Post PhD Depression | Simple steps to recovery

[@dalia2122]

Thank you, Andy. I defended my PhD last Friday. Having faced many obstacles during this long journey (up until the last minute), I was expecting to feel some kind of relief after my defense. Instead, I could not stop crying all night and have been facing migraines and insomnia since then. It is good to know other people also experience anxiety afterwards. I try to think that I have to stop trying to prove myself to others. Because most of my negativity comes from the fear of high competition in the job market, feeling inferior compared to my supervisors and fellow PhD graduates etc. I feel this thing has already taken a big toll on my mental and physical health and I really need to change the way I think.

[@energiam880]

I had somewhat of a relatable experience I suppose (defended early December 21, passed minor corrections, and awarded my doctorate by February) I wouldn't say I felt depressed after passing my viva. It was the best day of my life, quite literally. And my Ph.D. journey was incredibly difficult in multiple ways. There were moments when I had very little hope. Although I did feel overwhelmingly happy and relieved (i don't know what I would've done had I not), I think I became addicted to stress after 6 years of mental torment and uncertainty. I became extremely paranoid afterward. The day after I was wondering if they would fail me during corrections. Even though my corrections, thankfully, were so minor they were there for the sake of it. But my mind somehow kept thinking of absolute worse-case scenarios all the time. Thankfully, my minor correction process occurred very smoothly. It took me just 2 days to make the corrections. But my internal examiner and supervisors needed about 3 weeks to confirm and accept the corrections because they were busy with the intake of new students. After finally being awarded my doctorate (only knew when my parents whatsapped me about a letter with the title Dr in front of my name), I began to somehow relax. But life is funny. When one source of distress is eliminated, there will always be something else to refocus your misery on! You just have to accept that, it's what everyone goes through. Don't remember the hard times by your suffering. Remember them for the resilience you've displayed

[@GabrielaAPicayo]

I really identify with this. I finished December 2021, struggled through my PhD and continue to struggle. I still feel like it was one of the worst decisions of my life.

[@dalia2122]

@@GabrielaAPicayo Exactly, it sometimes feels like it was a bad decision after all and not worth all the mental pain I went through (not to mention professional experience and other important things lost along the way)

[@prajyalakshmi5563]

True

[@keithwisdom1663]

@Anurag Chakraborty investing stock- crypto- real estate..... youu will do great and be self employeed--- the last thing you need is a job--- you are smart enough to learn how to invest.---- just get enough capital by borrowing or working for awhile to save up capital. you only need about maybe 5k to start or a few thousand

[@sunilanandatheertha]

Defended my thesis successfully with minor corrections to thesis a day ago. I did not feel anything happy about it but don't feel like I am over the depression and anxiety!! I feel like PhD has taken more than it could possibly ever give back..

[@shantelane2553]

I know you wrote this two years ago but I feel absolutely the same way! One of my biggest life regrets was earning my PhD. I defend this month.

[@Cassandra-..-]

I was almost done, 5th year, writing. Got married and moved away to an expensive city for husband’s postdoc and experienced this depression of which you speak. Was unable to finish. More than 30 years ago and I still have the lab books. Complicated verbal tap dance required in job interviews. Kudos to those who’ve made it, no matter what!

[@garethgc1141]

It's really a pity that you're videos came out after my PhD. It's so spot on, crazy!! Thanks for creating and sharing it.

[@suzushiEitan]

Thank you so much for putting this out there and discussing such a dramatically important subject. Doing a Ph.D. really messes with your self-identity and it takes time, even years, to understand what the h***l one goes through. As a humanities scholar, you literally "live in your head" for years. Once it's over, you're faced with many challenges of readjustment to everyday nonacademic society (even in a "regular" workplace). There's a gap that cannot go unnoticed. Only when I was fed up with being fed up about my post-doc life and started a nonacademic job, I realized how twisted the whole lifestyle was. how miserable I was for more than 7 years and how my whole self-identity was dependent on me being a professor in the end (which did not happen). Doing a Ph.D. was a massive undertaking and I learned a lot from it, but I cannot resist the thought that there's something really REALLY wrong with the process and the unreal expectations. It demands long healing, such that can only happen when you step out of this lifestyle.

[@t.j.e7705]

Submitted 2 months ago... just listened to this. You had me in tears at some points. Just knowing I’m not the only one has really struck a chord with me. Thanks for posting this. Really liking your other videos too. Cheers for that Andy

[@DrAndyStapleton]

A pleasure, Tim! It's a challenging time and I'm pleased I could play a role in helping you!

[@PortCharmers]

German here who spent four years in New Zealand for a zoology PhD. Depression hit me around the second year of my PhD program (although, in retrospect, I realize it had been with me long before, but I didn't know that mental health was a thing). My fourth year was rather drawn out, my supervisor repeatedly stating that if I gave it two more months, it would become a better thesis. My scholarship had run out, my savings dwindled, and I realized that I could always improve by adding another month, so at some point I just booked a flight back home, giving myself a deadline. Like screw it, it'll never be perfect, and if it's not good enough by then, I maybe just simply not smart enough to be a PhD. My plan to hand in and spend a few relaxed days before departure were thwarted by a lot of last-minute-input and myself totally underestimating such menial tasks as writing the list of references and formatting the whole thing. I ended up working through the last three days and two nights and handed in the day before my flight left. I caught a little head-cold and went to the chemist for some medicine. She just looked at me for a moment and suggested "I think you should get some sleep". When the plane lifted off I bawled like a baby, not knowing whether I would ever see the beautiful country I came to love ever again. I did 10 months later for my graduation. It was really important for me to have this sort of celebration and opportunity to say goodbye to my favourite haunts. Depression stayed with me, along with a massive impostor-syndrome, which made it hard to catch the science-career-train. Now, some 13 years later, I'm working in a completely different field for bread and butter, but with enough spare-time to find my feet as a self-employed biologist. Having been out of it for so long, I have difficulty not to glorify science and academia, even though my own experience wasn't the best. For the most part, my supervisor was brilliant, but he and a colleague (or should I say rival) published two papers which bordered on idea-theft, but in such a casual way that I really didn't know what to make of it. Since my PhD was nearing completion at that time I felt I couldn't afford a kerfuffle so I swallowed that toad.

[@markharder3676]

Thank you very much. Finally, somebody who knows the experience shares it. My own post-partum (?) depression had more to do with the 'mourning' you talk about. I've always had a problem with depression, esp. that empty non-feeling emotional deadness that accompanies depression. As you say, earning a PhD takes a lot of work - but not the external work on the problem so much as the inner work it takes to stay committed to a project unlike anything you've experienced in your academic career. I had trouble getting started. It took a few years and the threat of having my project taken away before I really knuckled down and gave it my all. Writing my thesis was the same. Months of accomplishing nothing followed by a kind of existential decision to finish it. Finally, the ritual humiliation that is a thesis defense before they shake your hand and congratulate you (What in hell is my committee doing behind those closed doors in the library besides deciding my future? Does that really take an hour? Don't they know me by know?) I should be ecstatic, right? But I'm not. All there is is the big question, WHAT NOW? After all the effort, the structure that defined my life for 7 years was gone now. So what's my new purpose going to be? It wasn't too bad until the night of the big celebratory party. I was playing this jazz album for my guests and while this particular track, a sad ballad, was playing I just crashed. For months, nothing seemed worth doing. I imagined being locked inside a telephone booth. I could see the world all around me, but I couldn't be part of it. So I decided to take a trip. I rode with a friend to his hometown of Winnepeg, Manitoba. From there, I took a train across western Canada and stopped in Jasper, Alberta. I went on a short backpacking trip in the mountain tundra of the Canadian Rockies. At one point, I was trailed by a hungry Grizzly and experienced other completely new things. When I returned to St. Louis, I can't say I was entirely cured, but the oppressive emptiness had lifted. I had learned that the way to relieve my depressions was to do something that demanded that I focus on something alien to me and my own ruminations.

[@edacheb]

This was such a truthful video! Especially the point about how drawn out the finish of a PhD is. I had major corrections to do and they felt like a burden suppressing the joy that I should have been feeling after my viva. I've nearly completed the corrections now, so once they are submitted and accepted I will make sure to give myself the opportunity to really drink in that feeling of closure! thanks for your vids! really loving them.

[@DrAndyStapleton]

Thank you for your support! Another video coming out again tomorrow!

[@ireneiglesias6290]

Andy, thank you very much for your video. I was surprised, at how many things you said that I can relate to. I defended my Ph.D. a little over a year ago and left academia to pursue a career in Industry (even though I was planning to devote my life to science since age 8). You had me really almost crying at some points in your video… It is nice to know that I am not alone, that it is common to have this „transition state“. Thank you for sharing your experience.

[@dr.emilyacevedo812]

As I said in one of your other videos, I finished my PhD in Education in June and I celebrated EVERY milestone big or small. Every revisions brought me closer to the end of my journey. People who haven't experiences the PhD up and down don't understand what it means getting pass one hurdle and moving towards the next step. When I got the email from my chair and 2nd committee member (I'm in NY) calling me Dr. I sat in my car and cried with my friend over the phone. It was all the emotion that I experience over the last 5 years. It took 5 years because my mother had health problems and I slow down to take care of her. When she was sleeping, I worked on the revisions. The feelings your body goes through it something that I can't put into words but its amazing. I'll be walking across the stage as they same my name next July 2023.

[@drsweetpea]

Thank you so much for this video! I thought I would be so happy and relieved after defending my dissertation a few weeks ago but this has been a lonely process and exhausting. I recently went and sought out the help I need to get me out of this funk I've been in. Your videos definitely helped me through my PhD from 2021-2024.❤

[@agnieszkakolasinska8116]

Thank you for this video. It really hits home. I have been struggling with depression ever since I submitted my thesis and started looking for a new, “real” job. I ended up quitting it within the first couple of months, as what I was going through felt so overwhelming. It is so reassuring to know that I am not the only one struggling to redefine myself having left academia.

[@schmetterling4477]

OK. That will look really good on your future resume. Kids: if you make a mistake, you stay for one year, no matter what. That's the time you have to hang in there to look credible before you move on.

[@cuca_]

@@schmetterling4477 why post your horrible comment?

[@schmetterling4477]

@@cuca_ So that people who are smart enough to analyze them can avoid trivial mistakes. Not you. ;-)

[@alejandrarincon8876]

Wow I'm gonna finish my phD in a few months and I feel some of those feelings. It would be really nice to have a group to share this experiences! 😅PhD helping others PhD.

[@livingoutloudwithDrMimiCheri]

I absolutely thank you for this video!

[@HistoryWithTiffany]

I have been feeling a lot of this starting to bubble. The post-grad world is making me nervous in a way that it never did when I finished my Bachelor’s and Master’s. Wrapping up now and planning to defend and graduate in the spring. Thank you for talking about this!

[@schmetterling4477]

The post-grad world is not that much different from the grad world. You are given a task and you are expected to get it done.

[@clouDndsky]

Hi Andy, I like your videos and your content. don't take to heart the opinions of others who haven't had the experience of earning a PhD and then working in the industry. they haven't worn your shoes. they have a small mindset :) btw I'm working in the industry while writing on my master thesis (a long story - it feels like being odysseus) and I'm aware of those judging people but I'm more focused on what I can learn while working on my side project (thesis). so I have a natural boundary here too. Keep up the awesome content :D

[@ColinPaterson295]

Thanks for this Andy. I'm a old bloke who for 'reasons' has 2 PhDs. I gained one straight after university in 1993 and returned to academia to do a second, graduating last July (2019). While I loved the PhD both times the period following completion was/is hard! I still feel like a fraud and have no idea what I REALLY want to do. My first Phd was from 'not a real uni (it was a polytechnic) and my second was when I had 25 years of experience so everyone kept telling me it was easy for me as I'd done it before, so that doesn't really count either. Don't know if I have any advice, but just wanted to validate what you said here. It certainly helps to talk it through with people you trust though. I really worry for those graduating at this difficult time, it feels like uncertainty squared, it would be great to see a higher level of care from educational institutions in the coming months.

[@DrAndyStapleton]

Thanks, Colin! It can be a real issue when people finish as you feel like a PhD should have allowed you to work out what you want to do - when really it can just confuse the matter. You are right - graduating into this COVID-19 world is really tricky!

[@sivcam]

I submitted my thesis 6 months ago, revisions are done, certificate is in my apartment… and I’m still waiting for my stress to go away, for all those positive feelings to come. I just find out that there is a post phd depression no one ever told me before… it’s scary to have survived ph.d. and then collapse later on…

[@DrMartinObrien]

Great advice Andy! Described very well how i felt after completing my phd. One thing to add is that it can help a lot if you have some job lined up around that time you submit. For example, a 1 to 2 year contract. The work doesn’t need to be related to your phd work, pay well or in a ‘good’ institution or company. It can help to smooth the transition away from the phd, puts some money in your pocket, and you begin to meet new people. Most importantly, it gives you time to think about what to do next …

[@merdekaagussaputra1504]

Andy, I want to remind you that your advice or knowledge about doing a PhD means a lot. It saves many people including me. Thank you very much. I am now doing my PhD in Germany. I hope to meet you in person. I want to thank you to you

[@gabbisworld0805]

Thank you so much for sharing this. I defended just before Covid lockdown. I was depressed before defense and after has been a real struggle as well. I could really relate to many of the things you shared. I am still job searching and will be checking out your other videos too.

[@DrAndyStapleton]

Thank you very much, Dawn! I'm pleased that this video resonated with you and good luck with your job searching! I hope that you feel better soon!

[@deborahdarlienmawi6057]

( I googled about post-ph.d and found this video) I gave my viva a week back. I felt good that there is no longer constant mental tension but it feels surreal. Also I feel empty. Mind is free but the mental freedom is alien to me at this stage, making me uncomfortable. Also I feel older as I think I get time now to feel it or realise it, as compared to always having thesis on my mind. I really relate to the 'Mourning period', I think I am in this period. Feeling lost even though I am teaching at present.

[@Fonzzzish]

Thanks Andy. I really needed to hear this

[@DrAndyStapleton]

You are so welcome - very pleased that this helped!

[@TheNasrouz]

Thank you! Sure feels good to be DONE! And as you said it’s an experience one should go through to understand it’s dimensions

[@stacram87]

Thank you so much for putting words to my feelings. Incredible video

[@baltasarnoreno5973]

Bang on the money, Andrew. It's a very peculiar feeling after completing the thesis. I wouldn't say depression. But very peculiar. You hand over this massive thesis that is the end result of 3-4 years of very intense work. You feel almost a little empty afterwards. This thing that has grown and expanded to occupy all of your time and mind and consume all of your energy. Then it's all over. Very suddenly. No ceremony or formalities. Just a quick trip to some academic office to hand it over. And you wonder what to do with your time. And you wonder what happens next. Perhaps it's a bit like watching your teenage kids move out of the house and move into a shared flat with their friends and that your work is now done. The only time I celebrated it was after the viva itself, when my supervisors and I and a few colleagues from the lab went for a dinner and a pint in the local pub -- the only pub for miles around as I studied at an isolated agricultural sciences campus in the middle of the English countryside.

[@idaisandespha5506]

Thank you for sharing. It was very helpful in validating my feelings after my PhD.

[@jonathanmuller8257]

Haha, you are funny, when you said: "you have to be reintroduced to the society after finishing a Ph.D."

[@zena3413]

🤣

[@OntologyofValue]

I think the biggest problem is that, the closer to the end you get, the more you focus on your thesis and the less you explore your other career options - while in fact, you should do the opposite. Then, when you wake up the day after your defense, you are like: "what now?"

[@sparkequinox]

Defended a while back, just submitted my corrections (minor). I felt everything, and nothing at the same time. I still havent walked the stage so I guess that "done" doesn't feel real. Its truly the most bizarre feeling that just can't be described to anyone outside of PhDs.

[@NanaN495]

What a fantastic video. I like how you frame why we are depressed. You are so right. Thank you for sharing!

[@rebeccaclosure]

This is spot on. Just submitted and now - eeerrrermmmmm

[@danaew3153]

Thank you so much for this video. I defended 3 months ago and about to start a postdoc. I went through hell in grad school and one of the main things I struggle with is feeling like a failure or like I haven’t developed much as a scientist because of all the difficulties. Your video gave me some hope.

[@werringertonney7489]

Starting to feel those feelings now. It’s crazy how that works

[@amalelfoly5944]

Totally agree, thanks for sharing your thoughts ♥

[@rajaandsirivlog5731]

Thank you for making this video

[@jinyoungheo]

Thank you for the video, for it is really detailed in understanding what a phd holder(nonacademic) would feel within several years.. i felt all the feelings mentioned in the video, esp. comparison negativity in research productivity.. i also hope to be redirected in this career path

[@TheMeemkim]

Thank you Andy O:)

[@tutun708]

Amazing video Andy. I have been through that recently.

[@loudletters4u]

I felt the same … this made me launch my KZbin channel to document my life after PhD!

[@ResellDecadence]

Such value! ❤

[@saragomez1801]

I handed my PhD thesis last Monday. I am experiencing all the feelings you discribe in this video. I still have to do my VIVA but as I want to leave academia, I feel lost and not knowing if I am made for working in the real work. Thank you for your videos and congratulations for the number of subscribers!

[@schmetterling4477]

One year later you should have realized just how unnecessary all those feelings were. Your job is way easier than your PhD and it pays five times better. What's there not to like?

[@pitschquitsch6858]

wow thank you sooo much! I needed this so much! Thanks

[@PhDCoffeeTime]

I resonate with this so much, thank you for making this video, Andy! P.S. I have shared it on my FB page for my PhD Coffee Time audience. Hope it may help to grow your channel and reach more people.

[@DrAndyStapleton]

I'm pleased that this helps! And thank you so much for the share!

[@theultimatereductionist7592]

My academic career and especially my Phd were the BEST decisions of my life. THE EXPERIENCES THEMSELVES are how I measure them. I constantly see videos about people celebrating their travel experiences or experiences learning languages. NONE OF THEM MEASURE THE VALUE OF THEM DRAGGING THEIR ASS ALL OVER THE PLANET IN TERMS OF WHETHER IT GOT THEM A JOB OR NOT! So only ILLOGICAL mental inferiors would measure the value of a degree or certification or training by whether it got them a job or not.

[@TheSoupier]

I finished my doctorate in 2017, this issue is still with me today. I'm tired of struggling all the time.

[@nurfarhanaabdrahman9221]

Thank you Andy for your sharing, I've been through all the emotion but I am not aware of it, Let's face this together =)

[@jourytasnim7107]

Thank you. The video is very useful "as usual".

[@chrisogonas]

Amazing thoughts! Thanks

[@pushppatil8015]

I actually went through lots of things as I finished phd just before covid and OMG- I did counselling to get reintroduced to world again. well said. :) BTW- totally agree with each and every word u mentioned- It does happenes and no one helps you- no professor or university staff and family who didnt study.

[@justinw.hendrixph.d.3911]

I had the same thinking. When do I actually celebrate. It was diploma in hand for me. Also that weird feeling when your committee calls you Dr.

[@marcusvos7060]

Perhaps the celebration is when you get your first paycheck after moving to industry

[@werringertonney7489]

Yes!

[@Mountaineer170]

Hey Andy, love your videos, submitted my PhD thesis last week! you said that you'd link your other video about career change after PhD in the video, but not showing up, can you relink it?

[@kavitasharmautube]

Your content is really motivational & inspiring...i need your book on toolkit for writing thesis, in paperback, is it available?

[@DrAndyStapleton]

Not yet. I'll look in to a print on demand service.

[@nonee915]

I fear the same.. i fear being judged but it should not matter becoz no one else is paying my bills

[@akshatrastogi9063]

It sounds like the same as when Morgan Freeman is granted parole from Shawshank in the movie "Shawshank Redemption" but he didn't knew what the outside world is like... 🙁

[@radnukespeoplesminds]

I kinda felt this way after getting my engineering degree

[@fightersquadfreedom6061]

Sir are you married, if so then how did u manage relationships and PhD together

[@schmetterling4477]

PhD happens in the lab. Marriage happens in the kitchen, living room and the bedroom. Do you need us to draw you some diagrams?

[@cuca_]

@@schmetterling4477 another horrible comment with a pinch of misogyny thrown in

[@schmetterling4477]

@@cuca_ There are people who actually have been successful in both departments, kid. Surprise! :-)

[@michapeka2800]

I had depression before PhD :)

[@harishashok6022]

How did you cure yourself?

[@harishashok6022]

Did you live with the depression for 4 long years, doing nothing, binge watching films, losing your shit at your parents or siblings when confronted with reality, being abusive with your parents and cursing them, not interested in going to a job, instead relying on someone to give money like a beggar and live in debt. I have heard this nonsense of a PhD graduate in my family. She made life a living hell for her family. Being controlled by her is like living in jail for her family.

[@moslehmahamud]

i don't even have a PhD, and i am getting this recommended...why?

[@schmetterling4477]

Why not?

[@nyamwayamunthali9252]

Some kind of freedom, but you are always mentally pre-occupied. Then people are so excited for you and you feel like you have just started (you are at the bottom of the academic barrel).

[@schmetterling4477]

There is no academic barrel. If you haven't lined up your academic career with a dozen publications by the time you are halfway through your PhD, then there will be no academic career. Why do you want one, anyway? Did you learn nothing from the divorces of your professors and the daily schedule of your adviser????

[@MisterTutor2010]

Job at an explosives company? Sounds like a blast :)

[@theultimatereductionist7592]

What is your PhD in? I did a quick spot check of your main channel page. ALL you post are OPINION videos about trends trends trends. I did not see even ONE video about the CONTENT of your PhD.

[@UCKszbcV]

You have the surname of the murderer of The Hound of the Baskervilles...

[@CoolGuyWithShoesOn]

Most of these comments are academics talking about themselves lol

[@schmetterling4477]

I had a job at a US national laboratory before I even had my PhD. What is wrong with all of you????

[@chiragsharma5050]

How you get it without phd is it a research position?

[@schmetterling4477]

@@chiragsharma5050 I knew a scientist who had a problem for which I had the answer already and so I interviewed six months or so before I was done with my PhD thesis with the department head. The head was perfectly happy with me and told HR to hire me as soon as they could. By the time I had the diploma they had created the position and gotten the funding. It was rather lucky that my thesis work fit perfectly into the project. "Lucky" is, of course, a relative word. I had been working on that contact for three years, already, by participating in the science collaboration as an unpaid fly on the wall. In science that's pretty easy. Nobody minds having an unpaid hand. The hard part is always the funding. I don't think this is a very special story or that I did a particularly outstanding job "landing" that opportunity. A friend of mine toured a dozen European and US universities as a guest speaker to find a research position for himself (he eventually got one in Berlin). The simple fact is that they don't just give positions away these days (or probably ever). One has to work and sometimes fight for them. I am not saying that that is how it should be. It's just what it is and if you want an academic position, then you will have to go after one with more than just minimum effort.