Post-truth politics have “DOOMED” the UK | Armando Iannucci | the New Statesman

In a world of post-truth politics, the UK is “doomed” - Armando Iannucci
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In this episode, Armando Iannucci and Anoosh Chakelian examine how UK politics and democracy can survive in a post-truth world. The term “post-truth politics” originated in the UK during the Scottish independence referendum and has remained a facet of British politics through the 2016 Brexit referendum to today. With the rise of “fake news” accusations from leaders such as Donald Trump to Liz Truss’ label of the anti-growth coalition - how can politics survive in a post-truth world?
Iannucci and Chakelian are joined by Mae Dobbs, a political consultant who's worked on both Obama and Biden's election campaign, and James ball, an investigative journalist, reporter and author of the book Post-truth, how bullshit conquered the world.
Together they explore how “fake news” affects everyone, whether they be on the left, the right and the centre. Ball in fact argues that misinformation can be “more dangerous” amongst those in the centre ground of politics because centrists think “that they’re the sensible, measured ones.”
Misinformation in the modern day may largely be driven by social media. Dobbs argues that regulation of sites like Facebook and Twitter is crucial to combatting post-truth politics, as the algorithms of these sites “force people” down conspiracist rabbit hole such as Qanon.
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The writer, satirist and broadcaster Armando Iannucci, returns to the New Statesman Podcast to co-host our third series of Westminster Reimagined. In six special episodes Iannucci explores parts of British public life he believes to be broken, and is joined by guests from inside and outside Westminster to work out how to fix things
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The New Statesman brings you unrivalled analysis of of the latest UK and international politics. On our KZbin channel you’ll find insight on the top news and global current affairs stories, as well as insightful interviews with politicians, advisers and leading political thinkers, to help you understand the political and economic forces shaping the world.
With regular contributions from our writers including Political Editor Andrew Marr and Anoosh Chakelian - host of the New Statesman podcast - we’ll help you understand the world of politics and global affairs from Westminster to Washington and beyond.
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[@rustworker]

I’m not a big fan of Frankie Boyle and his attitudes but I think he got it right with “Bankers are thieves. You are not living through a depression, you are living through a robbery”. That is the bottom line - not just bankers but all the 2% of the richest.

[@evolassunglasses4673]

The Left has embraced the open borders Globalisation project driven by the Bankers and has no solutions.

[@jbri1]

Of course. People get depressed, economies don't.

[@mhtbfecsq1]

Yes that's been obvious for years but unfortunately the British public are a bit (or very) slow on the uptake

[@grahamcook9289]

You mean Frankie sick boy Boyle?

[@rustworker]

@@grahamcook9289 That will be the one

[@rmoffat44]

Can I just point out that the Nick Robinson incident in the Scottish 2014 referendum was - Robinson asked Alex Salmond at a press conference about currency. Salmond answered. Robinson repeated the question I think twice more, and Salmond answered each time, and more fully. Later on BBC news Robinson presented the exchange edited to remove what Salmond said, and commented "he didn't answer". Other news outlets were there, and by the time Robinson's report went out the full exchange was available on KZbin, so it was absolutely obvious that Robinson had flat out lied. Is it any wonder that people were seriously angry?

[@RobBCactive]

Robert I think I actually found the clip "BBC's Nick Robinson telt by Alec Salmond" on Reeky Auld channel. The questions asked were about RBS moving its HQ to London and BP claim that oil/gas would run out by 2020. The question of trust of a Scottish politician over business leader recycled claims was answered referring to the UK gov & media briefing, looking for negative independence statements. Salmond mentioned an inquiry into the disinformation. But broadly the comments show you are right, in 2014 Scots were incensed at the BBC coverage. The error Salmond made was in trying to answer questions honestly in detail, rather than paint dubious catchy slogans on blue & white buses. Now with the clear political management of the BBC ensuring gov messaging is not embarrassed by too many facts, the consequences of failing to hold HMG to account has become clear. Brexit, Covid corruption, being above the law and the failure to maintain standards has destroyed the UK

[@RobBCactive]

Thanks for drawing attention to this, I was in Europe during Indyref and wasn't aware of this blatant disinformation case. Newscotland-tv has the BBC outrageous mash up on Alec Salmond's answer to show how outrageous it was. "Nick Robinson caught lying about Alec Salmond's answer 2014" shows their version.

[@thegamingeconomist3831]

I remember that incident well. There were other blatant distortions from the BBC and particularly the print media during the 2014 independence campaign. The newspapers would print absolute lies from the No campaign, and the broadcasters would treat them as fact. Question Time was also a complete farce as audiences in Scotland were clearly loaded with UKIP shills despite them having virtually no vote in Scotland. Later the audience manager was dismissed as it turned out she was rabidly pro-Brexit. Whilst in some ways it has improved, the BBC is still ridiculously pro-Tory with many of its "journalists" clearly having direct links to the Tory party. Laura Kuennsberg, Andrew Neil and Allegra Stratton would routinely parrot Tory propaganda without challenge. They weren't journalists - they were placed to push an agenda. The only broadcaster I even remotely trust is Channel 4 News, and the Tories are desperate to shut them down.

[@johnwright9372]

Journalistic ethics are now largely a sham.

[@fredatlas4396]

@rmoffat44 Absolutely. And what's happened to the other replies on your comment.. If people would just stop voting for the con-servative party things would get better. Maybe not perfect, but at least somewhat better than they are now and heading in the right direction

[@nickjanczak9665]

The social contract was broken years ago! Is it just starting to impact on the luvvies now, because they have to pay higher prices on their fuel bills?

[@calumroche2851]

Professionals can't buy houses! The horror! 😱 Shame the New Statesman & Guardian were so complicit in vilifying Corbyn and didn't read the reasons for the support he had, and thought they could continue with business as usual with "sensible" centrist politics in a completely changed landscape.l

[@richardvoller9204]

Lying by politicians must be punished severely and instantly . If you ignore this then nothing has any value and corruption quickly follows.

[@theondebray]

Corruption well & truly established already!

[@phillipjclay5817]

The thing about social contract breakdown is right. In 2001 I quit heroin and went to work in recovery services. I worked in Leeds until 2007 and decided to work in different regions. I was paid £24.5 for doing group work and 1 to 1 case management. So in 2022 I returned to Leeds doing some temp work. My colleagues where still being paid 24 to 25k after 15 years. I actually applied for a post and couldn't get more than 25k with 20 years experience so turned the job down. These are workers doing difficult jobs with challenging high needs people and so they are doing what they should without a pay rise. It's absolutely disgusting. And before anyone says they could go work for someone else the new services are commissioned as monopolises so you can't choose anything else is you want to work with addicts. The overdose death rate has tripled as well which shows the services are subpar.

[@Fredmayve]

Thanks for trying. We need to be active in our unions, we need to be organising. Good luck in whatever you do.

[@MazzaEliLi7406]

@@Fredmayve Look up Joe Hill - Norwegian & USA citizen - his watchword was 'organise'. Cheers.

[@tolhumexy6706]

@@MazzaEliLi7406 and Beau of the Fifth Column on here.

[@MazzaEliLi7406]

@@tolhumexy6706 Yup. I too have caught some of 'Beaus' videos but there are too many political videos to follow religiously. I am English & living in England so tend to prioritise European Matters but I do take an interest in the Americas too (mostly North America because of Canada). Cheers.

[@tolhumexy6706]

@@MazzaEliLi7406 I'm English as well but it is just so nice to watch someone who uses facts rather than bias. It's worth watching as Bojo and the Tories take notes from the Repugnant party so it is good to be prepared!

[@cheekyboy5000]

Are you saying Liz truss wasn't evil? She courted Tufton street and hung out in Mayfair clubs courting billionaires. Aiming to enrich the richest in society with an economic plan that has never worked, other than to make rich people (and their supporters) richer. That is evil. She isn't just another bally jolly good egg at the stump, old chap.

[@ince55ant]

i think shes just dumb. like entirely superficial. she wants to attend parties and have her picture taken. thats as deep as her character gets. she repeats the lines that are fed to her. The manufacturing consent machine just filters through people (whom take on every possible view point) and finds the one person that fits their cause. i.e. someone easily fooled into repeating demonstably wrong ideas and unlikely to protest since they want to go to the fancy parties in the fancy buildings...

[@dobson156_xjs7]

You're literally giving the very example of centerist post truth presented in open remarks. Well done.

[@sprobablycancr4457]

@@dobson156_xjs7 That's all on the record though.

[@jelkel25]

Do you think Corbyns election campaign was bank rolled by the spare change of the grateful proletariat and unions? He went to billionaires and corporations just like all the rest. No one in these times is going to hammer on the doors of the rich to shake them down beyond making a show of it, their real money probably isn't in this country anyway and they can move their businesses to a more accommodating country in a matter of weeks, old chap.

[@pepegalego]

But notice the language you are using: "evil"? Is she on a par with dictators, mass murderers or religious zealots? I hardly think so.

[@waldorfmcvitty4854]

A huge problem is that we simply do not hold politicians to account. We allow them to get away with lie after lie, so of course public trust falls to a point where we no longer trust any of them.

[@Bernard-ux2eb]

I trust three politicians. Andrew Bridgen Sir Christopher Chope Danny Kruger

[@waldorfmcvitty4854]

@@Bernard-ux2eb I used to trust Alex Salmond... But more out of hopeful thinking than anything else.

[@Bernard-ux2eb]

@@waldorfmcvitty4854 These three are the only ones standing up for the health and safety and frankly, future of the British people. That's 0.46% of sitting Members of Parliament.

[@waldorfmcvitty4854]

@@Bernard-ux2eb Actually i do have a fair amount of trust in Mhari Black, but again its hopeful. But this is of our own making, as i am sure there are more trustful politicians we just dont hear about. For too long we have allowed this, and if we are not careful it is going to get a lot worse. These last 6 years have been horrendous for our democracy.

[@Bernard-ux2eb]

@@waldorfmcvitty4854 Base it on actions, any MP who stands up against Coof/injection tyranny. We're at 0.46% of sitting members doing this right now.

[@smoozerish]

Britian is hurtling towards failed state status

[@reaceness]

...Is it, though?

[@climatedeniersbelonginasyl4191]

The World is hurtling towards collapse

[@olivermccarthy7081]

If Sir Keir Starmer ever becomes PM we'll know we're there.

[@sheilasmith7991]

Not really.

[@fredfredrickson5436]

If we genuinely had access to the truth there would be little room left for politics.

[@fredatlas4396]

The truth is out there. We just need to engage our brains, do some critical thinking, keep an open mind and look for the evidence

[@thrownstair]

The word “politics” comes from the Greek “polis”, meaning city, like in “metropolis”. Basically meaning affairs of the city. We need an anthropics, the affairs of the people. Anyone who disagrees can be called a new term I came up with: mis-anthropic.

[@ChristopherPhillips]

This guy has got a nerve. Our institutions and MPs tried to break the social construct by dedicating years to preventing the outcome of the referendum. He supported such actions.

[@jimsmith4611]

LIES HAVE BEEN THE NEW TRUTH FOR DECADES.

[@matt_cummins28]

This is almost as funny as The Thick of It! Thanks as ever to Anoosh and Armando, and to your guests Mae Dobbs and James Ball. Great - dare I say "Adult" - discussion. Has quickly become one of my favourite things on KZbin. Thank you.

[@paxiahern2383]

"If you have to, take a screenshot and then post a brand new post." Most helpful point presented. Thank you.

[@Sasripper]

4 people with the same opinions agree on everything for 30 minutes! ...

[@aurelia5614]

Why is that a problem? Does it always have to be a conflictual model? Why not 4 people offering their experience, insights, solutions, strategies, etc., to better challenge an obvious problem in the system?

[@Sasripper]

@@aurelia5614 It creates echo chambers which lead to people believing their view is the correct and only view. Disagreement is not conflict, and having one's opinions challenged is part of the scientific method..

[@frankshailes3205]

@@Sasripper No it doesn't.

[@pauljohnson1664]

I think a lot of our problems come from the MSM and the political class. That have lost the plot.

[@theondebray]

They haven't lost the plot, they control the plot.

[@andrewlucas6214]

The word post truth assumes that there was a time when politicians and journalists were honest. Now, the blame is put on the people who don’t know what to believe so piece together bits they can to try and understand the mess that the leaders are making. If out situation is not nefarious, how bad are our politicians and journalists?

[@adliberate]

Leaders should be boring. We only notice things when they are going wrong which is a reason why social media is so divisive. A good leader just does their job without fuss, doesn't engage people's emotions for their own or parties ends, recognises the good things and ideas the opposition does and has and keeps out of everyone's way.

[@dreddiknight]

I found the initial conceit of the equivalence between the right and left wing interesting. There seems to me to be a huge difference between them, and the right comes out looking a great deal worse in almost every metric from telling the truth/lies, aggression, violence both verbal and physical, danger to society and authoritarianism. Not even close. Secondly, the idea that you can talk about this stuff and reduce ideas of conspiracies as ridiculous despite having a situation where 1. ALL MAINSTREAM MEDIA IS OWNED BY BILLIONAIRES, who have their own interests which is paramount. 2. It is a fact that Billionaires and the Koch's in particular, have clearly been infiltrating their ideas and ideals into the Republican party since the early 80's after they lost the election. 3. Lobbying from all of these sources has changed politics and the lives of the poor majority forever. The only answer is to break down the current system because it is obviously rigged and we're being coaxed into believing MMS is still neutral and politicians aren't in the pockets of any corporation or monied entity.

[@ince55ant]

kinda wild that basically everyone, at the very least, is aware of Manufacturing Consent, yet there seems to have been zero societal response or anti-thesis to it since it was published... Also post Snowden the increased coercive force of Intelligence services on even left leaning papers like the guardian is just disgusting. Totally agree, things are broken beyond repair at this point. I expect a future where each day is worse than the last until the day i die or theres a spontaneous uprising

[@14478100]

Well said. This false equivalence shows how unserious the discussion really is.

[@kelvinpell4571]

The left is FAR worse than the right. The left is the side that wants to "limit" freedom of speech and leftists always turn angry and threatening when their dogma is challenged, simply because their positions are indefensible and they know it. The so-called left and right are two sides of the same coin, except that we know what the right are doing generally.....the left always pretend they are doing what they do out of concern and compassion, and it's a lie. They crave power for it's own sake; but with theor media allies do a good job of fooling gullible people.

[@danieladams9950]

Great contributors. The theme of being perceived as sincere for speaking one's belief when the belief is nonsense is insidious and worrying.

[@jezlawrence720]

Thats the entire issue: we've started conflating sincerity of beleif with being correct.

[@Patrick-jj5nh]

I love this series, well anything with Armando is brilliant. Plus now James Ball - what a great run. Thanks.

[@albertbrammer9263]

The "thing that people care about" is what they are told to care about. The DM tell people to care about immigrants "invading", so people care about it.

[@philipberthiaume2314]

But it's not just social media. A person was arrested in the United Kingdom for holding up a sign saying 'Not my king'. It seems that it really boils down to a poor sense of judgment.

[@aliasgharkhoyee9501]

It's easy to blame certain groups, difficult to be nuanced and accurate. From social to print to television, all media has its flawed incentives to increase its user base and revenues by hook or by crook. It's how much each outlet gives into that temptation.

[@danieladams9950]

I found it very jarring watching England football players song God Bless Our Gracious King. When has Charles provided any evidence of grace?

[@evolassunglasses4673]

Open borders Globalisation driven by international finance is destroying the West.

[@davidgaskin5417]

Be careful not to just go with the sensational headline story, soundbite. People can be arrested by the police for causing a public nuisance - often the police use this for the person's own protection. To start antagonising a large group of people like this person was, meant it was better for the police to step in and Shepard him away....we'd have all complained if the crowd had turned on him and the police stood by and did nothing.

[@nommohunzuu9298]

@@danieladams9950apart from staged photo ops and Public Relations campaigns? Not a lot. Any veil of grace and philanthropy is wiped away by the parasitical Duchy of Cornwall and living as a overpaid freeloader.

[@ToCoSo]

Teaching my teens how to survive social media is very insightful. We all want to be part of something, the companies have algorithms designed to enrage us, not being on social media makes you feel like you arent part of modern life, but it real helps you get back to old school robust mental health.

[@Andrew-rc3vh]

You enrage yourselves. You see if something has an enraging headline then the public are more likely to read it, so the algorithm feeds you what you want.

[@Razmatazuk]

Yes the creators of social media apps are very clever and use manipulative tools to engage people. They studied the human mind and know that offering rewards provides dopamine hits, so all those likes and upvotes become a sort of social drug. Withdrawal either voluntarily or not can cause people depression and anxiety. But its what we must do. Eventually if you stay away from it, the effects diminish

[@ToCoSo]

@@Razmatazuk yes I have recently moved to Mastodon which doesn't give you the dopamine hits of likes and works more like searching for information and views, I find it works really well for me as I can still find connections with people but not feel addicted to it.

[@Andrew-rc3vh]

@@Razmatazuk You can train the algorithm yourself. Never click on clickbait and if the video is doing what you mention you mark it as do not show me any more from this channel. It's only when you have properly trained your algorithm do you get to the really intelligent videos. You will know if you do because the view count will go down. A world expert level video will typically have about 50 views.

[@Listlesscheese]

Love this podcast, thank you Anoosh and Armando. There needs to be some global legislation over social media. We need to collude with other western countries, perhaps form a coalition with local democracies. Create a union of Europe perhaps to give power to truth

[@knightstemplar8977]

Don't forget the BBC and Project Fear !

[@airingcupboard]

This really took off after 2008 - the banking crisis and ensuing sovereign debt crisis (and the way none of the people behind it face justice and how everyone else ended up paying for it. ). The UK and US also do politics with two main parties and fewer other views to moderate the debate and likewise neither of them have a coherent politic story anymore. Those societies also privilege the individual and have idealised that for the past 40 years. Together with that there's postmodernism and the way the Internet embedded and built on its logic. All those factors come together in the way people seem to 'create' their own truth these days.

[@martycrow]

Like looking for Occam's Razor through an Overton Window.

[@ElGordo1959]

Thanks - I just learnt/learned something 🙂

[@martycrow]

@@ElGordo1959 haha! Good of you to say. YT comments are usually hate filled, sarcastic or to sell cryptoporn. 😂

[@ElGordo1959]

@@martycrow 😅well given the topic you'd hope that there would be a more rational viewership, but as Tay Tay says, haters gonna hate! I do think that the Overton Window should be added to the Play School window options as a starting point for early education hahaha

[@robertloader9826]

I don’t think you could pick a more wincingly representative cross-section of the metropolitan liberal elite. It’s never lads from Salford on these things is it…

[@waldorfmcvitty4854]

And those lads from Salford have been educated to a level where they know what they are talking about? Also many many podcasts do exist where they invite opinions from anyone and everyone, some deliberately only target 'lads from Salford' to be their guests.

[@jezlawrence720]

Various popular culture references apply here: #1 a lie will get round the world before the truth has got it's boots on. (Terry pratchett) #2 "the more you tighten your grip, the more systems will slip through your fingers" (star wars: Leia about the Empire) #3 pratchett again: the vimes boots theory of economics. This applies to healthy food, good insulation, and the persistence of wealth inequality. It's worrying that collectively we can't seem to grasp these truths, but we'll embrace "get brexit done" and "build back better" as articles of blind faith.

[@howtoappearincompletely9739]

Please explain what "the vimes boots theory of economics" is.

[@jezlawrence720]

One cannot be told what the vimes boots theory of economics is. One can only Google it for oneself. :P

[@andrewhotston983]

Also, does the breakdown of the social contract also apply to the police, who refuse to help ordinary people (and indeed threaten them with arrest) held up by Just Stop Oil protesters, and instead facilitate the protests?

[@LeoOrientis]

Very important points, both of them... Social media amplifies the polarization for profit... And the polarization's _true_ source is the broader political currents that have managed to reverse the post-WWII engines of social mobility and equality. My father bought many new new cars - and later a house - with extra cash he managed to save from his job as a _church organist._ I'm a computer programmer and data engineer... and I've never owned new car. And certainly not a ground-level detachaed house. I have friends who are bank executives. And even they don't dare dream of owning a ground-level house in their own city. This is not irony or sarcasm. Something has gone (generationally) very wrong. And it's not surprising that people target the more superficial ways that society has changed. And get seduced by nationalist ideologies. Because globalization _is_ the source of the problem. But not because it brings us people who look diffierent from us. But rather because it offshores the ways that ordinary people used to prosper. And then tells them they're stupid for having not chosen their parents more carefully. For not having been among the few in the capitalist class. How stupid of us!

[@dinnerwithfranklin2451]

Well said.

[@banedon8087]

I agree with much of what you say. However, I'm not sure that what we're seeing is a determined wish to be nationalistic, but rather the end result of some long standing grievances over not being listened to. Eventually, people get more and more desparate and eventually reach for solutions that, in other times, they would ordinarily not have. Get enough people doing this and you get something like Brexit. Putting aside the enourmous lies that were told and the toxic way it was conducted, it exposed a long running disgruntlement with things like mass immigration (emphasis on 'mass' as regulated immigration is fine), dictats from the EU and how far away they seemed, etc. - all concerns which were roundly mismissed and those voicing concerns absolutely villified. The whole thing was avoidable.

[@ironmitchtyson]

Love the bias. You have no idea how you created a monster. This is on the posho, condescending left very well represented here

[@TheHappyFallen]

"Biden is an authentic character" These people are so naive 🙄

[@climatedeniersbelonginasyl4191]

He belongs to the one party that exists in the USA: the business party

[@stephenelkington4971]

Quite - Biden is a disaster. His only virtue is that he isn't Trump.

[@kelvinpell4571]

They aren't....they are pushing an agenda. The agenda of leftist globalism.

[@weareallbeingwatched4602]

In the "good old days" the fact free politics was delivered by the church and various warlords.

[@scottanderson2458]

Amen to that

[@jonathantodhunter8407]

In the current journalists do not challenge politicians often replying to different questions or avoiding the issue or straight out lying. A lot of responsibility lies with quality journalists.

[@kelvinpell4571]

They never question leftists in any serious way. They are part of the left. I recall James Naughtie on the Today programme on the BBC saying "we" lost; not Labour lost, when Cameron won in 2015 A Freudian slip, but a telling one.

[@colinthompson3111]

Really enjoyed this discussion. Great subject.

[@lazystalker1]

"Don't believe everything you read on the internet" __ Abraham Lincoln

[@bristolfashion4421]

The simple fact is that there is enough money to go around, but the rich have figured out the best ways to move around any effective opposition... ordinary people have lost whatever power they used to have. And importantly, *nobody has any idea what to do next* .

[@christopherhitchens5189]

Mae Dobbs on Biden: “A good person and a family man” True, like her hair is blue.

[@LuisCarruthers]

The fact that left-wing journalists don't care about Biden's mental decline, his sexual assault allegations, or the numerous videos of him sniffing children's hair is proof that nobody actually believes in anything. Would these people be so charitable if a Republican candidate was getting people's names wrong?

[@catinthehat906]

But 12:05 Biden gaffes are good presumably Boris gaffes are bad.

[@LuisCarruthers]

@@catinthehat906 It is quite depressing what partisan hacks these people are while agreeing with each other about how they're not partisan hacks.

[@drrobairebeckwith3687]

The post-truth movement also impacts the work of scientists and clinicians who now find their statements, based on evidence-based research, are continually and quite aggressively challenged as being just an opinion and seen as a perspective that must be balanced by opposing ‘opinions’. This is especially stark when the consequences can critical, such as with medical advice, epidemiology, vaccines, biodiversity loss and climate change and so on. Many scientists/doctors are tending to keep their heads below the parapet now for fear of unfounded criticism, abuse, media trolling and even threats. The situation can feel very restrictive and deeply unsettling. Expert insight (in science) is now often disregarded and ridiculed. It was remarkable seeing Dr Fauci, in the US, making a determined stand and railing against an onslaught of irrationality which also involved the ‘president’. Informed insight and advice is written off as being fake without looking at the evidence base that underpins it because it is not what some wish to hear or take account of

[@LuisCarruthers]

Do you remember when leading scientists kept using the phrase 'The Science' about their opinions? That wasn't very rational. Fauci used to say Covid-19 vaccines prevented infections like it was a fact, but it was never a fact at all. It was totally untrue all along. The experts told us vaccine passports were scientifically sound but they never were. There is no scientific basis for vaccine passports because the vaccines neither stop infection or transmission.

[@pepegalego]

An interesting conversation, but but I think what was missing was one of the underlining problems in modern politics and social platforms; activists have a free reign to do whatever on social media. The most extreme or minor political group now have an equal standing with the most established, measured or mainstream groups. Inevitably it goes to the extremes. Also, as James Ball demonstrated, it is all IN YOUR FACE. "I'm gay" he announces proudly, as if it were important to the conversation or to anyone in particular...it is not, but it now becomes part of the political discourse and helps to drive the divisive "whose side are you on?" political debate that we live in now.

[@gretareinarsson7461]

Sadly there is more money to be made of anger then joy, hate then love, war then peace.

[@alaninsoflo]

The social media problem is fixed by one simple change. Legally reclassify the companies as publishers and not as media companies. No heavy handed regulation is required like that blue haired woman called for.

[@tanyachou4474]

Best episode so far👍🏻

[@ramatgan1]

These people are sick!

[@harrybarrow6222]

You said that teachers are hard pressed, which is true, so you did not want to push more work onto them… However, I think that there are some things not currently being taught that absolutely SHOULD be taught. Probably number one of these is skepticism and critical thinking. This is fundamental to science but should be more widely expressed and applied in everyday life. The motto of the Royal Society is “Nullius in verba”, loosely translated as “Take nobody’s word for it.” Scientists are trained to look for flaws in each others work, and writings. We should all look for the flaws - and biases - in what we read, see, and hear every day. All media outlets seem to have strong party biases - even the hallowed BBC, with a Tory-appointed, Tory-supporting DG, news reporters, and editors. Sadly, no politician tells the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. At the very least, they highlight and exaggerate their and their party’s successes and achievements, while minimising or ignoring the failures. They are, after all, sales men and women in order to get into power.

[@whitewittock]

Why is there a 1 year delay between recording and uploading?

[@martycrow]

Yes, would be helpful, perhaps 'authentic', to state the date of recording.

[@bigdaz7272]

Clown Island. Formally The United Kingdom.

[@scottanderson2458]

National anthem - the circus march ... dum, dum, diddle idle, dum dum dada 🤡

[@bigdaz7272]

@@scottanderson2458 I always think of Masquerade Suite - Waltz kzbin.info/www/bejne/nIHTZISeYqyFp9U

[@chrisgosling5408]

@@scottanderson2458 funnily enough the music you are refering to is called "Entry of the gladiators" and was composed by Fucik. How it ended up as clown music I have no idea other than it works well.

[@scottanderson2458]

@@chrisgosling5408Interesting, thanks Chris didn't know that. The Roman elite did refer to the food and entertainment as " bread and circuses " so maybe the conflation came from the historical phrase.

[@jonathonjubb6626]

If Biden is so pure what was on the laptop?

[@tonycook7679]

Once upon a time, long, long ago, to call a politician a "populist" was an insult. It essentially meant that instead of leading from a well thought out, detailed vision for a future, you just parroted what your supporters said you should do. The original idea of a representative democracy was that you elected someone to be the "father" of the country because you felt that he/she had the right qualities of experience and vision to be a leader. Now everyone wants to elect a poplist because "they will do what the populace want". What happened to doing what the populace need, not what they want today for no good reason at all other than it was something that grabbed their unsophisticated easily distracted attention. Mind you representative democracy does break down when you insist on thinking that the Tories can fill this role.

[@123Thucydides]

Loved the discussion. I am right of centre politically on most things but I do think that we are better when we are willing to discuss issues without ignoring the facts. I am also an Nuclear Engineer and facts are important! You can not eat garlic and safely take that spent nuclear fuel home with you, no matter what anybody says!

[@andygardner4568]

Great podcast. One point that could’ve been unpacked more is how ‘authenticity’ is not the same as truthfulness - obvs as T***p most exemplifies. Also, the point about the social contract is bang on, but one could add that another thing which has broken down alongside that is consent for compromise, which is necessary for democracy to function.

[@raf2681]

I think what is very wrong in British social-politics live is an education. Regulating social media companies may help but there will be always argument what is a truth and what is a lie. There will be always people that even in the biggest lie you can find a little of truth. Because everything is grey and there is no white or black I think we should focus on educating people even more how to read news and how to verify or make up they own minds. I am thinking here about education system in Britain which under conservative government for so many years is heavily underfunded. They way to go is Scandinavian approach but currently it is impossible to implement because conservatives have their own private education system and they are happy. The remaining population is not even aware what they are missing...

[@tonyduncan9852]

_"education system in Britain which under conservative government for so many years is heavily underfunded"_ - by the Conservative 1922 Committee, and later in 1972 in the Selsdon Plan. Details are hard to find on either, but a _long_ history of damage to British education has been the product. People have forgotten. . .

[@theondebray]

Agreed. Note that the Nat Curric has been heavily controlled since introduction in 1990 - I woz there. A 'shut up, do as you're told & learn what we tell you to learn' curriculum.

[@ianinglis5354]

Thank you so much for this wonderful open conversation, it was a breath of fresh air. Really enjoyed it but also very informative.

[@kinorspielmann4649]

Agree 100%. And this needed saying!

[@badusername4]

This reminds me of the sickness of “if I say I’m not crazy” . It’s a horrible time that I can’t see us leaving for a decade

[@tidtidy4159]

What about Cambridge analytica? Is that a conspiracy theory?

[@jezlawrence720]

In the UK we broke the link from place to culture / community in the 80s and 90s. Then we introduced social media and encouraged communities based on fully shared values and ostracism of different ones, i.e. bubbles without a way to bring the various bubbles into venn-like overlaps. If you wanted to design a way to cause fragmentation and deadlock... You'd be hard pressed to pick a better one than that: this is just the first time we've had the technology to do it. Of course, it's also the first time we've had the technology to get through a pandemic lockdown with relatively little loss of life and living standards (it's still been very bad!!) - it isn't the technology that drives that, but it's the core enabler. So for social media I fully agree: legislation. But for social contract? The bubble genie is out of the bottle. The link to place is smashed. In my view, we can't restore how things were, we need to redesign how our democracy works to be able to govern in the new reality rather than what has been happening which is that politicians have adapted to *exploit* the new reality to hang onto power. The checks and balances are for a world that no longer exists. I think we need to move away from first past the post to something more representational and we need to design in citizen assemblies to make sure both place issues and cross cutting "values" issues are properly discussed and policies taken on from that - including developing useful social media regulation policies. Although we shouldn't wait to get started on that element.

[@evolassunglasses4673]

Unfortunately the Left has embraced open borders Globalisation driven by the Bankers and has no solutions.

[@Fredmayve]

You must be mad if you think the Tories or Starmer would do anything about these things. We have to reorganise.

[@jezlawrence720]

@@Fredmayve don't think I said I thought either of them could deliver any of it.

[@MarcasLancaster]

The term ‘Post-Truth’ presupposes access to ‘the truth’ but outside the realms of purely formal enquiry there are no such things as ‘facts’. ‘Truth’ about reality is not ‘given’ but is rather dependant on interpretation. As Kant almost said ‘perceivers without concepts are blind’.

[@Alan_Duval]

This discussion reminds me of something Jon Stewart said in an interview. He was talking about how Hillary Clinton was obviously putting on her 'stump personality' or something to that effect, and he said that he found it heartening that this was the case, because the other side is "rendering their inauthenticity in real-time."

[@DenianArcoleo]

The manner in which the four are interracting, and even the manner in which they physically present themselves (particularly the two guests), speaks volumes.

[@MrMassivefavour]

I don't think it helps that when someone truly authentic comes along the ENTIRETY of the system clicks in to crush him. The only conspiracies of note worth considering are Our policy class on all sides are truly, truly bad quality and our representatives are NOT calling the shots

[@user-rd7ek9ve3r]

The idea of something you believe being as valid as something that is factually true

[@kinorspielmann4649]

How refreshing to hear intelligent, openminded conversation, on such an important topic. In place of the usual scripted soundbite, one-track, kneejerk, simplistic, self-promoting narcisist, partisan, tribal or low-grade variety so prevalent whether in the MSM or on social media. Unfortunately, I can't say the same about some of the comments below.

[@mdb3040]

It would have been interesting for them to discuss the Labour Party and the AS allegations relating to this topic. Especially as the New Statesman played an instrumental part in warning voters of the ‘dangers’ of a Labour anti austerity government and therefore ensuring a Conservative win. Funny how since The Forde Report was published, we haven’t heard much of an update from NS about a subject they were obviously very passionate about in the past 🤔

[@MatthewCharmanadventures]

It is somewhat perverse that the desire for authenticity has led to the most staggeringly inauthentic characters (Trump, Johnson etc). People say they don't want to be lied to, but then they trip over themselves to support some of the most staggering liars in the world.

[@lisaglaze250]

Authentic liars though 🤷🏻‍♀️

[@ronaldreid2185]

Thanks, that was superb. It genuinely made me think.

[@andrewcook9004]

The Conservative election that preceded the Brexit vote was the consolidation of it - since then it's just become more visible. The electoral commission failed in their duty. The media were playing to agendas from other nation states including Russia and Israel - MI6 failed in its duty as did the Conservative party itself (as an organisation supposedly bound to democratic principle) through its inability to contain its more extreme factions. It's only 250 years since we overthrew the richest country in the world - India - not for ourselves, but on behalf of the British East India Company, a private cartel - which then because the richest entity in the world. I am guessing that the power structures remaining from that little incident are still in place and we're seeing them on the rise again.

[@kelvinpell4571]

So you are suggesting that, presumably because you disagreed with the result, the Conservative election win was somehow "invalid"? To the point that Israel?? and Russia were agents of interference? I suppose however, you would contend the 2020 U.S election result WAS valid, because the outcome was more to your liking?

[@andrewcook9004]

The post-truth age is full of such contradictions. We are all left cherry picking our sources of information, because truth (certainly in politics, and in most other spheres where a lot of money is sloshing around) is defined by whose truth you happen to trust. That said, you have rather twisted my statement round. I'm not prejudiced against the conservative party (though maybe biased). I don't believe the above just because it's conservatives - I just see a lot of people in power (who all happen to be in in the conservative party) who don't believe the rules (inc the rule of law) should apply to them. And I see them being supported by an extremely biased media that chooses to turn a blind eye and spread obfuscations. It was a fair question as to whether Russia/Putin interfered in our last election (as well as Brexit). And it seems to be coming out via a parliamentary committee investigation that's that we don't have an answer because the Government has actually issued instructions (!) that nobody looks too hard in that direction.

[@pipash3953]

Yes booing journalists is a uniquely stupid way to erode/destroy accountability in politics. Well done, everyone.

[@loriscunado3607]

Love is the answer

[@BritishRosie-es3zr]

Political argument has now turned into just expressing opinion based on personal mindset and agenda. Debate uses little or no facts any more, it's quite alarming.

[@dinnerwithfranklin2451]

And incredibly frustrating if you are trying to counter those opinion facts with observable fact.

[@tidtidy4159]

I just stick to the science, its measurable.

[@Rnankn]

The thing is there are few truths. Most of human society depend on constructs, which require only consensus. In the natural world, science can find likely truth, but through advances often refine or revise those truths. So post-truth is just an acknowledgement of our reality as composed of social facts, which are being contested by offering alternative interpretations. But politics, which concerns public issues has relied on economics which falsely pretends it is a science. So to some, any deviation from standard economics is proof of illiteracy, while others want to amend or retire economic theory entirely. It is absurdly epistemic mess, where one side sees their rivals as idiots, and the other side sees their rivals as fascists.

[@alancornes8916]

Good discussion. James seems to undermine the possibility of any conspiracy theories actually being true - which may be a conspiracy in itself.

[@howarddavis2281]

It's not breaking down. It's well gone.

[@glasshopper2010]

Great discussion

[@TalonAshlar]

The solution to problems among free speech is more free speech

[@jeffocks793]

Great discussion thanks

[@0532phillipjoy]

Hence the phrase "the right thing to do," coined I think by Boris means "what I think should be done."

[@raithrover1976]

In Johnson's case, the right thing to do will usually involve the selling of grandmothers and carrying on his life's work of detoxifying the name Judas.

[@mango4ttwo635]

The NS is no better with post truth. Banker bailouts and £££ printing has destroyed the value of £, our wages, driven asset prices - including homes - sky high so that ordinary people can no longer afford them. Once those ZIRP policies were in plkace, the working classes should have had non-stop propaganda telling them that if you buy an overpriced home, get a very long (over 15 year( fixed rate. Didn't happen and the social contract broke down looong ago Just as a political project promised some respite, NS was among those trashing it. Frankly, do one!

[@johnmoorefilm]

Dear Armando, just FYI : someone is using comments to phish on Telegram as you (they say : “good comment - contact me directly” …watch out friends…

[@Alisdair_UK]

I also think that people are telling their truths, so yes, truth as a subjective commodity will survive. When a poster lies about the words of a politician, they're painting the politician in a way that demonstrates and justifies how the poster has been made to feel by that politician. So, there is truth apparent in the lie. It's arguable that the issue isn't truth, so much as it is self-awareness.

[@ROSE-mq3qd]

Ironic having the new statesman doing this video…

[@markladley2934]

Ivory towers make the plebs look so pointless!

[@cthoadmin7458]

My only criticism of this podcast. is it was too short! I would have loved to listen to a longer version, where the ideas were expanded.

[@GS44691]

The Social Contract broke down as soon as the likes of Payne and Hobbes premised in on magical thinking and people decided to base their governments upon it.

[@richjones4956]

The Hews are to blame.

[@kinngrimm]

While i wouldn't want it, it may be necessary that lying would result in more severe forms of punishment otherwise there is nothing holding the demagogues back it seems.

[@kinngrimm]

and money for regulatory institutions for social media

[@daveclarke6481]

When did the 'social contract' die? more to the point did it ever exist beyond a theory?

[@albertbrammer9263]

I think Armando regrets the choice of interviewees.

[@howtoappearincompletely9739]

Why do you think that?

[@johnba291972]

Politicians need to start working for the people who support them and give them their power and stop selling that power that is entrusted to them to the highest bidder, period. People might start having a bit of real faith in them then.

[@bertnijhof5413]

The UK the cradle of democracy? In 1568 the United Dutch Provinces declared to be a Republic. And a Dutchman William III did sign your "Bill of Rights", partly because he knew how to work with a parliament. E.g. The Stadtholder William III needed approval and a large budget from the Staten Generaal for his invasion of England with 400 ships and 40,000 men, twice the size of the earlier Spanish Armada :) :).

[@himoffthequakeroatbox4320]

4:15 Is he saying the electoral commission made it up when their investigation found the vote was, to say the least, questionable? And that if it had been binding, it would have been voided?

[@EstevanValladares]

A lot of things now seem to be on the account of people using the "post truth" idea to revert the order of things. Things are today the way they are because of things that happened before, not the opposite. So the "post truth" era was created by the era that preceded it. It is like those things about "life expectancy". Poorer and less "developed" countries today have a longer life expectancy than more developed and rich countries, and why ? People who are living today to their 80s, 90s, and even 100s, they are not leaving to those ages because the last 10 years, but because of the early 30 years of THEIR lives. My mother today is over 70, and she had a lot of medical problems before, which were resolved and she lives better today than many people in their 30s. She lives pretty much the same way she lived when she was herself 30. That is 40 years ago, 1980s. Today, almost everyone I know younger than me, in developed countries, which I am not from, have some type of condition, disease, syndrome, that requires strong and life changing medications. I take just BP medication, half a pill of the lowest dosage, and just because I had a problem earlier in my late 30s that caused it. And it was an accident and not lifestyle caused. What does that have to do with the video ? The World of today is the way it is because of people like CARL SAGAN, like RONALD REAGAN, like BILL GATES (the 80s Bill Gates), and many others, who started what would become a Weapon of Social Destruction when Internet weaponized their minds. The Stalins and Marxs would not get to the place they went if not by the people who used equally dumb reasoning and policy to fight the strawman they made of them. Marx's ideas are only strong because their critics propelled them by blaming them for things they were not involved, and pressing them as rebel fuel. Marx was ridiculed by Socialists and Communists of its time, and Carl Sagan is the man who started to substantiate the now famous assertion that the most famous a scientist is, the less serious they should be taken. Only Internet made him what he is now. The dumb truisms Sagan is propelled with are the flame that started things like Flat Earthers, Ancient Aliens, you name it. That still to this day. It is the critics of Trump that fuel his fame. It is the critics of Socialism that fuel it. It is the "truth tellers" who fuel fake news. It is like a medieval market scale: The heavier you go on one side, the heavier the other side needs to be. Moderation is not something people today want, because they were educated that moderation is wrong. YOu have to have a "saviour", a "hero", a "correct", a "good", and all must be absolute. So they go hard on "Putin" saying he is all that is wrong with the World, so those who like him must put out that those who oppose him are "all that is wrong with the World", and therefore, everyone just gets more radical, stronger, faster and bigger. It is the "MAD" of social media. And with this, there are only losers.

[@LemoUtan]

Authenticity rather than Authority? Hmm. Hitler was sincere. (Yeah, already crossed the Godwin line).

[@robertalenrichter]

Germans actually find boring politicians reassuring, or at least have a high tolerance in this regard, as long as they are perceived as competent. Brandt, Schmidt and Schröder all had a bit of charisma in different ways, but the rest of the country's leaders have been sleeping pills.

[@kronic0961]

I know I'm doing something right when my KZbin algorithm put this on my feed! It's really scary to think about what life will be like for our kids.

[@kelvinpell4571]

you SHOULD be asking what the algorithm is stopping you from seeing. Never forget that You Tube is run and administered by leftists/woke

[@kronic0961]

@@kelvinpell4571 😂 KZbin is owned by Google. Google is big tech. Big tech is mostly unregulated. The "left" want regulation. Google do $70 billion in revenue a quarter. They are most certainly not leftists. As for woke (verb): alert to and concerned about social injustice and discrimination. I'm not sure you actually understand the context that word should be used. Maybe you heard it from your favourite conspiracist and thought it sounded cool, but to be concerned about social injustice is not an insult.

[@kylethompson1379]

True that the professional class are becoming the new working class. And the former working class are being swapped for robots.

[@LuisCarruthers]

And told they are racist by the professional class.

[@ruthmccabe3527]

The professional class are about to be replaced by cheaper imports. It will be bleakly funny to watch...not that there's much else to laugh at these days I suppose....

[@markhughes7927]

And then he woke up!😂

[@itsPenguinBoy]

I think something that felt missing from the discussion was the question of power. Where are the levers of power are in social media? In any other system, be it government, a factory, a transport network, the players have the means to make or break the system. If we want democracy in those systems we can demand it through disobedience. It seems nearly impossible to imagine how that would work with modern social media. But we need to know what to demand. Increasingly the right have demands for how they want social media to work for them, whereas a truly left wing vision for social media is something I have never heard anyone speak of.

[@kelvinpell4571]

?? current social media is the very propaganda tool of the left. Try discussing certain pertinent "issues" on here and watch how quickly they are demonetised, deleted or reported as "hate speech" and your user account is deleted. But you can attack anything deemed right wing in the most violent and graphic terms and somehow, it just gets posted, even promoted.

[@Andrew-rc3vh]

In computing they call it the fitness function "A fitness function is a particular type of objective function that is used to summarise, as a single figure of merit, how close a given design solution is to achieving the set aims. Fitness functions are used in genetic programming and genetic algorithms to guide simulations towards optimal design solutions. "-wiki When voting for Johnson it was how much he made you laugh.

[@Anon-xd3cf]

Unless we can agree from the outset that some people CONSPIRE together to commit crimes and conceal their actions... We cannot have a sensible conversation about economics or politics. Corruption and financial conflicts are abundant in politics and economics and to call inconvenient truths about corruption *"conspiracy theory"* really just makes me wonder what laws YOU might have broken and are trying to cover up.