowed (and encouraged, and subsidized) is in Spain (ENCE) and Portugal (Celbi and Portucel), despite the fact that climatic and soil conditions even exist throughout the European Atlantic façade. more conducive. In the world, only underdeveloped countries, with civil societies subject to the dictates of power groups, destroy their ecosystems to plant non-native species: Brazil, Uruguay, Colombia, Indonesia ... There is not a single developed country that allows the outrage of destroying their forests autochthonous, displaced by an invasive species, however much it suits their industry. Civilization or barbarism. In the next few days, it will be decided which path we want to take. Taken from a document from the ENCE itself: Only in Galicia we already have more hectares (396,000) dedicated to the cultivation of eucalyptus than in Australia, its place of origin! Between Spain and Portugal, we have 59% of all the Eucalyptus globulus in the world Does this make any sense?

[@Life.Reimagined]

very interesting read. i knew a small amount of this but it really helps put the pieces together for me.

[@evaguo1]

Sorry that happened to you! But thank you for sharing! So we don't make the same mistake. May I ask how much the architectural plans cost (or an estimate if you don't want to share the exact amount)? And how much the submittal of the plans to the camara cost, if there is a fee? Thanks!!

[@jamiecleeves7921]

Welcome to Portugal there not getting another euro from me no land in Portugal for me what a load of hassle

[@marcusmagill9046]

Good luck guys

[@Notion8]

life reimagined for real... sucks for you guys. good luck with visualising your new outcome. sometimes it can be good to see where you at and where you want to go even when you are forced.

[@gary22223]

Sorry to hear, remember it could always be worse. I hope you'll figure something out

[@Life.Reimagined]

Thanks Gary. If there is then we will find it! 😃 🤞

[@delfin2622]

What do you think about growing a vineyard, fruit trees or olives for constant income ?

[@Life.Reimagined]

We love the idea of it but you can’t make much money with that anymore these days. Especially not on our land as it’s „only“ 1.6 hectares.

[@delfin2622]

@@Life.Reimagined In that case, you guys can make another 1- 2 bedroom house and put it on airbnb

[@Life.Reimagined]

@@delfin2622 well that was the plan, until they denied our building permission 😬☺️

[@delfin2622]

@@Life.Reimagined Whaattt!! I thought they denied for a full fledged resort. Can't you guys atleast construct 1 or 2 BHK House in the rustic land even for your own use?

[@Life.Reimagined]

@@delfin2622 No you can’t build anything on rustic land in general. Unless you have a huge land or you know the head architect at the town hall 😂😂. In our case, they changed the fire zones, so even though we submitted our plans two years before they changed the zones and them taking so bloody long to look at our project, they are now saying the new zones apply to us. This means we are most likely only allowed to rebuild the ruin, which is 60sqm 😂

[@kofManKan]

Beware the sunk cost trap. Sorry to hear about what has happened to you.

[@Life.Reimagined]

Yes ... It's defo hard when your emotionally invested

[@lovemeditation8981]

Hi guys, so sorry to hear about your situation. There must be an appeal process? Look at getting advise from a planning or building professional.

[@lukejones1244]

Hello, the ruin was ok in regards to licencing, right? So can you extend it vertically? Build a second floor, but maintaining the same perimeter measurements?

[@Life.Reimagined]

No rebuild exactly as is with out full planning. No extra floors or extensions allowed without full planning. Also this area was limited to one story in prior info request to match locality.

[@BacktoRoots-Portugal]

Maybe it's a blessing in disguise like someone said already below, with all the tourism business shutting down due to the lockdowns, and maybe it will take long for this to come to normal and if they will do some day, so take that in consideration and maybe try a different type of business, Good luck!

[@anthonyadverse6027]

How frustrating! I hope it works out!

[@richardbird5697]

Can you fix the old house to rent .while yous plant out and develop gardens then reappply in the future

[@mafaldaproenca5020]

Good luck with that! You will need it!

[@Life.Reimagined]

Thanks!

[@royrcf]

I was involved in a project in Portugal 20 years ago. The footprint rule was a major issue with gaining planning approval.

[@Life.Reimagined]

Yes. People need to be careful. However it's not always this strict and when we bought the land and submitted our approval it was because our ruin had preplanning to extend to 300m or 1000 for rural tourism. However after 2 years of the plan sitting on a desk this rule changed and left us where we are at today.

[@antonioveiga6504]

Well if you can't beat the camara(city Hall) join them.Yuo ask how!Okey let me tell you the first step!If you going to build ,you must look for the Arquitecto, who work inside the Camara.Most of this guy's,they have office out side. Good luck

[@giselanunes3666]

Se eles estão a dificultar por essa razão, bem que mereciam um processo redondo em tribunal. Isso não tem outro nome senão corrupção.

[@Life.Reimagined]

second comment in 60 that suggests this. im a bit disappointed if thats the case but at this point i wouldnt be suprised.

[@antonioveiga6504]

@@giselanunes3666 You right! Corruption : is a big problem in Portugal.biiiiiiiiig

[@davegoodwin480]

The structures that you have assembled on your land have not been approved by an architect. There is a reason that buildings require architect approval through the planning authorities. It is to avoid the possibility of land being damaged both physically and aesthetically by cheap, temporary structures.

[@aynos629]

You don't seem to like newcomers so you? Anybody would think you are from the area?

[@thehouseofdreams]

Wow... devastating news! Sorry to hear that. Read Sun Tzu's The Art of War. "He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight." I think going head-to-head with the Camara in a legal fight is something I would leave as a very last resort and not something to pull the trigger on right now. Take some time off. Talk to more people. Think creatively. The way forward will make itself clear in due course. If in the end it doesn't happen then it was never supposed to happen. Good luck!

[@licasluis1]

get a permit for swimming pool and after that you can build but not an permanent build (like shed houses)

[@joebliksem2410]

Hope everything works out. Be happy :)

[@markatag2680]

with this change you better check in with an insurance company because its possible that with that fire risk status they wont be giving business or home insruance without paying an arm and a leg....

[@MrMazeca]

It seems that the câmara took way too much time to react to your submitted plan. Some information is missing to analyse your case properly but depending if it was a PIP or a license they had around 30 days to answer. At least to say if something was not adequate.

[@mariannebhatia7245]

Die Hoffnung stirbt zuletzt. I wish you well, don’t give up. Greetings from Germany 🇩🇪

[@lfuentes4098]

It’s been three years since this video. Did you ever get your permit?

[@strawberries1411]

so very sorry for you guys..understandable this must be a heavy blow to take, hope you won't run out of money or patience while doing the waiting game, if not just enjoy life for even the simplest of living is made misarable for us worldwide...keep the spirit up

[@Life.Reimagined]

We will!

[@NiagaraRegionLiving]

Wow. I wonder is paying these pencil pushers “tips” would speed up the process. How do you find zoning information for properties in Portugal?

[@julietwilson2996]

Bless you guys

[@patobrien6364]

so you bought without full planning permission right

[@jorgeleiriao5634]

Hey guys did you solve the issues with the requirements needed for you project?

[@dankit9382]

It seems to be a growing problem throughout the world. "Planners" (or anti planners as I like to say) all over the world are creating so much red tape. Here in NZ, I had to put 7 passing bays on my driveway! (even though it's only servicing one building). My single user rural driveway had to be designed by a chartered engineer, which took 8months, even though the 100year old public road we are off wouldn't have been designed by an engineer. Im of the opinion alot of these planners are trying to force the price up of properties in their area, for personal gain, by restricting supply and making the process more expensive.