Post-Labor Economics Explained in 8 minutes - How will the economy work after AGI?

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[@bollweevil8112]

As someone who’s worked in customer service, I don’t think doing chores for rich people makes humans feel good, and it’s definitely not something that most people are able to do well.

[@eugenes9751]

Even those chores will be done by Ai. Why hire a human assistant when an Ai one is exponentially better, at everything.

[@archducky7492]

What's the difference from the "now economy' where a small minority of people holding a disappropriate amount of money, to the "post AGI economy", where one could assume that the "now rich", would not settle for fair amount of AGI shares. More shares equals more power/access to goods & services. Are we not ending up in a similar scenario, but with shares instead of money?

[@neetfreek9921]

I just want direct democracy already. A lot of the issues that Athens ran into while utilizing it would be invalidated by post-labour economics.

[@doofus9007]

this is the weakest story that David tells. At the end of last year he sounded way more convinced though, so i think he knows he needs to think this through.

[@Nanohamage]

it's significantly different because you're not doing any labor for shares like you do it for money right now it instead depends on the size of production pie so to speak. Another significant difference is we will be adding a ton of artificial workforce helping us to produce bigger pie which means more stuff for everybody regardless of their % of the pie and ultimately depending on A.I capability it might be just good enough for complete self sustainability of a single household meaning people can say F*all and just live in middle of nowhere by themselves and their A.I workers

[@mnrvaprjct]

I have a similar premise to David, but it’s found principles are radically different.

[@nescaufe1991]

So, there would still be a form of poor people?

[@BAAPUBhendi-dv4ho]

He is still in the jungle from the other video

[@StrategyCats]

Peter Zeihan is somewhere nearby too

[@andrewr311]

I'm sure I saw Ewoks in the background

[@Mark_Bayer]

And finally the things that always mattered most may be seen for the true value they hold… art, music, human to human connection, touch, creativity, ideas, etc. so sad / funny that all my life I was told the things I loved most had no market value. In the end the ones who thought they were bringing value will be left job less and simply automated. It’s poetic really.

[@theatheistpaladin]

Part of the Ubi should be money you can invest. There is you buy in.

[@eugenes9751]

Somebody has to make money, that then gets taxed, in order to have UBI. UBI income would not be taxable, so we'll very quickly run out of "other people's money" to take. This is how communism works and why it always fails. If you just print money and give it out, then the value of that money goes down, and everything becomes more expensive, like we're currently watching happen. The only people who would have the option of using their UBI money for investments would be people who can live without the UBI in the first place. Making the rich richer and the poor poorer. Because everybody else needs to eat to live. Giving every US citizen JUST $1k/month would equal 4 TRILLION dollars/year. The US only makes 5T from ALL of it's taxes. We would effectively see an >80%/year inflation rate. And that's for the most powerful and prosperous country on earth, everybody else would be exponentially more screwed.

[@theatheistpaladin]

@@eugenes9751 so what you are saying is that everybody should be jobless and homeless due to AI? Got you. 👍

[@Tanaka.Minoru]

@@theatheistpaladin They’re not saying anybody “should” be anything. This is just the reality of the situation. The brutality of the world doesn’t play favorites. Not for dogs, spiders or humans. It’s prejudice equality

[@theatheistpaladin]

@@Tanaka.Minoru I was being snide. When some says in long block of text that investing is communist, then they have no clue. Not talking about printing money either. I am not interested in arguing with that level of willful ignorance.

[@KraszuPolis]

@@eugenes9751 You don;'t account for the wealth created by having almost free labour, and other advantages of AI. Also in communist countries ppl did work, it was actually illegal to not work, it failed because humans can't plan economy, and human labour is complicated ppl can be lazy or incompetent so there is very complicated system of managing it that communism didn't really had, it only had corruption. Post labour AI run economy isn't like communism at all,.

[@aaroncrandal]

Love wakin up to this stuff! Feels like we're out hikin with ya I can't see any other way this would go either. The human bottleneck includes deliberate exclusionary barriers imposed by oligarchies/special interest groups (with huge head starts) attempting to maintain their foothold. Things like planned obsolescence create unfortunate choke points that stifle the benefits of advancements for everyone else lasting decades. Maybe I've missed it, but are there elements of a.i. that will stonewall bad actors without years of unnecessary suffering for the less fortunate? (Elysium) My fingers are crossed for that either way.

[@Khannea]

You little Peter zeihan, you :) ❤

[@SmarmyBastards]

This can't happen soon enough for me. I am in chemotherapy for Non-Hodgkin's lymphoma and I am part of the Roundup litigation. My brain and body are cooked from the cancer and chemotherapy! My biggest hope is that AI keeps me from being homeless and destitute because of my medical issues.

[@coolbanana165]

What does "tokenizing productive assets" mean? Making everyone a Cooperative member of all or some companies?

[@mitchellzastey]

Lack of value for human labor seems like a pretty serious ethical issue, even with its intended upside.

[@tracythompson8520]

I guess it depends on how to define 'value.' I don't value a lot of labor that generates $$ i.e. miners, oil well operators, pro athletes, etc. So it remains to be seen how 'value' is defined going forward. Our current economy is based on consumption and waste because of the goal of capitalists for more capital in their pockets. It is a fundamental flaw in our capitalist/consumer system. If our values and value system shift to, say, experiences or personal engagement, then it will all change.

[@1flyingartworks]

My question is: What is the impact of post-labor economics on populism and extremism? My optimistic answer is, historically, periods of rapid advancement are often accompanied by social unrest. However, the potential disruption of post-labor economics seems far more profound. Could AGI, by moving so quickly, actually create successive periods of prosperity, allowing us to realize the benefits before negativity sets in (i.e recoiling into the past)?

[@texassteve365]

If everyone becomes a stakeholder how do you control for population growth and the dilution of assets

[@RadicalAlignment]

Education for women is already controlling population

[@thedeminded]

Look into prosumerism. You can't sell your labour - so you use access to robots to provide for oneself directly. So you don't have to buy or sell anything. You only have to distribute shares of global production power and resources (preferably equally) for everyone. People will cover their basic needs by themselves and cooperate to combine shares to create something bigger, like science projects or cosmic travels or underwater cities.

[@awwtergirl7040]

Energy is not free. Robots are not free nor do they have zero operational expenses. Not everyone starts with the same resources. Where in my illegal tent in the woods do I store my robot?

[@thedeminded]

@@awwtergirl7040 that's the question - who owns resources and robots so he can charge everyone in the world for them and why...

[@stephenodhiambo7556]

This is the most likely scenario in my view.

[@danielskiba8256]

He knows what hes talking about. Hes walking through the woods mid work day with head phones

[@_malcolm]

Yoga teacher on the side. So glad I enjoy 🎉 doing it.

[@kbystryakov]

Opinion: people's activities, including economic ones, have a single ultimate goal - to kill free time while you are alive. Everyday work (8h*5d) will not be gone if we do not come up with a substitute for work in order to efficiently kill our free time. Smartphones and social media are helping us kill time now. Virtual reality, virtual worlds populated by AI creatures, can also help.

[@RadicalAlignment]

You can argue that efficiency is optimizing for free time. But it's very nihilistic and Russian to say that the goal is to just waste time.

[@kbystryakov]

@@RadicalAlignment For me personally, nihilism is the rejection of consumption (primarily established concepts) for the sake of finding meaning and exploring the previously unimaginable. At some point along the way, you freeze and do nothing (the goal is to just waste time.). It's a boundary between two worlds, a time of transformation.

[@RadicalAlignment]

Lol, you got that exactly backwards. Nihilism mandates consumption.

[@kbystryakov]

@@RadicalAlignment In my cultural tradition, the term "nihilism" has other meanings, primarily "revolution" and "the younger generation's rejection of the ideas of the past". For me personally - the term "nihilism" means rejection of the mainstream worldview. I wonder how the connection between nihilism and consumption came about? And, by the way, consumption of what and who consumes, what strata of society?

[@zachariahdrown8435]

I don’t see how late stage in this trajectory capital becomes useful - we wouldn’t need to pay robots to do some task etc , it’s more like everything is automated and free and money doesn’t have a place . Though were disparities in this technology exist money would then again have meaning . But one the whole doesn’t seem to have much value when the production mechanisms for all ecomically relevant tasks are automated.

[@xinth23]

From the two videos I've seen on your channel, you have some interesting and futuristic ideas. Out of pure curiosity, what sources inspired your philosophy and vision?

[@RadicalAlignment]

Dozens of books, hundreds of KZbin videos, hundreds of conversations, and writing my own books

[@MichaelDeeringMHC]

Your ideas are going to be great for people who have capital and disastrous for those who don't. Your share the capital idea only goes so far. There will always be people left out, lots of people. I have a better idea. No one charges you to breath, unless you are hooked up to a breathing machine. Air is free. Water is free in many places. Food is free if you are walking through a public park with berry bushes and fruit trees. Shelter is free in some very limited circumstances. My idea is to make water free everywhere, make food free everywhere, make shelter free everywhere, make basic products free.

[@tracythompson8520]

I agree. I believe it will take ASI to essentially collapse our global economic system and create a new one form the ashes. People are too greedy and self-interested to ensure there is equity in any financial system that is based on 'capital.' Personally I would like to see an AI 'overlord' collapse our global system and hit the reset button. For those who know how to survive it will be great. For those who suck the life essence out of others for their own gain, they will suffer. The problem with that scenario is that once that 'overlord' gets to that point it will realize we are not necessary and in fact represent an existential threat to it and it will therefore eliminate the threat. I'm okay with that.

[@spencervance8484]

​@tracythompson8520 I don't think it will take asi. I'm thinking round agi

[@RadicalAlignment]

That's why I emphasized that you need to incentivize buyin and subsidize buyin. It's like people only watch half the video before commenting.

[@MichaelDeeringMHC]

@@tracythompson8520 I think we are as much of a threat to ASI as Panda bears are a threat to us.

[@MichaelDeeringMHC]

@@spencervance8484 AGI is already ASI because it can be trained on all of human science and technology as no human can.

[@cuddlingwolf2762]

The main difference between your theory and mine is that yours preserves capitalism, but I think if you look into the changing costs of the means of production you would see that the need for capital investment is rapidly dwindling, meaning we don't have to think in those terms any more than we need to think in terms of labor scarcity

[@cuddlingwolf2762]

In short, we are approaching two shifts at once.. the shift away from labor scarcity and the shift away from investment requirements.. we could provide consumers with the means to purchase goods without treating it like an investment return, but rather a simple and undeniable necessity to enable consumers to consume in order to validate production in the first place, a direct loop

[@cuddlingwolf2762]

Btw nice to meet you, I've been studying post scarcity for about 10 years myself, 5 of which working on a theory of transitional development within corporations.. last year we launched our LLC to test the concepts going great so far!

[@TheExodusLost]

Would the assets on the hyperlocal exchange trade like stocks? With a market cap that goes up and down? That’s a really interesting concept but wouldn’t people just try to make money on it, investing in what’s lucrative?

[@RadicalAlignment]

yeah mostly

[@veritaspk]

It's too pretty to be true. Giving everyone a share of the economy will mean that the top 1% will have to share their wealth and power - they won't do it on their own. Only under the threat of an apocalyptic revolution. Secondly, even if it were possible to build a working economic system without human labor, a large percentage of humanity would fall into a spiral of self-destructive hedonism without the threat of falling into poverty. It will be necessary to fundamentally rebuild education, the whole human culture.

[@aaroncrandal]

This is the same tired "industriousness" argument that supposses there's enough evidence to conclude the average human with devolve into a puddle of their own self interests. I find it's helpful to consider if narratives like this would work to the benefit of the 1% "Oh, you don't wanna burden yourself with recreation and reflection...let us do all that hard stuff for ya, just step onto this treadmill here and pretend you're the ant"

[@Souleater7777]

So , let them fall into hedonism. It's not your business , and not your life. Those are your morals, not everyone cares

[@nescaufe1991]

I just want to address that part of that hedonism could be via virtual means, with more advanced sensorial stimulation, but even then the problem is not solved. So yeah, I want someone to try to predict more of the “traffic jams”, even in this optimistic future

[@sunnykawatachi]

This is an assumption that hedonism = bad

[@veritaspk]

@@sunnykawatachi Pursuing the pleasures of the flesh isn't bad...but it can be problematic. What about substance addictions? Their use may be dangerous not only for the user, but also for people nearby. The fact that most of them are banned is not a problem today... let alone in the future. Where there is demand, there is supply and demand will break through the roof. Addicts will have access to unlimited funds, and their number will increase because boredom is one of the risk factors. The worst thing is that it is probably too late to avoid it - educational systems are designed to educate workers - and if David is not wrong in his predictions, children entering school today will finish their education in the AGI world

[@boukm3n]

*We need CPF like Singapore does and it’ll work*

[@TRXST.ISSUES]

I feel in an age of abundance many people will abandon the current model of economic slavery. If autonomy allows comfortable home pods to be built for $1K and you spend 90% of your time in VR, what value do a lot of “real” assets have? Everything (currently) seems driven by demand, cultural norms may shift to where what’s currently valued is not sought after (outside of a select few like stamp collectors). Does money hold its value if people abandon its use beyond achieving baseline needs? Especially if those needs become extremely cheap? It’s kinda like water. It’s extremely cheap (by comparison to other bills). What if everything we currently value reduces to the cost of water. From there it’s just collectors items and arbitrary/artificial scarcity driving value and prestige. I think it will be a situation similar to where a kid wants to play a certain game and other kids choose not to play along. People with money want to keep the system but the other people won’t want to play (and won’t need to).

[@godmisfortunatechild]

Upward economic mobility is missing for the current have nots in this system youve proposed. Which would mean a inequality in perpetuity

[@RadicalAlignment]

Inequality is permanent irrespective. And no, upward mobility is not excluded. Stakeholder capitalism allows anyone to move up simply by making better and more strategic investments.

[@godmisfortunatechild]

@PragmaticProgressive If more resourced individuals with more stake enter the proposed system, and their stakes grow at the same rate or greater, it's difficult to see how this growth translates into a tangible increase in quality of life for the majority, given their massive wealth advantage. If the economic ceiling rises as quickly as individuals climb, does real upward mobility exist? Likely, various services and goods would remain forever out of reach for many within this system. Depending on how greatly the preexisting inequality transfers over to this proposed framework, it may very well be impossible to ever rise to the higher echelon of the socioeconomic landscape. Moreover, with socioeconomic competition, access to frontier AI, which probably won't be equitably distributed, could become a critical factor. This framework seems to only perpetuate pointless competition within existing classes, at best.

[@useodyseeorbitchute9450]

We're not really equal on genetic level so any roughly meritocratic structure is going to be unequal.

[@DanielPekic]

Democratic societies have the opportunity to at least be a little more democratic than they are now. This is a continuum after all; rather than an absolute. More is better than less. Blockchains and AI at least allow for more fairness, whilst still upholding the ambition and innovation driven by capitalism or our innate greed to have more than our neighbours. Works for me. I hate when people cry about “perfect scenario” of fairness for humans which is a subjective mess amongst even the brightest of discussions.

[@paul725]

I’m just not entirely sold on the idea of said jobs remaining merely due to human touch. Seems like it will engulf almost every job.

[@RadicalAlignment]

In many cases people will use machines if they are cheaper, but remember that hugely depressed human wages means that humans will be cheaper to hire in some cases.

[@adonisvillain]

no ubi 🥺

[@yoananda9]

So, to make it clear, just by drinking water, we become stakeholder of the local water company. Right ? something like that ?

[@CasenJames]

Look, I like the way you use "Stake Holder Capitalism," but it's got too much stink on it. I love what you're doing for the people ❤

[@RadicalAlignment]

What about steak holder capitalism

[@antoniobortoni]

Our lives become inverse, they pay us to use social media, to see ads you get pay, because why i will use the social media that dont payme?? and the government pay you to live in their cities, so if a city needs engineers that get value to the city so they pay to import those people, they pay you to study, instead of education cost is the inverse, gym, sports instead of be a cost playing they will pay you in tournaments, all categories to promote sports, arts the same, why?? because free money is not the answer, is distribution of wealth, and fun, sports, winners and losers, education, muscle buildings free money to the people that are in shape, why give money to the fat one, he needs the hunger to move to survive and most men dont allow external help from no one... china subsidice industry to generate experience but that's not enough or good... But subsidice education, science, art, education, sports economy??? culture economy?? because anyone with fake money can run economy but it can run it bad, justice or fun with tournaments and leagues....

[@mountainsmelodies4096]

The Bible says "idle hands are the Devil's workshop." Ted Kaczynski foresaw this future when he wrote his manifesto. People need a "power process" to give their lives purpose and meaning. Without it they will succumb to a human version of Calhoun's utopian mouse experiments. Frank Herbert (Dune author) also explored some of these ideas in his writings ie concerning the Butlerian Jihad where humans rose up and overthrew the thinking machines which were running their societies. In the far future, where Dune takes place, thinking machines are banned.

[@RadicalAlignment]

Calhoun's mouse experiment was idiotic I wish people would stop citing that. It was mouse hell, of course it collapsed. In no way was it optimized for mouse wellbeing.

[@mountainsmelodies4096]

​@@RadicalAlignmentSo what's your solution, then, to give peoples' lives purpose in a World where all major decisions affecting their existence will eventually be made by AI and technocrats? Invent enemies abroad and motivate the population into working hard out of fear of the other, like in Orwell's "1984", or drug / genetically modify humans to make them more docile, compliant and machine-like, as in Huxley's "Brave New World" or Ira Levine's "This Perfect Day".

[@neetfreek9921]

Random Thought: what if you just have investment returns go into a singular pool that feeds into a ubi. The ubi increases or decreases based on how well the returns are. That way people are forced into competitive coop mode instead of competitive PvP. Everyone is incentivized to maximize their investments so that the ubi raises. This helps everyone instead of just raising a singular person’s wage. Kind of communist kind of capitalist, idk I’m sleep deprived af lol.

[@RadicalAlignment]

That's like a sovereign wealth fund. Not a bad idea but you don't want to put all your eggs in one basket.

[@neetfreek9921]

@@RadicalAlignment What part of it puts it too much in one basket? The incentive structure, the fact that the money is sitting in one place, the lack of hierarchies between peers? Figured with each individual contributing to where investments go, it would diversify it enough but idk. Not trying to defend my half baked idea just wanting clarity lol. Edit: After refreshing myself on what a sovereign wealth fund is. Ya this was largely inspired by Norway’s. But I think the key difference would be that the government wouldn’t be the one investing, instead they would outsource all investing to the entirety of its population. If that’s any clearer. Also, to keep money constantly flowing so people don’t hoard. You could have everyone’s accounts empty back into the pool on every other paycheck. Idk how you would go about large payments, maybe through installments.

[@sunnykawatachi]

We must find a way for everyone to benefit, especially those least privileged in society, from any system that is implemented in a post labor economy. I can definitely see right wing authoritarian goverments denying UBI to trans people.

[@eugenes9751]

Why wouldn't people just sell their shares? Everybody being invested in the system is just capitalism, and exists today. This is like giving every person a bitcoin and hoping they don't spend it immediately. And if you can't actually spend it, then what would be the point of having it? A person with no income will not just sit around, hoping their shares become worth more in the future, when they need to put food on the table today.

[@middle-agedmacdonald2965]

I build shit. It's been 5,000 years since somebody outdid the pyramids. This could really free up some backs for hard physical labor that pays nothing other than the pride of building something cool. Imagine getting UBI, universal healthcare, and free housing. That's the only way you could ever hope to outdo the pyramids. This might be our chance!

[@Nanohamage]

for second i thought you were going to build bigger structures than pyramids once you're free from labor

[@yearofthegarden]

That's why I avoided tech and digital art for 15 years and learned to farm, which I had to adapt since I don't own land, and move every 2-4 years because I farm solo and spent my career studying quality techniques that have allowed me to exist on an island off of a major city full of multi million dollar properties. I am a private gardener for the rich and am very slim in my infrastructure and overhead, but also because I cannot compete against large farms, I adapted to teach myself mycology, greenhouse season extension and hydroponics, that way I always am ahead of large farms, I have a variety of niche products and can grow indoors all year, organically. I will never be replaced, and have been learning digital art and Ai since 2021 which I am using as my catalyst to tell a story with my product to exemplify its value and quality. I also have a dental IT job in the major city, but it is such a competitive risk to switch to that as a career, instead I am getting into landscaping and landed a job with a company who does only 4 properties and manages to hire 20 employees, only because they are passionate about quality and work with the same elites I am familiar with.

[@daviddixon7019]

Everyone a stakeholder! 🤣Nice appropriation! Carbon credits also need some appropriating.

[@Wealthward]

2 birds 1 stone

[@AdrianThonyNava]

One of the worst ways to introduce a concept is to say that it is promoted by Klaus Schwab.

[@TheIgnoramus]

Primo

[@TheViktorofgilead]

I don’t get it. So, in the future my job will be gone and in order to sustain myself I will be required to invest in something… but I have no money to invest… because I have no job… my current job doesn’t pay enough to afford a home let alone make investments to secure my place in the future techno feudalism. I find it far more convincing that if labor is abolished instead of capitalism and property rights that the population will be drastically reduced due to the barbarity of capitalism. Will a democracy vote to starve itself to death? No. Would a capitalist institution prioritize its profits ahead of the death of nameless faceless human beings? History says yes. Do not leave capital in charge of our lives. Fully automated luxury space communism sounds great, but that requires the elimination of private property rights and capitalism.

[@Alex_Plante]

The biggest bottleneck is energy.

[@Theendoftheday1963]

Amen - cheap, clean energy

[@ricc553]

I just realized that the road towards a post AGI economy would be hard. Before AGI arrives, AI would have already displaced millions of Jobs leading to millions of hungry and angry people, the government would probably have a hard time coming up with solutions to deal with that, there will be friction from people of power who wouldn't want to lose that power, there will be people in power who like the way things are and would do something that would hinder technological progress and who knows what else. I have a feeling that things would get worse before it gets better.... This decade is going to be one bumpy ride.

[@GateHouse-jx8fq]

Economics need humans + humans? A.i can't replace a human workforce because of growth+ development. Alot people don't get economic growth. Humans buy products+ alot more. Only a mass human workforce +A.i intelligence workforce will work. Technology needs people. Like a bike needs a rider .

[@consciouscode8150]

When a job can be automated, I consider it to be unethical to have humans do it. Work is only done out of necessity, and putting people in positions where they're expected to behave as machines when it isn't strictly necessary is dehumanizing and prevents them from finding more fulfilling things to do with their time. Note that "human touch" work by this definition can't be automated, because a human doing it is part of the value proposition.

[@bojman]

Agree, but look how many people today spend their free (leisure) time...by engaging into online social networks i.e. doing free work for corporations who own OSN's and various platforms. In the end, you reduce working time and end up having more free time but that time is not used productively,creatively or to do some good, but is spend in consumerism of online content and game play. It extracts the value from the consumers and transfers it to large conglomerates.

[@Tanaka.Minoru]

I think part of the problem is assuming that money is simply a medium of exchange. It’s not. You still need to find a way to establish the state and chain of custody over a finite amount of resources. Even with exponential growth (double exponential growth if you go by the law of accelerating returns) you’re not going to 2X the amount of beachfront property or habitable land in 50 years. This new model you’re proposing would be shackling the already wealthy in the economy. Something (and I promise you) they would be very much against. Especially in a time where these wealthy individuals have more lateral movement than any other period in history, which if things keep going the way they’re going, will only continue to increase. The rich are more than likely going to invest substantial amounts of their wealth into decentralized monetary systems the second they smell the government thinking about an alternative financial infrastructure.

[@bigbadallybaby]

Or use it to buy all the premium land.

[@Tanaka.Minoru]

@@bigbadallybaby If it’s in the US maybe. Again, if we’re moving into a faster and hyper changing landscape, the play (for most wealthy individuals) is to have as much lateral movement as possible. Hyper flexibility. It’s hard to put that piece of land in your back pocket and move if you need to do so quickly. I imagine it’ll be a combination of both depending on your location and family situation

[@bigbadallybaby]

@@Tanaka.Minoru the post labour environment is very difficult to think about. If energy is free (due to nuclear fusion) and robots do all the work then the only things that become limited and so valuable are raw materials and land. Trying to imagine how people have wealth or move up a property ladder or an economy functions in that world is difficult

[@tracythompson8520]

@@bigbadallybaby and land is one of those things that there is no inherent right to, even with a piece of paper that says it is yours.

[@PawelBojkowski]

The same here: Love this format, David! This is so refreshing! The best ideas and reflections always come in the forest. It feels so unfiltered, like your reflection in the forest in the fresh air. Thank you!

[@RaySonic_99]

I just feel that social economic mobility is going to continue to suffer going forward. If you are not born into wealth then your chances of bettering your personal situation are not improving in any meaningful way. Yes the quality of life will improve and access to health care and many other services will definitely improve other types of experiences will be limited or reduced because we do live in a finite world.

[@GateHouse-jx8fq]

A world+ economic system where 😅 everyone on benefits wouldn't have growth + development. Just how the system works! Mass workforce or economic systems falls apart. Like bike without a Rider! Pointless

[@gofastER]

I’d rather get a tattoo from a machine that could do perfect ink. I’d rather have my car park itself than some dirty valet that could potentially do all kinds of crap to/with my car. I’d rather get a massage from a robot that won’t get tired.

[@Hankemup]

Dave, you should really read "Seeing like a State". Stakeholder capitalism is better that traditional capitalism, but it is still a simplification of complex human systems. We need post Capitalist paradigms to create a maximamally adaptive, creative human system

[@RadicalAlignment]

Looks like an interesting book

[@eskimo6097]

So it sounds like techno-socialism to me.

[@waykiwayki]

Doesn't work as data centres will be mining rigs....as projects /assets like TAO and ASI will win out the AI game. But you are thinking along the right lines - we need to work out a way that DAOs do the governance....locally, and collectively......and yes, all should (and will) be tokenised. Keep thinking. Many of us are getting the downloads - as the current system is soon to collapse....we need new seeds.

[@lesoto]

what about the consumer side? Robots are horrible consumers

[@RadicalAlignment]

Humans will continue consuming

[@phobosmoon4643]

Lmao you didn't lie that was well-said for only 8min. I intend to cultivate a musical taste so snobby that my friends (the only people that will tolerate me) are inherently musicians. Like its a job.

[@enermaxstephens1051]

This creates two separate monies though. One that gets you all the lower end, necessity stuff. And one that gets you the higher end stuff like vacations and into certain areas and clubs. The lower money (UBI) lets you exist without working. The higher money (likely bitcoin or other crypto) is the rare money and gets you the real privileges. How could it be any other way? There will still be some scarcity, and UBI is free. Who will take the free money for scarce stuff?

[@quacktuber1051]

Was told in elementary school that by the time I started working due to automation I would likely be working three or four day work week. That was forty five years ago. Sorry, but the socialist utopia may be a mirage.

[@ogkinglyle]

Anyone without access to technology would be ...... ?

[@fluxxnoise1]

What do you think about industrial mechanics? Most of the automation to make things will be mechanical in nature and they will need maintenance and repair. Will there be machines repairing machines, or will that still be a human?

[@RadicalAlignment]

Yeah, machines already build most machines.

[@fluxxnoise1]

But maintenance on the machines that build the machines is currently done by outside human contractors. As of right now, there aren’t any robots that service conveyor systems in distribution centers, or energy plants. Auto repair and maintenance are human jobs now, will there be robots that can do collision repair or a brake job? If a peice of construction equipment breaks on a job site in the backwoods of New Hampshire, will they send a robot to repair it? I really hope so because there aren’t nearly enough younger folks who want to wrench or weld or diagnose mechanical failures…

[@mikefisher84]

What would you do today to ensure you're in the best position when we start to transition to post labor? I'm a high earning software engineer and semi accomplished musician with a newborn but own no property (NYC) I'm on board with everything you said about post labor being great for humanity but I also think our transition to that stage will be very very bumpy.

[@tomdarling8358]

Beautiful walk in the woods,David. Your outlook on trying to level the playing fields for all sounds pretty good, but in my own head, it somehow triggered government cheese.🧀 Apologies if there were some confusion... I don't see universal basic income as any different than today's government cheese. The current social security structure just doesn't work. It's not enough to pay the bills. Within my own communities, tenants can barely pay the rent. I've actually lost tenants because they'd rather pay their phone bill than pay the rent. Which was never a thing back in the seventies and eighties. We try to help them jump the hoops for government assistance. Utilities, food, and rent. If they have enough kids, they can receive a pretty good penny from the government. But if it's a single mom or a single dad with just one kid, social security doesn't seem to pay enough to support them. Even in a low rent community. I don't see universal basic income as any different. Just scraping by isn't living. We need to reevaluate the entirety of the system. Universal thriving income should be the benchmark. Desperate people do desperate things, and we don't need that. The dollar is a fictitious thing. So why does anyone need to be poor. It's only through greed and power that we don't manipulate such a thing into a better place for all. How do we ask the kings of the world to set down their crowns. How do we give everyone enough to afford a slice of the pie. We need thriving dremers if we're going to make this world the better place. Hopefully, when we plug AI into the landscape, it will come up with better answers. As a Leavenworth, I want justice for all. I am absolutely done with people who lie, cheat, and steal. Especially when they've swore the oath to serve and protect. They should be ashamed of themselves, although they've never been taught any better. Back in the day when you were arrested for a federal crime, you were taught a trade. Giving a man an education, purpose, and pride. Today's institutions are a mere shadow of their former systems. If you're locked up today, you become a worse citizen. Quite opposite of its initial intent. How do we make better people if we treat them like animals. Some incarcerated for laws that never should have been written. What happened to the oath to serve and protect. Why is it ok for them to accept money to look the other way. Why do they spread lies as if they were truths. How is this acceptable. Where is my military they know better. They know i'm spitting the truth. As one of the many great, great grandsons of this new found, free land, it sure seems to be a shit show of greed. Equal opportunity, my ass. Our founding fathers must be rolling over in their graves. When can we evolve ?_? 🗽🗽🗽✌️🤟🖖

[@Souleater7777]

Amazing

[@RadicalAlignment]

Yeah, I didn't mention UBI once

[@tomdarling8358]

Apologies, David, I didn't mean to infer that you did. Perhaps I should re-edit. Your walk through the woods suggested giving everyone a sliver of the pie. Stocks, bonds, trades... I suppose it triggered u b I in my head and the current state of affairs within my own system's. Flashes of things throughout my own life. Things that have worked and things that didn't. At this point, I consider the governmental and financial institutions to be pretty much a failure. Too many citizens are sleeping in the streets. We used to have genuine systems in place to take care of them. Unfortunately, they turned into shit shows. Not everyone is born with the mental capacity to handle the world. But we should at least give them the respect they deserve for a healthy, happy life. Genetics. Accident victims. Drug addicts... Or just plain born into poverty. They are human, and they should be respected as such. Not just thrown in the street. They are not trash. What the hell are we thinking... Oh, shoot me and my three sentences. Any more than that is just a lot of words... Unfortunately, I keep failing at my own rule. I'll try to do better. Thank you for the walks in the woods. You have inspired me to try to do the same. Currently, life is short. We should try to enjoy it while we can. Rock picking and mushroom hunting. Back in the woods. That's my jam. ✌️🤟🖖

[@Oleobenohne]

Hey there, really like your content and thoughts on all that. Do you provide some sources on research to this? Would be nice to read up on academic research on this

[@nescaufe1991]

Agreed

[@TravY2J]

What is with people like you and trying to passively stifle creative thought? Literally google “Post labor economics and AI” and go wild with your sources.

[@limitisillusion7]

I wrote a long critique to this video, but I clicked the back button and it's gone. In short, are you sure humans are designed to live a post-labor lifestyle? How quickly do you think we can evolve to such a lifestyle? How much of life's rewards and meaning comes from the struggle that work provides? What are the consequences of outsourcing the things we've been doing to survive for millennia to machines? Do you foresee a meaning crisis? How specifically do we ensure that "statutory" jobs include all those that provide meaning without machines making them obsolete in the name of efficiency? How will we ensure that the purpose of the arborist, cook, or carpenter isn't replaced by a prioritization of efficiency? To summarize all of those questions into one... You say that "the greatest constraint to economic productivity and human progress is human labor." So at what point do the meanings and desires of _current_ human lives get overshadowed by the uncertain promises of _future_ progress? If you don't have a very good answer to that question, then you don't know how much labor you can replace before it backfires. I'm not trying to be cynical. I'm a person who sees everything in this reality as a tool, and the outcome depends on how we use the tools. A hammer can be used to build or destroy. AGI is theoretically no different. I believe a post-scarcity reality would really ease our inter-species conflict, and that's great. I don't believe in no conflict, but ridding ourselves of violent conflict would be cool with me. But once you remove that conflict, you're going to need some competition to obey the law of duality. I don't think it's wise to hand over that competition to AGI. In truth, I'm not sure AGI is possible.

[@RadicalAlignment]

We absolutely weren't designed for modern life, dude. We're going back to basics